Ok guys, I just thought of something. Around last summer I changed out my stock 50mm throttlebody for the mustang 60mm one, but not until today did I think of something that just might be the cause of my "idle rough once after about 3 minutes every start up" problem.
I didn't change out the throttle position sensor. Do I need the mustang one? I mean, appearantly the car will run using the thunderbird one with the larger TB, but will I notice a signifigant difference if I change it out, or was I even supposed to?
Thanks
Matt
i reused my tbird one. that was with the whole HO tb/egr spacer and intake. i needed to readjust the idle stop screw and the tps a little. it runs fine so based on that i doubt its the problem...
Ah, ok. Thanks, I was beginning to think I might have skimmed over a majorly important detail.
Disconnect the idle air bypass electrical plug, turn out the idle screw until it does NOT touch the stop (throttle plate closed), then turn the screw in about 5 turns, start the engine. It will run at a high RPM. Back off the screw until you are reading 675 RPM. Shut off the engine and reconnect the bypass electrical plug. Start the engine, loosen the TPS and check the voltage across the green and black wires with a digital volt meter. Adjust until you read .92-.98 volts. tighten down the TPS screws. Thats it!
Thanks for the info guys. I'm gonna mess around with that this weekend.
Ok guys I finally got around to messing with it and I think I'm on to something. I didn't get it to quit doing the occasional sputtering/hesitating, but I did get the idle to smooth out to like it used to be. Before I go doing what larrycar78 said, how exactly do I got about adjusting the TPS? The screw on the backside of the throttlebody is the only thing I could know of to adjust.
you can take the screw out and elongate the hole allowing for more motion. the tps may be actually hitting your egr spacer and may need to be clearanced. check the idle stop screw also....
Not quite sure I follow you about the TPshiznitting the egr spacer. It just has 2 screws that screw right on top of it and I don't see where it can be adjusted...Maybe you have a pic you could show me?
I've been messing around with it, and decided that before I go trying to recalibrate the whole thing by myself, I'd try a few other simple things. I just don't like the idea of disconnecting everything without someone else in the car to kill it just incase...
Well what I did was I noticed it was idling at about 800 when the car was pretty much warmed up. Well I disconnected the idle air bypass and noticed it dropped down to something that sounded much more correct. Well I connected it back and dropped the idle down to about 600-700 ish and it seemed to run fine. Disconnected the IA valve again for the hell of it and it dropped so much it died.
I took it for a test drive and it ran great. Even my transmission problem cleared up. I was able to drive in OD and when decellerating it didn't kick and downshift hard at 30 MPH. Well I pulled into a parking lot, shut it off, and gave it a few, then started it again. It ran ok, but then started the weird shaky hesitation thing again... The OD problem was back too.
I brought it home, checked a few more things and the idle had seemed to had gone back up a bit. Also, I don't know if this is relevant or not, but when I would touch the TPS, and move it just a hair with my thumb, I heard a strange slight electronic ticking/sparking kind of sound coming off of something mounted on the backside of the strut mount area. Weird.
I set it back again about 600-700ish and it still doesn't seem totally right. I figured I'd see what you guys had to say from there.
Thanks again for all of your input.
Matt
You adjust it with whatever little bit of play/wiggle is available in mounting it as it is now.. it doesn't take a lot of motion to change the voltage. If you still need a little more play, that's when you mess around with it as has been mentioned here. (widening the holes, etc.) But really, the adjustment is a very small action.
Thank you for clearing that up. Well I seemed to have gotten it better...
I just got back in from messing around with it again. I've got the idle to where it sounds like its a hair above 675, just enough to it doesn't sound like its sputtering, smoothed out. I adjusted the TPS turning it clockwise as much as I could (which brought the idle up a bit and it seemed to breathe easier) and then tightened it down. Its not downshifting really wierd at 30 MPH in over drive anymore. How on earth does this have anything to do with the OD problem? Anyways, the idle is still kinda rough here and there, but overall its been a drastic improvement. I'm still not 100% done though. Its still not running like it was a year ago.
