General => Lounge => Automotive News & Fuel/Energy debate/discussion => Topic started by: Thunder Chicken on March 30, 2009, 09:04:45 AM
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 30, 2009, 09:04:45 AM
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The Obama administration gave General Motors and Chrysler LLC failing grades Monday for their turnaround efforts and promised a sweeping overhaul of the troubled companies. The government plans to give the automakers more money, but it is also holding out the threat of a "structured bankruptcy."
The federal government will provide operating funds for both automakers for several weeks, during which time the companies will have to undergo significant restructuring, administration officials said late Sunday night. At GM, part of that restructuring began early Monday when CEO Rick Wagoner announced his resignation (http://"http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/29/news/companies/auto_bailout/index.htm?postversion=2009033005"), which he said came at the request of the Obama administration. President Obama is expected to make a formal announcement later in the day about his plans for the companies, which have already been given $17.4 billion. GM (GM (http://"http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=GM&source=story_quote_link"), Fortune 500 (http://"http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2008/snapshots/175.html?source=story_f500_link")) will get 60 days and Chrysler 30 days in which to make a final push toward proving they can run viable businesses. If Chrysler succeeds, it will receive a $6 billion loan. In GM's case, the officials would not specify how much money the carmaker might receive. In the case of both companies, the officials said, stakeholders - and particularly debt holders in both companies - had not done enough to relieve the automakers of ongoing financial burdens. "We have made very clear that we expect a very, very substantial reduction in liability for both companies," one official said. The administration also said a structured bankruptcy is possible. "While Chrysler and GM are different companies with different paths forward, both have unsustainable liabilities and both need a fresh start," according to an administration document. "Their best chance at success may well require utilizing the bankruptcy code in a quick and surgical way." In order to help assuage consumer fears about buying cars from these companies as they restructure, the government is also setting aside funds to back up warranties on vehicles GM and Chrysler sell. GM: Changes at the top The administration officials were far more positive in their tone regarding the prospects for GM than for its smaller rival. "We are very confident GM can survive and thrive as a company," one official said, noting the company's global reach, the strength of its research and development and the power of its various brands. Nevertheless, significant changes are on the table. One was the resignation of chief executive Wagoner, a 32-year veteran of the company who has served in the top post since 2000. "On Friday I was in Washington for a meeting with administration officials. In the course of that meeting, they requested that I 'step aside' as CEO of GM, and so I have," Wagoner said in a statement posted to the GM Web site. Wagoner will be replaced by GM's chief operating officer, Fritz Henderson. Kent Kresa will serve as interim chairman. "Having worked closely with Fritz for many years, I know that he is the ideal person to lead the company through the completion of our restructuring efforts. His knowledge of the global industry and the company are exceptional, and he has the intellect, energy, and support among GM'ers worldwide to succeed," Wagoner said. "We view our approach to GM as starting with a clean sheet of paper," the Treasury official said. The officials said they had committed to working with GM to create a leaner, more competitive company. Administration officials will be in Detroit working very closely with the GM executives on a plan to restructure the company and its debt obligations, the officials said. The administration officials would not say how much more money they might ultimately lend to GM or how much working capital the automaker would need to make it through the next 60 days. Chrysler: Fiat or bust For its part, Chrysler was too reliant on the domestic auto market, according to the officials. In addition, a significant "hollowing out" of the company by its past owners had left it unable to compete effectively as a stand-alone company, the officials said. Any restructuring for Chrysler would have to involve a partnership, most likely a deal with Fiat which has had an "agreement in prinl" with Chrysler since January. Chrysler is getting 30 days to work out a deal with Fiat, which is the only way the officials believe the carmaker will survive. If that can happen, the administration is prepared to lend Chrysler $6 billion dollars more. While government officials said it was their "goal, hope and ambition" for a Chrysler-Fiat deal to work, the agreement terms would need to be modified from what the companies had previously announced. Fiat had originally planned to take a 35% stake in Chrysler, but that stake would have to be lower. Fiat would also not be allowed to own a majority stake in Chrysler until after all government loans have been repaid. There is sufficient money in existing funds to finance these plans, the officials said, who added that there would be no immediate need to ask Congress to appropriate more.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 30, 2009, 09:18:20 AM
Personally, I think it's ironic that the CEO is made a scapegoat while much of the blame for GM's problems lies with the shareholders. Yes, unions made it too expensive to build cars, but shareholders made it impossible for GM to innovate. Shareholders were and are concerned with one thing and one thing only: Return on investment. They don't look down the road, they look at today. Any new technology that will benefit the company tomorrow is put on the shelf because it costs money today. The few innovations that did take place were to cut costs, not to one-up (or even match) the competition. Everybody knew better product was needed, but nobody wanted to pay for its development. Unfortunately there is no way to legislate investors into looking to the future, so there must be a scapegoat.
BTW, I feel much the same way about the general public (myself included). We all know that we need to reduce our reliance on foreign oil, not just because it's foreign but because it will some day run out. In other words, we need to look to the future. But using less and coming up with alternatives has its costs: Smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles, higher fuel prices, and alternative fuels to name three. Nobody wants to deal with any of that right now, we want to put it off on our children. Gimme my Hummer now, let Junior pay down the road. And so it is with the investors: Gimme my ROI now, let future investors figure out how to keep the thing going.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 86XR7project on March 30, 2009, 09:39:49 AM
I agree, how easy it must be to blame the man at the top. All the Big 3 surely have to much overhead and managers and positions of that sort that they really do not need. Instead they'll lay off engineers and machine operators to make up the difference, anyone see the flaw in logic here? You need the engineers and machine operators more than you do management (When you have too much as is).
As for Chrysler and Fiat getting into bed together here, I think this could be good. The only thing that concerns me is telling them that a 35% stake in Chrysler was too much, THEY NEED THIS! Chrysler is on shakey ground and GM is worse off and they don't have the help that Chrysler is getting from Fiat. Chrysler is short by what they said they needed in December by around $3 Billion and Fiat can help them! Don't try to fix something that isn't broken, the Chrysler Fiat deal was good the way it was as long as they don't mess up.
Lets sit back and watch GM fail, we all know it will anyway.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: HAVI on March 30, 2009, 10:05:06 AM
As long as management makes the personnel decisions, the machine operators will be the first to get cut. I've been seeing this firsthand at work over the last 4 months....eliminate 3rd shift, so their supervisor bumps into 2nd shift....elimiate 2nd shift, 3rd and 2nd shift supervisors bump into 1st shift. Meanwhile nobody from "upstairs" has been let go yet.
