Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: odie12372 on June 08, 2009, 10:04:42 PM
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 08, 2009, 10:04:42 PM
I have an 87 cougar 20th ann. edition. 5.0.... Not sure what the deal is... Yall helped me figure out what was wrong with my cougar a few months ago... When the TFI module was bad.... Well the same issue is happening but, I'm not loosing fire this time... Engine is cutting out... real bad.... I run a koeo (key on engine off) test nothing but the number 11 kept coming up.... So I ran the koer ( key on engine running test.. I got 12 and 16 first.... and that was it... knowing there is an issue somewhere ..... with the test still going I opened up the throttle wide open and the engine starts cutting out... then the computer throws this code at me... 77... No where in my book is there a 77 listed for an engine code for my year model .... there is a 77 listed for the turbo cars... could this apply to mine? I ran a fuel pressure test... 30lbs... ran it at wide open throttle. Pressure went nuts. gauge was all over the place.Fuel pump is only 18mths old, strainer replaced when pump was put in.. Changed fuel filter at the same time.. then a year later changed it again.. Tps sensor is new. I just don't know where else or what else to check..
Title: tps sensor
Post by: odie12372 on June 09, 2009, 08:25:02 AM
how do you test a tps sensor? what should it ohmn out at ? Tps sensor is new doesn't mean it's not bad...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: Ductape91 on June 10, 2009, 03:22:07 PM
you never got a code for the PIP(code 22 i think), right? shot in the dark here on your fuel issues... im guessing fuel pressure regulator. other than the injectors its the only other component of the fuel system you havent replaced. ill dig into my snap-on book im sure ive read this issue in there before.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 10, 2009, 06:45:00 PM
I put the old tps sensor back on it yesterday.... computer throwed code 23...... I reset the codes and put the newer one back on it and it still throwed code 23 again and 77 at wot(wide open throttle). Any Info would be greatly appreciated...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 10, 2009, 07:07:25 PM
It's never going to begin to run correctly till you get the TPS code issue fixed... Agreed code 77 isn't listed for the 5.0, but that isn't you issue, fix the 23 and retest, 77 will likely disappear as well... If you didn't have a code 23 before you started swapping parts(you stated KOEO passed in the first post), you now have two problems...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 10, 2009, 08:33:42 PM
I just went to autozone and exchanged the tps sensor for a new one... since it was still under warranty.... Installed it in the parking lot.... Got out on the road still the same issue... The longer the car runs the issue gets worse.. But, it seems weather related... This originally started last summer.. When it was real hot it cut's out real bad.. to the point to where you would barely touch the throttle and it would cut out.. But, during the winter it never did it.. Unless I drove none stop all day long... Then it would eventually start doing it again... Let me go check the codes again...See if that stopped code 23....
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 10, 2009, 09:37:24 PM
ok just went out and checked the codes again... and 23 wasn't one of them... (Koer) key on engine running ... 12, 13 , 16 were my codes.... When I went to wide open throttle .... engine still cutting back... It throwed code 77 again.... (Koeo) Key on engine off 11 was the only code it throwed at me... You said that the fuel pressure regulator is really the next logical option.. I agree.. but, to replace it I'll have to remove what to change it? The throttle body? Thank you (FORD) for putting it in such a respectable place...HA HA
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: booksix on June 10, 2009, 10:14:18 PM
Just so you know, you can't just change a TPS in a parking lot. You need to install it, connect a multimeter and adjust it to the right voltage. Also, is 30 psi in spec for that 5.0? I know the HO's are up around 39 psi...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 10, 2009, 11:39:05 PM
Well Maybe by Ford's standards your not supposed to change these in a parking lot.... But, I'm not a Ford Technician . I have two manuals I go by.. I have Chiltons which supplies some technical info. And from what you are telling me Chilton's says thats a test not an adjustment.... and Haynes which don't give many special instructions... other than take to Ford.(that won't happen) Sorry, not trying to be a smart a**.. Explain to me your procedure and I will give it a shot..... Can't hurt to try it... It can't do anything but, help.. as far as the fuel pressure your right.. going by haynes it says around 39 lbs. Chilton's is telling me between 30/40...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: booksix on June 11, 2009, 12:12:25 AM
Its pretty easy. The bolt holes on the tps are actually slotted (maybe just one of them) so it can be moved back and forth while the bolts are loose. You'll need to test between the green and black wires (I believe, someone confirm). Place your positive multimeter lead on the green and negative on the black. You want to move the sensor until you read just around .98 volts. Once you hit that, tighten the bolts making sure not to move the tps and retest it once its tightened.
If this is set wrong the computer will not be able to get the air/fuel mixture, as it relates to the throttle, correct. I believe you'll also need to set your idle adjust screw before adjusting the tps because the idle screw will vary the sensors voltage.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 11, 2009, 12:20:29 AM
And your setting this adjustment with switch on to achieve .98.... or is the green wire live all the time?
