General => General Fox T-Bird/Cougar Discussion => Topic started by: Dougy_Fresh on September 19, 2009, 12:16:17 AM
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on September 19, 2009, 12:16:17 AM
putting a cam in a speed density car without idle surge and poor driveability.
i just put a b303 in my car with a HO computer and it idles perfect. i guess this is just another thing that makes my car a freak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJS_X3r0eWU
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on September 19, 2009, 12:17:47 AM
and yes i know my car needs to be washed
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Masejoer on September 19, 2009, 01:08:57 PM
Sounds good. I didn't see any benefit from the mass air swap so I doubt you're missing much there. All my sensors were working correctly to begin with though.
I've only washed my car like 3 times over the last 3 years as it looks better hiding some flaws in the paint. I didn't wash it any of those - it's always shops.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: CoogarXR on September 19, 2009, 04:41:09 PM
I had a low miles 85 LTD LX 5.0 HO with CFI, the body rotted in half. I took that block/heads/cam and swapped it under my speed density system in my old 87 XR-7. Ran fine. I don't know what cam was in that LTD-LX from the factory. At the time I didn't know anything other than "it fits, so it's gotta work!", heh. It ran way better than the stock block (stock block had 167k miles on it, and 2psi oil pressure though...)
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: RoyLPita on September 19, 2009, 07:15:30 PM
Let us know how it runs on the road in comparison to what it was before.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 19, 2009, 10:57:46 PM
Quote from: Dougy_Fresh;291741
putting a cam in a speed density car without idle surge and poor driveability.
i just put a b303 in my car with a HO computer and it idles perfect. i guess this is just another thing that makes my car a freak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJS_X3r0eWU
I've definitely had a py idle ever since going to aftermarket cam+19# injectors+AFPR+65mm TB. I've learned to keep one foot on the brake one one on the gas when I'm stopped and the engine is still cold to stay above idle. I tried asking my mechanic to switch it to mass-air and he couldn't figure out how to make it work.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on September 19, 2009, 11:08:34 PM
look up mass air conversions for fox body mustangs and its exactly the same. are you also running a HO computer? if not the injectors are probably screwing you all up. that and your firing order is probably way off sync with your injectors.
it runs great down the road by the way. i'm going to putting flowmasters on it soon with either 2.5" pipes with no crossover or a 2.5" h-pipe, not sure yet. also putting on a ported out factory intake as soon as i finish it and redoing my CAI because it's pretty ghetto and probably hurting flow some. i'm debating on putting 3.45's in it or just going ahead and stepping up to 4.10's because i know i'm going to end up doing it anyways.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 19, 2009, 11:13:16 PM
Nope, I'm running the stock '87 SO computer. I don't know what cam is in it...maybe an 86 HO cam? The car runs fine above idle, it just idles py. When I get a chance I want to check my plugs again. They're only about a year old, but the idle was super-smooth for a few months after I put them in.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on September 19, 2009, 11:14:08 PM
firing order still stock or did you/your mechanic change it to the HO firing order?
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 19, 2009, 11:27:10 PM
I'd have to check (it's at the shop so I can't check now). I thought there are aftermarket 5.0 cams that keep the stock firing order. Isn't the 86 HO cam the same firing order?
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on September 19, 2009, 11:30:37 PM
as far as i know all 5.0 HO's use the 351w firing order. they do make cams that keep the stock firing order but they are pricey and there arent many grinds available i dont think.
if the one you have is for an HO though you definately need an HO computer and HO firing order for it to run right. i have basically the same setup as you (unless you have a monsterous cam) and mine runs perfect.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Old_Paint on September 20, 2009, 01:21:53 AM
Something just dawned on me about the SD and lopey cam topic. I read this post earlier, and didn't give it much more thought, other than being jealous of a 5.0 in a Bird. I was reading something else about SD systems over on SBFTech, and it twigged this message in my head.
Most of the surging erratic idle problem with SD's and aggressive cams are due to intake vacuum pulses driving the MAP bonkers. I've read about that THOUSANDS of times, just looking for one differing opinion from someone with SD experience. That said, in most applications where it's a big issue, the MAP is connected by rigid plastic tube directly to the intake, with very little rubber hose, and the lack of one other little component that I noticed on our Fox body cars. The 6 feet of rubber tubing between the intake and the MAP on our cars will absorb a lot of the pulsations caused by radical cams. But, if you look under the washer reservoir, there's a nifty little vacuum reservoir teed into the line going to the MAP. I haven't checked the EVTM yet, but as I recall, that one has no check valve either. That little reservoir will act as a fairly decent filter (called an accumulator in the pneumatics circles) to smooth intake vacuum ripple caused by aggressive cams, to some extent anyway. I've never seen that reservoir in the MAP circuit on anything except our Fox body cars, but I can't say I've really looked for it either. I just know that the MAP on my 5.0 truck is about 18 inches away from the intake and is piped with very rigid plastic tubing with a much larger diameter ID. NO FILTERING at all. Of further note, there is NO DIFFERENCE in the MAP for a 3.8 and a 5.0. They ARE interchangeable. I've done it.
