Technical => Drivetrain Tech => Topic started by: Trinom on May 11, 2009, 04:08:49 PM
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on May 11, 2009, 04:08:49 PM
Hi, I'm looking for standard automatic transmition for my TC. I have some from Mustang, but it doesn't work well and shows nonsenses on speedometer. I'd like to swap it. What's the ordinary price of this tranny?
Thanks for help, Trinom.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Thunder Chicken on May 11, 2009, 04:50:39 PM
You're looking for a 4-speed auto for your '86 Turbo Coupe? That would be the A4LD transmission which is not a direct swap. The A4LD is an electronic automatic and needs the appropriate computer to function properly. You'd need the computer and harness from an 87-88 A4LD equipped Turbo Coupe.
The proper automatic for your car is the C3 3-speed auto. It's a marginally better transmission than the A4LD, which is known to be weak (that's why Ford crippled the automatic 87-88 Tubo Coupes with 155 horsepower, because they feared 190 would eat up the transmission)
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on May 12, 2009, 11:29:26 AM
It's so strange for me, because I have now 4 speed automatic... So I have two ways: Buy 5 speed manual (step forward) or 3 speed automatic (step backward)? ... or repair that s I have now, but it isn't original part.
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;271707
that's why Ford crippled the automatic 87-88 Tubo Coupes with 155 horsepower, because they feared 190 would eat up the transmission
'86 TC has 190 HP and '87/88 TC has only 155 HP? And what about 3,8 and 5 liter engines? They have what? C3? And what about Mustangs?
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: 86XR7project on May 12, 2009, 11:41:42 AM
3.8 v6 cars had either a C5 I think (correct me if I am incorrect) or an AOD. 5.0 cars had an AOD.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: thunderjet302 on May 12, 2009, 12:20:02 PM
If your car has a 4 speed auto then it is not stock......
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on May 12, 2009, 12:36:06 PM
I know, it's from Mustang. We bought this car with some automatic transmition but it was dead, so my father and one guy changed tranny to this. I can't ask my father, becouse he has died 1 year ago.
C5 is what? 5 speed automat?
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Thunder Chicken on May 12, 2009, 02:04:30 PM
Quote from: Trinom;271834
It's so strange for me, because I have now 4 speed automatic... So I have two ways: Buy 5 speed manual (step forward) or 3 speed automatic (step backward)? ... or repair that s I have now, but it isn't original part.
'86 TC has 190 HP and '87/88 TC has only 155 HP? And what about 3,8 and 5 liter engines? They have what? C3? And what about Mustangs?
No, the 86 TC has 145 horsepower with the automatic and 155 with the 5-speed. For 87-88 the 5-speed TC had 190 horsepower, but the automatics were detuned to 155. The 3.8 had 130 or 140 depending on the type of fuel injection, and the 5.0 had 150 in 1987 and 155 in 1988. The 3.8 and 5.0 used either the C5 (three-speed auto) for 1983-86 or the AOD (4-speed auto) for 87-88. The AOD was optional in 86 V6 cars. All 5.0 models had the AOD.
Here's the breakdown of transmission availability in these cars:
The C5 transmission is nearly identical to the C4 3-speed automatic, but with the addition of a lockup torque converter and metric fasteners/specifications.
If you've got a 4-speed auto in your car it's an A4LD (the AOD will not bolt onto a 2.3), which might explain why it's dead. The A4LD needs a computer to run. I know for sure the lockup torque converter and 4th gear need the computer, but not sure about first, second and third gears.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on May 12, 2009, 02:25:23 PM
I didn't write, that the current 4 speed is dead. The previous tranny was dead. The current works, shifts, but is quite noisy and shows nonsenses on speedometer. If you look at the shifter there is P - R - N - D - 2 - 1. I can't shift 1 and 2 do the same as D. I read, that 1 and 2 are for hilly tracks and you can use a motor brake.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: CatCarMan2012 on May 12, 2009, 02:53:13 PM
Swapping the speedo gear will fix the "nonsense". What do you mean it makes alot of noise?