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: booksix on June 11, 2009, 12:39:30 AM
sorry, good point. Ignition in run, engine off. But I think the motor should be up to temperature....? Doesn't seem like it'd matter but I seem to remember this being important. Or maybe I'm thinking of something else. Either way, it can't hurt! :hick:
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 12, 2009, 12:38:45 PM
I got out there today readjusted the idle and got the tps set at .98 volts.... at first i thought you were crazy.... because when I took my meter out there at first I got no readin g from the green and black.. Finally, I kept trying and finally got it right..I guess.. It's set at .98 now.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: Haystack on June 12, 2009, 03:33:58 PM
Hows it run now? The IAC can also affect idle. I first would change the fuel filter, then I would test the fuel pressure with a pressure tester. There is no reason to throw parts that won't fix your problem in.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 12, 2009, 06:47:43 PM
Quote from: odie12372;277273
I got out there today readjusted the idle and got the tps set at .98 volts.... at first i thought you were crazy.... because when I took my meter out there at first I got no readin g from the green and black.. Finally, I kept trying and finally got it right..I guess.. It's set at .98 now.
What you do is run a chainsaw file up in the holes to oblong them. rotate tps with bolts in and dial in something as low as possible around .6 - .9 vdc
You can lay a dozen new TPS's on the counter and check the resistance from the black to orange,,, all will read way off from one another. The total resistance of the black to org wire is the key to a finer signal back to the eec (in my thinking process).
All my OEM TPS sensors total resistance are well above 4.7kohms while the aftermarket ones I have range from 4.2k up to 4.6.
Also, check for a nice blue spark tonight,, if you dont have a whitish blue spark with no orange,, the the stator or hall effect sensor is good inside the dizzy as well as the TFI. WE talked about the Hall Effect before.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 12, 2009, 11:54:57 PM
the tfi module is new..It's not an ignition issue.. I did go out and change the fuel filter again... Tested the fuel press after I reprimed the system. Switch on engine off 40lbs. engine running 32lbs. I've got a 20 mile drive in the morning .... I'll see if the filter helped .... but. I know probably didn't... It didn't help the last time I changed it.... But I gotta try something.... Before I go nuts...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 13, 2009, 01:47:10 AM
testing the fp with the car sitting there is just part one of two tests.
you are not completely simulating the problem.
drive the car with the guage taped to the windshield and record the lowest presure you can see.
example for an aod transmission- watch fuel presure drop as each gear tops.
anythign lower than 20psi would concern me. This is test the fuel delivery under a load. its also a shop manual test.
I am not saying your fuel delivery is bad, just commenting. I have read your original post a couple of times to get my head around what you have going on. -------------------------------
I am interested in this problem but it is going to help you you explain in a little more detail what you call 'cutting out"
while in drive while in park as soon as you shif to d or what.
Once upon a time i had a symptom of my engine going low on rpm and cutting out shifting from P to R or D. Later i ran the car without a belt and threw it in reverse and the car stayed running. root cause failure was = after car warmed up, friction to the faulty shaft bearings of the smog pump was nearly locking up the smog pully. This inerperted as more load demaind on the engine and the idle would not track and keep the car running right. If it did run at all the r's were so low it would darn near cut off. everything was fine on on a bone cold motor.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 13, 2009, 06:59:52 AM
I hear ya.. The longer I drive it in one hot day the worse it gets... you can't wind through the gears anymore.. when the motor is cool the engine starts cutting out between 2500 & 3000 rpm.In any gear.. After a 20 mile drive (to work or from work) It's around 2200rpm to 2000rpm that it starts cutting out.. Now on my way home from work which is hotter than it was in the mornings. By the time I get home it's down around 2000/ 1800 rpm.when it starts doing the cutting back.. Somedays it's less than 1800 rpm.... Now when the car is good and hot from that drive I can sit with it in park and slow rev the throttle and attain 4000/4500 rpm before it starts cutting out... but when I stomp the throttle and hold it to the floor. by the time my foot hits the floor @ wot it's already cutting out... Thats when it has threw the 77 code when running eoer test. There is someday"s that I feel as if I have no pedal at all.. Could my tank not be venting. Could my gas cap be bad? Or the vent in the tank?
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 13, 2009, 01:06:56 PM
usually fuel pumps are come and go bad / good. I have had the one that "was going bad" and was able to troubleshoot it to be the problem but i had to be driving and watchng the fp.
your symptoms dont sound fuel realated but the final test needs done.
You say the spark is fine, (nice and bluish white). Best checked in darker situations.
get it to start doing the problem again but have a pry bar ready to take the belt off. if you think you can scoot down the road couple hundred feet and get back home , it would be a good test to see if that helps. I hope it does , something is going foul more when the engine is hot.
Also, for shiznit and grins, remove your air charge temp sensor and get the following readings with your meter. Clean off the little thermal couple that hangs in the center. If it is covered with a film of grease or soot, it can not change resistance properly to signal the eec.