I don't know how aggressive a B303 is as opposed to the RV cam everyone recommends for the SD system in 5.0 equipped trucks. On the other hand, I have to wonder about the ill effects of that "filter" being there, and how much lag it's going to cause in the MAP signal, and if that indeed would ever be noticeable or critical. Then again, I have to wonder if this isn't why our 3.8L is such a gutless wonder when smaller displacement engines now turn out more than double the horsepower and torque.
I run a pretty wicked cam in my VW, and based on experience, it ain't just electronic systems that have big issues with big cams. I have a Weber progressive 2bbl on the bug, that runs like poopy on the cam I have now. This one is only slightly more aggressive than the one I had before, but I must have crossed a line on the Weber with it. The carb's going for rejetting soon.
My point here, is that there certainly appears to be a solution for SD systems to tolerate a decent cam and the loping idle that comes with it. The OP may have just enlightened us.
I may have just come up with another experiment to try on a stock setup to see how it affects a 5.0 by adding that accumulator.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 20, 2009, 02:14:58 AM
Interesting...sort of like adding a capacitor to smooth out signal noise :hick:
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on September 20, 2009, 09:52:07 AM
my MAP line comes straight off the intake and goes to the sensor, about 9 inches of reinforced rubber fuel hose. i have no vacuum lines except the FPR, MAP, and brake booster. the tree has been eliminated.
my brother has been thinking about adding an extra vacuum canister to see if it would smooth out the idle a bit on his F303 equipped 88 mustang. i personally fully intend to upgrade to MAF when a 90mm MAF housing and the other parts i need make themselves known at a super cheap price that i simply cannot turn down. i know that 90mm is to big for my current setup, but i do not want to have to buy parts twice. this car MAY end up turbocharged, and if not it will be putting out about 400hp at the crank N/A in about 6 months, so i will need the larger MAF housing at that point either way.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: CatCarMan2012 on September 20, 2009, 04:18:37 PM
If you add a vacuum container, it would probably have a negative effect on throttle response.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on September 21, 2009, 09:52:39 PM
never thought of that. i am going to make the t-bird a purpose built drag car. i'm picking up a fox body mustang project to make my DD. stang will have an HO 5.0 with CFI induction and a t5 with 3.73 gears.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Old_Paint on September 21, 2009, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: danzajax;291933
If you add a vacuum container, it would probably have a negative effect on throttle response.
Being the 'proud owner' of TWO 3.8's with TBI's, and that silly little reservoir down near the MAP, I'll certify the throttle response issue. I've always noticed a slight lag from throttle change to actual response. (Not that I was expecting something neck breaking, just a response, please). I bought one of the two I have brand new in December '85, and from day dot, it's had that lag. Not a huge lag, but a lag, nonetheless. If you take the breather cover off and snap the throttle, it sort of sounds like a cat coughing up a fur ball, then it starts to wind up. If you snap it quick enough and let go, about all you get is some grumbling in the exhaust from the AIR when it dumps a load of air in there to take care of the unspent fuel the O2's just sniffed out. Little if any change in RPM. IMHO, that would be that little "filter" hard at work. EEC senses throttle position change and dumps the fuel in there, but the MAP doesn't really sense the quick drop in vacuum before it's restored. That's my theory, anyway. Maybe Ford was hiding something else on the 3.8?
I was used to instantaneous response from carbed engines with standard ignitions. There is a lag, certainly, and the filter will only make it worse if there wasn't one there before, particularly on the larger intakes if the 5.0 is MFI, not TBI. The TBI was a great idea to get rid of pumping losses from old Motorcraft 2150 2bbl technology, but please note it was VERY short lived. I wonder why?
But, if you want something to take care of the pulses at idle, the "filter" should do the trick, and probably won't have a super huge effect, obviously depending on how large you make it, and will still give ya something to respect. Gotta remember, this little reservoir is not quite as large as a tuna can in diameter, but slightly taller. My guess would be about the same volume as a small can of tuna. HINT: Take the tuna out before using the can for a filter.
