Technical => Engine Swapping => Topic started by: COLVINDESIGN on June 21, 2009, 11:42:25 PM
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on June 21, 2009, 11:42:25 PM
hello, new here.
I just got my hands on a fairly clean 84 turbo T-bird. it has everything except the motor.
Now, since I don't have an engine and turbo-4s go for about 800+ around here, IOW 600 more than 302s, I am most likely going to go with a 302, since I already have a T-5. I might turbo it later (I like the Turbo badges).
Do I need to change the k-member or just the motor mounts? I imagine the wiring harness will need to be changed as well. Are people on here opposed to using MegaSquirt DIY systems? If I can use this, I would fabricate an intake and use ITBs. A later TC hood would be cool to feed it.
I plan on doing a SN95 4wdb 5Lug conversion in addition to some lowering springs, is there a photo gallery where I can see different members cars with different wheels on them? I want to see some 18 inch bullets on a lowered 83-86 bird, not very specific huh?
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: Haystack on June 22, 2009, 01:34:35 AM
Quote from: COLVINDESIGN;279120
hello, new here.
I just got my hands on a fairly clean 84 turbo T-bird. it has everything except the motor.
Now, since I don't have an engine and turbo-4s go for about 800+ around here, IOW 600 more than 302s, I am most likely going to go with a 302, since I already have a T-5. I might turbo it later (I like the Turbo badges).
Do I need to change the k-member or just the motor mounts? I imagine the wiring harness will need to be changed as well. Are people on here opposed to using MegaSquirt DIY systems? If I can use this, I would fabricate an intake and use ITBs. A later TC hood would be cool to feed it.
I plan on doing a SN95 4wdb 5Lug conversion in addition to some lowering springs, is there a photo gallery where I can see different members cars with different wheels on them? I want to see some 18 inch bullets on a lowered 83-86 bird, not very specific huh?
You can use stock mustang motor mounts. The 83-85.5 cougars and birds use the same k-memeber as the mustangs.wiring you can use any 86-88 cougar/tbird with a 5.0 or if you want wire in conectors, you can use a 86-93 mustang 5.0 harness.
If you want to go carbed, it would be alot easier with very little work to change things around. Which ever you decide to do would work fine. You also have basically a mustang length axle and suspension. The control arms and struts are different on these cars. As far as springs go, there are some threads around here you can search to get you exactally the look you want. Mark7 stuff will not clear all rims, so you would want to go sn-95 on your suspensions parts.
The sn95 suspesnion swap is fairly straight forward. You will find all you need and them some from searches here. Alot of people have done this swap, and someone will chime in that knows alot more about it then I do.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: Haystack on June 22, 2009, 01:34:51 AM
oh and by the way, welcome.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: blu84302 on June 22, 2009, 05:12:30 AM
I think it's a great idea!
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: Chuck W on June 22, 2009, 06:56:38 AM
Quote from: Haystack;279126
If you want to go carbed, it would be alot easier with very little work to change things around. Which ever you decide to do would work fine. You also have basically a mustang length axle and suspension. The control arms and struts are different on these cars. As far as springs go, there are some threads around here you can search to get you exactally the look you want. Mark7 stuff will not clear all rims, so you would want to go sn-95 on your suspensions parts.
You got that partly right...
On the 83-86 cars the FRONT control arms are the same as the Fox Mustang. The rear control arms are different (longer) than all Fox and SN-95 Mustang. The SN-95 brake parts (which are the better choice IMO) will drop in with minimal work.
You will use the Mustang motor mounts. Go MegaSquirt if you think you can do it. It's a good system.
Also, I think your engine pricing is a bit skewed ;) but whatever floats your boat.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: bhazard on June 22, 2009, 10:01:13 AM
800 for a 2.3? I think I got mine for like 150.
Look on this board, turbotbird.com, and turboford.net.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: Chuck W on June 22, 2009, 10:25:15 AM
Quote from: bhazard;279155
800 for a 2.3? I think I got mine for like 150.
That's one way folks try and justify the 302 swap ;)
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: blu84302 on June 22, 2009, 03:13:07 PM
^^^^ he's right
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on June 22, 2009, 06:31:05 PM
not really, those are prices found on Craigslist. However, If you add things up, going past the stock hp on a turbo 4 is more expensive than adding hp to a 302. Plus to tell you the truth, I like the sound of a cammed V8 a lot more than a turbo-4.
so will stang lowering springs work? I am going to have to do a lot of searching, I want to lower it about 2 inches and put some 18s on it.
