This may... or may not be an odd question.
I am having electrical issues with the bird. It went in for paint, and after a couple days the guy called and said my battery keeps draining. They only took a couple of ground wires off of the front of the engine bay where the hood pole thing lies... but that's it. I took the ground wires off and made sure there is good connection and no paint under them.
The battery will not hold a charge. The alternator is just fine. I charged the battery overnight and it started in the morning. A half hour after I got to work it was low again.
A buddy told me that my battery is way too small for the size of engine I have. He has an older F150 that he said he had a similar problem with. He said he would either burn through batteries or that the battery would do wierd electrical things in the truck.
Last night on the way home from work my driver side window would not go up. So I figured ahhh-haaa there's the issue. I changed the switch, and nothing. So I took the window motor out and put a spare in. It worked just fine. I hooked up the old one and noticed that when it was not under load of the window that the gear was moving. So put it back together and I am still scratching my head.
I had a 351w installed a year ago and at that time the battery was new. The battery does look physicall small to me(and everybody else who has looked at my engine) I think it only has 600 cranking amps.
Anyway, does anybody have experience with this? Can a large engine mess with a battery that is too small?
- Ever Grateful
Kyle
I'm not sure if it's to small, but it's not unheard of to have a bad battery in a year.
Charge it up and do a load test, or charge and take it to somewhere like AZ and have them test it. I'm a construction mechanic and I have battery's fail quite often.
was your fender apr0ns painted also?
'85 has an external voltage regulator correct?
the battery thing sounds like nonsense unless you have a thumping ghetto blasting system in there with a tiny geo metro battery running it. i dont think its your battery if its only a year old.
I sell batteries for a living. Typical Ford battery group sizes are 58 and 65. Mine has a 58. The most important thing is to match the cold cranking amp requirements (CCA). Physical size of the battery has no bearing on anything if it meets the required CCA's.
How long did the car sit while getting paint? Did they unfasten the negative cable from the battery before working on it? Did they allow the dome light to remain on while working on it with the doors open? If it sat too long with the negative cable fastened then any small parasitic drain with render the battery discharged after several days.
Also, it's never a good thing to unfasten major junctions of chassis ground wires if the battery is not disconncted first. Current can backfeed through the electrical system looking for a ground until it finds one, damaging certain parts and drain the battery.
Take it somewhere and do a battery, starting, alternator and drain test. 9 times out of ten it's a defective or discharged battery. And yes, batteries will go bad within a year if they are not used regularly with a charge maintained. That is one reason you never see long warranties on marine and farm equimment batteries. The enemy of a battery is heat and being repeatedly discharged.
They did not paint the inner fender apr0ns. I did have to replace the driver side fender, however.
I am not sure about the external V.R.
And nope, just a pretty basic Clarion radio, 4 speaker system. Nothing special at all.
I will have to ask the order in which they took the ground and battery loose. I will also see if they could have drained it somehow by leaving a light on or whatever. The guy worked on it after work alot, so it got moved many times before ping out though.
I know one thing for sure, the engine compartment gets pretty warm with that 351 in there.
I'll take it down to my favorite fellas and have them perform all of the checks on it. I'm REALLY hoping it is just the battery. It could take forever to find the issue other-wise.
Here is a list of things that changes while being painted:
Changed driver side fender
Changed trunk
Painted inside of doors, trunk, hood
Removed windshield wipers & wiper motor
Took two grounds off front of car inside hood (where the bar goes to hold the hood up)
Yes your 85 should have the external regulator. Then they changed the trunk lid. The switch for the trunk light is mounted on the arms that hold in on. If they had the deck lid off for an extended time that could be the offender. Those grounds up front on the Rad support is for the front end lights.
Stuckman
I have the smallest cheapest auto battery money can buy at wallmart. My car starts and runs fine.
The trunk definately was off for an extended period, however the problem still existed/exists with it all back together.
No problems with the lights. And you are right, those grounds are right behind the lights and go into the wiring harness. The lights work fine.
I'm sure I'll find out much more tomorrow afternoon when I take sweetness down to the shop.