As for GM and every other publicly traded company out there, yes the shareholders are the problem. As you guys stated, they want a return on their investment as fast as possible, so they can keep it rolling. When our owners sold to a LLC and investment group, their demand on our product increased ten-fold. So we complied, and with the s market as high as it was, we did really well. The investment group bailed as soon as their investment goals were reached (sooner than they even had expected), and left the LLC high and dry. So they then sold to an even bigger company with long term investments as their goal...now the s market tanked. Funny how that works.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 86XR7project on March 30, 2009, 10:11:19 AM
But thats a huge problem, machine operators and engineers aren't the problem. You eliminate half and expect twice the amount of work? I have been there and I know they are trying to save money but why eliminate 40-100 guys when you could eliminate 15 guys who make more money and really don't have an important job that someone else couldn't handle?
LLC companies always seem to tear companies apart. Who knows how long it will be before Cerberus LLC does it to Chrysler.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: HAVI on March 30, 2009, 10:15:24 AM
After 3rd shift elimination: No OT, 4 day work weeks, no more 401K match, no more quarterly incentive program, etc... Meanwhile they don't take any cuts, still work 5 days a week salaried, etc...(and that includes the 3rd shift supervisor)
As for the automakers, they best be crossing their fingers.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Grumbles on March 30, 2009, 10:57:58 AM
They don't eliminate the supervisors because the supervisors do the eliminating. Even asking a question like that is silly.
Maricopa county has 24 chiefs. You need 3 to run the whole county. They are currently cutting OT and we're on a hiring freeze. Average officer yearly income: 36,500 Average chief income: 130,000
Ask me if we'll lose any chiefs. lol.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: V8Demon on March 30, 2009, 11:04:13 AM
The "blame the guy in charge" mentality is nothing new. Just look at college level and professional sports. FWIW Lutz is more so to blame than Wagoner IMHO....
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 86XR7project on March 30, 2009, 11:20:37 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;264802
FWIW Lutz is more so to blame than Wagoner IMHO....
Thats a true statement.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on March 30, 2009, 11:36:17 AM
I'm sorry but unions and corporate greed will be the death of these companies and the industry in this country . The UAW has out lived it;s usefulness,there are now so many laws and agencies that will protect workers rights nowadays , lets face it the unions have done more damage to the industry in the last decade then any benefit to the workers could possibly gain . The union holds the company hostage with strikes and works slowdowns if their every demand isn't met, the corporation looks to recoup the money that they had to pay out by outsourcing any jobs they can to countries where wages are a fraction of what the union demands . The company bean counters are rewarded with huge bonuses for selling out the workers of this country.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: oldraven on March 30, 2009, 01:23:33 PM
I agree, T-Chicken, but you sadly can't fire shareholders. Someone's got to fry, so it may as well be the guy who inherited the mess and tried to fix it, rather than those who caused it and encouraged it for the sake of their pocket.
Did you notice who they got to replace him? The current COO, who was previously the CFO!!!! The guy who had his hands in the books the entire time, but didn't sound any warnings.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 30, 2009, 01:26:39 PM
Quote from: yankeepete;264808
I'm sorry but unions and corporate greed will be the death of these companies and the industry in this country . The UAW has out lived it;s usefulness,there are now so many laws and agencies that will protect workers rights nowadays , lets face it the unions have done more damage to the industry in the last decade then any benefit to the workers could possibly gain . The union holds the company hostage with strikes and works slowdowns if their every demand isn't met, the corporation looks to recoup the money that they had to pay out by outsourcing any jobs they can to countries where wages are a fraction of what the union demands . The company bean counters are rewarded with huge bonuses for selling out the workers of this country.
I agree 150% that unions shoulder a lot of the blame as well, probably about 80% of it, but in the end it's the shareholders who decide whether to bring out that new, exciting technology or keep building the same stuff they're building now. Virtually every new product in a publicly traded company has to go before the board for approval, and if it costs more than the status quo, it's axed. In other words, the unions might be responsible for making a Cavalier cost twice what it's worth (and are 100% to blame for Cavliers being built in Mexico), but it's the shareholders who hold the blame for the Cavalier being built to begin with. Unions didn't decide to install pushrod 2.2 4-cylinders, 3.1/3.4/3.5/3.9 V6's, etc, and 3 and four speed transmissions in every car made while the competition was leapfrogging them. That was a shareholder thing.
The previous generation Malibu was a perfect example of this: Start with a clean slate to build an all-new car, but saddle it with dated powertrains and cheap plastics because sophisticated powertrains and quality plastics cost money. In a world with no competition this might work because people will buy your product no matter what - they have little choice. In the real world, though, where people can cross the street and buy a much nicer car for the same (or, in the case of the Koreans, less) money, things like this matter. The previous Malibu was a failure because it just plain sucked next to the competition.
GM is actually finally starting to move away from "please the shareholders at all costs", but it just may be too late. Virtually every GM product (certainly the ones released in the last two years) is on par with or better than the competition. Unfortunately decades of building sub-par cars has created a lot of bad feelings. As good as their new cars are it would be nearly impossible to get many people to buy one. Those who have a "Import or nothing" attitude are not unpatriotic, they're just once bitten, twice shy. $25k or more is a lot of money to trust a car company with, and two years worth of better products is not near enough to convince people that GM (and Ford, and Chrysler) are worth trusting.
If GM can pull through this I think they will emerge a much stronger company. Part of this is because they are building better products, but part of it is because the biggest competitor, Toyota, is slipping down the same slope GM did 30 years ago: It's becoming too big, too diluted, and too much about pleasing shareholders instead of building good cars. Toyota's quality has cratered in the past decade (though their reputation hasn't yet caught up). Toyota is becoming the next GM just as GM is becoming (or sould at least be trying to become) the next Honda.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 86XR7project on March 30, 2009, 01:41:47 PM
Has anyone else noticed Ford's quality has inproved gradually the last 10 years?
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 20th anny 5.o on March 30, 2009, 01:53:59 PM
Has any one seen the recent consumer reports most of fords line is recommended Explorer/Sport Trac,Expedition,Escape,Edge,F150,Focus,Flex, Fusion, Mustang,Ranger,Taurus, Taurus X were all given recommendations by Consumer Reports.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 86XR7project on March 30, 2009, 01:57:43 PM
Its amazing how far Ford has come since Ford Jr. stepped out of the pilot seat. I can't say I like the new CEO but he seems to know what he is doing.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: V8Demon on March 30, 2009, 01:59:08 PM
Quote
there are now so many laws and agencies that will protect workers rights nowadays
Then why is it that the county I work for -- which is NOT in a "right to work" state is attempting to lay off 300+ union workers, but has made no mention of laying off any of the 461 NON-UNION politically appointed employees?