Can you ID the trans by the transpan? I don't know much about the 4cyl trans's. It is still a 4 cyl turbo right?
Go here and identify the trans. http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Transmission_Identification
-dz
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on May 12, 2009, 04:05:05 PM
Quote from: danzajax;271873
Swapping the speedo gear will fix the "nonsense". What do you mean it makes alot of noise?
If I compare it to another transmitions, this makes humming noise while I'm driving. I don't hear another transmitions.
Quote from: danzajax;271873
Can you ID the trans by the transpan? I don't know much about the 4cyl trans's. It is still a 4 cyl turbo right?
Yes, it is :D
Quote from: danzajax;271873
Go here and identify the trans. http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Transmission_Identification
I have my Bird by my grandma and I'll be there probably at the weekend 22th to 24th. If I have a look on the site you linked, my tranny looks like AOD - it has stripes on the bottom, but I'm not sure...
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Thunder Chicken on May 12, 2009, 06:01:34 PM
It can't be an AOD, they won't bolt to a 4-cyl.
The 4-cylinder 4-speed auto shifter is supposed to say P-R-N-OD-D-2-1.
There is a slight possibility it may be a C4. Most C4's have a V8 bellhousing, but there are 4-cyl bellhousings out there. Some 70's Mustangs and Pintos had the C4 with a 4-cylinder. They are quite rare, but they do exist, and if you have one you've already got the best possible automatic bolted to your engine right now, as the C4 is much stronger than the C3 and MUCH stronger than the A4LD.
The easiest way to identify the tranny is by the shape of the pan (and number of bolt holes in the pan). The AOD will be slightly rectangular but almost square with the two corners facing the rear angled off and 13 bolts. The A4LD would be rectangular, much longer front to back than it is side-to-side,with a kick out on one side, and has 18 bolts: (http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/images/2/25/Ford_AOD_gaskets.gif)
The C3 tranny has an almost square pan with a small kick-out on one side and is held on by 13 bolts, while the C4 is slightly rectangular with a small kickout on the front and is held on with 11 bolts. (http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/images/e/ea/Trans_gaskets.gif)
Now, about the problems you're having. First, the speedometer. As somebody mentioned, you can make the speedometer accurate by changing the small plastic gear on the end of your vehicle speed sensor. The gears are cheap (I just ordered one for $9 including shipping to Canada for my car, which has the same problem). It's a 10 minute job, most of which you'll spend jacking the car up.
Is the humming a vibration that you can feel in the car, or just a noise that you can hear? If it's a vibration you might have a bent or out of balance driveshaft (one of the factory balancing tabs may have fallen off), or bad U-joints. I just had this problem with my car and swapping the driveshaft out solved it.
If the humming is just a noise, are you sure it's the transmission and not a wheel bearing? One way to tell would be to drive the car on a smooth, level surface. Does the nature of the whine (pitch, intensity) change as the gears change, or does it simply change as the speed changes? Hold the car at a certain speed, say 50MPH (80 km/hr), and shift between D and 2. Does the noise change, or does it stay the same? If the noise stays constant at a constant speed, regardless the gear you're in, the rear wheel bearings could be the problem. It's a common issue in these cars. Unfortunately a bad wheel bearing usually means the whole axle shaft must be replaced because the rollers of the bearings ride directly on the shaft.
Next, while traveling at a constant speed, try gently pressing the gas to accelerate (not enough to make the transmission downshift), and then let off to let the car maintain speed, then release the gas completely (BUT DO NOT BRAKE) to let the car slow down. What you're doing here is placing an acceleration load first, then no load, then a deceleration load. Does the noise change between accelerating (load), cruising (no load), and decelerating? If it does, this could indicate problems in the rear end itself.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on May 13, 2009, 06:46:25 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;271897
The 4-cylinder 4-speed auto shifter is supposed to say P-R-N-OD-D-2-1.
