Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

This is going to be another eyesore of a post.. but there's really no easy way to spell out my thought processes on this. I'm mainly looking for a few outside viewpoints on this stuff.. I'm not looking for any how-tos, not asking anyone to decide for me, etc.

Oh well.. I guess this might be a useful time-killer if you're having a slow day at work. :p


As most of you are aware, I'm trying to restore my '88 LX 5.0 to roadworthiness. Well, it's almost driveable.. but once it is, I'll still have at least one bad set of rings (supposedly on #2) to deal with. It blows oil through the tube connecting the TB to the filler neck.

As you may also be aware, I have no steady large source of income right now.. but, for a change, I have a few things I can sell that should net me several hundred dollars for such a project.. like $600-800, maybe a bit more if I can sell off my credit-farming operation in an online game for a few hundred. (friend of mine got $1000 for all his stuff in the same game.. yes, it's crazy) Anyway, with a buyer for my 351 and a decent auction for this watch I'm about to put up, (the last one like it just sold for $338) I could possibly do something to rectify that engine problem.


I have three choices, really. (four if I decided not to sell the 351W and found a way to use it.. but that eliminates one big source of possible funds for this.. so I'll disregard this for now) First is to find a decent HO in one piece and swap it in. However, I have NO idea what kind of money I should be expecting to pay for one. If it runs over $600-800 for engine and all the necessary goodies, this option is out. However, I know I was just a few hours too late on getting an '86 LSC's HO (along with the rest of the LSC) for $400 OBO.. so perhaps it isn't a budget-breaker.


Second option is to rebuild the SO. Unfortunately, it has 168k miles on it. Summit sells rebuild kits for $269.. here's one example: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FEM%2DMHP174%2D300&N=4294925232+4294919598+4294908331+4294840126&autoview=sku

Note that the link I picked may not be the exact one used.. it's just an example. All the SBF kits I've seen with the hypereutectics have been that same price. Note: It doesn't say for sure in the link to the rebuild kit.. but looking over the Sealed Power piston kits for 5.0s, they seem to all have valve reliefs.

I'd also probably try to junkyard-dive for a complete HO upper intake/EGR spacer/TB setup, and whatever else I could fit into the budget. But the more I think about it, the more the dollar signs start to ring up. (new timing chain, maybe new cam, used HO computer and 19# injectors, etc.)


I can see positives and negatives to both these approaches. Obviously, getting a HO out of some other car gives me instantly more power in one convenient package.. just pull, swap, and part out the donor if it was obtained from a whole-car purchase. However, I'd possibly have a whole new set of problems if that HO wasn't cared for very well. Rebuilding the SO would give me valuable experience with such things.. and I'd have a very good idea of what kind of shape the engine was in.. but it'll still be a warmed-over SO with 168k miles on it. Now, the sheer pursuit of power doesn't mean quite as much to me as it does to the rest of you.. so I could live with an engine somewhere between a SO and a HO.. I mainly just want two fully functioning T-birds in as good of condition as I can manage within and slightly beyond my means.


I left off the third option until last.. because frankly it means the possible death of one of the cars. I could take that money, and try to pick up a third T-bird in town with it, and most likely turn one of the cars (probably my current '88) into a parts car.. try for the "best two out of three" approach, I guess. I have a few possible candidates in mind.. and a friend of mine is always looking out for other Fox T-birds/Cougars for me. Of course, each possibility is also another whole new set of issues.


Whatever I do, I should do it as soon as I can get the money together. I'm concerned that I may have a head gasket issue on that  '86 V6 soon.. and it already leaks oil out the rear main. Having two questionable engines bothers me quite a bit.

(of course, I could always try to put the carbed 351 into that.. I gather converting a CFI car to carbed is easier than EFI to carb, from what I read on the conversion pages)

Dunno if this may have been implied, but perhaps looking into getting a half decent rear-end wrecked mustang from the junk yard would possibly be a good option? :dunno: you'd have all the parts right there in front of you (or side by side for that matter) and you could potentially use all the exhaust stuff, obviously up to the tail pipes, to tide you over till you could fix that part up right. It may actually be as cheap or cheaper, and you would be able to sell the car back to the junk yard for at least a couple bucks, or part it out and sell stuff on ebay from it. Just some food for thought.