Maybe if the politicians followed their own laws would it be safe to not have unions...
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 30, 2009, 02:14:33 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;264843
Then why is it that the county I work for -- which is NOT in a "right to work" state is attempting to lay off 300+ union workers, but has made no mention of laying off any of the 461 NON-UNION politically appointed employees?
Maybe if the politicians followed their own laws would it be safe to not have unions...
I can tell you exactly why. Unionized employees are a bigger financial burden, both through higher wages and through higher benefits, so they're the first to go. They price themselves out of work. When the economy recovers and those employees are needed again it'll likely be non-union folks who are hired on to replace 'em. That's also why you see a lot of munilities offload work to private sector - for example around here the provincial road dept used to fix and build roads. The unions got too demanding so the province fired 'em all and started putting the highway work out to tender for private companies to do. That was decades ago.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: V8Demon on March 30, 2009, 02:42:28 PM
These non-union personnel are not an outsource and many of them do in fact get paid holidays/vacation/sick time and medical benefits and on average, earn MORE than the union employees. Like I said political appointees not outsourced labor.
The county executive has 5 deputy county executives appointed by him.....WHY???? BTW, their base salary is 178,000 EACH.
I'll add to that these attempts at layoff come after the official 2009 budget proposal came out in February where it was stated in page 26 of the proposal that there is indeed an extra $130 MILLION. A forensicaudit was performed on the county books as well. Apparently there's a ton of other money hidden as well. The results have not been made public yet, but speculation says up to $50 million more that is unaccounted for...
While I'll agree with you that in most cases the union employees are higher paid, in the situation that many people who work in the county I do are dealing with, this is simply not the case. Add to all this the fact that we gave some concessions concerning our medical benefits that amounts to a $15 million per year savings for the county.
I'm lucky I'm not on the chopping block...
yet.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: oldraven on March 30, 2009, 02:42:43 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;264834
GM is actually finally starting to move away from "please the shareholders at all costs", but it just may be too late. Virtually every GM product (certainly the ones released in the last two years) is on par with or better than the competition.
And you can thank Bob Lutz for every one of them. The guy catches a lot of flak because he talks more than he should, but he's the first real and honest car guy GM has seen at the helm of production since 1970. Now that he's retiring, I'm scared for the next generation of mundane we may see.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on March 30, 2009, 03:49:34 PM
I agree with you on the point about the share holders ,they do stifle the companies ability to evolve and adapt to the market.They are only concerned with 1 thing ,the bottom line . I ve was a tech a GM dealer for five years before going back to a private owned shop,as far as the product lines they are putting out the newer stuff isn't any better than the old ,I seen the same old problems with the new as the old ,parts of poor quality ,lack of pride in the assemble of them ,and a lack of wanting to be responsible or correct the problems when pointed out. I left the dealership in 06 ,it was the same every Monday meeting ,a pile new of TSB's and parts shortage notices . If you can't discipline the workers making the products for doing a bad job, or in the case of quality control ,not at all ,then you have no chance making a better product. The unions do add to this problem by protecting some workers that should be fired , in my case it kinda ticks you off when you know you make half as much as the guy who's mistake you're fixing and the cars owner who is understandable irate ,lets you know what he thinks about the situation.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: daddybair7 on March 30, 2009, 04:01:10 PM
Ok unions balance out things and balance is good. As for the right to work states they have union and non union employees getting paid the same at just above min. Wage. And those states were always strugling. All I'm sayin is if the unions go the laws that are set up to protect will go to we need the balance.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on March 30, 2009, 04:32:18 PM
Right to work states ,like Iowa ,have wage regulation wich protect union workers as well as non union ,Ican see what your getting at but the unions have done nothing in the last 15 years to advance ,or hell even protect workers rights ,and that is what they were formed to do . They are out dated out of touch with reality.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Kitz Kat on March 30, 2009, 04:46:05 PM
GM needs more Howie Long commercials!!
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: V8Demon on March 30, 2009, 04:53:14 PM
When it's YOUR job the union is protecting, perhaps you'll think differently as to whether or not they're outdated....
It's not a matter of outdating. It's a matter of greed -- on BOTH sides of the automotive fence. The problem is that the media in this country is so anti union it's very rare that you hear the union side. Figured I'd show a viewpoint of someone who benefits from them....
BTW my plight isn't even that bad.... Think about NYC teachers/cops/fireman. Sure the NYPD recently got a good contract (about time) but what about all those years where the economy was booming and Bloomberg, the (David ins) and Guiliani shiznit on all 3 of those respective professions?
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: HAVI on March 30, 2009, 05:09:53 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;264893
When it's YOUR job the union is protecting, perhaps you'll think differently as to whether or not they're outdated....
It's not a matter of outdating. It's a matter of greed -- on BOTH sides of the automotive fence. The problem is that the media in this country is so anti union it's very rare that you hear the union side. Figured I'd show a viewpoint of someone who benefits from them....
BTW my plight isn't even that bad.... Think about NYC teachers/cops/fireman. Sure the NYPD recently got a good contract (about time) but what about all those years where the economy was booming and Bloomberg, the (David ins) and Guiliani shiznit on all 3 of those respective professions?
Ironic that you state that. My wife was one of those shiznit-on professions. (EMT Metro North, NY City, and Rye), and just this morning she mentioned, after hearing of the GM issue, that it was the politicians who should take a 25% pay cut and give it to rescue, fire, and police. But it's all greed in any given slant or another.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: V8Demon on March 30, 2009, 05:21:38 PM
My wife went back to the city as a teacher. Why she has prior time vested and the job market is so dismal in her profession out here on Long Island she decided it was better to be secure than to go job hunting every summer.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: daddybair7 on March 30, 2009, 05:46:17 PM
I am union I belong to International Union of Operating Engineers Local#18 and yes I have worked on the non union side at a honda parts factory and got screwed because their Human resouces dept. Didn't care just what worked for the company.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on March 30, 2009, 06:43:44 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;264893
When it's YOUR job the union is protecting, perhaps you'll think differently as to whether or not they're outdated....
