And here I thought y'all just spoke hick... :hick:
:flip:
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: jkirchman on April 12, 2005, 12:34:08 PM
From the article:
Quote
Andrew Schneider, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of West Virginia, said English-only laws are based on the false premise that immigrants will not learn English without government coercion.
"And English-only laws do nothing constructive to increase English proficiency. They simply discriminate and punish those who have not yet learned English," Schneider said.
I HATE the ACLU. If you spoon feed non-English speaking people documents and labels in their own language then they won't bother to learn English. Chances are they don't speak it at home and if they don't have any problems reading everything in their native language then why learn to read or speak English? And I can say that, because my father-in-law doesn't speak English.
Eric -- Actually this is pretty big. The US does not have an "official" language. It might become an issue later, especially with all of the increasingly Hispanic immigrants we're getting.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: cougarcragar on April 12, 2005, 12:34:44 PM
I tell yoo what! :wtf:
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Bird351 on April 12, 2005, 12:41:59 PM
I'm still trying to make sense of E.O. 13166.. dubbed "Clinton's War On English" by some.
Title: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: JeremyB on April 12, 2005, 12:55:36 PM
English isn't Ohio's official language.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Tbird232ci on April 12, 2005, 12:56:01 PM
dame cabeza puto!
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: V8Demon on April 12, 2005, 12:57:33 PM
Quote
If you spoon feed non-English speaking people documents and labels in their own language then they won't bother to learn English.
I agree. I deal with people who have been in this country for 10 or more years and I'm carrying on conversations with them that are totally in Spanish. Nothing wrong with spanish speaking people, however in the past immigrants had to adapt to survive. Today, it seems the many have to learn the ways of the few instead of vice-versa.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Tbird232ci on April 12, 2005, 01:02:59 PM
Quote from: Paul Flockhart
I agree. I deal with people who have been in this country for 10 or more years and I'm carrying on conversations with them that are totally in Spanish. Nothing wrong with spanish speaking people, however in the past immigrants had to adapt to survive. Today, it seems the many have to learn the ways of the few instead of vice-versa.
i completely agree
my father works for a delivery company, they deliver appliances to homes, and a majority of the truck drivers and deliverers are hispanic, and theyll come into the office ranting about how the americans need to learn spanish, where as they come into an english speaking country and expect to not have to adapt?
if we went to a spanish speaking country, we would be expected to have to learn the native language, it would be helpful to find people that can at least speak broken english, but we cant expect them to learn english for us
thats the problem with this "melting pot" country, no one knows what any of the "official" languages are, the "majority" race, or anything of the sort, it was never put in writing, so no one knows what to learn, or what they should be doing
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: EricCoolCats on April 12, 2005, 01:05:30 PM
Jim, I sort of agree with you. If you live in ANY country it should go without saying, or putting into law, that you need to speak the native language in order to do most anything. This includes legal documents, a driver's license, banking, even withdrawing a book from the library. If I moved to Russia, would people in that country expect that I speak Russian? Or puppiesanese for puppiesan? Well hell yeah, what would you think?! You'd be hurting really bad if you didn't. In some instances you couldn't survive at all.
The difference is, America has always been a melting pot for the world. Therefore, one does not necessarily HAVE to speak English in order to survive here. People can get by just fine speaking their native tongue, especially if they live and congregate in areas with similar nationalities. Chinatown in NYC, for example...they have a slice of their own country in the U.S. because it makes them feel comfortable. There's nothing wrong with that. Part of the establishment of my area was based upon immigrants working at the steel mills. To this day, there are towns and sections of the city with predominant nationalities (Greek, Italian, Puerto Rican, Jewish, etc.). I have done a lot of my banking in the town which is mostly of Greek descent, and can tell you that these people understand English just fine. They just choose not to speak it, or have never learned to speak it properly. And yet they're 80 years old and doing their banking in the Land of Opportunity that is the U.S. They've worked, raised families, retired, and filled their bellies without knowing English. God bless 'em. Why force them?
In general, it's been my observation that people will often do the bare minimum to get by in a given situation. That probably will never change. Having the government decide the official language would definitely be a major issue. While the optimist in me would love to see it happen, the realist in me says that it won't. Forcing change like that would be inherently wrong to the founding principles of this country.