Yeah, I mentioned the donor-car possibility up by the part about the LSC I missed out on.

Had I gone to AutoHole one day earlier, and I very well might have, (I put it off because I was sick at the time) this thread would not be here.. 'cause I'd more than likely have found a way to get that LSC. it.

I got my longblock HO motor for $250, intake to oil pan (but no accessories) just look for a mustang board local to you and find guys who have swapped engines, they usually just have to old ones lyin around and want em out of their garage/backyard. if you weren't on the opposite side of the country you could get the old engine out of my mustang, I'm trying to get someone to trade it for a working AOD tho :p
of course, me being 19 and all I'm still in it for the power :D so I'd say get an HO and get rid of the SO. you could always just get a rebuild kit for an HO and swap it in, get some E7 heads (you can probably find some for free or extremely cheap, like $20) and a cam and make your SO a HO. that way you have the experience of rebuilding an engine AND have some more power. sure, you'd need stuff like injectors, computer, mass air meter (maybe, depends on what yr computer you get) and other related parts, but I doubt it would all run you even close to 600-800 bucks

I don't think the rebuild kits I'm looking into are "SO" or "HO" specific. They're just for 5.0s of a certain set of years.. in this case, '82-'95. 9.08:1 CR if you have a 58.2cc head. (quoted roughly from Summit) If I did the rebuild, it would center around that kit and then I'd do everything possible within the budget, in order of effectiveness. In other words, getting a used HO computer, 19# (new or used) injectors, HO cam, and anything else that would have to come as a package for the HO conversion would get priority if it fit within the budget, then the rest (HO upper, EGR spacer, TB) would come if there was enough left.

The stock 155 hp would be fine, as long as the engine is rebuilt to be reliable again. However, if I'm going to rebuild it, I might as well make reasonable efforts to wake it up a bit. The 210 hp of my 351W would've been fine, too.. as would the 225 hp of a HO. Whatever works. I can worry about going faster when I can afford to go faster.

The nice weather is here or at least coming.....Are there any good swap meets around where you are?  You'd be surprised at the prices Mustang guys let there stock pieces go for.

well, if i were you and i couldnt find a 5.0 HO for less than 500 bucks in good running condition, id get the rebuild kit, e7 heads, ho cam or maybe a god used Speed Density cam on ebay(if the rebuild kit has the reliefs in the pistons), SD computer can be had very cheep. id rebuild the SO. basically, stock mustang stuff, as specially the speed density stuff can be easy enough to come by.

id sell off the 351. sure it would be nice to build a windsor but the HO 302 is prety sweet and there are very few 5.0 HO tbirds and cougars out there so its still a slick swap.

i in no way would take the time to pull the SO just to rebuild in stock SO trim. thats alot of work for no performance.

It's already in the 80s here, and I've been sunburned for days now. I was even out working on the cars while I was sick. Yeah, I'd say weather isn't an issue right now. :p

I don't know what's what around here when it comes to stuff like swap meets. I never hear about anything like that. Not saying it doesn't happen, just that I have NO idea if it does. If they did happen, I would guess they'd be up in the Tampa area.. (180 mile round trip) or at least Sarasota (90 mile round trip) or Fort Myers. (~60 mile round trip) I know who I can ask, though.

I probably didn't say it very well.. in fact I'm pretty sure I didn't do a very good job with that part.. but the point I was trying to make is that 155 hp is fine if the engine is reliable. I don't feel it is, with the bad ring set and all on #2. If I went through the trouble of pulling it and buying a bunch of stuff to make it reliable again, I doubt it would go back in with 155 hp. Maybe not 225+, but certainly not 155.