Yup they got something to do with the blinkers. Before my bird was mine my buddy wrecked it. The front headlight area got whacked and the lights were all toast. Got new lights installed and everything worked but the blinker on that side wouldn't blink. It would turn on but not blink found that ground broken. I fixed it and it blinked like it should. That is on my 84 TC with those front fender white turn lights that shine to light the area your going to. That might make a difference.
Stuckman
ha,, my thoughts...........
some dick head jump started it wrong and you ended up with a jacked up alternator or voltage regulator and thus pumping AC voltage into your nice juicy but over cooked battery.
Test the alternator too. Might be draining back through it.
Update:
The battery was bad. So it was replaced. The alternator was good. I drove the car Wed, Thurs, and Friday morning it was dead again.
uuuggghh.
There has to be a significant drain on the battery when the car is off. You just gotta find what it is. A simple battery, starting, alternator and drain test performed at any Advance Auto Parts can confirm a drain when the ignition switch is off and the doors closed. If the underhood light works, make sure you undo the bulb or unplug it during the test. Both the underhood light and trunklid light use mercury switches that break the circuit when the lids are lowered.
If you comfirm there is a drain, then you need to start looking for circuits that may have stuck relays, faulty switches stuck in an on or closed position, etc. You may also check the ignition switch to be sure it has not worn out to the point it no longer disengages contacts when it is in the off position.
It just jogged my memory this very moment that one time I helped a customer find a drain in his Ford Crown Vic after buying a new battery and it was quite simply a worn out rear defogger switch just like the ones we have in our Birds and Cats. It took me quite a while to figure it out because it was not so obvious. The switch was so worn out it would vibrate itself into the on position and stick there. The little defroster-on light is often hard to see illuminated, especially in daylight. The switch is active whether the ignition switch is on or off. You'll notice if you hold down the defroster switch with the key out of the ignition it will light up and activate the defogger relay, but a good switch will spring back immediately to the off position and completely disengage the circuit. Holding the switch to the off position eliminated the draim and replacing the switch eliminated the problem completely.
On the fender mounted starter selenoid, there should be no current passing from the battery side large terminal to the starter side large terminal. The current should only pass when the small "S" terminal on the selenoid gets 12V+ from the ignition switch only when the switch is in the start position.
Good stuff! (all of it, I didn't want to quote the whole thing to save space)
After work this evening I removed the stereo and confirmed that all was good. I repositoned the ground becaue it was a bit loose. I checked the lighter and all wired in the stereo area. I then removed every panel that the people who painted my car removed. Nothing out of the ordinary was found.
One thing I did notice was ... With the key out of the ignition, I would turn on the ignition swith as if I were starting the car. I wiggled it to see if loose, etc. Well - when I push in and up as to start the cart I can make the door ajar ding, ding, ding go off. My door happened to be open and the ding is of course normal when the key is in. Not sure if it is relevant. The ignition switch was changed only a matter of months ago by professionals.
Last Tuesday, before getting the new battery … I got off work, got jumped, and headed home. I put the windows down and when I tried to put the driver side window up, it would not go up. The next day at work I replaced the switch and nothing. I then took the window motor out and tried it while not under load. It worked. I checked all connections and wires and reinstalled. The window has worked fine ever since. Just another “oddity” that may, or may not be relevant.
All the lights work properly, including turn signals, etc. The hood does not have a light anymore. I have not removed the seats to check the power seat wiring yet.
My rear defogger has had one of the window connections “disconnected” from the window for years and years. It obviously has not worked. I do know what you’re talking about. The actual defogger has been used very little and seems normal… however I will check for sure. I have a spare air control unit I could try.
Is there a way to narrow down where the pull is coming from . . . .Maybe by removing the fuses one by one? That way I could at least narrow the circuit. But, what would I need to do such a thing. I have a volt meter that measures DC. I have never used it, though. I know nothing about electrical stuff.. and my Father-in-law gave it to me as a present.
The py thing is that I do not have time off of work until Wednesday afternoon. I’m not a very patient person. I wish I had some magic Ford dust.
First off, you should have a couple of inexpensive tools.
A digital volt meter and a basic incandesant bulb type test light.
You don't say if the alternator was tested to see if it is charging while in the car or if you took it out of the car to have it tested.
The alternator can be good but not being "turned on" by the voltage regulator when in the car. The voltage regulator must first be "turned on" by the ignition switch.