However, with the case in WV, it's nice to know that they're getting technologically advanced now. Next thing you know, they'll have some a' that thar 'lectricity and whatnot. ;)
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: EricCoolCats on April 12, 2005, 01:11:41 PM
Quote from: JeremyB
English isn't Ohio's official language.
I don't see it listed for Alabama either...
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: JeremyB on April 12, 2005, 01:14:06 PM
Quote from: EricCoolCats
I don't see it listed for Alabama either...
It is. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JWCRAWFORD/langleg.htm
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Bird351 on April 12, 2005, 01:16:50 PM
Quote from: Tbird232ci
thats the problem with this "melting pot" country, no one knows what any of the "official" languages are
I don't think "melting pot" applies very well anymore. Such a term insinuates ingredients blending/melting together to become something new, etc.
I forget where I heard the buttstuffogy used first, but I think a more appropriate buttstuffogy these days is a "salad bowl".. as in distinct ingredients that never really mix, and are just thrown together.
Insert any and all "tossed salad" jokes here. :p
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: EricCoolCats on April 12, 2005, 01:16:55 PM
Funny that it's not listed on their offical website though. We tried about 8 years ago with no outcome. Residents felt it was a given, therefore not necessary.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: 20th anny 5.o on April 12, 2005, 01:38:31 PM
Quote from: jkirchman
From the article:
I HATE the ACLU. If you spoon feed non-English speaking people documents and labels in their own language then they won't bother to learn English. Chances are they don't speak it at home and if they don't have any problems reading everything in their native language then why learn to read or speak English? And I can say that, because my father-in-law doesn't speak English.
I totally agree. It has gotten so bad we dont have walk and dont walk signs here in toledo its all icons you know the hand and the dude walking
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: JeremyB on April 12, 2005, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: EricCoolCats
Funny that it's not listed on their offical website though.
We have the world's longest Constitution; it's hard to put everything in it on the website. ;)
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: oldraven on April 12, 2005, 01:43:17 PM
And here I thought the Canadian government knew how to waste money.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: jkirchman on April 12, 2005, 01:54:52 PM
Quote from: EricCoolCats
Forcing change like that would be inherently wrong to the founding principles of this country.
Agreed. But if you've got to call 911 or talk to the police or go to court and they don't have anyone that speaks Spanish, Italian, Chinese, or whatever, is it your fault or theirs?
I haven't been able to have an intelligent conversation with my father-in-law. EVER. And I've been married almost two years. And the saddest part is that he is a very intelligent guy.
Bow to the will of the majority. Learn the language of the country in which you live. In the long run it'll be beneficial to you and your family anyway.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Thunder Chicken on April 12, 2005, 04:17:34 PM
While I am generally against other ethnicities (or whatever the word I'm looking for is) trying to shove their beliefsand customs down the throats of their host country I can see both sides of the issue. Take a fairly famous case here in Canada about a Sikh mountie that wanted the right to wear his turban instead of the regulation mountie garb. There are two sides to this issue and both are very valid.
On the "no, he should wear the mountie hat" side one could argue that he was aware of the dress code when he joined the force. One could say that he is in Canada, not India, and should adapt to Canada's ways. One could say that if we went to India to live we would be expected to follow their rules or be thrown in prison.
On the "Let 'im do it" side one could say that yes, we would have to follow their rules in India, but the fact that this Sikh fellow is not being forced to change his beliefs in Canada is one of the things that sets Canada apart from India; indeed, it is one of the compelling reasons to leave India and come to Canada in the first place. One could say that since aside from aboriginals Canada has no "ways" to adapt to, since we're all descended from immigrants. One could say that yes, he knew the rules, but not too long ago those rules also said no women. Rules can change.
It is not a cut-and-dry argument. It's tradition versus individual rights, and when these two issues clash it generally results in a lot of hysterics, a lot of hurt feelings, and in the end, a whole lot of nothing as the general public forgets all about it.