It's not a matter of outdating. It's a matter of greed -- on BOTH sides of the automotive fence. The problem is that the media in this country is so anti union it's very rare that you hear the union side. Figured I'd show a viewpoint of someone who benefits from them....
BTW my plight isn't even that bad.... Think about NYC teachers/cops/fireman. Sure the NYPD recently got a good contract (about time) but what about all those years where the economy was booming and Bloomberg, the (David ins) and Guiliani shiznit on all 3 of those respective professions?
All I can say is I've seen how the unions use there influence here ,Iowa Steam and pipe fitters union tying up an ethanol plant project in court when they found out no union contractor had there bids accepted ,the Teachers union trying to force non union teachers to pay dues to the union ,basing the argument that current teacher wages are based on the union pay scale . Unions here operate more like organized crime rather than an oranization for the workers best interest. That being said not all unions are bad but most of your larger and most powerful do not have the peoples best interest at heart.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Kitz Kat on March 30, 2009, 07:08:09 PM
I'm a non union member, I do believe some unions may need to be active. specially the way the economics are.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: daddybair7 on March 30, 2009, 08:07:57 PM
Kits kat that's what I was saying we need unions to keep a balance. i know not every union is the same or how they deal with certin issues but they do have employees issues at the front and they also try to keep it fair for the employers so they can keep bidding low and still keep all the union members workin. At least that is how my union does it and the unions do differ from one to the next
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: jcassity on March 30, 2009, 08:47:29 PM
like Kitz
Im for a union in these times but be assured everyone that unions will be a thing of the past coming shortly. They will rise up again under the control of you know who. The boyscout running the treasury.
I am for unions but they need to find thier footing , get ancd to the reasons of forming one.
My brother in law had a shoulder issue and wasnt able to go see a doctor until he notified the union, and the union would tell him which doctor to go see.
That doctor said he was fine,,,,,, (THANK YOU DANA in Statesville NC), well after a few years now, he is on his way to being an elderly 30 yr old .
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 20thanniver-ls on March 30, 2009, 09:13:20 PM
i work for a company that used to be union - they are owned by Tyco Fire and Security, and from what I've heard from the older employees (who were there well before we were bought out by tyco and merged with another company and consequently dropped by the union) that the company is way better now. We have cheaper and more benefits, more resources for other things, yet we retained the union pay scale. I'm not saying all unions are bad, but there are some that are just a drain on people as well as the economy. A lot of people got screwed when this happened - lost pensions, lost jobs, ect. People that had 5 years or more kept a small pension, but the ones who lacked 2,3,or 4 months would have to quit their current jobs, (who, since then have been working here for 10+ years now) join a union company, and lose out on a lot of what they are getting now.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on March 30, 2009, 09:23:39 PM
Iknow exactly what your talking about ,in the late 90's I worked for a foundry here ,I was injured ,completely blow out me knee ,3 surgeries later by workers comp doctors I was told it can't be fixed . No union in this place but when push comes to shove you turn to the lawyers it was a pain in the but in the end I got what I needed to cover the cost of having total joint replacement in 10 or so years when it completely goes . Point is a lawyer can accomplish just as much as a union . I hope your brother in law gets taken care of in the end .
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: jcassity on March 30, 2009, 10:16:58 PM
As of late,,,
Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann has become my hero!!
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: HAVI on March 30, 2009, 10:52:55 PM
Quote from: jcassity;264973
As of late,,,
Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann has become my hero!!
Mine too, but I'm a bit biased, lol. I don't want to get political, but I can hear the words, "I told you so." For those that don't know, she opposed the big 3 bailout, speculating that they would only ask for more tax payer money. Which they did. And that we would end up stepping in. Which, today we did.
Unions as a balance. Yep. Do all of them do that? nope. My dad lost out because of hard lines drawn against Northwest Airlines.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on March 30, 2009, 11:40:56 PM
Where is this bailout coming from ,they are asking for a low interest fixed rate LOAN, not a bundle of cash that they have no intention of paying back . We would be more likely to get our money back from GM ,Chrysler,and Ford then AIG, CITI or Bank of America ,I would almost guarantee it .If we can give AIG over 85 Billion so they can go on vacation and hand out bonuses I think we could risk a loan to the car makers.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: HAVI on March 31, 2009, 12:07:46 AM
I was paraphrasing. I'm not taking any sides.
What was originally introduced as a bailout, ended up being a loan.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: jcassity on March 31, 2009, 01:55:57 AM
Quote from: yankeepete;264982
hand out bonuses .
no such thing was paid. Retention fees were. PM me and I will explain where my apparently odd logic is coming from so then you can see why I say this. Its not that you would agree, i just find it important that I explain my actions as to not appear as a smart ass,, just fact based information. this way Its an offline to the side converstation.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Cougar5.0 on March 31, 2009, 02:41:46 AM
Quote from: jcassity;264973
As of late,,,
Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann has become my hero!!
So you believe there should be an armed insurrection to overthrow the United States government? Bachmann, that psychotic moron does.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: oldraven on March 31, 2009, 06:50:31 AM
It would be nice if a Union actually did care about balance and protecting jobs. But you can't tell me that what the UAW/CAW are doing now is about protecting jobs, when their hard line is costing them tens of thousands of workers. Some things only work in theory, but fail when you have to rely on someone to look out for the better good of every party.
And Unions would be completely obsolete if Labour Laws were more up to date and inclusive. I have no use for Unions because they don't represent equality, they represent entitlement. If every worker in the nation was protected in the same way, with a decent base-line pay, we would see people asking, "why am I paying these extra dues when I'm already getting the same benefit and paying taxes every year?" We all have a Union. It's called a Government, and our taxes, mixed with Labour Laws (that didn't exist until the Unions came along, so yes, I agree that they have had a large part to play, and were more than necessary back in the day) are our dues and benefits. If those laws aren't up to snuff, you call for change and make it an election issue. Once we got Minimum Wage, paid sick days, EI, CPP, SS, National work safety standards, the right to refuse, etc., the days for the Unions were numbered. They are obsolete, or will be soon enough.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: shame302 on March 31, 2009, 09:52:33 AM
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All I can say is I've seen how the unions use there influence here ,Iowa Steam and pipe fitters union tying up an ethanol plant project in court when they found out no union contractor had there bids accepted
Quote
It would be nice if a Union actually did care about balance and protecting jobs. But you can't tell me that what the UAW/CAW are doing now is about protecting jobs, when their hard line is costing them tens of thousands of workers. Some things only work in theory, but fail when you have to rely on someone to look out for the better good of every party.