Hey, no problem. We all have to go through it the first time with the TPS. ("How the @#$! do you adjust this thing when it just has two bolt holes?!") :D I'll be going through it a few more times in the next month or two, as I'm getting this '88 back together and tinkering with the LSC.
Could you live with the idle being just a little bit higher? Maybe try 800 RPM idle with the TPS right at .98v?
I don't know what to say with the OD thing.. I'm still figuring out my three DOAs err AODs. (going a little off-topic here) If I leave it in OD, it'll clunk when I let off the throttle like many of these cars do.. but if I drive around town in D and let off the throttle, no clunk. I've seen from one or two sites that that is a sign OD is not in good shape.
I get the same thing with the clunk. Sometimes it does it, sometimes it don't. The whole OD downshifting thing being resolved now has still got my scratching my head...haha. I've been driving around in D for the 8 months or so thinking my OD was out...The overall shifting and everything has totally improved. It used to shift HARD and clunky over 45 miles an hour in OD. Not anymore. All because of turning a sensor about 1/32 clockwise...
I guess I could set the idle back up to about 800. Thats about where it was and I assumed that was the problem, but it seems that the TPS out of adjustment was the problem. I want to go out and monkey around with it again now, I'm sure the nieghbors here at the apartment complex probably think I'm crazy for spending my entire evening out there adjusting the idle! haha
Anyways, as always a million thanks to you guys here at this place. you are always a world of help!
Well I'm done for the the day. I really honestly thought I was on to something, but everytime I think I've got it, it throws me for a loop. By process of elimination I narrow down the results to where it seems like I'm on to figuring out exactly whats wrong, but then the variables change. I'm trying to get it down to an exact science to where doing A+B = C, and it works for a few times, and then starts doing something else. :crazy: When I adjusted the TPS I noticed it cleared up the OD problem, and got rid of the hesitation problems. BUT it would eventually start after a while and I had to turn off the car, turn it back on and re-adjust. This worked like 2 or 3 times and then all of the sudden even doing that stopped working. The only thing for sure that has come out of this is that the idle has seemed to smooth out somewhat, but not much. I don't really know where to go next. Meh...
For the TPS adjustment you need a digital voltmeter. Take 2 straight pins and pierce the insulation on the green and black wires coming off the TPS. connect the leads from the volt meter across the pins and the reading should be .90-.98 volts. tighten down the screws. You can try re-checking the idle adjustment as noted above.
We're a few steps past that, larry. :D
Well techinically I never got the exact volt reading on it... I don't have a voltmeter. I just adjusted it up (clockwise)and it seemed to help somewhat. I'll have to get my hands on one then because its still running wierd, and I know it can be running better because it never used to do this, and there was a couple of times yesterday it ran like a dream! Once it even ran better than it ever has and had a lot of pickup. But, then it would eventually start getting screwy. It has yet to do the full shake and sputter routine since yesterday though. All it did this morning on the way to work was idle wierd when I first started it up. Usually it idles up high, and then drops down to normal, but when it went to drop down it went down too far and I had to give it gas to catch it from stalling and then it evened out to about 800 rpm again. I'm wondering if the idle air bypass is bad...is there a way to check? Also the TPS on there isn't all that old. I put a new one on back in 03 sometime.
Tech article from the guys at TCCoA on the correct way to adjust the TPS.
http://www.tccoa.com/articles/engine/index.html#
Otherwise I don't think anyone told you to take a look at the TV cable... you would've had to mess with it on the new throttle body install and it could be the cause of the transmission woes. Here's something on that from both coolcats.net and TCCoA...
http://www.coolcats.net/tech/troubleshooting/shift.html
http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/index.html#
Also to smooth out the idle take the IAC and the EGR off and see what kind of carbon build up has settled there. All you need is a carb cleaner and it'll show you a world of difference. If possible pull the codes from you computer and see if the TPS is really the culprit. Here is an article giving you a step by step for the tests.
http://www.turbotbird.com/techinfo/RetrievingCodes/retrieving_eec_diagnostic_codes.htm
In the "Key On Engine Off" test it will also test the EGR, however many times it will not pick up a problem, and it is a common fault on the 5.0's.