---------------------- ACT sensor test ,,,feeds the computer Resistance test pin to pin of the sensor (this is a variable resister proportional to temperature
including outside air temp if the motor is cold) at 50degF=58K ohms at 65degF=40K ohms at 180degF=3.6K ohms at 220degF=1.8K ohms =============================
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 13, 2009, 06:37:48 PM
well check this out...I may be eating crow...It might just be an ignition problem....I replaced the fuel filter last night .... still cutting out this morning on my 20 mile drive to greenville sc... then I drove another 15 miles to my final destination.. where the car sat for 6 1/2 hours.. so everything had a chance to cool off somewhat before my trip back home... on the way back home it started cutting out real bad.I had almost no throttle response it was cutting out so bad.... It got to the point where it just cut off... I popped the hood and started checking things...........the first thing I did was pull the rubber boot off the distributor (thinking check something different for a change) popped the clips off and looked in the cap...nothing unusual a little graphite dust.put it back on started the car again.... it revved up all the way so I got back in and took off... And once again the longer I drove the worse it got....so I was able to make it to autozone which is about 10 miles from home.... Where I usually get my parts anyway... I was watching the car idle something told to touch the wires at the tfi module.. I just kind of worked them back and forth and when I did this several times the engine died. Went to restart engine wouldn't fire . wiggled the wires again the engine started... I finally got curious and unplugged the connector all the dielectric grease I put on this connector 3 months ago was completely dried up and hard as a rock... Somethings not right..could there be a negative wire or ground that would cause the distributor to get so hot it would dry up dielectric grease? ok ... put new grease on it started the car up wiggled the wires... the engine died again.. So is there a loose wire in the connector? could the distributor be getting so hot that it's causing the pins in the tfi module to become loose? Ok yall.... yall the experts.... Yall tell me.... I'm eating crow tonight.....
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 13, 2009, 09:09:55 PM
Problem may well be the PIP inside the dist, especially since you said it was generally OK in cold weather... Best to sub a known good dist for this one...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: booksix on June 13, 2009, 10:44:21 PM
Hey Scott, can you tell us more about your input on the TPS adjustment? I always read on mustang sites (this being 5.0 HO settings) that you wanted it as close to 1 volt as possible without actually hitting 1 volt or above.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: Ductape91 on June 13, 2009, 11:22:51 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;277507
Problem may well be the PIP inside the dist, especially since you said it was generally OK in cold weather... Best to sub a known good dist for this one...
why go thru the effort of substituting a known good dizzy when the PIP sensor is less than 20 bucks and can basically be changed on the car(or if you yank the dist. like i did it took less than an hour).
temporarily rotating the distributor, or more specifically the TFI away from the radiator hose made little difference. just to see if the TFI was getting heat soaked mind you, i dont think on his 5.0 thats an issue though. but, if it was his PIP sensor he should still be getting a code for it. as for the wiggle test you did on the TFI wires you might want to look into that.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 14, 2009, 12:00:02 AM
Who is scott?
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 14, 2009, 12:03:10 AM
I did get two codes ... I just happen to have my jumper in my pocket to retrieve codes.. code 14 ..... code 18.... Could the wires in the (tfi) connector bad? I mean ford was kind of known for unreliable connectors back in the 80's... Can I change the pip without pulling the distributor?
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 14, 2009, 12:36:44 AM
Instead Of changing the pip sensor... Wouldn't it be better if I just replaced the distributor ... you have to remember this car has 210,000 miles on it and 98% of this car still has original parts in it.... I just changed the original plastic coated timing chain and gears a few months ago... Sometimes your better to replace stuff instead of repairing stuff.. Plus... Did the 5.0 cougars come with cast iron gear on the distributor... or a steel gear ?
"Also, for shiznit and grins, remove your air charge temp sensor and get the following readings with your meter." I replaced the act sensor a few months ago.....
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: booksix on June 14, 2009, 12:56:32 AM
Quote from: jcassity;277363
What you do is run a chainsaw file up in the holes to oblong them. rotate tps with bolts in and dial in something as low as possible around .6 - .9 vdc
You can lay a dozen new TPS's on the counter and check the resistance from the black to orange,,, all will read way off from one another. The total resistance of the black to org wire is the key to a finer signal back to the eec (in my thinking process).
All my OEM TPS sensors total resistance are well above 4.7kohms while the aftermarket ones I have range from 4.2k up to 4.6.
Also, check for a nice blue spark tonight,, if you dont have a whitish blue spark with no orange,, the the stator or hall effect sensor is good inside the dizzy as well as the TFI. WE talked about the Hall Effect before.
Scott is the guy talking about the TPS settings...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 14, 2009, 04:20:06 AM
Quote from: odie12372;277495
well check this out...I may be eating crow...It might just be an ignition problem....I replaced the fuel filter last night .... still cutting out this morning on my 20 mile drive to greenville sc... then I drove another 15 miles to my final destination.. where the car sat for 6 1/2 hours.. so everything had a chance to cool off somewhat before my trip back home... on the way back home it started cutting out real bad.I had almost no throttle response it was cutting out so bad.... It got to the point where it just cut off... I popped the hood and started checking things...........the first thing I did was pull the rubber boot off the distributor (thinking check something different for a change) popped the clips off and looked in the cap...nothing unusual a little graphite dust.put it back on started the car again.... it revved up all the way so I got back in and took off... And once again the longer I drove the worse it got....so I was able to make it to autozone which is about 10 miles from home.... Where I usually get my parts anyway... I was watching the car idle something told to touch the wires at the tfi module.. I just kind of worked them back and forth and when I did this several times the engine died. Went to restart engine wouldn't fire . wiggled the wires again the engine started... I finally got curious and unplugged the connector all the dielectric grease I put on this connector 3 months ago was completely dried up and hard as a rock... Somethings not right..could there be a negative wire or ground that would cause the distributor to get so hot it would dry up dielectric grease? ok ... put new grease on it started the car up wiggled the wires... the engine died again.. So is there a loose wire in the connector? could the distributor be getting so hot that it's causing the pins in the tfi module to become loose? Ok yall.... yall the experts.... Yall tell me.... I'm eating crow tonight.....
