Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: Beau on November 07, 2009, 09:09:21 PM
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 07, 2009, 09:09:21 PM
Not too sure that I didn't pinch a wire or perhaps pull a wire out of a connector when I removed the column to hang the pedals in.
The fuel pump is energized as soon as the battery cables are hooked up, as is the keyless. This is regardless of ignition switch position.
First off, I'm going to drop the column again, and inspect for a problem. Any ideas on other things to check? I don't have a test light light, but can get one...I don't have a multimeter, but would love one.
The only thing I've done is take out the power seats, as the motors weren't working (related, I wonder..) and put in manual pedals, and swap dashes. I don't have the climate control, stereo, prem. sound, or system sentry connected, and I haven't taken any wiring out of the car. Ideas?
Thanks in advance :D
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 07, 2009, 11:15:19 PM
Edit:
Every connector was accounted for and hooked up accordingly. Fuel pump kicks on when A. key is off, and pos. battery cable is hooked up to battery. and B. key is off, and dimmer switch is pulled.
When key is on, neither battery being connected, nor dimmer switch activate f/p.
When pos. battery cable is hooked up, illuminated entry and keyless entry stay lit up, until cable is undone. The ignition switch does nothing, no click, no start, nothing.
I grounded the required ground wires, plugged in the system sentry, still the same symptoms. To my understanding, the ignition is not getting any power with the key on on or start, but the fuel pump will only click on with the key in off. This baffles me, then again, car electronics are far from my strong point. I've got the '88 EVTM, but an idiot can still only get so far even with a road map. :hick:
I really have no clue wtf to do next. Put the mechanicals in my white car, and go with it? I'm just feeling that frustrated with the Sport right now. Nobody to blame though...my idea and doing to gut the interior before I even had the thing running.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 01:50:45 AM
what a goat screw:mad:
Quote from: FordTruckFreeek;297989
Edit:
Every connector was accounted for and hooked up accordingly. [COLOR="black"] fair enough[/COLOR]
Fuel pump kicks on when A. key is off, and pos. battery cable is hooked up to battery. ok,,fuel pump is getting power and the EEC relay would be the power delivery guy. therefore the eec relay is getting a ground supplied to it in conflict with its original design.
and B. key is off, and dimmer switch is pulled. oh really? that would be another relay giving the fuel pump a ground or back feeding the eec relay somehow. wtf?
When key is on, neither battery being connected, nor dimmer switch activate f/p. that is fine, no battery means no power. Seems like this option fixes the problem. One problem is you need a battery:hick:
When pos. battery cable is hooked up, illuminated entry and keyless entry stay lit up, until cable is undone. ok,, thats another relay getting a ground.
The ignition switch does nothing, no click, no start, nothing. ok, thats an open. starter relay little red wire.
I grounded the required ground wires, plugged in the system sentry, still the same symptoms. To my understanding, the ignition is not getting any power with the key on on or start, but the fuel pump will only click on with the key in off. This baffles me, then again, car electronics are far from my strong point. I've got the '88 EVTM, but an idiot can still only get so far even with a road map. :hick:
I really have no clue wtf to do next. Put the mechanicals in my white car, and go with it? I'm just feeling that frustrated with the Sport right now. Nobody to blame though...my idea and doing to gut the interior before I even had the thing running. you gutted the interior?
ill get you a list of probable faults after you reply to the last bullet. If you did gut the interior, man we might be doing this for a while to nail down the problem.
I am going to make a guesstimation that somewhere near the fuse panel, some wires are touching or something. if you gutted the entire car, then without it being placed in someone elses hands who is in to these cars and good with electrical, your fugged.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 08, 2009, 01:53:39 AM
when I say I gutted the interior, I mean the seats were replaced, dash, and carpet...lol, did not mean to convey that i was working with a bare shell! :rollin:
The meaning of that was to indicate that I possibly may have pinched a wire, or left something undone.
:D
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 01:54:28 AM
by the way, you do have a test light,
any bulb socket with harness can be made into your migical test light.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 01:56:25 AM
Quote from: FordTruckFreeek;298007
when I say I gutted the interior, I mean the seats were replaced, dash, and carpet...lol, did not mean to convey that i was working with a bare shell! :rollin:
The meaning of that was to indicate that I possibly may have pinched a wire, or left something undone.