Hope this all helps.
OK, if you don't have a voltmeter, maybe we do need to go a couple steps back to where larrycar is. Oops.
It looks like this (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F008%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=22%2D820) is the new version of my multimeter.. and it's more expensive than I remember it being, at $29.99.. but there's also this (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F008%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=22%2D218) one at $15.99. (and it's buttstuffog, so you could use it to pull codes if you don't have a Check Engine light. Something I can't do with my digital multimeter)
When it comes to the wires, I tend to use safety pins so I can try to hang the tester's leads in the little loops.. frees my hands up to work on the TPS while still getting a reading. It's kinda tricky to hang 'em like that and keep the pins in the wires. Much swearing has been involved.
Sweet. Thanks MDJ1281. Thats a new list of leads I can check out today to hunt this problem down. :) I'm learning a lot here everyday.
edit: Bird351 Thanks for pointing those out. I'm gonna check that out in just a bit.
One more quick question...when swapping out the throttle body for a larger size, is it common practice to have to adjust the TV cable etc?
If it was adjusted properly beforehand AND it was not thrown out of adjustment during the swap there should be no need to. A 50 MM and a 60 MM have the linkage mount in the same location as do most aftermarket Throttle bodies.
If you need to here's how...http://www.txchange.com/aodadj.htm
Alright, well I finally got my hands on a volt meter...
It was indeed set pretty low at around .54 so I needed to expand the hole a bit. After about 30 minutes I got it set to .975, then I unplugged the idle air bypass, unplugged the battery for 30 min to reset the EEC, started it later and set the idle around 800 rpm, turned it off and plugged the IAC back in and it idles great...after it does the shaky hesitation problem thingy, but even that isn't as drastic as it used to be. Once it gets the hesitation out of its system and smooths out, it runs almost better than ever. So yea, its still doing it, but the throttle response and pick up has really improved.
I cleaned out the idle bypass the other day with some throttle body cleaner and it also seemed to help a bit. I'm thinking that either its bad, or possibly the EGR or MAP sensor. Any clues on where to go next? I'm tempted to just replace all three of those with some of my HO conversion funds...
Man, its gettin' hot and humid here in Texas! Its time to get the AC put back in the car, but first I'd like to finish clearing up this problem because running the AC seems to make it much worse. Which brings me to my next point of interest. If running the AC makes the shakey/hesitation problem worsen, does that give a better indication of what the problem is? Also remember, it only does the shakey/hesitation thing once per start up. Once you are driving along and it gets it out of its system, it doesn't do it again until you shut if off. Usually to clear it up, you have to floor it and right around 30 mph it suddenly smooths out. Sometimes it smooths out on its own when waiting at a red light though.
Second thing, is it the same EGR and Idle air bypass on my t-bird as the ones on mustangs? I was going to look for the parts on ebay, and its always easier to find the mustang parts first, but I wanted to double check.
Thanks!
Ok guys, I ran codes on it today using a jumper wire. I did it about 3 times just to make sure because I kept getting a few different numbers. Basically it came down to
92 - EGO sensor problem due to fuel pressure or injectors out of balance/transaxle shift fault.
34 - Canister or EGR valve control circuit or EVP voltage high
13 - RPM idle out of range/low
So what exactly should I do from here? I'm off to do further research until someone responds. ;)
(edit: so basically my idle problem has something to do with the EGR's EVP and or the canister silenoid? thats funny, I noticed the canister making funny ticking noises the other day
also, the 02 sensors in code 92 seem to be somehow related to the OD problem?)
I'd be concerned about the code 34 more than anything. Kind of sounds like the EVP might be shot...that would explain a lot. Whenever there is a stumbling or hesitation problem, the EGR/EVP are usually the culprits. Try changing the EVP and you should see some kind of improvement. Kicking the idle back up will clear out code 13. The code 92 may indicated a bad O2 sensor but try the others first.
Thanks Eric. :) I I swapped out the EVP yesterday evening and things seem to smooth out even more, but still no luck with getting rid of the hesitation problem. Another funny thing is I noticed if you drop in into park when it starts doing it, and then back into drive it seems to clear it up...