well,,,,,,,, just so you know, i had to figure out why this stator went bad. I decided to post a thread here and as whats inside that big curved piece of smooshy ruberish plastic. what i found was that the black wire was soldered to the metal mounting and acts as a heat sync and a ref ground. In the pic below there was much corrosion that appeared to be associated with heat due to the metal discoloration on the exposed side. The reason for my post is to also let you know that the black wire solder job was bad and the black wire was only attached by 2 of the 15 or so strands. This stator was only a few weeks old. could still be the stator. Remember your tfi plugs into this thing so the TFI and the stator work together. It seems you are saying the wires are jacked. I would get a magnifying glass and fiddle inside the TFI conn with a jewlers screwdriver and mess with the contacts so they grab the tfi better.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 14, 2009, 04:33:57 AM
Quote from: booksix;277522
Hey Scott, can you tell us more about your input on the TPS adjustment? I always read on mustang sites (this being 5.0 HO settings) that you wanted it as close to 1 volt as possible without actually hitting 1 volt or above.
I dont have an answer,,,,,,,but tom might. what i do know is that if i simply mount a tps per is existing holes, then turn on my key, i always have over a volt. THis means i have less voltage drop across the TPS when I apply WOT position at the trottle body.
so......I file the holes in the correct direction so you can rotate the tps ccw and button it down. When i do mine, I dial in the least voltage that achieves the max at WOT.
On thing that Seek was saying that I dont agree with is the TPS coming with oval holes already. At one time the TPS had both holes oval so that you can dial in the voltage. If anything, the tps holes are too large for the bolt. For many years, all your aftermarket TPS has one round and one oval. WHat the hell good does that do anyone. I understand what he meant though and he is dead on. Most people just put em on and run which works as wel. Im not technical in how much power loss or pulsewidth modulation is lost when the tps max voltage isnt achieved as it is proportional to the gas pedal location.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 14, 2009, 08:01:53 AM
Quote from: booksix;277522
Hey Scott, can you tell us more about your input on the TPS adjustment? I always read on mustang sites (this being 5.0 HO settings) that you wanted it as close to 1 volt as possible without actually hitting 1 volt or above.
I've set the TPS voltage everywhere but upside down and it isn't critical at all... Anything from .85v to .95v is fine(I've run as low as .55v with no issues)...
The idea is to get the EEC in the acceleration mode as quickly as possible, but if you can tell the difference in 1 or 2* of throttle body shaft rotation, your ass is more sensitive than mine(or the time slips from the drag strip)...
TPS or fuel ain't likely the problem, I'm betting it's iginition...
Quote from: Ductape91;277534
why go thru the effort of substituting a known good dizzy when the PIP sensor is less than 20 bucks and can basically be changed on the car(or if you yank the dist. like i did it took less than an hour).
Please explain the process of changing the PIP with the dist in the car...
Title: Bluish fire
Post by: odie12372 on June 14, 2009, 01:07:46 PM
Quote from: jcassity;277463
"You say the spark is fine, (nice and bluish white). Best checked in darker situations."
Where am I supposed to be looking for this bluish/white fire? Is the engine supposed to be running for this? is it supposed to be up to temp.. do i take the cap off and look in it while someone spins the motor?
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: Ductape91 on June 14, 2009, 02:47:04 PM
perhaps i did jumped the gun on this as i didnt consider the differences between a v6 and v8 distributor. last i remember they werent too different on the inside.
remove distributor cap remove the rotor locate the two bolts holding down the metal slotted thing(i cant remember the technical name) remove the two bolts and remove to gain access to the PIP module remove the two bolts retaining the PIP module remove the PIP module installation is reverse of removal
is this wrong? if so will i have my ghetto bus pass revoked?
pulling the distributor requires you to punch out the pin holding the gear on(which you should replace if you do) to remove the shaft inorder to gain access to the PIP sensor. maybe this method is easier for you but i didnt have a timing light(i do it all by feel/sound) so i would like to pull the distributor as little as possible. plus it was less likely i would mess up the rubber o ring for the shaft.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: Ductape91 on June 14, 2009, 02:52:29 PM
Quote from: odie12372;277679
Quote from: jcassity;277463
"You say the spark is fine, (nice and bluish white). Best checked in darker situations."