The same goes for this "official language" stuff, and I, for one, can see one very compelling reason to have an official language. Technically, and I'm surprised this has not been used in court, an immigrant could be acquitted of a criminal charge unless all of the paperwork and even the trial itself was in the person's native tongue. The state would have no defence against this argument because it has no official language, and thus it is nowhere in the law books that the laws must be written and enforced in english. The defendant could rightfully argue that because there is no official language, his own language is just as "important" as english and should therefore be used in the courtroom. He could refuse to sign documents, in fact, he could even refuse to show up in court with the argument that he could not understand the court order.
If this sounds foolish, consider this: In New Brunswick, Canada it happened. A guy got off on a bunch of parking tickets in Moncton because the no parking signs, court documentation and trial were all in english. He was french, and even though he fully understood english (he was on interviews on TV speaking it clearly) he did not have to recognize any of it because the province of New Brunswick has two official languages (english and french) and french was not present in any of this munil level stuff. The courts sided with him, threw his case out, and caused the city of Moncton to buy a whole lot of new stationery and signs.
While this is slightly different than having no official language at all, it still has the same ramnifications. If one language is not official, all languages could be considered official.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: cougarcragar on April 12, 2005, 04:48:20 PM
Quote from: EricCoolCats
However, with the case in WV, it's nice to know that they're getting technologically advanced now. Next thing you know, they'll have some a' that thar 'lectricity and whatnot. ;)
Watch yer step, boy. I'll have to send a messenger over to Ohior with a nasty letter from tha gov'ner.
All joking aside, WV is one of the worst states in the country. It's usually in the last 3 states for "livability", and it's one of the heaviest moochers from the Federal government. I graduate from college in about three weeks... then I'm scootin' to another state.
Now if you'll excuse me, I was in the middle of entertaining some dinner guests with my new stereoopticon.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: ban-one on April 13, 2005, 07:07:44 AM
One of our state representatives here in Iowa introduced a bill, H.R. 997, to make English the official language of the US. Check it out here (http://tinyurl.com/5xral). I was in Corpus Christie, Texas about twelve years ago and went to Denny's to enjoy a grand slam. When I went in, I noticed signs in Spanish ABOVE signs in English. For a minute I thought I had gone to far south. In Texas I expect to see that kind of thing, but not here in the midwest, especially Iowa. Now Spanish is everywhere. Times have changed and it's tough for some of us to adjust. I knew it was getting out of hand up here when drive-up ATM's started having an English - Spanish choice before you proceed. To me, that's as dumb as having braille on the ATM! :america:
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: CougarSE on April 13, 2005, 12:26:57 PM
I guess one small point to make is. English is the most difficult language to learn with exceptions to every rule. Spanish would be easier for us to learn than english for them. BUT HELL WILL FREEZE OVER BEFORE I LEARN SPANISH! Here in Logan ohio we have a group of mexicans that have started a resturant. They don't even have spanish signs in the place. Gota love southern Ohio!
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: jkirchman on April 13, 2005, 12:40:34 PM
Well I'm not that adamant about it. I actually like languages, though, so learning a new one is enjoyable to me. Plus I think it makes people feel more comfortable when you can speak to them in their native language. I know this from being around my wife's family: A lot of spanish speaking people are afraid to speak english to a native speaker because they are afraid they'll sound dumb or say something incorrectly or in the wrong context and embarass themselves.
I for one appreciate the effort when they at least try to speak english though. And most times they are way better at it than they think they are.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: oldraven on April 13, 2005, 01:23:59 PM
I work with a lot of guys from the former soviet union, and when they apologize for mispr0nouncing something, or their poor english, I just tell them. 'Hey man. Your English is a lot better than my Russian.'
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: ban-one on April 13, 2005, 01:41:59 PM
I use a piece of software at work that was made by a french company, so the first time I needed tech support, I used the french I learned in school. Not a good idea! They tore me apart for improper phrasing and pr0nounciation of certain words. After the berating, they offered their english speaking help desk. I was too busy bandaging my wounds to correct their **American** english. Freakin frogs.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: V8Demon on April 13, 2005, 01:42:20 PM
Quote
I don't think "melting pot" applies very well anymore. Such a term insinuates ingredients blending/melting together to become something new, etc.