Thanks for the warm welcome.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on June 22, 2009, 08:51:49 PM
Quote from: bhazard;279155
800 for a 2.3? I think I got mine for like 150.
Look on this board, turbotbird.com, and turboford.net.
yeah, there's always that pesky little thing called shipping.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: Haystack on June 22, 2009, 11:15:49 PM
around here the cheapest 2.3 turbo motor I have ever seen was $600 locally. The regular 2.3 you can find at the junkyard, but only out of 2.3 mustangs. overall it is alot easier in alot of ways for me to do a 5.0. I would stick it out with the 2.3 personally though. I have had a woody about them for a while.
And chuck, sorry, I was pretty tired when I typed that up.
Post us up some pics in the user rides section.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: Chuck W on June 23, 2009, 07:01:05 AM
Quote from: COLVINDESIGN;279240
yeah, there's always that pesky little thing called shipping.
There are quite a few turboford and Merkur guys in the Chicagoland area, but again, it's your car to do with as you please.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on June 23, 2009, 02:37:24 PM
Quote from: Chuck W;279316
There are quite a few turboford and Merkur guys in the Chicagoland area, but again, it's your car to do with as you please.
oh, I know, but they apparently think TC parts are gold. I can buy a complete car for a little more than they want for the turbo-4, but I don't have the room for a parts car.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on June 23, 2009, 02:39:01 PM
BTW, my wife has the computer that can get the pics outta the camera and she's laid up (wisdom teeth pulled the other day).
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 23, 2009, 03:12:33 PM
Hey someone from the Chicago area:D. I'm actually in Chicago, not a suburb ;)
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: blu84302 on June 23, 2009, 03:39:55 PM
Front mustang lowering springs work good. The rears were too weak for my taste.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on June 24, 2009, 09:53:47 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;279374
Hey someone from the Chicago area:D. I'm actually in Chicago, not a suburb ;)
I lived there for 5 years, it sucked. I will never live in a congested city like that ever again. The CPD stole my 1981 Mustang.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on June 24, 2009, 09:54:09 AM
Quote from: blu84302;279381
Front mustang lowering springs work good. The rears were too weak for my taste.
whattya suggest for the rears?
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: blu84302 on June 24, 2009, 02:48:29 PM
I'm not sure really. I just put the stock springs back.
Don't laugh at the picture. This was one of my favorite birds. It looked like but was super reliable.
Here is a pic with the mustang lowering springs. And a side by side.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on June 24, 2009, 04:51:23 PM
Quote from: blu84302;279532
I'm not sure really. I just put the stock springs back.
Don't laugh at the picture. This was one of my favorite birds. It looked like but was super reliable.
Here is a pic with the mustang lowering springs. And a side by side.
shoot, that looks like a concours entrant next to some of the cars I've driven.
Well, was the ride bad or you didn't like the look?
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: 1BadBird on July 03, 2009, 06:06:54 PM
Welcome sort-a-neighbor.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: bhazard on July 03, 2009, 07:28:54 PM
Quote from: COLVINDESIGN;279207
However, If you add things up, going past the stock hp on a turbo 4 is more expensive than adding hp to a 302. Plus to tell you the truth, I like the sound of a cammed V8 a lot more than a turbo-4.
Sorry, but how do you figure? You can spend anywhere from $100 for a cheap exhaust, keeping the stock downpipe and running 2.5 inch piping the whole way and a cheap freeflowing ler. Or get a 3in downpipe with 3in piping and a magnaflow or similar for $400 new or like I did go used for about $150 all together. $30 for an air filter and $10-50 to turn up the boost and then youre running probably 25-40hp and 50-60lbft over stock. Throw a t3 on with a few more psi and youre good for what, 300hp?
I think my motor was 150, hell maybe even 100. It had everything except the turbo, distributor, and accessories, which I already had. About an hour drive and it was in the back of my dads ranger.
Sorry, I just have a habit of trying to keep people from going v8. Ruins the car for me.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: Haystack on July 03, 2009, 08:52:46 PM
i-4's ruin it for me ;). I don't know how to look for them I guess. I can find 302's all over everything for dirt. The i-4's are always part of a "souped up dunebuggy" setup. I would really like to try a four eye tarbo.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 04, 2009, 07:31:03 PM
Quote from: bhazard;280874
Sorry, but how do you figure? You can spend anywhere from $100 for a cheap exhaust, keeping the stock downpipe and running 2.5 inch piping the whole way and a cheap freeflowing ler. Or get a 3in downpipe with 3in piping and a magnaflow or similar for $400 new or like I did go used for about $150 all together. $30 for an air filter and $10-50 to turn up the boost and then youre running probably 25-40hp and 50-60lbft over stock. Throw a t3 on with a few more psi and youre good for what, 300hp?