Where am I supposed to be looking for this bluish/white fire? Is the engine supposed to be running for this? is it supposed to be up to temp.. do i take the cap off and look in it while someone spins the motor?
your spark plug he means, he means your spark plugs should be firing a bluish white spark. yes, your motor should be running for this:P you could rent a calibrated igniton tester, free at autohole(deposit) i never do the old "touch the motor with the spark plug" test.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: softtouch on June 14, 2009, 03:16:16 PM
Quote from: Ductape91;277690
pulling the distributor requires you to punch out the pin holding the gear on(which you should replace if you do) to remove the shaft inorder to gain access to the PIP sensor. maybe this method is easier for you but i didnt have a timing light(i do it all by feel/sound) so i would like to pull the distributor as little as possible. plus it was less likely i would mess up the rubber o ring for the shaft.
This is the only it can be done on my 84 3.8 with the bolted on rotor.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 14, 2009, 04:09:27 PM
Quote from: odie12372;277679
Quote from: jcassity;277463
"You say the spark is fine, (nice and bluish white). Best checked in darker situations."
Where am I supposed to be looking for this bluish/white fire? Is the engine supposed to be running for this? is it supposed to be up to temp.. do i take the cap off and look in it while someone spins the motor?
I unplug an easy plug to get to stuff an old plug into the boot lay the boot up on the strut tower unplug fuel pump relay back in the trunk this will prevent fuel delivery while doing the next step make sure spark plug is just touching the strut tower
reach in window and crank engine if your outside, its easy to see the bluish white spark at night, or kill lights in garage.
for the stator replacement,, ducttape91 is right.........
with a marker mark the dizzy housing directly across from where rotor button is pointing. this prevents you from having to do top dead center number 1 steps remove dizzy hold down bolt / clamp on engine. plull up on dizzy housing and jiggle rotor button to help it out as the center shaft rotates as you lift. **CAUTION,, its likely your oil pump shaft will stay in the engine if the dizzy has not been removed before. If the hex shaped long shaft comes out with the dizzy, let us know. remove dizzy punch out the roll pin holding the dizzy gear good luck getting gear off (i have one method that works every time although its controversial sp?) once the gear is off, pull center dizzy shaft out remove two bolts holding stator install new stator put dizzy back together Insure you mark your dizzy gear to shaft. the roll pin hole is not installed perfectly center and can go in backwards once the gear is on, drop the dizzy in and reset timing.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 14, 2009, 04:12:13 PM
does anyone know ? did the stock 5.0 non HO come with a steel gear on the distributor or a cast iron gear..... And is 3/32 of in to much play between the shaft and the housing of the distributor? ... I took my largest spark plug feeler gauge .100 won't quite get in the gap around .95 will fit in the gap... 87 non ho came with a roller cam right? I just read somewhere that the stangs with roller cams had a steel gear... and the ones with a regular tappet cam came with cast.... True or false.. it was a stang site i read this at.. I bought an 86 capri... to get the car running I help him pull a stock 5.0 out of a 88 t-bird to put in it so I could drive it home...later I had to replace a head gasket and pulled one of the lifters and it had a roller lifter in it.... but did the 87's have a roller cam?
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 14, 2009, 04:14:43 PM
i think softtouch is talking about a duraspark system. Ford has revisited this concept in years following and i like it. for such a simple part , its location on our EECIV systems is very labor intensive.
like i said, you could be fine, it could just be the connector or contact of the TFI to the STATOR.
A quick remedy if the STATOR contacts are jacked would be to do the following: remove TFI
slightly bend the blades evently across. reinstall TFI this will force the TFI blades to canter forward or back and forcing contact to the Stators' electrical contacts.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 14, 2009, 05:36:07 PM
does anyone know ? did the stock 5.0 non HO come with a steel gear on the distributor or a cast iron gear..... And is 3/32 of in to much play between the shaft and the housing of the distributor? ... I took my largest spark plug feeler gauge .100 won't quite get in the gap around .95 will fit in the gap... 87 non ho came with a roller cam right? I just read somewhere that the stangs with roller cams had a steel gear... and the ones with a regular tappet cam came with cast.... True or false.. it was a stang site i read this at.. I bought an 86 capri... to get the car running I help him pull a stock 5.0 out of a 88 t-bird to put in it so I could drive it home...later I had to replace a head gasket and pulled one of the lifters and it had a roller lifter in it.... but did the 87's have a roller cam?
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 14, 2009, 09:31:41 PM
ALL '86-up SEFI 5.0s use a steel roller cam SO & HO, no exceptions... The 5.0 EFI truck/van engines use a flat tappet cam and have cast iron dist gears up till '94 or so... 3/32" is a whopping amount of slop...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 14, 2009, 10:13:37 PM
Well I ordered my distributor ..... will be here in the morning.... Thanks Oreillys.... Yeah, I figure that was enough play in the distributor to cause it to float... I hope this is it.... Wife is spazzing out over all this money.... I was gonna get it from autozone.... but, it was gonna take 3 days....orielly's said they could have next day.... oh for your information..I bought my tfi module from autozone back at the end of march.... they told me that they can't won't honor the warranties on any electronic parts anymore... They said the automotive industry pulled there warranties.. so autozone can't honor the warranty... if they did they'd lose money.... Aint that some ...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 15, 2009, 10:47:09 PM
Well I got my distributor... installed it.... set the timing.... 1rst test run no cutting out.... came back to the house. wife wanted to go to walmart.. I never cut the car off she hopped in we took off.. got up on the highway (wot) started cutting out.... It wasn't real bad. But, it was cooler tonight.... The real test will be tomorrow on the way home in 5 O'clock traffic.. Plus it'll be alot hotter then... what else can I do or check ... I've gotta fuel pressure regulator... I guess that'll be next....