And Unions would be completely obsolete if Labour Laws were more up to date and inclusive. I have no use for Unions because they don't represent equality, they represent entitlement. If every worker in the nation was protected in the same way, with a decent base-line pay, we would see people asking, "why am I paying these extra dues when I'm already getting the same benefit and paying taxes every year?" We all have a Union. It's called a Government, and our taxes, mixed with Labour Laws (that didn't exist until the Unions came along, so yes, I agree that they have had a large part to play, and were more than necessary back in the day) are our dues and benefits. If those laws aren't up to snuff, you call for change and make it an election issue. Once we got Minimum Wage, paid sick days, EI, CPP, SS, National work safety standards, the right to refuse, etc., the days for the Unions were numbered. They are obsolete, or will be soon enough.
Some sectors need the union influence. Your argument is god only if companies/employers are honest and play by the rules. The UBC (brotherhood of carpenters) is strong around here and they go out of their way to protect both union and non union workers. Time and time again they have fought for workers that have gotten screwed by contractors. Mis-classification of workers, with holding wages and or workers rights, safety issues etc. can be a problem in the trade. I dont see any non-union workers on state funded jobs complaining about their pay check at the end of the week (prevailing wage jobs). That is, if their employer pays it out like they are supposed too. Often they do not. The trade is MUCH safer because of the union and the workers are generally more skilled. On the flip side, what comes off of the top of our pay for our health, ins, annuity, pension, and dues would make you puke. Obviously, cost of union construction is higher than non union scabbs.
Quote
So you believe there should be an armed insurrection to overthrow the United States government? Bachmann, that psychotic moron does.
Let's not get into a discussion about what your psycotic moron "massiah" believes......
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: oldraven on March 31, 2009, 10:06:45 AM
Well, this thread is about to go down in flames.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Cougar5.0 on March 31, 2009, 10:22:45 AM
Lol - it's a Shame, isn't it!
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 86XR7project on March 31, 2009, 10:36:37 AM
Quote from: oldraven;265030
Well, this thread is about to go down in flames.
I agree. This is going to get ugly fast. Non-union .vs. pro-union.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on March 31, 2009, 11:11:43 AM
Ok,ok , I kinda started this ,so let me clarify I have said not all unions are bad and some still serve a purpose in certain industries ,But some of these larger unions in well regulated industries have served their purpose and have become too big and cumbersome for the industry and workers they represent .It is these that either need to be dismantled or have their powers limited for the benefit of all involved . I'm not completely anti union ,I'm also not pro big Government , I can't see the current situation in the auto industry improving without a major overhaul of the way labor and financial matters are handled now.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 86XR7project on March 31, 2009, 11:28:12 AM
^This is true.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: V8Demon on March 31, 2009, 11:32:28 AM
Quote from: shame302;265027
Some sectors need the union influence. Your argument is god only if companies/employers are honest and play by the rules. The UBC (brotherhood of carpenters) is strong around here and they go out of their way to protect both union and non union workers. Time and time again they have fought for workers that have gotten screwed by contractors. Mis-classification of workers, with holding wages and or workers rights, safety issues etc. can be a problem in the trade. I dont see any non-union workers on state funded jobs complaining about their pay check at the end of the week (prevailing wage jobs). That is, if their employer pays it out like they are supposed too. Often they do not. The trade is MUCH safer because of the union and the workers are generally more skilled. On the flip side, what comes off of the top of our pay for our health, ins, annuity, pension, and dues would make you puke. Obviously, cost of union construction is higher than non union scabbs.
Thank you. It's amazing how one Union which is vilified by the media becomes the stereotype for all unions...
For years it was solely the UAW's fault....Only recently have the eyes been pointed elsewhere as well. The media is a fickle mistress....Gone are the days of unbiased reporting as far as politics is concerned.
As fa as that politician in question: You guys all need to learn to play nicely. :rollin:
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: daddybair7 on March 31, 2009, 09:15:22 PM
Can't we just get along LOL. Well I guess if I would buy something other than a Ford product. Then non of this would happen I'm sorry I love Fords they just don't give me problems like all the others I have owned. Well ok if you have to get a leather whip and bust my butt for it. Lol
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: V8Demon on March 31, 2009, 09:22:25 PM
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Well ok if you have to get a leather whip and bust my butt for it. Lol
[SIZE="7"]WAT[/SIZE]
:rollin:
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: HAVI on March 31, 2009, 09:47:45 PM
Quote from: HAVI;264790
After 3rd shift elimination: No OT, 4 day work weeks, no more 401K match, no more quarterly incentive program, etc... Meanwhile they don't take any cuts, still work 5 days a week salaried, etc...(and that includes the 3rd shift supervisor)
As for the automakers, they best be crossing their fingers.
Appears I've spoke too soon. 3rd Supe was let go yesterday, along with some others from "upstairs". Can you tell we're all on edge in today's daily mess? Blizzard today doesn't help much either. I need sun!!:flame:
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: jcassity on March 31, 2009, 11:17:37 PM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;265004
So you believe there should be an armed insurrection to overthrow the United States government? Bachmann, that psychotic moron does.
Im keeping track,, you sir have a history of starting the name calling, dont cause a blow out on this thread.
your guilt preceeds you, think about it.
there is no cure for liberalism.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 01, 2009, 12:16:11 AM
Number 2 makes an appearance.
:rollin:
:hick:
Hey, I argued against the people who thought she should be convicted and executed for sedition. I knew she'd only get a slap on the wrist and even more attention.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: V8Demon on April 01, 2009, 12:36:21 AM
Note the following: 1. Just to the right of the Motorsports banner, it reads that this is 7 of 210. 2. Click on the 'Previous' button to go to Article #6. Note that the counter now reads "6 of 209". 3. Click on the "Next" button, and you'll see that NOW article #7 is "We Drive a Honda F1 Car", and this article is showing as 7 of 209.
It's a gag.
Quote
I think it's an APRIL FOOLS gag... just google "JARED GALL" (the author) and you'll see his other April fools gags he's done while at Car and Driver.
:rollin: ;)
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Carl on April 01, 2009, 01:07:40 AM
Yep it's an april fools joke. Consider those companies make more than they lose from nascar.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: V8Demon on April 01, 2009, 01:11:54 AM
It made no sense, but hey that doesn't stop people from doing things, now does it?
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 01, 2009, 01:14:03 AM
Hey, the gubmint is honoring GM warranties and firing the head dude, who knows?