I'm not trying to be funny here, but I agree with Bird351 and I think a more correct term today would be a Tossed saled. You got tomatoes, lettuce, onions, cucumbers and other vegetables all in the same dish/bowl, but all can be separated and individualized
Quote
A lot of spanish speaking people are afraid to speak english to a native speaker because they are afraid they'll sound dumb or say something incorrectly or in the wrong context and embarass themselves
OK, embarassment sucks, however I am on the flipside of that coin. My Spanish is good, but NOT GREAT. I know enough to carry on a converstion, but I cannot take a witness statement from someone who has seen or been a victim of a crime who speaks only Spanish. I am not skilled enough in the Spanish language. I would rather the attempt be made if it is possible to try the other language that is used by the majority. In some instances it can save time, money and even a life.
Quote
I'm surprised this has not been used in court, an immigrant could be acquitted of a criminal charge unless all of the paperwork and even the trial itself was in the person's native tongue
This happens all the time! Case in point: Police Officer X arrests person Y for DWI. Officer X speaks only English. Person Y speaks only Spanish. According to NYS law for DWI rights must be read and also another paragraph from a form called an "Alcohol/Drug Influence Report" which is read before you ask the defendant if he wishes to blow into the Intoxylizer machine. According to the law it does not have to be read in Spanish. It does not happen often, but sometimes a good defense attorney can get a DWI arrest dismissed on this alone. Needless to say I make sure it is read in Spanish if required.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: jkirchman on April 13, 2005, 01:50:38 PM
Quote
They tore me apart for improper phrasing and pr0nounciation of certain words.
Yeah but you're talking about the French. They have a preservation society in their country that is actively trying to eliminate the use of any words in the French language that have an influence from another language. They want to keep their language free from "impurities."
Examples: Instead of le computer you must say le ordinateur and other such nonsense.
So yeah. The French are uppity about their language. They are snotty and rude and like disgusting cheese too.
There are two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other peoples' cultures, and the French.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: ban-one on April 13, 2005, 01:55:17 PM
I thought it was "the Dutch"!
Favorite french phrase: "Il es facteur" Only because it sounds dirty but loosly translated is "He is a mailman"
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: jkirchman on April 13, 2005, 01:56:49 PM
Quote
I thought it was "the Dutch"!
hehe. I hoped someone would catch that reference.
"I'm from Holland! Isn't that weird?"
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: ban-one on April 13, 2005, 02:02:06 PM
Would you like a smoke and a pancake?
It got weird didn't it.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 02:08:22 PM
Quote from: Paul Flockhart
I'm not trying to be funny here, but I agree with Bird351 and I think a more correct term today would be a Tossed saled. You got tomatoes, lettuce, onions, cucumbers and other vegetables all in the same dish/bowl, but all can be separated and individualized
Don't sweat it, I already left the door open for people to throw out the "tossed salad" jokes. :p
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: 20th anny 5.o on April 13, 2005, 03:53:01 PM
Quote from: jkirchman
There are two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other peoples' cultures, and the French.
Indeed My father hates that i like some puppies things, they may have been tought back then to be adamant against outside influences, but that just not the way its run anymore. I called him culturally dry and he got pissed at me. ( this whole argument between my father and i came about over a samauri movie)
What im tryin to say is we need to be tolerant with other cultures.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: oldraven on April 13, 2005, 04:29:45 PM
Quote from: jkirchman
Examples: Instead of le computer you must say le ordinateur and other such nonsense.
Actually, that would be l'ordinateur. The same way we seperate 'a' and 'an' when it precedes a vowel. Vous ne comprenez pas le français. :nono:
(and yes, I'm joking, an a big way ;) )
:canada:
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 04:49:28 PM
Quote from: 20th anny 5.o
Indeed My father hates that i like some puppies things, they may have been tought back then to be adamant against outside influences, but that just not the way its run anymore. I called him culturally dry and he got pissed at me. ( this whole argument between my father and i came about over a samauri movie)
What im tryin to say is we need to be tolerant with other cultures.
See, in my book he IS tolerant of them.
All the groups out there desperately searching for validation in the eyes of everyone else have twisted "tolerant" into something hideous. In my book, if you're not out actively trying to destroy another culture or at the very least going out of your way to badmouth it to everyone you see regardless of their opinion of it, then you're tolerating it.
