So yeah. I was out weighing the costs and stuff and desided on a 351w swap. I found a 96 F-250 5.8L engine for cheap. So I will start there.
Now what do you recomend for a cam and intake? I will stay with the stock E7 heads for now but I should change the cam out. Plus what is a good intake for all round street use? Is 70mm to big for a TB?
Thanks
Everything works together as one --- Heads, cam intake, exhaust, etc....
That being said what are you looking to get out of the vehicle?
Projected power?
How high are you willing to/want go on the redline?
E7's will be a bottleneck on ANY performance oriented 351 IMHO.....They're barely adequate on a stock/near stock 302...
I agree stock heads are really your limiting factor. Are you going carb or fuel injection?
Since he was asking about a 70mm TB...;)
As far as intakes for a 351wl, not so many to choose from, unless you're willing to spend a few $.
Mostly depends on your budget, and what power you want it to produce.
I don't know without looking at what's available now what there is in the way of intakes systems for a 351 in a car..there's the Lightning stuff, (GT40) but the lowers IIRC are hard to find..I've not looked for 351 stuff for some time now.
Where you already have a 302, a 5.8 makes perfect sense. You should be able to use alot of your fuel injection existing. I would go with the biggest throttle body you can find for a price you can live with. As far as intake goes, I'd use a "carb" style intake with efi bungs machined in. I think now a days they have them already to go for efi. You can put and elbow on it for the throttle body and have a stock location for the throttle cables.
While you got it all apart, I would definately look for some better parts. i would use a stock H.O. cam. Won't beat the HP per dollar there, and i would at least go for some gt-40's. Or even bigger if you have a few bucks to throw around.
You got me there...my point was that it might be cheaper to build a carbed motor.
I hate carbed motors. I leave them for offroading.
I want fuel injection. I know this sounds wierd but I may cheap out for now. If I get a 5.8L engine I may just use the BC Bronco's HO upper to 5.8L lower adapter, BBK headers, swap oil pan, A9L and mass air meter, H pipe and cat back, and get it all up and running. Then I can go for the bigger stuff like H/C/I and all the other stuff.
I have drivin the car with the Non HO 302 and it is underpowered and just plain sucks. Even a stock 88 TC has way more power than this car.
Go with a built and or stroked 5.0 and then you'll have no worries finding parts at all,and you can get tons of power from them as well..
a long time ago, you and i talked about this "power" topic with respect to the 302 and i wondered if you had a chance to look at the main bearing caps and how..
if.. new main caps were made, could'nt they be made to a 4 bolt style with the added two holes drilled in the block.
this wouldnt work on the front/rear caps but would along the middle.
Sick88Tbird put an EFI 351w in his car...he could give you some tips probably...here's his 5.8 thread: http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=24234
Oh, heya Scott:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9085 ;)
Christmas is coming up...buy me one? lol
Neat link for the 351 swap. Very interesting reading. Makes me want to think of what my next project will be.
yeah,,, :D
i was just commenting on how much meat is there to add the modified caps. its been a while since ive been in the bottom end of a motor, i remember there being a lot of space there for a wider cap.
They're beefier than a king-size slim jim lol
the stock blocks generally crack from the main bearing studs/bolts all the way through the lifter valley. The problem isn't necisairly from holding the crank down, its the thickness of the block all the way through.
if you build a 351w and you use 302 parts you will make 302 power..I am building a 351w 408 stroker this winter as well..if you want to know anything let me know...if can help I will...
Outside of some heads and cams, not much will interchange between 5.0 and 5.8's anyway, but i do agree that to make a windsor sit up and bark like a real mean dog, you gotta spend a few bucks.
put in a sprint car spec 358 v8, they are selling the left overs to racers lol 800 hp!!!
302 parts on a 351 doesn't necessarily mean you'll make 302 power. However, I spent a lot of time in porting the 5.8 truck/van lower intake, the BC Broncos adapter and I ended up cutting open my HO upper plenum to work it over real nice.
I just took down a bolt-on '96 LT1 Firebird Formula the other night with my set-up...and every last part under my hood is either a junk-yard find or a left over...you can even re-use the front end accessory drive if you cut one water pump stud down.
But, I'm also running a set of ported Cobra GT40's that have been milled down to 59cc's combined with my "street/strip" port job. My cam is a super mild grind that is supposed to be SD friendly, so I'm suprised it's still making power at 4500+ rpm.
I've got lots of good tricks and tips for doing things on the super cheap if you've got the tools/time/ability.