I think my motor was 150, hell maybe even 100. It had everything except the turbo, distributor, and accessories, which I already had. About an hour drive and it was in the back of my dads ranger.
Sorry, I just have a habit of trying to keep people from going v8. Ruins the car for me.
ok, well on the other side, a carb, cam, intake and exhaust and you can also be pushing 300, I had an 82 mustang GT with those mods that was quick.
That's great that you found a 150 dollar turbo motor, if I can find a decent deal I probably will go that route, all the wiring is still in the car. If not, I will go with a 302.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: 86XR7project on July 04, 2009, 09:22:30 PM
I've seen fast versions of both for cheap. Neither is better than the other and trying to argue one over the other is just plain stupid.
Personally I would rather have a stout 302 V8 than a stout 2.3 4 cyl. Yes the guy with the fast as hell 4 cyl is going to be more impressive but the sound of a 302 with a mildly rough idle and a good exhaust gets me every time. I love forced induction motors and turbo fours are cool in my book but I never really thought a 4 cyl could sound all that cool (My opinion, mind you). I can see what COLVINDESIGN is saying to a degree, parts for small block Fords are easy to find and in most cases a little cheaper than 2.3 turbo parts (I.E. swap meets and EvilBay/slist).
Just my .02
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: jangus on July 05, 2009, 08:34:05 PM
If you need to stretch a dollar, and have access to a cheap 302, that's probably the way to go. The 2.3T is my prefered method, but it's not for everybody. Also, if you really don't like to mess with fuel injection, and are possibly short on patience, DON'T go with the 2.3T. As for cheap parts, if you don't mind used, search the classifieds here, over at NATO, and TurboFord. There are lots of good deals on the turbo stuff. But again, decide if it's right for you before you go down the 2.3T path. If you're a carb guy, and don't want to convert your thinking to EFI (hey, some of us don't really want to mess with it) go with a mild carbureted 302. You'll probably be happier in the long run.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 06, 2009, 04:04:29 PM
I've done some crazy EFI NA and Turbo cars in the past, a 600hp plus hp T-type and a 350+ RWHP NA 92 mustang. Also done carbed.
I have tried to join Turboford.net and can't because I use hotmail. I'm not sure what I need to use to join, but I think I need to pay for it. I did see someone posted an ad selling a motor for like 200 bucks in a town less than 5 miles from here, but can't reach him, sigh. He also has a trans for 150, I'd pick them both up in a heart beat if I could reach him. But the ad was placed a long time ago....... yet he did reply on there in June.
I have posted wanted ads here and at four eyed pride, no bites yet.
I just talked to a guy at an all mustang wrecking yard not far from my house, he has 2 2.3L Turbo motors, one he has no idea of the miles or condition, out of an 88 TC and wants 550, the other has aftermarket parts so he is going to part it out. Again, while it may be affordable for some of you guys, it's not so easy to come by here.
I am going to wait a while to see what comes up. I need to get all the ducks lined up (engine hoist, stand, truck).
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: 86XR7project on July 06, 2009, 04:16:45 PM
I have a turbo 4 I could part with if you're interested. 86K miles on it.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 07, 2009, 05:31:13 PM
Quote from: 86XR7project;281197
I have a turbo 4 I could part with if you're interested. 86K miles on it.
sure, be over in a few minutes to pick it up. :burnout:
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: 86XR7project on July 07, 2009, 06:11:11 PM
Sarcasm is not a new concept to me. FYI. ;)
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: bhazard on July 07, 2009, 07:24:58 PM
Go for it man. Youll be happy you did.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 10, 2009, 09:07:56 AM
Quote from: 86XR7project;281341
Sarcasm is not a new concept to me. FYI. ;)
I'm glad it came through in the text, sometimes it doesn't.
I found a guy with 2 TC's an SVO engine and an SVO for sale in Decatur IL, I am probably going to buy one of the TCs and am arranging a delivery. Car has severe rust issues, but runs good. My car has next to no rust, but has no engine.
I just keep wondering who took the engine out of this car :hick: , it is in really good shape. At least I got a bargain out of it.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 10, 2009, 09:10:25 AM
so since I've found a 2.3T for a decent price, I am going to go back to near stock, I'll save the 302 for the next project, possibly a fairmont.
I'm going to keep a few hundred to the side and wait for a clean fairmont of zephyr to come up for sale and just buy it and park it at my brothers house. Just don't tell my wife!
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: Chuck W on July 10, 2009, 10:11:21 AM
Excellent!