I'll have to post a photo of what I refer to. Right now, though, I'd need hip waders. Its VERY wet here after nearly 7 inches of rain in the past three days. Lemme check the EVTM, though .... (Thanks again, jcassity) I'd be interested to see the differences in the vacuum setup for the 5.0 and 3.8 TBI systems.
(UPDATE) Just checked the EVTM, and no, it doesn't show the nifty little VRES near the MAP. Doesn't even show the MAP except the electrical portion at the EEC. I know I've seen that diagram somewhere ......
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 23, 2009, 04:41:48 PM
Quote from: Quietleaf;291834
I've definitely had a py idle ever since going to aftermarket cam+19# injectors+AFPR+65mm TB. I've learned to keep one foot on the brake one one on the gas when I'm stopped and the engine is still cold to stay above idle. I tried asking my mechanic to switch it to mass-air and he couldn't figure out how to make it work.
Quote from: Quietleaf;291841
Nope, I'm running the stock '87 SO computer. I don't know what cam is in it...maybe an 86 HO cam? The car runs fine above idle, it just idles py. When I get a chance I want to check my plugs again. They're only about a year old, but the idle was super-smooth for a few months after I put them in.
Quote from: Quietleaf;291851
I'd have to check (it's at the shop so I can't check now). I thought there are aftermarket 5.0 cams that keep the stock firing order. Isn't the 86 HO cam the same firing order?
I figured out your problem:D If you have a HO style cam (ie 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 firing order) then:
1. The SO computer is set up for a 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 firing order, which means that some of your injectors are not firing at the right time. 2. The SO computer is set up for 14lb injectors not 19lb injectors. No matter how much you mess with the fuel pressure it will not run right with the 19lb injectors.
I have an easy fix for you if the car has a HO style cam: remove the stock SO computer and stick in a HO SD computer from a Lincoln Mark VII. It's plug and play with no extra wiring for a MAF swap. That's the only way it will run right.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: CatCarMan2012 on September 23, 2009, 04:52:12 PM
I have a SD HO Computer if you are interested. I believe its a DA1 program.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 23, 2009, 08:47:45 PM
The car was brought back late today. I can take a look at the distributor cap tomorrow and see what it thinks the firing order is, but I have no way to tell what the cam is doing :confused:
What does DA1 mean?
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on September 24, 2009, 12:35:27 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;292326
I have an easy fix for you if the car has a HO style cam: remove the stock SO computer and stick in a HO SD computer from a Lincoln Mark VII. It's plug and play with no extra wiring for a MAF swap. That's the only way it will run right.
87-89 mustang computer will also work. thats what is in mine.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 24, 2009, 08:07:10 AM
*smacks head*
I'll just call my neighbor and ask him if they swapped in a crankshaft with a different firing order. They would have to have done that to change the firing order.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Masejoer on September 24, 2009, 09:14:05 AM
Quote from: Quietleaf;292410
I'll just call my neighbor and ask him if they swapped in a crankshaft with a different firing order. They would have to have done that to change the firing order.
The cranks are the same between the firing orders?
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on September 24, 2009, 09:14:12 AM
no they wouldnt
cranks are the same, cams are different.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 24, 2009, 01:02:21 PM
Hmm. How would the cylinders be at TDC at the right time with the same crank? I don't understand.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Beau on September 24, 2009, 01:37:06 PM
Firing order is determined by the cam ;)
Basically, the cams are different, instead of a certain piston being on the compression stroke, it's on the exhaust stroke, or what have you. The cam (and thusly the firing) is different from the SO to the HO to make this work...not ALL the cylinders are on different orders, just a few. Hope this helps to clear the confusion.
I too once thought it impossible...but it works lol...
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 24, 2009, 04:01:14 PM
Okay, I think I get it...it's moving the intake and exhaust strokes.
Anyhow, there's something fishy here. My firing order is the SO order (1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8), and my injectors definitely don't look like 19# ones (or if they are, they're the only tan-colored ones I've ever seen). I'm wondering if I need to just order everything I need and have my neighbor put them in. Are 19# injectors *always* orange, or are some tan? Is there a way I can tell what they are?
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: CatCarMan2012 on September 24, 2009, 04:13:19 PM
Tan/Orange=19#, Grey=15#. I have 19#s that are more tanish than orange.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 24, 2009, 04:22:28 PM
This is the best picture I was able to take with my camera a few minutes ago...