Good luck,
Don
Don, that cam you have listed in your sig SHOULD pull at that RPM and a little bit more judging from the specs listed for it on the Summit website.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-444232?part=CRN-444232&autoview=sku
Should actually work VERY well with the other parts you have listed. Like I said; everything works together.
Yeah that cam is a bit too mild for what I'm looking to do though...I got it with the intention of staying SD and it ran pretty nice before the MAF swap but I wanted more out of it.
I think it's a great cam for a daily driver and it makes a ton of torque, but the wide LSA and short duration@.050" keeps it from performing well in the 4k+ range.
At the track last night it couldn't really pull much past 4800....and at 5100-5200rpm I could feel it start to break up a little so I think an ignition upgrade is in order...as well as replacing the stock HO throttle body...lol.
-Don
Don do you have good springs on those heads??? You could be flirting with valve flutter/float...
I'm running a stock ign system with a Crane PS 91 coil, mine will pull hard all the way to rev limiter(6400 with the nitrous chip)... I have dual springs on the TF heads good for .600 lift...
The extra cubes of a 351 will make that cam seem smaller and the peak power RPM will be lower than if it were in a 302.
I too run a stock ignition setup (I use an MSD coil) and have no issues. My WOT shifts occur right at the 6000 mark.
Tom makes a very valid point. The stock GT-40 springs are good for a decent amount of lift but the spring rate and pressure at full open might be lacking -- especially on a spring that's seen some long miles.
I doubt it's valve float, I bought the recommended springs for the cam and set them up to the correct installed height and pressures. That cam is specifically listed for the 351 so I don't think its an issue of a 302 cam not running up to advertised RPM in a larger engine.
I don't know, I'm running Autolite 764's gapped @ .044" and it ran great in warmer weather, but it's getting a little lazy in the cold. I just picked up a set of Autolite platinums one range hotter and I'll probably gap them down to .040". The dist. cap and rotor(of unknown age and origin) could probably stand to be replaced also. I am certain that it is something ignition related as richening it up just made it slightly worse. A stock temp thermostat might even make a little bit of a difference....20-25* cooler cylinder head temps might be affecting it a bit more in the colder weather.
Maybe I should stop hi-jacking this guys thread with my own ...lol.
Good luck to the OP,
Don
He's all over the net asking the same questions that could be had with a 5 second search just about anywhere, So I think your okay.
I have got most of the parts now. Just down to a few small things and I can start doing a swap.
Sick88Tbird: Did you use the stock 302 mounts from your sport? Or did you go custom?
The stock mounts will physically fit...but they can't even hold up to the 165hp SO....I HIGHLY recommend a set of ChuckW's mounts...he sells 'em at a great price and it's a part that'll last forever(unless you live in the rust belt maybe).
Good luck,
Don
Where do I find these mounts?
From a member of these forums, he may even be in the vendors section, I'm not sure...user name is "ChuckW".
Thanks
So I had the usual breaking of the bolts in the heads from the front of the intake. So I am thinking of removing the heads and drilling 2 broken intake bolts and one broken exhaust bolt. Well I just found a set of GT40 X heads for sale. I wonder if I should not waste my time.
Definitely would be the best time to replace the heads. If it's within the budget, I would say go for it.
Good luck,
Don
If your going to get new heads, and you want the car to move okay, I would save up for some slightly better heads. The gt-40X's are a mile above stock, but the 5.8 needs more air then a 302.
But for the price of GT x heads............They are way better so I was thinking what the hell. And for the price I was going to do some porting. Wake them up a bit. But now what intake? Pro Products, Edelbrock, Trick flow, Ford lightning?
If your going to get work done on them, like porting/new valves and machine shop stuff, you could probably buy NEW aluminum heads for around the same price. If you do a search you will know what intake to run, and if your going through the effort of changing heads, you might as well get rid of the truck cam shaft. Honestly, you would be better off with a 302 if your going to only use stock parts and not really upgrade.
If you stuck with a 347 ot 363 stroker, with all things being equal between that and the 5.8, the stroker would out run the 5.8, or at least should. As well as being cheaper for virtally every part.
The 5.8 uses larger main bearings that will just slow the motor down compared to a 302.
For the lightning intake, your looking at $400 as a good price for a lightning lower and a cobra upper. You could buy a new cobra setup for less then just the lower.
No . I am just going to so some bowl and minor porting. Not anything radical. An I am not using the truck cam. Its gone in favor of a 95 GT cam with 1.7 Rockers. I may look at the TFS 1 cam but not sure how that will work. Then I have to figure out an intake for the car. I was looking at the knock off Edelbrock.
Oh and when it comes to the stock 88 5.0L in the car and the 5.8L that I am going to put in it..........the 5.8L is a huge upgrade.