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 16, 2009, 12:48:26 AM
why are you bringing up fuel now?
you said that was good although you didnt do step 2 of the test.
I know well you paid a pretty penny for that dizzy and if you find out your fuel presure is wrong, man oh man.
Do you have fuel smell or fuel moisture in the FPR?
This would have been discovered earlier if the fuel presure test failed with engine under a load.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 16, 2009, 09:23:35 PM
Last Night I was running low on fuel... might have been what caused it to cut out.. But it didn't cut out this morning on the way to work....I put gas in my car this afternoon and drove it home from work .... No cutting back.. It was 90 degrees here in SC. So it was more than just hot outside..., .. Besides the hose on my fuel pressure tester isn't long enough to reach out side of the hood..... The Distributor was only 64 bucks... It's a reman.. but, the only one they could get next day....
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 16, 2009, 09:34:59 PM
Glad it seems OK, with the fuel system work you'd already put into it, I didn't figure it was a fuel problem... Never seen a fuel problem that was temp related either, usually that's a electronic problem...
Hint... IF you want that fuel pump to keep living, DO NOT run low on fuel... It depends on the gas in the to help keep it cool and lubricate it, I refill mine when it gets around a 1/4 tank...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 16, 2009, 10:20:51 PM
Well, If everything still seems ok in a few days... that'll be my next fix.... Is the Gas gauge... The Digital gas gauge Went out about 3 weeks ago... Filled it up and it's been on empty ever since....... Been going by mileage....
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 17, 2009, 01:29:58 AM
glad your running,,hope it cures the issue.
post up when your ready to look at the gas guage.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 17, 2009, 10:32:41 PM
Well, I was hoping that was it...I drove all the way home from work..I Opened her up more than one time .. It drove fine.. All the throttle response I could ever want...20 miles.... I pulled on to my exit... Stopped at the stop sign ...... Pulled out (WOT).... It wasn't as apparent..... but, at (WOT) you could tell it was slightly hesitant... backed off to 7/8 throttle she cleared up and went on pulling hard.... I know ... I know.... fuel pressure test 2nd stage... I'm trying to figure out how to make the hose longer for my gauge and still be able to use the fittings.... PLus the beltless test as yall spoke of.. I've already got the pressure regulator and throttle body gasket set..... 210,000 miles and 22 yrs. later it's probably time for them to be changed.... One other question... When I installed the distributor...And set the timing When the timing was set the tfi module was a good bit closer to the radiator hose than it was... Is there anyway to adjust the distibutor body to where it'll be farther away from the r-hose? I had friend to suggest to move the body of the dizzy where I want it... then just move the wires around on the cap.... Is this possible?
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 17, 2009, 11:07:26 PM
you can move the body of the dizzy anywhere you want.
you can make any post on the dist cap cyl 1.
yes to what your friend said.
Ill bet your dizzy is off one tooth due to mileage on the timing chain. The cam isnt exactly oriented to the crank exactly right after 10 of thousands of miles. thats where timing adjustment comes in.
I would do the following......... note the rotation of the crank while cranking stuff toilet paper in cyl 1 plug hole bump engine until paper pops out feel for piston using a screw driver use breaker bar to continue rotating engine until.......... the pointer on the harmonic is dead on "0" during this time, the piston was coming up to TDC
now remove the dizzy cap it should be pointing to the number 1 spark plug wire post.
if its not,,,,, make a mark from you dizzy to the intake with a marker make a mark on the top part of the exterior of the dizzy housing where number 1 plug post is positioned. dont mark the cap,, mark the side of the dizzy. remove dizzy hold down wiggle up dizzy just enough to clear o- ring plus a wee bit more you should always have your hand on the rotor button while lifting soon the rotor is able to move left or right freely, you can feel it catch the cam gear. It is also very willing to drop into the spot you removed it from Keeping how far up you lift to a minimum prevents fully extracting the oil pump shaft as well so its not disconnecting from pump. just reseat the dizzy forward or back a tooth. If is a good idea to have a mental head start on which direction you want to drop the dizzy either forward or back. If the dizzy does not want to drop fully into a desired gear slot on the cam, manually move the crank left or right to manipulate that location. insure that your crank on TDC "zero" agrees with where the rotor button points when your done. adjust your base to intake mark eyeball dizzy cap and eyeball if rotor button is now pointing more directly to number 1 plug wire post. this may take a couple of re run tries, but its just the nature of the beast. When you spin a crank on a fresh built motor, the cam almost instantly follows the crank.
before you do all of this,, manually turn your crank till the pointer pointer is at zero. Rotate crank in its normal direction as if the starter were turning it.
now slowly rotate crank the opposite direction move until you just feel it get hard to do move this is the cam shaft finally taking hold by you rotating the crank via the chain. now stop read what the pointer is pointing to in degrees.
thats a pretty good guage on timing chain slack.
lets see what that comes out to be.