But, as I see it, activist groups of people like many homoshaguals have turned "tolerant" into meaning anything that welcomes them with open arms and enthusiastic support of their ways. If you don't sing their praises, then you are labelled as intolerant and even fearful of them, no matter what your actual view of the group in question. As an example: I admit, I don't like most gays.. HOWEVER, I say it with no more dislike than if I said I didn't like turnips. But, even that gets me labelled as intolerant and homophobic and what not.. even though I tolerate them every time I encounter them.. and I sure as hell don't fear them. Until they make their shaguality an issue, they're just another person to me.. and after they make their shaguality an issue, they're still just another person to me, just a person who has gone out of their way to share something I didn't really want to know. As long as it goes no further than that, I have no problem with that. I don't love gay people in general, I don't hate gay people in general.. basically as long as no one actively tries to "recruit" me, I simply don't care about whatever they wanna do.
I use gays as an example because they're one of many groups where the "tolerant/intolerant" labelling gets applied heavily. Some things about the treatment of "alternative lifestyle" groups and ethnic groups are similar.. but this is not meant to say that (as an example) gays and asians (since you mentioned your father disliking "puppiess") share all the same issues.
I've been as careful with my words as I could be, in a discussion like this.. but I have a feeling that this thread could get out of hand easily with one wrong word.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: oldraven on April 13, 2005, 04:55:48 PM
Seems they want 'tolerant' to mean 'indifferent'.
What does Mexcougar think of all this?
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: ban-one on April 13, 2005, 05:00:57 PM
Quel arbre? - More french I remember....it's all starting to come back.
"Is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón."
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 05:21:39 PM
Quote from: oldraven
Seems they want 'tolerant' to mean 'indifferent'.
I think they want it to mean more than indifferent.. because as I've tried to explain, my attitude is pretty much indifferent to them.. but they react as badly to my outlook on them as if I had openly bashed them. I think they want "tolerant" to be nothing less than full and unconditional acceptance, approval, and support.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: jkirchman on April 13, 2005, 05:56:04 PM
Quote
Vous ne comprenez pas le français
Took two years of it in high school and that's about it. And all the Spanish I've heard since I met my wife has pretty much cancelled out the little bit 'o French that I learned. Plus, I ain't from Canada. Everything here is in English and Spanish, not English and French. Thank God. :america: :hick:
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: tbirdscott on April 13, 2005, 07:04:28 PM
One thing I dont understand is that the ATM at the bada-boom room ( :ies: ) has english and spanish options, then when that ran out of money I walked down to my bank and that ATM had english, spanish, and french options. Yet this is :canada: where i've NEVER heard one lick of spanish! And I hear more of the indian and natives languages than french!
Took french in school till grade 10(?) and cant understand anything in french but when my mom/grandparents/uncles would yell in ukranian I knew pretty well what was goin on, probabally has something with growing up around it :p cant speak/write/read a word of it though.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Thunder Chicken on April 13, 2005, 08:12:57 PM
I've always wondered why minorities use the word "tolerance" anyway. I "tolerate" the little that lives next door to me, but I certainly do not like him. I "tolerate" people smoking around me, but I don't like it. To me, the word "tolerate", by definition, means "to not like something but to put up with it anyway", so the gays (again, only using them as an example) asking for tolerance seems kinda backwards to me. Their goal should be "acceptance". I accepted my friend when he told me he was gay (Who killed himself two years ago, and I just this moment realized that today would've been his 32nd birthday). I accept people talking a different language than I (unless they're pointing at me and giggling). I have no hatred for things I don't understand, so I don't "tolerate" them, I accept and try to understand them (I'd love to understand different languages). I accept other's cultures and traditions.
What I don't accept OR tolerate is people trying to change everyone's way of life to suit their own, such as athiests trying to remove "One nation under God" from the pledge of allegiance or Christmas from schools. And I am not religious in any way, shape or form. I just don't believe that one person with their knickers in a knot over having to look at a nativity scene should force everybody else to not have to look at it. I don't think the religious right should force thier views on others either, so it's a two-way street. The athiest can turn his head away from the nativity scene just as well as the religious zealot (to put this fire out before it starts, I do not consider all religious people "zealots", only those who pick and choose the parts of the bible to follow and then try to force those beliefs on everyone else) can turn his head and not look at the two gay guys getting married. Unfortunately we'll always have people who are not happy unless the world bows to them. As far as I'm concerned, if it does not affect me and there are no victims I have no reason to oppose it, and neither should anyone else.