They should have, but the shifter bezel (http://"http://www.abload.de/img/crw_0836hz8b.jpg") looks like stock.
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;271897
Now, about the problems you're having. First, the speedometer. As somebody mentioned, you can make the speedometer accurate by changing the small plastic gear on the end of your vehicle speed sensor. The gears are cheap (I just ordered one for $9 including shipping to Canada for my car, which has the same problem). It's a 10 minute job, most of which you'll spend jacking the car up.
OK, I'll solve this after tranny identification :)
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;271897
Is the humming a vibration that you can feel in the car, or just a noise that you can hear?
It's only the noise, no vibrations.
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;271897
If the humming is just a noise, are you sure it's the transmission and not a wheel bearing? One way to tell would be to drive the car on a smooth, level surface. Does the nature of the whine (pitch, intensity) change as the gears change, or does it simply change as the speed changes?
No, I'm not sure, I can't recognise the source of the noise exactly. Intensity of this noise is quite still the same. And the whine? It's another noise which changes pitch with pressing gas pedal. It mutes after downshift or release the gas pedal.
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;271897
Hold the car at a certain speed, say 50MPH (80 km/hr), and shift between D and 2. Does the noise change, or does it stay the same? If the noise stays constant at a constant speed, regardless the gear you're in, the rear wheel bearings could be the problem. It's a common issue in these cars. Unfortunately a bad wheel bearing usually means the whole axle shaft must be replaced because the rollers of the bearings ride directly on the shaft.
Next, while traveling at a constant speed, try gently pressing the gas to accelerate (not enough to make the transmission downshift), and then let off to let the car maintain speed, then release the gas completely (BUT DO NOT BRAKE) to let the car slow down. What you're doing here is placing an acceleration load first, then no load, then a deceleration load. Does the noise change between accelerating (load), cruising (no load), and decelerating? If it does, this could indicate problems in the rear end itself.
OK, I'll try both situations.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on May 31, 2009, 10:13:47 AM
Hi, I have some news for you. The oil pan is definetely C3. Transmission is 3 speed automatics, not 4 speed as told me my father.
Here are some videos (sorry for my english :hick:): Accelerating - Cruising - Decelerating - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CmdP7WpxVg Shifting from D to 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em99Ck5bg1E Counting speeds - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oYkxdwRVU4
The accelerating is from 0, but there is a part (in the second half) where I accelerate from cca 50 km/h to cca 80 km/h.
You are right, the noise changes with speed and doesn't change while shifting. Where can I get the things to change?
But I don't really know, why I can't shift to 1.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: CoogarXR on May 31, 2009, 11:03:43 AM
To me, that sounds like rear end noise. Hard to tell though. I've had rear ends howl, but never a transmission (not to say it doesn't happen, just my experience).
Usually the way these transmissions work with the downshifting, if you pull it into 2 (or 1) it won't downshift until you slow down (considerably). Then it will stay in 2 (or 1). Try starting from a stop and take off in 1 and see if it doesn't shift. Then move to 2, see if it holds.
CoogarXR
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on May 31, 2009, 11:19:40 AM
Quote from: CoogarXR;275228
Try starting from a stop and take off in 1 and see if it doesn't shift. Then move to 2, see if it holds.
I'm not sure what exactly you want. In the first video in the beginning I start from stop and accelerating to cca 70 km/h. The same in third video (to cca 100 km/h).
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on May 31, 2009, 11:53:15 AM
Quote from: CoogarXR;275228
To me, that sounds like rear end noise. Hard to tell though. I've had rear ends howl, but never a transmission (not to say it doesn't happen, just my experience).
I agree, it's probably the rearend... If the whine changes pitch when accelerating vs coasting, that's a 99% it's the rear. The 7.5" rears are famous for their whining...