Slack isnt realy that big of a deal, can be compensated for up at the distributor. Of course to much wear is bad.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 17, 2009, 11:17:17 PM
The timing chain is new.. it's only 3-4 mths old..I changed it when I did the water pump... still had factory plastic coated gear and timing chain on the car....
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 17, 2009, 11:39:46 PM
then you should have awsome results in checking to see if your off a tooth then.
it pays to take pics of how things were before taking it apart. Helps me remember bolts and brakets ect.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: Haystack on June 18, 2009, 01:34:46 AM
You don't need to extend the gauge, just pull the hood off and use alittle duct tape to hold it up.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 18, 2009, 09:33:18 AM
extender hose just like the shop manual says.
I have a store bought fuel pres guage and a home made setup.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 18, 2009, 09:40:09 PM
Ok .... Just ran fuel pressure test part 2..... Took wife to store... the fuel pressure when my foot was mid throttle was around 35-40psi.. (wot) 30-32psi... While she was in the store... I stayed in the car and left it Idling...it stayed at 32psi....It idled like that for approx. 20-25 minutes... When she came out we took a longer way home so I could really punish the throttle on the hwy. 2nd gear mid throttle 35-40psi... Wot she dropped to 20psi.. In drive same result... I left it in drive all the way up the hwy.. to keep rpm's up... wot fuel pressure would drop to 20psi.. and a couple of time less than that.... Like I've said it seems the longer it ran the worse it got.... When I left work today.. I had to go pick up something... so I had to go 10 mile's out of the way..... So roughly I drove 30 miles home today.. and once again it started cutting out 10 miles from home...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 18, 2009, 10:08:26 PM
Unfortunately you have a fuel supply problem... It should hold 39psi at WOT, for as long as you have the gonads to to keep the pedal on the floor... Probably your 1 1/2 year old pump, that sucks...
Any chance the tank vent is restricted and you are creating a vacuum in the tank??? If this is the issue, you should get a large swooosh when you loosen the gas cap when you are having the problem... Of course if that was the case, your problem would be instantly fixed for a little while...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 18, 2009, 10:13:05 PM
I haven't noticed a swoosh...but, I can can try that next.. I do have a 20 mile drive in the morning.... My wife is about to spazz..... All I can do is replace one thing at a time til it's all new again... HA HA..
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 18, 2009, 10:41:26 PM
What's the chances that the fuel pressure regulator is going bad..... 22yrs. old 210,000 miles.. I have a new one ready for installation.. just haven't had the time to do it..... what's it's purpose anyway? So the injectors don't have to much fuel?
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 18, 2009, 10:42:47 PM
I'm sorry you've sunk money in the dist, but with as much play in the shaft as it had, it was shot anyway...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 18, 2009, 10:44:48 PM
It needed it...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 18, 2009, 10:52:06 PM
The FP regulator compensates for changes in manifold vacuum so there is a constant supply of fuel at the injector tip... When manifold vac is high(idling) it tends to help "suck" the fuel out of the injectors, so pressure is decreased... At WOT when vac is low there is more pressure avail(this is basically a FYI so may have no bearing on your problem)...
Now, at WOT the regulator should bypass all pressure in excess of 39psi back to the tank... Regulator problems are usually a internal restriction, which results in high pressure, but no doubt could cause a pressure loss... Since you have one, change it, couldn't hurt...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 18, 2009, 11:08:20 PM
Thanks I'll get it done...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 18, 2009, 11:19:34 PM
Quote from: odie12372;278588
What's the chances that the fuel pressure regulator is going bad..... 22yrs. old 210,000 miles.. I have a new one ready for installation.. just haven't had the time to do it..... what's it's purpose anyway? So the injectors don't have to much fuel?
9.5 times out of 10 if the fpr is bad,, the rubber diaphram inside will allow fuel to be sucked into the vac line that hooks to it.
shut off car after running remove fpr vac line smell / look for fuel in the line.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 20, 2009, 12:19:28 AM
Ok, this makes no sense... Yesterday... I did the fuel pressure test part2..... It was rather hot outside... And it acted up.... Today I drove 20-25 miles... The car cooled off for a while I did a side job.... When I got back in it to drive it home.... This was around noon.... The heat index hear in SC was around 102 degree's .... It ran fine all the way home... No acting up... About to drive me nuts...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 21, 2009, 12:36:24 AM
Do I have to remove the intake plenom to get to the fuel pressure regulator? I tried removing the throttle body and the dern thing was gaulded on there..... couldn't get it to budge an inch.....
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 21, 2009, 09:20:36 AM
Unless you can figure a way to access those those ed upside down screws, I suspect you'll have to remove the upper intake...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on June 21, 2009, 12:59:46 PM
once upon a time i had a fuel pump that was reading fine in park but under a load, the guage would dip below 20psi at the upper rpms of each gear shift. I installed a super coupe pump (about 40 bux just for the pump) and retested under a load. Presure never went below 30psi at the top rpm of each gear shift. just commenting on your previous post mentioning what you saw.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: Haystack on June 21, 2009, 05:39:30 PM
I changed out my FPR on my 86 cat. It wasn't the problem, but the car idled better and revved quicker. I'm sure it was contributing factor.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 26, 2009, 08:33:06 PM
anybody got a copy of ford electrical schematics for 87-88 cougars?