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: ~AC on April 01, 2009, 01:33:40 AM
do they realize they're messing with 10,683,385 +/- seats per season? sure there isnt a sell out every weekend, all weekend.. but im not calculating TV viewers either... ugh. :punchballs:
EDIT = april fools joke -.-
nonsense.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on April 01, 2009, 01:42:30 AM
I'm not so sure it's a gag Speed TV forum is reporting the same thing and also something about it in Business Week. Just Google GM out of Nascar.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on April 01, 2009, 02:06:31 AM
Ok maybe I jumped the gun ,the more I read it all seems to go back to that one source ,Damm it, they got me .
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: jcassity on April 01, 2009, 02:08:16 AM
Tiny bit off topic but not an april fools joke, chrysler being told to marry Fiat, Fiat being partially owned by Libia.
This whole mess sounds like the godfather. I always wondered where all that last minute money came from for the purple hand. Now its time to pay someone back.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Beau on April 01, 2009, 02:27:37 AM
I remember reading something early last fall about GM drastically cutting back support to NASCAR...no surprise here if they dropped out altogether.
As far as anything else to say...well, to me, it's all political, and I ain't a gittin in THAT shiznitstorm! :rollin:
But I think GM will either sink, or swim like a fish before it's all said and done. Chrysler....bye bye birdie...RIP Ford...hold yer course Cap'n...better waters ahead.
Just my opinions though...;)
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: jcassity on April 01, 2009, 02:36:48 AM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;265193
Number 2 makes an appearance.
:rollin:
:hick:
Hey, I argued against the people who thought she should be convicted and executed for sedition. I knew she'd only get a slap on the wrist and even more attention.
It is everyones constitutional right to do just that, Sedition is.....
The difference between sedition and treason consists primarily in the subjective ultimate object of the violation to the public peace. Sedition does not consist of levying war against a government nor of adhering to its enemies, giving enemies aid, and giving enemies comfort. Nor does it consist, in most representative democracies, of peaceful protest against a government, nor of attempting to change the government by democratic means (such as direct democracy or constitutional convention).
Put simply, sedition is the stirring up of rebellion against the government in power. Treason is the violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or state and has to do with giving aid to enemies or levying war. Sedition is more about encouraging the people to rebel, where treason is actually betraying the country. Sedition laws somewhat equate to Terrorism and Public Order laws.
After by default being called a psychotic moron and shiznit (ie-number 2),
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: jcassity on April 01, 2009, 02:45:19 AM
Quote from: FordTruckFreeek;265213
I remember reading something early last fall about GM drastically cutting back support to NASCAR...no surprise here if they dropped out altogether.
As far as anything else to say...well, to me, it's all political, and I ain't a gittin in THAT shiznitstorm! :rollin:
But I think GM will either sink, or swim like a fish before it's all said and done. Chrysler....bye bye birdie...RIP Ford...hold yer course Cap'n...better waters ahead.
Just my opinions though...;)
I heard an interesting point made today.........
"what happended to montgomery ward, packard, desoto,ect ect, Companies who cant evolve with the demands of the times fell by the wayside."
It works, companies come and go. What has me a little curious now is what becomes of companies who are watching the gov't reaction to GM as well as a pre-arranged marrage of chrysler to fiat. If these other companies are in trouble or heading towards it, recent interaction by the govt may prevent them from asking for help. Times may be coming closer and closer to more unbelievable news.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 01, 2009, 09:21:00 AM
Scott, I called Bachman a "psychotic moron" for promoting sedition against our government, not you. I try not to laugh when I see you take insults to politicians personally. You're not her are you? Since there are 2 people who regularly and consistently defend everything right-wing - and you were the 2nd to post... BTW, YOU insulted me in your post captain hypocrite.
So, correct me if I'm wrong - instead of having to smartly salute the President and swear allegiance and be an everlasting patriot as I've heard for the past 8 years, now I'm supposed to support people who would describe themselves as a foreign agitator attempting to overthrow the US government? Who are the terrorists now? I'm confused.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: shame302 on April 01, 2009, 09:26:01 AM
Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by V8Demon (http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?p=265196#post265196") Here's more disturbing news, Komrades.
Note the following: 1. Just to the right of the Motorsports banner, it reads that this is 7 of 210. 2. Click on the 'Previous' button to go to Article #6. Note that the counter now reads "6 of 209". 3. Click on the "Next" button, and you'll see that NOW article #7 is "We Drive a Honda F1 Car", and this article is showing as 7 of 209.
It's a gag. Quote: I think it's an APRIL FOOLS gag... just google "JARED GALL" (the author) and you'll see his other April fools gags he's done while at Car and Driver. :rollin: ;)
Worthy of note here is the fact that of how easy everyone that reads this would believe it.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: daddybair7 on April 01, 2009, 09:38:34 AM
Well watchin the news last night the honda plant in marysville ohio is cutting production,reducing hours,and trying to get buyouts from employees. And layoffs are just around the corner. Just thought I would throw that in there even though its not gm or chrystler
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: oldraven on April 01, 2009, 10:41:43 AM
Quote from: daddybair7;265259
Well watchin the news last night the honda plant in marysville ohio is cutting production,reducing hours,and trying to get buyouts from employees. And layoffs are just around the corner. Just thought I would throw that in there even though its not gm or chrystler
A valid point too many people ignore. It's not just GM and Chrysler. It's everyone. They were just the first to ask for aid, and if it wasn't for the inflated gas prices of a year ago, BMW would have been first in asking Germany for aid. But because they did, and the D3 went to congress together before anyone else, and it was televised, and every news publication in the world covered it to the greatest extent, and still do, they are the ones getting raked over the public coals.
This is the media bias I've been whining about for years.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on April 01, 2009, 11:20:36 AM
Quote from: oldraven;265263
A valid point too many people ignore. It's not just GM and Chrysler. It's everyone. They were just the first to ask for aid, and if it wasn't for the inflated gas prices of a year ago, BMW would have been first
Your right ALL auto makers are hurting and our three are getting the worst coverage in the media . I not even going the start talking about the slimy evil,bloodsucking parasites of the Oil industry ,those guys make John Gotti and Berni Madoff look like the Pope and the Dali Lama.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: V8Demon on April 01, 2009, 11:23:40 AM
Quote
This is the media bias I've been whining about for years.
See post #47 ;)
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: oldraven on April 01, 2009, 11:59:44 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;265271
See post #47 ;)
I see what you did there. :cheers:
I still think we'd be better off with stricter labour laws than with a redundant Union, but I get what you're saying. The media has been painting them as the evil industry killer. Not that they don't have a point, with certain Unions out there.