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 24, 2009, 04:28:28 PM
Closeup of the numbers, if they mean anything...
650 150710
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 24, 2009, 05:48:59 PM
Grr...Okay, this REALLY me off. The whole time I thought they were 19# injectors (because I was told they were, but they aren't). So now I guess I'm going to have to take matters into my own hands...acquire everything I need for an HO conversion and bring the lot to my neighbor to put in. Injectors are easy, but I have no idea what cam and computer I need.
There's a "DC" computer available on eBay (and I have an AOD)...anyone know if that would work, or is a DA1/DB1 required?
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 24, 2009, 06:25:23 PM
"DC" is listed as a 5.0 T-Bird EEC, possibly what you already have now... Make a list of the Stang 'puters so you'll know what you are looking for... IF the cam was changed to a SO firing order performance type, there is no EEC that would be correct...
http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=17 T-Bird listings are about three quarters down the page...
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 24, 2009, 06:34:34 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;292484
"DC" is listed as a 5.0 T-Bird EEC, possibly what you already have now... Make a list of the Stang 'puters so you'll know what you are looking for... IF the cam was changed to a SO firing order performance type, there is no EEC that would be correct...
http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=17 T-Bird listings are about three quarters down the page...
I'm inclined to think that a DC computer would work, it looks like the only difference is pin 30.
I don't know what NDS means, and I can't even find pin 30 in my EVTM. I've already ordered injectors and I'll snag the "DC" computer. I already have a 65mm TB so that only leaves a cam (I figure that I'll need one). I took a look at Summit, but left thoroughly confused.
Edit: This is a pretty neat document on the EEC-IV...apparently it goes to the neutral safety switch, which I have since I have an AOD. This also explains why an AOD Mustang computer won't work if you have a manual trans...no neutral safety switch, so no starting the car.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: grutinator on September 24, 2009, 08:52:18 PM
if you're changing over to HO. the dc would not work. you need a stang or a lincoln computer. with speed density if thats what you're going to keep. auto or manual doesnt really matter as much, people will say one might be a little better then the other though. but as far as mandatory criteria goes, for a HO SD engine you need a computer that operates HO SD functions. theres no way around it.
and the nuetral safety can be grounded or powered (whatever it needs to see, i'm not sure off hand) and bypass. not much to that
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 24, 2009, 08:57:50 PM
The DC is a Mustang computer...or am I missing something?
DA1 5.0 87 Mustang SD-SFI / Manual (see note 1) DB1 5.0 87 Mustang SD-SFI / Manual DC 5.0 Mustang SD-SFI / Auto DE 5.0 Mustang SD-SFI / Auto
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on September 24, 2009, 09:52:02 PM
are you 100% sure it has an aftermarket cam in it? someone pulled a fast one on you with the injectors, maybe they also didnt put a cam in?
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 24, 2009, 10:04:21 PM
Quote from: Dougy_Fresh;292508
are you 100% sure it has an aftermarket cam in it? someone pulled a fast one on you with the injectors, maybe they also didnt put a cam in?
I'm not sure of anything anymore...which is why I've decided to get everything I need by myself. I can verify the firing order and the injectors, so they would have to put the cam in.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Beau on September 25, 2009, 02:34:23 AM
Quietleaf, just for shiznits and grins, when you get the eec and injectors, try them with the cam that's in there now, and make sure you wire the distributor for HO-specs. From what I gather, you have an HO cam (or something akin to that)....
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: grutinator on September 25, 2009, 03:05:15 PM
Quote from: Quietleaf;292498
The DC is a Mustang computer...or am I missing something?
DA1 5.0 87 Mustang SD-SFI / Manual (see note 1) DB1 5.0 87 Mustang SD-SFI / Manual DC 5.0 Mustang SD-SFI / Auto DE 5.0 Mustang SD-SFI / Auto
idk, this is weird. its listed twice. once as a 5.0 bird and again as a mustang. both SD-SFI / Auto. that doesnt make sense
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Quietleaf on September 25, 2009, 06:39:14 PM
Quote from: grutinator;292587
idk, this is weird. its listed twice. once as a 5.0 bird and again as a mustang. both SD-SFI / Auto. that doesnt make sense
Something fishy here. I have the Ford parts PDF and I can't find the part number anywhere, even in the cross-section area. I Googled "e7sf-12a650-c1a" and it looks like no one knows what it is for sure.