Does the battery light come on with the ignition in run before you start the car and go off after it starts?
This indicates the alternator is turning on. Assuming this is not a TC with an ammeter instead of a battery light.
The voltage across the battery should go from 12v with the engine off to 14.5 volts with the engine running if the alt. is working.
To check for battery drain with everything off as described by Watchdevil above:
Disconnect the negative battery cable and hook the test light between the cable and the negative battery post.
If it lights you have a drain.
Track down the drain by disconnecting stuff until the light goes out.
I have a volt meter that is not digital. It is new, and has numerous settings. I also have one of those test lights. SWEET.
Good point, the alternator was tested while on the car. The battery light does come on and then go off as normal. The “dummy” light is working.
Great. I will attempt to narrow this thing down. I appreciate all of the responses and help. You all rock.
EDIT: Ok, I just went out and and did the test light test. With the pos connected I touched the tip to the neg and the clip to the cable. The bulb light up like a flashlight. So tomorrow, I will have my wife hold the test light in place while I pull fuses. She's gonna be so happy. :crazy: I'll just put a beer in her other hand and it will be a perfect situation.
I have learned something today. THANKS. Making progress. Nice.
UPDATE:
I did the test light thing... pulled every fuse and such down there. The light never turned off.
Any suggestions on what to try next?
if your interested in fixing this,,
read http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=19254
undo pos batt cable
clip onto pos batt cable
hose clamp your light to pos batt post
light on?
unplug the alternator connectors one by one
light out?
if not,,,,,proceed....
reconnect alternator
undo all secondary ring lugs on the starter relay
light out?
one by one, touch each starter relay wires to starter relay
when light comes on , jot down that wire color.
You might find your replaceable voltage regulator is partially bad.
There is no need to move the light to the positive battery cable.
You can do all that stuff jcassidy suggests with the light where you had it.
the only reason i mention the pos side is because many sub assemblies on the cars have a ground of thier own not dependent on the battery.
if i remove the pos cable, i have more control over the input power and to identify which circuit by taking away its power.
just be glad this drain you have is large enough in ampacity to light up your test light. try chasing a few millivolts of drain around.
There are no grounds independent of the battery.
All current flow must go through the negative battery cable.
I'll see what I can done on that. Thanks again!
naw,, there are plenty of grounds under the hood in addition to the the battery neg. proof is ,, how is it your car will run with out a battery hooked up?,, because it is bonded to the frame below the battery.
example would be the TPS,, its ground is obtained from the engine harness which ties to the heads as well as the firewall.
many parts have ground unto themselves isolated and not depending on the battery ground.
When the car is running the alternator is the power source.
When the car is not running the battery is the only power source and all current flows through the battery.
Maybe it would help if instead of calling it ground we called it the negative side of the power source. The engine block, heads and chassis are all part of the negative side of the power source.
In an electrical circuit(derived from circle) the current travels in a loop. The current goes from the positive of the power source through wire to the load, through the load, through the chassis/ engine block to the negative of the power source, through the power source to the positive of the power source and out through the wire again, and round and round it goes.
When the battery is the power source and you disconnect the negative cable the current can't get back to the negative of the power source and all current flow stops.
Actually the TPS and all other sensors are grounded by the EEC which in turn gets it's ground from the chassis... If you measure the ground on the TPS sensor to block, chassis, or the battery you likely find there is a .1v or more difference... This is why TPS voltage should be measured across the sensor and NOT to the engine... This is why setting the TPS at .99999v and using the engine block for ground will give a false voltage reading...
For all of you nonbelievers out there, here is a little experiment you can try:
With the negative battery cable disconnected (engine not running of course) put a test light between the positive battery post and any grounds you think may be good ones. Does it light up?
Let us know what you find.
You should not get a light. I don't need to check. And if you do, Send me some of your smoke!
With a small enough current bulb you can have a light(but you won't find a test light with that low of current draw bulb)... My TC draws about 20ma with everything off...
Reread my post.
Just trying to do a little DC electricity class.
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I can tell you all that I have certanly learned alot with this. Thanks.
I narrowed it down to the voltage regualtor. Went and picked one up and all has been working fine since.
Thanks for all of the help! I appreciate all of the responses.