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: jangus on July 10, 2009, 01:28:39 PM
I gotta go with Chuck on this one. I find it a lot more tolerable to tear up th 87/88 cars simply because of availability. Glad to see you're going to go back to the 2.3T in your four-eyed 84. Just curious, what year TC are you purchasing for your donor?
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 10, 2009, 04:41:36 PM
Quote from: jangus;281631
I gotta go with Chuck on this one. I find it a lot more tolerable to tear up th 87/88 cars simply because of availability. Glad to see you're going to go back to the 2.3T in your four-eyed 84. Just curious, what year TC are you purchasing for your donor?
it's an 88,
I just sent the email confirming he will bring it out to me tomorrow, so it's a done deal.
I do want to preserve the TC as much as possible, I will probably do a turbo, intake exhaust and the SN95 spindles up front, and switch to 5 lug in the rear. since it has no seats, I am checking Craigslist as much as possible to find some nice seats for it. I was looking at a set of red leather seats from a S2000, but I am going to see what else comes about.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 10, 2009, 04:42:47 PM
oh, I am not sure if I am going to put the vented hood on the 84 or not, I might want to go FMIC so I'll probably keep the plain hood for when I do.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 12, 2009, 10:17:26 AM
car was delivered yesterday, now I need to figure out what all I need to change when I swap the motor, probably not much at all.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: ipsd on July 12, 2009, 09:08:08 PM
Guess what I have and 84 turbo coupe and it has many upgrades. I believe that to install your 88 2.3t in your 84 you will need to do some minor things. If you want to use the 88 intake you will need to find and 86 fuel rail. Then you will need to swap the TPS connector either the harness or the car side. Then you will need an 86 PC or PC1 ECU unless you are planning on a Tuner. With minor rewiring you can use the 88 3g style alternator. Might also want to use the Dual rad fan setup also.
That is it off the top of my head Stuckman
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 12, 2009, 10:34:59 PM
well, I have the complete 88 TC, I'm sure for the most part whatever I need to swap can be pulled from the 88. I mean, since I am using the 88 intake why not use the 88 fuel rail? Or do you need to use the 86 fuel rail to use the 84 ECU? I definetely want to keep the dual fan radiator set up. I'm still thinking of the megasquirt I kit. I'm not going too crazy with the car, but I do want 300 RWHP.
I'm planning on getting the engine into the 84 and getting it all wired and running, repair small things as needed and swapping the rear from the 88 into the 84 to get the 8.8 and disc rear. However I am still looking at an LSC rear to get vented 5 lug discs and the SN95 spindles up front with the cobra conversion, then I can run the Bullitts like I want to. Then it will be a header and watching CL for a turbo, then injectors and FPR and pump... etc etc..... But anyway, for right now, I want to get the 84 running. Then I will worry about upgrades when it is on the road.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: jangus on July 13, 2009, 09:04:26 AM
Unless there was changes in the way the fuel hoses from the rail to the chassis hardlines hookup, I don't see why you couldn't use the 88 rail. As far as using the 84 ECU, why the h*ll would you? It limits you to a small VAM and 30# injectors. The 88 ECU would be a muc better choice for performance. It should also be capable of seeing you through to 300 rwhp, it uses the large VAM, 35# injectors, and has a faster processor. It simply has too many benefits not to use. Do a search over on TurboFord.net to get the skinny on using the 88 ECU in an earlier chassis. You'll also find the knowledge base over at NATO to be quite helpful. I know I do.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 13, 2009, 04:53:42 PM
Quote from: jangus;282011
Unless there was changes in the way the fuel hoses from the rail to the chassis hardlines hookup, I don't see why you couldn't use the 88 rail. As far as using the 84 ECU, why the h*ll would you? It limits you to a small VAM and 30# injectors. The 88 ECU would be a muc better choice for performance. It should also be capable of seeing you through to 300 rwhp, it uses the large VAM, 35# injectors, and has a faster processor. It simply has too many benefits not to use. Do a search over on TurboFord.net to get the skinny on using the 88 ECU in an earlier chassis. You'll also find the knowledge base over at NATO to be quite helpful. I know I do.
Yeah I am already a member, that's where I found the 88 for sale.