I decided not to screw around and snagged a DA1 computer too. At least that's a known quantity.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 25, 2009, 08:18:22 PM
Quote from: Quietleaf;292486
I don't know what NDS means, and I can't even find pin 30 in my EVTM.
NDS is Neutral Drive Switch, tells the EEC if the transmission is in gear or not...
I suppose the DC could be a Stang EEC, guess you have a 50/50 chance...
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: jcassity on September 25, 2009, 09:07:19 PM
Quote from: Old_Paint;292130
Being the 'proud owner' of TWO 3.8's with TBI's, and that silly little reservoir down near the MAP, I'll certify the throttle response issue. I've always noticed a slight lag from throttle change to actual response. (Not that I was expecting something neck breaking, just a response, please). I bought one of the two I have brand new in December '85, and from day dot, it's had that lag. Not a huge lag, but a lag, nonetheless. QUOTE]
Told you a while back what the "Lag" was.
replace or just delete your fuel injector screens. problem will go away or dinner is on me.
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: V8Demon on September 25, 2009, 09:18:43 PM
Quote from: Dougy_Fresh;291741
putting a cam in a speed density car without idle surge and poor driveability.
i just put a b303 in my car with a HO computer and it idles perfect. i guess this is just another thing that makes my car a freak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJS_X3r0eWU
Back to the OP......I have 2 questions.
1) Is the car idling in Park? 2) What is the idle RPM?
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on September 26, 2009, 12:20:29 AM
in that video, yes, it was in park. park/nuetral idle is around 850 and in gear is about 750
Title: they say it cant be done....
Post by: Old_Paint on September 26, 2009, 01:44:53 PM
Quote from: jcassity;292633
Quote from: Old_Paint;292130
Being the 'proud owner' of TWO 3.8's with TBI's, and that silly little reservoir down near the MAP, I'll certify the throttle response issue. I've always noticed a slight lag from throttle change to actual response. (Not that I was expecting something neck breaking, just a response, please). I bought one of the two I have brand new in December '85, and from day dot, it's had that lag. Not a huge lag, but a lag, nonetheless. QUOTE]
Told you a while back what the "Lag" was.
replace or just delete your fuel injector screens. problem will go away or dinner is on me.
The injector screens were stopped up when the car was brand new? That wouldn't speak very well for quality control at the factory. I did do the screen delete, btw, and it made no difference on the one that falls on it's face after it gets to closed loop temperature. (You owe me a dinner. :rollin:) AND, it only seems to do it under light load, i.e. in Drive leaving a light or acclerating from 35 to 45 mph speed zone, etc. NORMAL driving conditions. I've never been able to duplicate the problem in reverse or park when trying to figure out what it might be. The biggest problem I am having is avalibility of active diagnostics equipment when I'm travelling down the road at 30-45 mph. AND, I reiterate a previous objection, if it were clogged injectors, it would be worse at WOT than at light throttle. I have NO technical problem with WOT, only the personal problem of not having two more cylinders out there. At idle, it purrs like a kitten. Until it goes to closed loop, it does not do this. Fouled injectors would create this problem worse under WOT, and the problem would not be mitigated when the engine was cold. If I get on the interstate, and set the cruise on 70, it'll purr all day long between 69 and 73 mph, up and down hills, and NEVER a hesitation. The only thing I can point at there, is an increased air flow across the front of the engine, and this whole time, my problem may be with the dizzy mounted TFI. It is the original TFI on the car from the day I bought it. But by same token, why doesn't it do the same thing when I have it sitting in my driveway after warming it up, and ease down on the throttle?
I'm not talking about the severe hesitation problem I have with the blue one in this topic. When the random hesitation doesn't occur with the weird problem, it runs just like the red one. Ever so slight response delay from the time the throttle changes, to the time I can actually feel my intent. BOTH of them do exactly the same thing when I 'blip' the throttle. Not much of anything, other than sound like they're burping the cat. What I hear in the exhaust sounds an awful lot like the TAB or TAD is simply redirecting the air flow from the pump. There is no significant increase in RPM, and yes, I'm mentally compensating for the inertia of the engine and torque converter. This is not a long delay, but noticeable to me. I don't have all the specs for all the components, so doing the math is next to impossible. But, any and every delay due to response of each component and the associated conversions and logic associated with it in the EEC will be cumulative. It will never be perfect, but perhaps with super high speed components and a super fast computer, a bit less noticeable. It's old stuff, and was the leading edge of the technology, which has now been rethunk, and better components and computers put in. I can live with that tiny delay I speak of, but that doesn't stop me from noticing it.