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on June 28, 2009, 12:41:44 AM
I got the new pressure regulator installed....It does rev up better...... Won't know for sure if that was the problem.... Til monday or tuesday.... When I come home from work.. In the Heat of the afternoons...........
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on July 01, 2009, 07:43:45 PM
Fuel pressure regulator wasn't the trouble... Still does it.... I'm completely stummped... It was cutting out at (WOT)before I turned off the car..... took the belt of this time.....car revved up like it should....put belt back on car revved up like it should..... Makes no sense..... Any chance the ECU is bad? Get's hot or something causing it to forget it's functions? I'm just grasping at straws at this point........ How can you tell if the smog pump is the one causing the trouble? Should the pulley spin freely? Should it have light resistance, Should it be rather tight??? Would it hurt if I bypassed the smog pump? Can I get a shorter belt.... What would it hurt?
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 01, 2009, 09:28:39 PM
I thought the reason for replacing the F/P regulator was because you already had it and it couldn't hurt... The fuel pressure still needs to be tested at WOT... Not revving in the driveway, out on the road where the problem occurs...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: Haystack on July 01, 2009, 10:56:55 PM
for the smog pump, just take it off while your in the autozone parking lot and try a few inches shorter belt. There is also another way to route the belt to take up more slack.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on July 10, 2009, 02:01:18 AM
Odie's last stand...... If this don't work I'm gonna shoot the car ........... What should the fuel pump ohm out at? The one I just pulled out of my tank ohms out @ 1.5 ohms.. (pump is only 18mths old....) New Walbro pump...5.5 ohms... The original pump 45.6 ohms(but thats bad right?)..New pump in the tank... New strainer... I'll know for sure tomorrow...I have a 20 mile drive tomorrow..40mile round trip... I also figured out why my fuel gauge went out... "The float fell off" I found it in the funnel when My son and I drained the tank...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 10, 2009, 08:43:53 AM
You are just measuring the resistance of the motor's armature, which can vary depending on how many segments are are in contact with the brushes... Also varies by the size wire used to wind the armature... I other words, your measurements are mostly useless... Only if it were shorted(near 0 ohms), or open would resistance measurements be useful...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: jcassity on July 11, 2009, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: odie12372;278573
Ok .... Just ran fuel pressure test part 2..... Took wife to store... the fuel pressure when my foot was mid throttle was around 35-40psi.. (wot) 30-32psi... While she was in the store... I stayed in the car and left it Idling...it stayed at 32psi....It idled like that for approx. 20-25 minutes... When she came out we took a longer way home so I could really punish the throttle on the hwy. 2nd gear mid throttle 35-40psi... Wot she dropped to 20psi.. In drive same result... I left it in drive all the way up the hwy.. to keep rpm's up... wot fuel pressure would drop to 20psi.. [COLOR="Red"]and a couple of time less than that[/COLOR].... Like I've said it seems the longer it ran the worse it got.... When I left work today.. I had to go pick up something... so I had to go 10 mile's out of the way..... So roughly I drove 30 miles home today.. and once again it started cutting out 10 miles from home...
seeing a trend here. over time the problem shows back up. the car told you there was a problam per above in my opinion. pump time. get a 1990 SC 3.8L pump kit from advance and install it.
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on July 14, 2009, 12:00:35 AM
Quote from: odie12372;281591
New Walbro pump...5.5 ohms... The original pump 45.6 ohms(but thats bad right?)..New pump in the tank... New strainer...
As you can see .... I already put new pump in the tank... So far so good ...... Go to http://www.coolcats.net they'll tell you not to buy pumps from autozone or advanced... they have a high failure rate... I've learned my lesson....I ordered it from summit. And paid the same price for a whole kit shipping and all.. It Was the same price I paid 18mths ago from advanced just for the pump..
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 14, 2009, 08:14:21 AM
I had a Carter replacement pump fail after less than two years, just quit wouldn't run at all(well to be exact, it ran when it felt like it)... That was back in '01, replaced it with a Walbro, still fine...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on July 14, 2009, 09:51:26 PM
I had heard good things about walbro.... So I bought one.... We'll see.. Now if I can get the digital gas gauge to stop playing games with me... I'll be fine... I'll change the fuel filter tomorrow... I wanted the filter to trap the sedement from the tank b-4 I changed it...
Title: Got a question about engine codes and other general questions.
Post by: odie12372 on July 29, 2009, 07:59:46 PM
Well it's been over two weeks, since I installed the new fuel pump... So far So Good... I waited til last week to change the fuel filter...I wanted to get as much sediment out of the tank as I could... It still has the feeling like something is binding up.. But, it's not stalling out like it was at WOT... There is a slight hesitation in the throttle somewhere... At cruising speed..lower rpm range.. and lightly on the pedal.. an 1/8 or so.. It'll start bucking .... When I mash down on the throttle it goes away? Any Ideas? It seams to do it worse just after the car is started... after you drive a few miles it quits acting up....