:D
ok,, i am looking through my evtm now.... i will start on the power delivery to the eec relay.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 08, 2009, 01:58:51 AM
hey man, any ideas or hints on what to look for...i owe you a cold one!
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 02:06:50 AM
another resource http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f162/jcassity_bucket/ ie- "forward to public link"
another link to shop manuals I have been scanning for the past 6 months off and on will be posted soon. several thousand pages.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 02:07:40 AM
Quote from: FordTruckFreeek;298011
hey man, any ideas or hints on what to look for...i owe you a cold one!
no shot gunning,,, just facts so i wont speculate , brb
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 02:57:08 AM
with batt connected and no key inserted, what happens?
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 08, 2009, 03:03:09 AM
if the key is off, and I hook the bat cable, the fuel pump primes for a second or two. if the key is on, the f/p does nothing when bat is connected.
also, with bat cable hooked up, but key in off, or even pulled out, pulling the dimmer stalk will make the f/p prime...and it does it every time the stalk is pulled, as well. with key on, the dimmer flashes the lights.
but if it's just sitting there, cable on, key off, it does nothing on it's own, save for the illuminated entry staying lit up.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 03:05:31 AM
Quote from: FordTruckFreeek;298015
if the key is off, and I hook the bat cable, the fuel pump primes for a second or two. if the key is on, the f/p does nothing when bat is connected.
also, with bat cable hooked up, but key in off, or even pulled out, pulling the dimmer stalk will make the f/p prime...and it does it every time the stalk is pulled, as well. with key on, the dimmer flashes the lights.
but if it's just sitting there, cable on, key off, it does nothing on it's own, save for the illuminated entry staying lit up.
doest the above bold answer my question? TMI,,, just trying to keep it simple.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 03:29:10 AM
did you happen to reinstall fuses at any recent point?
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 08, 2009, 03:33:36 AM
no sir
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 03:51:38 AM
ok here's the dealio,,,
either you bridged a fuse across two separate fuse positions bonding two separate circuits which may or may not be possible.......
or......
you have a harness female end plugged up to an incorrect male end connector.
Pink /orange wire comes up common to illuminated entry and flasher.
Light green / yellow comes up common in illumiated entry and keyless entry.
yellow is incoming power to the fuese panel.
your culpert is probably the flash to pass circuit and if you follow that harness out, there is prob a conflict in color code at the relay or a connector near by.
usually when you hook the wrong shiznit up to the wrong shiznit, bad shiznit comes out of the good shiznit.
you are going to have to go through your smaller connectors first or at the least, see if you have a harnes pinched that is associated with the flash to pass cirucit.
somehow, the eec relay is getting a ground though that means. Thats teh only way the fuel pump can run in this conditon. I really dont feel like it has a whole lot to do with the ign sw at this time although it cold be and would be my first and least expensive option for replacement.
I would not be a bit surprised if you said the fuel pump came on with....... key out horn depressed if so,
its almost acting like the ign switch is plugged up wrong. with the key off, you should not get a running fuel pump. Its like the internals of the sw are bass akwards.
again, start at the column, somehow i remember when i was in there last that there were two connectors that i also questioned but i may be wrong.
no answer directly at this time. Focus on the flash to pass circuit and ign sw for now. I would also focus on a "Hot at all times" power sources as the power delivery to the fault.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 03:56:40 AM
also, did any wires sneak out on you and you had to re-install the wire into a connector?
does anyone know if any of our relays are "normally closed"? just from my experience, it seems they are all normally open.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 08, 2009, 04:31:29 AM
tomorrow when I get back to it, I'll check into the flash to pass circuit.
you're correct that there's two connectors in the column. Good possibility that a wire might be pulled out of a connector. I'll also double check to make sure the ign switch connector isn't in backwards, or if it can even be plugged in backwards. Right now, I'm so tired, I cant recall what it even looks like lol
Thanks:bowdown: for giving me a drection to go in tracking this down :D:D:D
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Thunder Chicken on November 08, 2009, 06:49:57 AM
Try unplugging the ignition switch. They're known problems in these cars, and if it's shorted "on" it might give you issues like you describe...
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 01:07:44 PM
now, back to your other thread,,,
how in the world did your car run without an EEC relay installed.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 08, 2009, 01:28:55 PM
The first time, I lowered the column, and then put pedals in, and t5, that was the stock engine.