The Sikh mountie I mentioned earlier was not trying to change anything for anybody else except himself. He was not asking that all mounties start wearing turbans, he was only asking that they allow him to. Nothing wrong with that. When somebody tries to stop a Christmas concert at an elementary school because they don't believe in God, well, that is wrong. Not because they don't believe in God - they are, after all, free to chose their religion. What is wrong is that they arte actively trying to stop people that DO believe in God from practicing their traditions. For pete's sake, if you don't want to see the concert, don't go to it! Just don't expect any support from me if you try to stop anyone else from going!
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Mercoug302 on April 13, 2005, 08:21:00 PM
Quote from: Tbird232ci
dame cabeza puto!
You first . . . mama verga . . .
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 08:37:38 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken
What I don't accept OR tolerate is people trying to change everyone's way of life to suit their own, such as athiests trying to remove "One nation under God" from the pledge of allegiance
Those four words were added much later. Do you tolerate the people who wanted to add them, if you don't tolerate the people who want them absent again?
Actually, I was reading the other day that the original pledge called for people to salute the flag with right arm and hand extended toward it. Kinda like another salute we now all associate with guys in brown shirts, and I don't mean UPS. :p If it's true, there's a change I can live with. :p
Personally, I don't care if those four words are there or not. I no longer recite the pledge, I don't stand up for songs, or anything else like that. I admit it, I'm really not a very patriotic person. I don't plan on having kids, but if I ever did, they'd be just as free to do (or not do) the same things I do.. or they can be as wildly patriotic as they feel necessary. I sincerely doubt I'd ever just up and do what that guy did over the pledge. (and wasn't he not even very close to that kid to begin with?)
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: jkirchman on April 13, 2005, 09:42:23 PM
Yeah he used the kid as an excuse but it turned out that he didn't even have legal custody of her.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: ban-one on April 13, 2005, 10:47:08 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken
I've always wondered why minorities use the word "tolerance" anyway. I "tolerate" the little that lives next door to me, but I certainly do not like him. I "tolerate" people smoking around me, but I don't like it. To me, the word "tolerate", by definition, means "to not like something but to put up with it anyway", so the gays (again, only using them as an example) asking for tolerance seems kinda backwards to me. Their goal should be "acceptance". I accepted my friend when he told me he was gay (Who killed himself two years ago, and I just this moment realized that today would've been his 32nd birthday). I accept people talking a different language than I (unless they're pointing at me and giggling). I have no hatred for things I don't understand, so I don't "tolerate" them, I accept and try to understand them (I'd love to understand different languages). I accept other's cultures and traditions.
What I don't accept OR tolerate is people trying to change everyone's way of life to suit their own, such as athiests trying to remove "One nation under God" from the pledge of allegiance or Christmas from schools. And I am not religious in any way, shape or form. I just don't believe that one person with their knickers in a knot over having to look at a nativity scene should force everybody else to not have to look at it. I don't think the religious right should force thier views on others either, so it's a two-way street. The athiest can turn his head away from the nativity scene just as well as the religious zealot (to put this fire out before it starts, I do not consider all religious people "zealots", only those who pick and choose the parts of the bible to follow and then try to force those beliefs on everyone else) can turn his head and not look at the two gay guys getting married. Unfortunately we'll always have people who are not happy unless the world bows to them. As far as I'm concerned, if it does not affect me and there are no victims I have no reason to oppose it, and neither should anyone else.
The Sikh mountie I mentioned earlier was not trying to change anything for anybody else except himself. He was not asking that all mounties start wearing turbans, he was only asking that they allow him to. Nothing wrong with that. When somebody tries to stop a Christmas concert at an elementary school because they don't believe in God, well, that is wrong. Not because they don't believe in God - they are, after all, free to chose their religion. What is wrong is that they arte actively trying to stop people that DO believe in God from practicing their traditions. For pete's sake, if you don't want to see the concert, don't go to it! Just don't expect any support from me if you try to stop anyone else from going!