I guess the next step is to replace the EGR as well?
I did notice the transmission shifting better in OD. Wasn't as rough kicking into passing gear while over 45 and also didn't buck as bad downshifting at 30 mph, but still noticable. It would be killer to find out that what i thought was a tranny problem really was the EEC out of wack due to egr or o2s. I had 2 brand new o2's put on in spring of last year though when I had the custom dual exhaust put on, and it didn't start doing this till fall of last year. I've had a gut feeling its been the EGR sticking. Is there anyway to check before I go spend the 80 something bucks?
Thanks again, you guys are a world of help!!
Yes, you can clean out the EGR just like you did with the idle bypass valve. The plunger inside should not be sticking; make sure it's freed up. Do this before shelling out ~$80 for a new EGR. Also make sure the gasket is good for it.
I cleaned out the EGR a while back, at the same time I did the IAC, but maybe it could stand another cleaning? I don't think so though.
Today's the first day I ran codes on it since I changed out the EVP, and now its giving me both a 31 AND a 34. Voltage too high and too low? I haven't cleared out the EEC since before though, so maybe the 34 is the old one. Would it be safe to say the EGR is just bad? Also, would it be safe to guess its whats causing my really rough idle/hesitation at low speeds?
I'm also getting a 91 now as opposed to a 92. Can you clean o2 sensors as well?
Also, I found another code list that stated different things depending on your car... I'm not quite sure which ones pertain to me...
34 EVP - (R) EGR did not respond properly during test - EVP
EVR - (O, R, M) EVP sensor is/was high - EVR
PFE - (O, R, M) PFE sensor is/was out of range - PFE
41 (R) System lean - Fuel control
(M) System was lean for 15 seconds or more (no HO2S switching) - Fuel control
This last one here really got me for the code 91. Which one of these 2 would apply to me?
91 (R, M) System running lean - Fuel control
Transmission SS 1 circuit/solenoid problem - Transmissions
I know i'm so close to clearing this all up! Thanks again to everybody whos helping me learn this all along the way.
41 & 91 are for the O2 sensors. Apparently something related to the EGR system is causing your car to run lean. You'd need to figure that out first, and the 41/91 should go away. Whenever you read codes from a scanner, solve the first code and a lot of times the rest of them may go away. Remember that things are related to each other, not necessarily independent. Codes 31 & 34 are difficult...it could be the EGR but it could be other things (cannister purge valve, for example).
Well I swapped out the EGR. Immediate noticable difference. The car seems to breathe/idle better now. But, (yes, there is a but) its still doing the rough idle/shake only once while in drive problem. (I really need to come up with a name for it.) The good news is its not nearly as severe and doesn't cause the car to shake as much. Its more of a vibrate/hesitate now. Open it up and put your foot into it and it goes away.
I did notice that the wiring going to the TPS and EVP has a spot where wire is exposed. It looks a tad rusty and a few of the wire strands are broken. I've got a feeling that this might have something to do with the codes about high or low voltage. But I could be wrong. Seeings as how both O2s are fairly new (only a year for 1 and the other was a year or so before that) I figure I've about eliminated all options aside from the funky wiring issue. It looks hard to repair though. I tried my best to at least get some electrical tape around it to keep it from being as exposed, but its where it T's off and its a pain to get to, especially being as far back down in there as it is. I'm gonna run codes on it again today and see what changing out the EGR did as far as that goes.
As always, you guys are the greatest!
Thanks,
Matt
Now I'm getting codes 41, 91, and 31. Oh what fun!!
EEK!! :repost:
Quoting from the service manual "keep alive memory has stored adaptive factors used by the processor to compensate for component tolerances and wear. If emissions related parts are changed during repair the KAM must be cleared! Severe driveability problems can occur since the correction factor for the old component will be applied to the new component. " The Ford manual recommends removing the negative battery cable for at least 5 minutes. If you replace one component at a time and test run you are going to have to reset the KAM for each component replaced otherwise you'll apply the parms. in memory for the old component. I think the value would be the last valid one before the component failed completely, if it failed completely! Remember the book stressed this procedure when replacing emission related components.