I was thinking the SO kit wouldn't have pistons with valve reliefs
a 351 only makes 210hp? :eek:

It's not a "SO kit". It's a Sealed Power/Fel-Pro kit for 1982-95 5.0s. From what I understand about Sealed Power pistons for 302s, (vs. their pistons for 347 strokers) they all have four valve reliefs in them. It's $269.95 if I want hypereutectics and about a 9:1 CR, and it's $429.95 if I want forged and about a 10:1 CR.

Yes, I believe my 351W was rated 210 hp with a 4v carb on it. It's from a 1987 van. However, the bottom end of the engine was replaced in 1997. From what I understand, new block/crank/pistons/etc. with just the heads and intake stuck back on. Has about 6000 miles on it after the rebuild.

It may have 210 as opposed to the 225 of a 5.0 HO, but it was in a van and probably has gobs of torque on tap by the time you hit 2000 RPM.  It'd be cool to shoehorn that 351 in there, but an HO or the rebuild kit and some HO parts seems to be a lot more economical.


Thanks for rubbin that in. :rolleyes:  I work at night and when I get in my car in the morning there is STILL frost on it.  I cant remember the last time the cold weather hung around up here for this long!  My skin's so white it's blue :giggle:

I think the 4V HO means it's also a roller-cam 351.. at least, that's what I gathered from the last site I was just on, poking around for more info on my 351.

I'd love to use what I have, (the 351) and do it as cheaply as possible.. but one thing I'd rather avoid doing if I can is messing around with the gas tank.. and I'd have to mess around back there to go carbed. Converting the 351 to EFI would break the bank, too. So I'm left with rebuilding the SO closer to a HO, or getting a HO to swap in.

NO roller cam 351s till '94.... no exceptions.. A good HO EFI 5.0 will produce 90% as much low end torque as a carbed 351 and get 30-35% better gas milage.

Headed out to get some voltage readings..

Well, another option may have opened up. Found an 88 Mark I'm going to go back up and look at tomorrow during the day. He wants a little bit much for it, esp. with the air suspension messed up and the back seat trashed.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think I better continue weighing my options for getting the '88 roadworthy. I don't know how this Mark thing will turn out. It's alright, but it didn't exactly knock me off my feet.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, I must now put this talk on hold. I DID get the LSC, which will be chewing up most or all of the money I would've had available for the rebuild. I will now have to settle for figuring out what's keeping the '88 from running when cold and bogging when you stab the pedal when warm, (as seen in my thread in Engine Tech) and just let it ride for now. Thanks for all the feedback.. and if you can think of anything else, please feel free to share it.. might be useful for anyone who is in a similar situation of needing a rebuild or swap and being on a very restrictive budget.. and I will eventually gather the money to do it. It just got moved one notch down the priority list due to the LSC.

Whats the difference/benefit of having forged over hypereutectics? and of course higher cr means more power, correct?

I'm going to let one of the more experienced types around here answer that in detail.

Another question just exactly how hard and how long would it take to rebuild the bottom? and top separately? Trying to be more economically this time around wit me bird and save on alot of the cost, last time around most of my money went to general repairs i could have done, etc.

the hypereutectic pistons fail under forced induction/boost. other than that i doubt theres too much of a differance other than they may fail easier inder high rpm use or detonation. forged basically means the pistons material is actually dansor and therefore more durable.

more compression generally means more power but with that comes a "harder" running engine. deffinetly a too much of a good thing can be a bad thing type of deal. EXAMPLE compression id good but overcompression/high compression and boost = kaboom...of course, there are a ton of dynamics and aspects of engine building that i barely understand myself. thats why head, pistons, crank/stroke, cam choice must be chosen to work well together and thoroughly researched.

as far as building a bottom end that depends on experiance. also depends on what kind of supprises you happen upon disassembly of the long block. check the engine out, or have someone check it out for you. at least do a compression test. inspect for leaks that need to be fixed. basically if all the cylinders are good and the motor runs good there may be plenty of life left in the short block. the 5.0 is pretty tough. if your pulling it out of the car anyway, maybe a teardown would be just the thing if you have the time. i wouldnt get into that if you dont have to. the stock bottom end is good for quite abit of HP....