And there are specific trades that are accounted for by Labour Laws. For the record, I have many union workers in my family, including my mother, who would still be making little more than minimum wage if it weren't for them. But I have to wonder why she was paid so little to begin with. Labour Laws already exist for the public sector (she's been a custodian for the Straight Regional School Board since I was in Elementary School), including those for Teachers. I'm not sure what it's like in the US, but our Labour Laws are very inclusive and cover a large range of sectors, so the Unions have no real purpose here other than to get higher wages for members (and drive away jobs), when every skilled worker should be entitled to that same pay, member or not, and should have wages that can keep the companies competitive. If there's an area the Laws are lacking, well.... fix them. This is a personal opinion, because I've never heard this argument from any kind of media outlet.
neither have I, often wonder about that when the Union bug comes around.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: jcassity on April 02, 2009, 12:20:48 AM
Quote from: daddybair7;265259
Well watchin the news last night the honda plant in marysville ohio is cutting production,
Heard anything further on the local beats about this?
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: daddybair7 on April 02, 2009, 12:41:38 AM
Jcassity no I haven't missed the news tonight neighbers dog kill one of my dads calfs yesterday morning so when my dogs start acting up I was outside with the spot light. My outside dogs consist of 2 jackrussels,and a beagle/sheperd mix all females ill keep an update on the honda thing if I hear anymore. Well my take on the auto thing is 1. All of them are in a downfall 2. Union or nonunion the ceos and investors if they don't keep up with time they fall on their asses 3. All the media has been on the big 3 and all the others have been able to fly under the radar untill now 4.I need to win the lottery lol Well that's my thoughts even though they don't count for much just hopeing ford survives and starts makeing a new foxbody car again.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: jcassity on April 03, 2009, 12:05:38 AM
what would be neat is if they would come out with all original classics.
imagine a 2009 / 1987 20th anny or, a 2009 - 1988 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe!
Savings on the audo industry,, perhaps Reason is all the engineering is already done, ford probably has records on all the build sheets, tooling would probably be a minimum.
Chevy can just come out with the 2009 / whatever year they want to.
Imagine your second chance to buy a car from days gone by but its brand new!!
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 20thanniver-ls on April 03, 2009, 12:14:19 AM
Quote from: jcassity;265613
what would be neat is if they would come out with all original classics.
imagine a 2009 / 1987 20th anny or, a 2009 - 1988 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe!
Savings on the audo industry,, perhaps Reason is all the engineering is already done, ford probably has records on all the build sheets, tooling would probably be a minimum.
Chevy can just come out with the 2009 / whatever year they want to.
Imagine your second chance to buy a car from days gone by but its brand new!!
And the screwed up part about that is, Most of our cars (I'm using 302's as an example) Get between 20-28 mpg's, when they are normally driven or cruisin' down the highway. Most v-6 cars now boast 26-28 mpg highway like they're so f*ckin economical. Cars were built so much better 15-20 years ago. When now does a 3700 lb V-8 get that kind of mileage? It would be awesome if they brought some of these cars back, probably a lot cheaper to build too.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: V8Demon on April 03, 2009, 12:49:18 AM
Quote
imagine a 2009 / 1987 20th anny. or, a 2009 - 1988 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe!
Savings on the auto industry,, perhaps Reason is all the engineering is already done, ford probably has records on all the build sheets, tooling would probably be a minimum.
What about all the safety standards that have been put into place within the past 20 or so years? Airbags for one. These cars weighed 3400 pounds or so back in the day. I'm sure if you brought them up to 2009 safety regulations without subtracting anything, they would make a new Charger look svelte. If the stock braking system in place from then was placed on a car produced today I would expect lawsuits aplenty.
There are VERY few cars produced today that are up to snuff with these as far as sound deadening. I can hear every grain of sand that enters the rear wheel wells on my Mustang if I leave the radio off. Unfortunately, it's an area in most newer vehicles that has been treated to a scalpel in the interest of weight reduction.
Let's not forget the cost to design and implement how to add these features to an already existing design on a frame that was first seen in 1979 (and most likely designed in '75). The same frame that has the rigidity of a wet noodle. Install subframe connectors and you'll agree.
Quote
Most v-6 cars now boast 26-28 mpg highway like they're so f*ckin economical. Cars were built so much better 15-20 years ago. When now does a 3700 lb V-8 get that kind of mileage?
What car produced RIGHT NOW and for sale in the North American market has an 8 cylinder 150 HP gasoline engine? NONE. At interstate speeds over distances of 150+ miles I've averaged 24-25 MPG in my Mustang. That's WITH the supercharger. Approximately 3 times the available horsepower and a torque PLATEAU (curve would be an insult). 12 second quarter mile runs vs 16-17 second runs with similar weight/gas mileage along with better stopping, handling, and the higher probability of survival in the event of a horrific incident.
There have been a few comparisons that I can think of where cars were compared by decade in categories like average power average weight and average fuel economy. I remember seeing one about 3 years ago in a Car & Driver magazine comparing the '80's, '90's, and 2000's. Average power doubled in that time frame while weight increased something like 45% all while maintaining similar fuel economy numbers.
This is a testament to how engineering goes hand in hand with marketing. During that time frame and up until hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans did most American consumers really give much thought as to whether or not their new vehicle was "green" so to speak? If it was then of course that was great, but things like interior volume, trunk space, towing capacity, available payload, horsepower, and a myriad of others took precedence over fuel economy for the average consumer. The SUV boom is proof enough of that.
Take a Ford 460 circa 1986 and drop it in the newest King Ranch Edition of the Ford F-150 what kind of mileage do you think you'll get with a set of 3.73's out back? Think it would be able to out accelerate the 6.8V10?
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: shame302 on April 03, 2009, 09:27:21 AM
Quote
Quote: Most v-6 cars now boast 26-28 mpg highway like they're so f*ckin economical. Cars were built so much better 15-20 years ago. When now does a 3700 lb V-8 get that kind of mileage? What car produced RIGHT NOW and for sale in the North American market has an 8 cylinder 150 HP gasoline engine? NONE. At interstate speeds over distances of 150+ miles I've averaged 24-25 MPG in my Mustang. That's WITH the supercharger. Approximately 3 times the available horsepower and a torque PLATEAU (curve would be an insult). 12 second quarter mile runs vs 16-17 second runs with similar weight/gas mileage along with better stopping, handling, and the higher probability of survival in the event of a horrific incident.