Well said TC!
I read a story about the flag salute also a while and saw some pictures of people in formation with arms extended. Gotta find that link because it was an interesting read. The four words "one nation under God" in the pledge were added in 1954 after a succesful campaign by the Knights of Columbus. I don't care if people say the words or not. I served in the US Army for six years so people would have the right to decide things like that for themselves.
Hey jkirchman, "je comprende un petit pous francais" - I just can't write it very well. I picked french over spanish in high school because there was this girl in class.......
I've been trying to learn Irish Gaelic, but I'm not sure how much more my liver can take.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Bird351 on April 13, 2005, 10:53:52 PM
It's probably on RexCurry.net (http://www.rexcurry.net)
EDIT: The funny thing is, I sent him a link to it in private, 'cause I thought posting the link here publicly might stir up too much trouble.. then you went and elaborated on things, so I filled in what I thought you were looking for. D'oh.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: ban-one on April 13, 2005, 11:00:25 PM
Never heard of that site but I'll check it out.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: oldraven on April 13, 2005, 11:40:44 PM
Quote from: ban-one
I've been trying to learn Irish Gaelic, but I'm not sure how much more my liver can take.
Cool. I'm trying to learn a bit of Scotts Gaelic. I grew up three hours from pretty much the only place left in Canada where a certain percentage of the population still speaks Gaelic, but I never learned a word.
It's weird. Like speaking Russian and French at the same time. :crazy:
Well done, Carmen. I agree 110%. What drives me is the Christmas tree issue. People want to change the holiday to 'Happy Holidays'. The thing is, if you don't believe in Christmas, what right do you have to even celebrate the day? If you don't like it, you should have to go to work that day, and never watch It's a Wonderful Life. The holiday is a Christian holiday, not a secular one, so no one should have any say in the way it's celebrated but those who actually subscribe to the beliefs involved with it. But you can all thank pen 15e for that. Santa, (based on a Christian Saint) has ruined it all.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Thunder Chicken on April 14, 2005, 08:46:11 AM
OK, I didn't know that about the "One nation under God" thing, but you get my point about people trying to end traditions followed by the majority because they don't agree with them. If you don't agree with a tradition, then by all means don't partake in it. Just don't expect my support if you try to deprive others of their rights to partake in it. It's Merry Christmas, God dammit, not Happy Holidays. If you don't believe in what Christmas is about, STFU and don't celebrate it.
Like I said - I am not religious, but I do celebrate Christmas. Not for the religious aspect, but for everything else Christmas stands for: Peace, happiness, goodwill, twinkling lights, and yes, the loot. While I dont follow religion I certainly would never dream of stripping this holiday of its religious name and foundation. That would be stupid, and it would be incredibly selfish.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: 20th anny 5.o on April 14, 2005, 03:53:56 PM
i dident man to start this wild fire off.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Bird351 on April 14, 2005, 03:55:05 PM
This ain't no wild fire.. no one's really arguing yet. Just some strong opinions flying around at this point.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: EricCoolCats on April 14, 2005, 03:56:18 PM
Yeah, I just thought we were going to all comment on those stump-jumpers down in WV! :hick:
:rollin:
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: V8Demon on April 14, 2005, 03:58:20 PM
Quote
i dident man to start this wild fire off.
No wildfire, at least I don't think so....... This is one of the longest threads we've had with a good topic for discussion where everyone has been civil and polite.
Quote
Like I said - I am not religious, but I do celebrate Christmas. Not for the religious aspect, but for everything else Christmas stands for: Peace, happiness, goodwill, twinkling lights, and yes, the loot. While I dont follow religion I certainly would never dream of stripping this holiday of its religious name and foundation. That would be stupid, and it would be incredibly selfish.
Well put.
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: Bird351 on April 14, 2005, 04:01:58 PM
Eric = trubble-maker! :p
Title: Re: Welcome to the 21st Century, WV!
Post by: oldraven on April 14, 2005, 04:03:55 PM
I don't mean to say non-Christians shouldn't be able to celebrate Christmas, they just shouldn't be able to complain about the nature of the sacred day, (or day representing a sacred event. Turns out Christ was actually born around mid April).