Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: mattg on May 20, 2009, 09:24:12 AM
Title: engine cut out
Post by: mattg on May 20, 2009, 09:24:12 AM
Hi- 1986 5.0. I'm 100 miles from home and have tools available except for a scan tool and volt meter. I started it up and after a minute, while it was still idling, it stalled. just cut out. no sputtering or warning of any kind. Now it cranks with no hint of wanting to start. I believe there is spark. I pulled a wire and got shocked when applying a screwdriver. Thats where i left off. any troubleshooting advice?
Title: engine cut out
Post by: daddybair7 on May 20, 2009, 12:06:50 PM
Is the fuel pump still working?
Title: engine cut out
Post by: V8Demon on May 20, 2009, 12:53:09 PM
Pull the oil cap. What do you smell? Sounds eerily like a TFI module.
Title: engine cut out
Post by: mattg on May 20, 2009, 01:15:00 PM
V8 Demon- i'll be tinkering in about an hour from now. what kind of smell, beside oil, would i be smelling if?
daddybair- i hear the fuel pump when i turn the key.
Title: engine cut out
Post by: V8Demon on May 20, 2009, 01:24:56 PM
gas...Sounds like you've turned it over enough to give a strong gas odor if you pull the cap if the injectors are firing.
Title: engine cut out
Post by: mattg on May 20, 2009, 02:46:19 PM
the TFI looks original. i just called NAPA. $117? Unless i'm completely nuts, i thought i read a while back somewhere on theis site that it's like a $40 part. can i relocate this someplace where it doesn't get so hot?
Title: engine cut out
Post by: thunderjet302 on May 20, 2009, 02:52:04 PM
Sounds like the TFI or stator in the distributor.......
Title: engine cut out
Post by: mattg on May 20, 2009, 05:26:40 PM
i'm going to borrow a TFI tool. but are there any special tools i need to know about for doing the Stator? if i do the TFI, i might as well do the stator at the same time. i'm gonna get a ride home tonight and come back tomorrow and pull codes before starting any parts changing.
Title: engine cut out
Post by: V8Demon on May 20, 2009, 05:54:10 PM
$117!!! As per Rockauto:
STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # LX223T $27.79 DELPHI Part # DS10052 $63.79 MOTORCRAFT Part # DY1076 $98.79 ACDELCO Part # F1913A $108.89
I have a Borg Warner one. It was around $50 from Aid Auto Stores. I put a Standard one in my Tempo years ago....it lasted the next 2 years and beyond and was still good when I got rid of that car....
Title: engine cut out
Post by: softtouch on May 20, 2009, 05:55:02 PM
Quote from: mattg;273340
but are there any special tools i need to know about for doing the Stator?
May not be something you want to do alongside the road. You have to pull the distributor and take the drive gear off the shaft so you can pull the shaft out the top. You need a punch to drive the roll pin out of the gear. A puller of some kind to get the gear off. Some way to drive the gear back on. Hard to do without a vise or at least a helper. Make sure the gear goes back the way it came off and not 180° out. Timing light.
Title: engine cut out
Post by: Ductape91 on May 20, 2009, 05:59:28 PM
the only special tool you need is a $2 test light. or if your ghetto you can rig something up for nothing(like the light under the hood) why shoot in the dark, pull codes and see if the tfi or pip(stator) sensor is shot.
fyi, if there is an autozone near by theyll test your old one free. make sure they test it a few times to get it hot.
Title: engine cut out
Post by: mattg on May 20, 2009, 06:44:41 PM
i was definately going to pull codes tomorrow before doing anything.
Title: engine cut out
Post by: mattg on May 21, 2009, 12:25:32 PM
i'm leaving in a few minutes to go back to my cougar. anyone know where i can find a list codes? I thought i saw one on cool cats but i just looked and can't find. what codes should I expect for for TFI and stator? In general, where can i learn more about how to troubleshoot any given code. thanks everyone. hopefully it's just the TFI and i'll be on my way this afternoon.
Title: engine cut out
Post by: CoogarXR on May 21, 2009, 12:56:57 PM
I use http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/ as a reference for codes (about 3/4 down the page).
CoogarXR
Title: engine cut out
Post by: mattg on May 21, 2009, 09:39:52 PM
ok. so i chose overtime that was offered to me instead of fixing my cougar. i only got a chance to pull the codes and push it to the other side of the street. code 23- TPS voltage out of spec- was first. then code 18- no tach signal- came as a past code. TPS was replaced a couple months ago when it was idling funny. ran good ever since. The 18 has to be what caused no start. I'll do TFI first.
for future reference- is there an idiot proofed code guide anywhere? such as "if you get code XX then try the following step. if that step doesn't work then move on to the next step" etc..
Title: engine cut out
Post by: mattg on May 27, 2009, 04:49:36 PM
Hello- i just read at All Ford Mustangs forum that a black TFI is not interchangeable with a grey TFI. The one that i removed from my cougar was grey. the one i installed, sold to me by Autozone, is black. However, the engine runs fine. i cleared the codes, re-tested, and no longer get code 18. do i have anything to worry about?
Title: engine cut out
Post by: V8Demon on May 27, 2009, 05:27:52 PM
Quote
Hello- i just read at All Ford Mustangs forum that a black TFI is not interchangeable with a grey TFI
[SIZE="5"] So if I make one and paint it [COLOR="yellow"]yellow[/COLOR], what then? [/SIZE] Different aftermarket companies make them in different color plastic I would imagine.....
Title: engine cut out
Post by: mattg on May 27, 2009, 05:56:58 PM
ok. i failed to remember that i didn't buy a motorcraft part and that is what the black / grey thing refers to (pin 4 is different between the black and grey). i shoulda thought this thru earlier before typing.
Title: engine cut out
Post by: V8Demon on May 27, 2009, 06:28:32 PM
Interesting. I researched this a little bit and found the following:
And starting at the bottom of page 2 HERE (http://"http://web.archive.org/web/20030411092204/www.carquest.com/techbulletins/engine_controls/tt3q00.CQ.pdf") explains the differences in detail.
Seeing as I always just asked for the one I needed, I never knew about this anomaly. I knew of the difference between the distributor and remote mount mounted ones, but not the pin difference.
From the article:
Quote
IDM is a feedback signal generated by the ignition system and is monitored at pin #4 of the ECM. Its purpose is to diagnose missed ignition primary pulses at the time the ECM commands the Spout signal to fire the coil. Since it is used solely for diagnostic purposes, if this circuit is not operating properly, it will not affect vehicle driveability. Both "Push Start" and "CCD" systems produce an "IDM" signal, however, they do it in different ways. The "Push Start"system uses an external 22K ohm resistor (22,000 ohms) that is usually taped to the wiring harness that is connected to the negative terminal of the ignition coil. This resistor is used to lower the voltage of the Tach signal being supplied to pin #4 of the ECM. This external resistor is not used on the CCD system since it is part of the internal circuitry of the module, which produces the IDM signal. So, the IDM signal travels from pin #4 of the module directly to pin #4 of the ECM. Oddly enough, the "Start" pin on the "Push Start" module is the same pin as the IDM pin on the "CCD" module. While the connectors are identical, interchanging the modules may or may not create a driveability problem , while tripping a fault code of #18, or # 212 (IDM code). These are problems consistent with interchanging one type module in place of the other.
Title: engine cut out
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on May 27, 2009, 06:32:27 PM
Many of the after market modules are different colors and it doesn't mean anything...