A transmission noise would likely be continuous without much change, or possibly change pitch when the transmission shifts...
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: CoogarXR on May 31, 2009, 12:04:26 PM
Quote from: Trinom;275230
I'm not sure what exactly you want. In the first video in the beginning I start from stop and accelerating to cca 70 km/h. The same in third video (to cca 100 km/h).
What I meant was, to test if your 1 and 2 shift selections work, take off in 1, and see if it stays in 1st gear (should), then move to 2, it should stay in 2nd, etc.
I gathered that you were saying if you pull it into 2nd while you are moving and it didn't downshift, then there must be something wrong. I was just saying that it's not supposed to. Only if you are going slow will a manual downshift work. It will also work the way I said, upshifting from a stop.
CoogarXR
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on May 31, 2009, 01:34:00 PM
Oh, so 2 and 1 means direct shifting? When I shifted from D to 2 it downshifted I think, because it jerked a bit (it isn't visible on the video because my camera was sitting in seat next to my leg) and RPMs jumped to more than 2000 by "45" MPH and before were bellow 2000 by "55" MPH - look at the second video before and after shifting.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: CatCarMan2012 on June 01, 2009, 12:04:02 PM
The trans appears to be shifting fine. All I hear is what sounds, to me, like a rear gear howl.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: cougarXLS on June 01, 2009, 05:33:45 PM
Quote from: danzajax;275426
The trans appears to be shifting fine. All I hear is what sounds, to me, like a rear gear howl.
The tranny does sound okay. Pop off the drums and have a look at the axle shaft bearings. This may sound familiar to the rearend problems I've been having. :dunno: I used a set of those extender bearings and the sound vanished.
If the bearings are okay, I'd pop the pod open and have a look. Just my :2c:
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: CatCarMan2012 on June 01, 2009, 06:53:09 PM
Nice shoes.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on June 02, 2009, 04:38:56 PM
Thanks for help, guys. I'll check it.
Quote from: danzajax;275487
Nice shoes.
heh, thanks :D
... and who will tell me something more about "2" and "1"?
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: CoogarXR on June 03, 2009, 02:30:03 PM
Quote from: Trinom;275597
... and who will tell me something more about "2" and "1"?
Here's what the owners manual says:
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on June 07, 2009, 11:12:21 AM
Perfect. Thanks. I'll have a look on the bearings.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on June 22, 2009, 05:09:36 PM
Hi, what's the correct oil for my tranny? I don't have user manual, so I ask you :hick:
Thanks
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: CoogarXR on June 22, 2009, 07:26:40 PM
According to the manual- "Motorcraft DEXRON II" Part number XT-2-QDX
CoogarXR
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on June 23, 2009, 06:04:21 AM
Thanks. Does anyone have transmition section in user manual in JPGs, please? I bought 3 manuals on ebay and waiting for delivery.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on July 08, 2009, 05:52:34 AM
Hi guys, I'm solving problem with wrong measuring speedometer. You were speeking about speedogears. What type exactly I need? I've found some connection with rear brakes, so I have 9" drum brakes on rear. Thanks, Trinom.
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 08, 2009, 02:20:24 PM
Without knowing the number of teeth on the transmission output shaft, it's a guess at best for what driven gear you need...
Basically you need to pull the present gear and count the teeth... IF your speedo reads fast, you need a gear with more teeth... Per a speedo shop owner I talked with some time ago, each tooth added to the driven gear will slow the reading approx 3mph...
There are online calculators, still they won't be accurate without correct info...
Title: Price of 4 speed automatic tranny
Post by: Trinom on August 20, 2009, 03:02:35 PM
But I still don't know numer of drive gear teeth. Rear end Ratio is 3,45 and tire hight is 25,6". If It's 7, I need 19 teeth speedogear, if 6, it's 16 and if 8 it's 21. I think it is 7, because of the number of teeth is "in the middle" and allows you to use another tire sizes.