I was planning on using the 88 ecu until I get a Megasquirt.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: ipsd on July 13, 2009, 04:57:12 PM
You need to use the 86 rail due to the style of fuel line hook up. 83-86 had those clips to hold it on. 87-88 gas those spring lock style connectors. Then I never said use an 84 ECU I said to find an 86 PC or PC1 ecu. Yes the 88 it a bit quicker processor but you have to repin the ECU connector to make it work right. With the 86 PC or PC1 processor it plug right in. Then you also get the 35lbs injectors programed right in. As for the air meter maybe you need to look more into it. I've been running the Big VAM with my PC1 and 35lbs/hr injectors for several years now no problems. Then internal circuits of the Large and small VAM are identical. So before you start slaming other make sure you have your facts straight. I guess we now know who has really done the searching over at turboford.
Stuckman
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 13, 2009, 05:22:12 PM
Quote from: ipsd;282053
I guess we now know who has really done the searching over at turboford.
Stuckman
Maybe so, but unless someone wanted to swap a PE processor for the LB2 or 3, I'd sure as hell be swapping fuel lines and repining the connector... I've swapped the 2.3 lines on mine for 5.0 stuff, no biggie when the engine is out of the car...
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: jangus on July 13, 2009, 05:47:09 PM
Thanks for the info on the fuel rail differences. Never knew until now. Learn something everyday. IPSD, I wasn't attacking you for the 84 ECU, I merely mentioned (after reading Colvins post about using it) that the 88 ECU has more advantages, and is well worth the time to repin the connector for. As far as using a Large VAM with a PC or PC-1 ecu, I never said it wouldn't work. It's still not correct, and it surely isn't functioning properly. Acceptably, but not properly. The Large VAM is 20% larger than the small VAM. It has a higher air flow versus voltage signal output than the small vam. The PC and PC-1 computers are going to see a certain voltage, and pull the corresponding airflow from the internal table, and it'll be a lean mixture because the ECU doesn't know you've put the larger VAM, with corresponding greater airflow, in the car. You may have it running, but unless you've compensated with a higher base fuel pressure, you're running lean. Lean means hot, and no one wants that with a detonation pr0ne turbo engine. Now, I in no way personally slammed anyone, especially you. You got defensive, and accused me of not being capable of, or smart enough, to use the search function over at Turboford. That I take personally, as it was clearly meant personally.
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: ipsd on July 14, 2009, 10:08:21 AM
Quote from: jangus;282063
As far as using a Large VAM with a PC or PC-1 ecu, I never said it wouldn't work. It's still not correct, and it surely isn't functioning properly. Acceptably, but not properly. The Large VAM is 20% larger than the small VAM. It has a higher air flow versus voltage signal output than the small vam. The PC and PC-1 computers are going to see a certain voltage, and pull the corresponding airflow from the internal table, and it'll be a lean mixture because the ECU doesn't know you've put the larger VAM, with corresponding greater airflow, in the car. You may have it running, but unless you've compensated with a higher base fuel pressure, you're running lean. Lean means hot, and no one wants that with a detonation pr0ne turbo engine.
Yup you are right. I did have to turn up fuel pressure. I also keep and eye on things by watching my gauges. So lean won't happen. Then sorry if we both got things twisted. Guess we both have our points to make and were kinda caught up! Oh well happens. Sorry if you think I was insulting you. I was never out to make it sound like that. I sir never had the benefits of turboford.net until 3yrs after my initial build. All I had to go on is what I could find to old fashioned way. Word of mouth. Then living in Mid mo finding anyone with knowledge of 2.3t and turbo coupes was limited. I did find one guy Bill Waters that has 30-40 turbo coupes and he pointed me in the right direction on where to get info. Witch back then was on the phone with http://www.tinyavenger.com/ Not sure they even had a site back then. Anyhow. Have fun turn up the boost eat those stangs and worry those vettes. Then make them lower there heads in shame cause they just got waxed but a fourbanger!
Stuckman
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 19, 2009, 10:02:47 AM
well, I've started tearing down the 84 to get it ready for the rear end swap and for a POR-15 treatment. It looks pretty good overall.
The bad thing is, the 88 looks pretty good too other than those frame rails. I might just need to keep the 88 until I'm done with the 84 and then go real radical with it, Tubular frame from front to back, even cutting out the rear subframes and raising the rear suspension, and going with an all custom front suspension in order to really slam it down and still have room for something big. Anyone done a pro-touring aerobird yet?
Title: 302 into 84 turbo
Post by: COLVINDESIGN on July 26, 2009, 03:17:41 PM
Quote from: MAYLONE01;283897
I have a 83 tbird with a 351w in it now i bought a 88 turbo coupe with a bad motor. I want to put the 351 into the 88.what about the cross member and motor mounts. Tne 83 had a 302 in it so the 351 went right in.what will i have to change
you should probably start your own thread, also do some research, do a search of the site and I'm sure thise topic has been covered.