If I were going to spend close to $1000 on heads, I would just save another 4-500 for a good set. Seriously though, you will need to open it up and put bigger and better stuff on there then a 302, otherwise, there is no real reason to "upgrade" to a 351.
So now I have the heads ported. I just need to send them off to get the deck resurfaced. I got a TF stage one cam to be put in and a 351w typhoon intake with a 70mm tb. I hope after christmas to be bolting it all up.
Haystack:
If I were going to spend close to $1000 on heads, I would just save another 4-500 for a good set. Seriously though, you will need to open it up and put bigger and better stuff on there then a 302, otherwise, there is no real reason to "upgrade" to a 351
Haystack. I have a question. What kinda of engine am I building up for my car? You seem to know what I am building and it does not seem to be what I want to build. You tell me that a 351 is not a a good upgrade if I am not puting "good" parts (302) on the engine? That a stroker 347 or 363 is a better way to go? Well for your info the car is for cruising in the spring/summer. Not a drag car or not a high HP/TQ race car. Just a street car. With my choise of heads and cams and parts, this car should put close to 340hp with 420tq. Yeah, your right, that is not really an upgrade from a 302 that put 140 hp and 200 tq. And the engine slowing down because it has bigger mains then a 302?!?!? What the hell? You are going on about race engines.....I SAID STREET CRUISING. I have been on a few other sites and there are some dip shiznits that keeps saying, "302 parts on a 351w makes 302 horsepower !" Well Most of the 351w parts are 302 parts. Hell a stock 351w F4TE engine with gt X heads and E303 cam makes 350 hp From FRPP.Thats seems pretty impressive to me with 302 parts.
Sorry. I had to say something because it is a broken record everytime I ask questions about 351w swaps. Nobody askes me what my goals are, just that I am doing it wrong. So far with engine included, I have spent $1000. Thats it. Thousand bucks will get me a nice engine with twice the torque/horsepower than the stock 5.0L engine in the car now. Seems to me like a good move on my part.
Yes they may have larger mains, but that doesn't mean that they slow an engine down......funny, I had a 69' mustang fastback w/ a 351W bored .030 over that idled like it was barely running @ 1200, I drag raced the car and it was shifted at 7000 rpm. Hmmmmm didn't seem to me that it was slowed down any by the bigger mains. I know that 86caprirs's car is for the street and won't be seeing that kind of abuse, but get real dude. I wish I still had that car :punchballs:
k, lets look at it this way. Lets pretend everything was equal between a 347 and a 351. Same heads exhaust car everything. The 351 should be slower.
And to the OP, it is your motor, and it is your car. Do what ever you want with it. If your going to choke the 351, there is no reason to upgrade. Yes the truck 351's used the E7 heads. It also made 210hp and 315lb of torque. Alot better off then the mustang, with a much larger engine huh? That is with a worse cam, but it is suposedly built for torque.
gt-40's are better then the stock heads. No doubt about it there, but if your going to spend all the extra money on them, and for close to the same price, you can get good heads, why waste the money?
And about the whole 340hp, its just a number. You could have 500hp and still have a slow car compared to another car that has 400hp.
But hey, its your money, your motor. I will not post here again if it will please you.
The 347 and the 351w cannot be compared. Again, you are dealing with a stroker kit in a 302.
How am I choking the 351w? You are looking at a high HP engine again. I want torque. For what I paid for the heads cam and 1.7 RR is nothing compared to a new better head. TF heads are $1200.Thats twice what I paid with everything I got above. I guess your vision of a 351w and mine are way different...I get that but you have to sit there and tell me I am wrong with everything I am doing? I am happy with what I am doing. Thats all that matters to me. I want my car to stay street car and not a car that is going to be only drivin on weekends from pump to pump. 400+ ft pounds of torque is just fine with me. I think it may be a little too much but I can accept it.
Hey man, sounds like you got a good setup going. I've seen untouched "X" heads go over 460hp on a 393W...You'll have plenty of room with those. Bearing speed in a street car is almost a non-issue...yeah, in an endurance race engine, it'll become an issue. A 363(302 based) stroker isn't better for the street than a 351, not in a million years...gee, lets see here....spend over $2,600 for an aftermarket siamesed block, or get a good running 351 or even overhaul a 351 and be almost $2k ahead of the game.
You're gonna have a real runner when you're all done man, ignore Haystack, when it comes to engines he just spews what some backwards schmoe-bag wrote on some kiddy forum. They love throwing big technical points out as a down-side when it is completely irrelevant...lol.
Good luck,
Don
thanks sick. I kinda figured that because I have seen and heard the same thing on other sites too. Like a broken record.