Later on, when i started getting fired up to the engine swap, I went ahead pulled the dash, because I had intended on swapping engine harnesses, and heater boxes. I guess that was when the relay must've gotten pulled. Things were left undone for awhile, and when I started reassembly, I overlooked 'em. It hasn't run since then :mad: But now that I have an idea of what to look for...maybe maybe maybe...
Typical of me to do things the long way, but never let be said I don't learn from my mistakes lol
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 08, 2009, 01:55:48 PM
one way to prevent this in the future is to take pics as you go along.
that way no matter how much time passes , you have pics to refer back to of how things were.
Title: edit
Post by: Beau on November 08, 2009, 02:48:04 PM
ok, I pulled the fuse in position 18, which is the flash to pass circuit, along with a few others, and then, with key off, the fuel pump doesn't prime. I'm going to check the relay and all the connections/wiring I can find for the flash to pass circuit(s).
For some reason, unrelated, I think, the ignition switch does nothing at all.
Edit: (this pertains to the ign switch not powering the ignition) I'm not sure what a bad fusible link looks like, the EVTM says they appear blistered, but I'm not sure what to look for, so here's a couple pics of the worst one. I also can't find the wire's color in the book, it's black/red...but it's connected to the starter relay on driver's inner fender. pics: (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l110/fordtruckfreeek/vehicle%20pics/1988%20Sport/102_0353.jpg)
if this is what's wrong with the engine not cranking with the key in start, what's the proper way to fix the fusible link? Or is this described in the EVTM?
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Haystack on November 08, 2009, 05:00:26 PM
First check resistance through it with a volt meter. If the resistance is good, there is no reason to replace it. I once put my battery in backwards, it blew all the links. I just got a new set at a junkyard.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 08, 2009, 06:19:02 PM
The covering is a soft rubber... Just give each one a moderate tug, if it stretches like a rubber band, it's bad...
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 09, 2009, 02:56:30 AM
The fuel pump relay was the wrong ed one. On a hunch, I pulled it, looked at the terminals on the relay and the connector, and saw that the relay didn't have one, while the connector did. I found the one that goes in there, popped it in, hit the dimmer switch, and no pump priming.
Now I can start the engine at the solenoid, but not by turning the key, however, the key will shut the engine off. The ONLY wire I took off the solenoid was the power cable to the starter, as the stocker was frayed out at the bracket that bolts to the corner of the engine block.
It started before with the SO and the T5 and pedals in, but not now, since I've swapped the dash in. No neutral safety hooked up to the clutch pedal, either.
I did a little research on the switch recall ordeal...the number on the switch in the car starts with F2...after 6 inches or so, the wires all have a weird connector, and heatshrink with what appears to be some kind of glue in them...would this be one that got fixed, per the recall?
btw, thanks again Scott, and Tom and everybody for the suggestions, and help. Very appreciated!
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 09, 2009, 09:24:16 AM
The F2xxxxx switch is the replacement one... If the connector was burned from the orig sw overheating, it may well have been replaced...
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 11, 2009, 04:54:30 AM
do you have the little red wire slip on boot dealio on the starter relay?
that will prevent cranking.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 12, 2009, 02:00:30 AM
Sure do...everything is connected as should be...I don't get it.
If you have anymore things I could check...well, we'll call it 2 cold ones I owe ya! ;)
(course, you ever get to missouri, just about halfway between st jo, and hannibal, on 36, I'll buy you those beers for real lol)
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 12, 2009, 02:11:42 AM
tell us all about the red / light blue wire in the column:evilgrin:
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 12, 2009, 02:15:06 AM
Ok, what's up with it? lol
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: jcassity on November 12, 2009, 02:51:55 AM
follow it from the start postiion of the schematic below up to the starter solenoid.
you say the little red boot is on at the solenoid, so obviously its a good possibility its not connected in the column/dash somewhere.
Title: no spark but fuel pump, keyless pad always on **solved**
Post by: Beau on November 12, 2009, 03:19:47 AM
I think I know where my problem lies...I'll go check it out when I get up later..about my bedtime here in a few.
Probably a good thing I've made double- sure the tranny is in neutral the 3-4 times I've had it running...rather sure I bypassed the safety switch. Then again, there's no driveshaft in yet ;)
I'll let ya know tomorrow if I have time to look at it...have to go to town early before to run some errands.