I posted this in another thread I know but thought it might be relevent here too.
Someone here might be able to research and dispute the service manual advice :bowdown: if you do please include references, I'm only learning as fast as everybody else.
:welder: JP
I think I'm going to go ahead and replace the canister purge to see what that does, seeing as how its not that expensive of a part and I'm trying to eventually replace everything anyways... Just to double check though, where exactly is it located? Is it the part on the back of the strut tower?
check the vacume lines. I had the same problem, exept I was running WAY to rich instead of lean. I found several holes in my vacume lines, and the vacume line was off of the map sensor.....
Haven't been able to find any vacuum leaks. Did yours also start about 5 minutes after start up and clear up after a few minutes and then not start again till you restarted the car?
Do these cars have a knock sensor? If so, where is it located?
No knock sensor on the 5.0, HO or SO....
Still haven't been able to get this fixed. Reset the TPS, changed the EGR, new IAC, I'm guessing the fuel pump is fine because I never have trouble starting and it only does it once each drive. I haven't had the time to tear into it but I'm still trying to figure it out... Codes said it was running lean. I just don't get it. Starts up fine, a few minutes later starts to shake and hesitates, either give it a few minutes or put it in nuetral at a light and gun it, and then it smooths out. Won't do it again until you turn it off and restart it. Anybody got an idea where to go next? I'm really starting to get desperate because its been doing it over a year now and I really miss enjoying driving my car...
Don't recall if this has been mentioned, but have you check your coolant temperature sensor? I'm pretty sure that if the coolant wasn't getting hot enough or too hot it could be causing some of youre issues. Also if there are any clogs in the coolant system period that could also cause the problem. I'd also check your O2 sensors and the wires attached to them. Just an idea, hopefully it's might help.
A new lead, excellent! How would I go about checking the temp sensor?
IIRC it's threaded into the thermostat housing, and the plug runs back somewhere else, just follow the wire. As for testing it, I don't have a clue. Stabbing in the dark i'm sure that there's resistance involved. A new "coolant" sensor is about 20 bucks or so, so it's a cheap insurance piece if need be. Another thing i've thought of while typing this is that perhaps your thermostat it's self isn't opening all the way. When was the last time you flushed the coolant system, or possibly changed out the thermostat? Just some vague idea's lofted in your general direction.
It's been awhile since we heard anything. Did any of the radiator suggestions bear fruit? I don't remember you saying if you had a post code tester or that you went to AutoZone and had the codes checked. Have the codes changed any since your last solution?
At this point one has to wonder if you don't have an electronic problem or a signal problem. Why not pull the ignition module/TFI or whatever you have and have Autozone check it. It should be a free check and you can rule out an intermittent problem that could set the computer in a different operating mode.
Your coolant temp. sensor is on the intake itself.
This is from: http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/59.shtml
Engine Air Temp sensor, and Engine coolant temp sensor can also cause this symtom, but with different codes. essentially they read as the wrong tempuratures and the computer tries to warm up, or cool off the engine by changing the idle speeds and if they are bad it reads all wonky and can cause problems. (went through it myself for about 6 months till I changed the engine coolant temp sensor)
I haven't even jacked around with this problem in a while. Things have been pretty tight since last summer so I haven't had any cash to put in the car. Coincidentally thats why I haven't been around here as much... Kinda frustrating when I have/had a lot of plans for this car to watch it sit there and not be able to do anything to it right now.
I did however get new motor mounts, which made this problem 90% less noticable. My motor mounts were gone. Literally. They were collapsed and just sitting there!! It still does the little shakey/lean /hesitation thing, but the whole car doesn't shake as bad. It all depends. If its a cold day it doesn't do it at all. I need to get this problem cleared up once and for all. Thanks for all the input guys.
this adjustment on the t.p.s.....it's for 87 and newer birds and cats ..right?...on my 86 ...ther's no adjustment and voltage check is there?....it's a 3.8 by the way....thanks..