Dito. best average over a long trip was 31.3 MPG with approx 330HP and weighing in at around 3400
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: oldraven on April 03, 2009, 10:20:22 AM
If Ford brought back the foxbody they would be a laughing stock. I don't think tooling costs would be at a minimum, since most companies destroy their factory tooling once the parts are out of production. Maybe an adapted Fox IV design could have been made back in 2005, but I'd be willing to bet there's nothing left of the tooling that was used to make the '04 Mustangs.
So not only would they have to start from scratch at the factory, they would also, like V8Demon said, bring it up to current safety/refinement standards. Compared to most chassis in the market today, the Fox was like a limp noodle. Everybody is telling the D3 to adapt or die. Adapting is building new and more refined cars, not going back to a 30 year old chassis that was discontinued five years ago.
They would be a laughing stock.
They need a light RWD chassis that is 100% new and refined with German poise and dynamics, that will spuppies amazing and loved cars like they did when they developed the Fox cars, but that can't actually be a Fox. It would be like VW bringing back the original Beetle. When your competitors are moving into the next decade and the buying public thinks you're stuck in the past, it would be suicide.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 86XR7project on April 03, 2009, 10:31:37 AM
Quote from: oldraven;265645
If Ford brought back the foxbody they would be a laughing stock. I don't think tooling costs would be at a minimum, since most companies destroy their factory tooling once the parts are out of production. Maybe an adapted Fox IV design could have been made back in 2005, but I'd be willing to bet there's nothing left of the tooling that was used to make the '04 Mustangs.
So not only would they have to start from scratch at the factory, they would also, like V8Demon said, bring it up to current safety/refinement standards. Compared to most chassis in the market today, the Fox was like a limp noodle. Everybody is telling the D3 to adapt or die. Adapting is building new and more refined cars, not going back to a 30 year old chassis that was discontinued five years ago.
They would be a laughing stock.
They need a light RWD chassis that is 100% new and refined with German poise and dynamics, that will spuppies amazing and loved cars like they did when they developed the Fox cars, but that can't actually be a Fox. It would be like VW bringing back the original Beetle. When your competitors are moving into the next decade and the buying public thinks you're stuck in the past, it would be suicide.
If only they could build us cars like that and not charge an arm and a leg to buy it.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on April 03, 2009, 10:39:13 AM
How about just resembling the fox bodies of the 80's ,like Dodge has done with the Charger and Challenger . If i had an extra 30+k lying around I'd be a Challenger owner.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 86XR7project on April 03, 2009, 10:41:14 AM
Quote from: yankeepete;265650
How about just resembleing the fox bodies of the 80's ,like dodge has done with the Charger and Challenger . If i had an extra 30+k lying around I'd be a Challenger owner.
Some how I don't know how successful that would be. People aren't wanting Fox bodies as badly as 60s cars from yester-year. I'd love to see the Fox body look return but thats me.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on April 03, 2009, 10:53:42 AM
What I think could be a great retro production for Ford would be the Torino of the mid to late 70's , its similar to the foxes with with the swept front and 4 lights . If they did it right I could see it being a sharp looking car.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: 86XR7project on April 03, 2009, 11:28:26 AM
I would love a today rendition of the 70-71 Torino Fastback. That would be in my garage right away.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: daddybair7 on April 04, 2009, 02:04:36 AM
well i called the news channel that did the report on the honda plant and hears what i was told . quote:We only did that story because of the layoffs for ratings porposes only because there was nothing to report on GM,Chyrstler,or Ford :end quote that was from the lady who answered the phone aint that some shiznit:beatyoass: :punchballs:
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: oldraven on April 04, 2009, 10:03:07 AM
Quote from: daddybair7;265758
well i called the news channel that did the report on the honda plant and hears what i was told . quote:We only did that story because of the layoffs for ratings porposes only because there was nothing to report on GM,Chyrstler,or Ford :end quote that was from the lady who answered the phone aint that some shiznit:beatyoass: :punchballs:
Incredible. They're not even trying to pretend it's for news reasons. They just didn't have a reason to on the domestics that day.:mad:
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: daddybair7 on April 04, 2009, 07:31:17 PM
like i said it was from the lady who answered the phone but thats how the news works these days
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: jcassity on April 06, 2009, 03:53:22 AM
Quote from: yankeepete;264982
Where is this bailout coming from ,they are asking for a low interest fixed rate LOAN, not a bundle of cash that they have no intention of paying back . We would be more likely to get our money back from GM ,Chrysler,and Ford then AIG, CITI or Bank of America ,I would almost guarantee it .If we can give AIG over 85 Billion so they can go on vacation and hand out bonuses I think we could risk a loan to the car makers.
just an update,, AIG got thier retention fees so will someone else............... Seems we are getting played. Lets sound all pissed off for the america ,,then double back because we have pork in it.
(04-03) 11:37 PDT WASHINGTON, (AP) --
Mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac plan to pay more than $210 million in bonuses through next year to give workers the incentive to stay in their jobs at the government-controlled companies.
The retention awards for more than 7,600 employees were disclosed in a letter from the companies' regulator released Friday by Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa, the senior Republican on the Senate Finance Committee. The companies paid out nearly $51 million last year, are scheduled to make $146 million in payments this year and $13 million in 2010.
Initially after the AIG flap, President Barack Obama had said he would "do everything we can to get those bonuses back." But the White House later backed down as it worked to ensure any restrictions on bonuses didn't alienate the banks and investors needed to help clean up the financial mess.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: yankeepete on April 06, 2009, 11:45:58 AM
My question is a simple one ,why would you want to retain the services of employees that are obviously unable to do their jobs competently . If they don't want to take they cut or deferment of the retention bonus they can hit the bricks. Look at that I just saved Fannie Mae and Freddie 210 mil ,not counting the salaries of these incompantant ,arrogant idiots who feel they are entitled to something for doing a poor,no terrible job. In today's job market there are plenty of candidates that are capable of taking over the vacancies this would create and would send the message ,if you can't do your job we'll find some one who can. When i was growing up and played little league they kept score and not everyone got a trophy ,this it take a village and we're all winners mentality has watered down and is killing our ideas that only a job well done is rewarded. If your actions have contributed to the failure of your company ,how can you possible believe that you should still have your lob ,let alone be given a bonus.
Title: It's do or die for GM, Chrysler: GM given 60 days, Chrysler 30
Post by: jcassity on April 06, 2009, 03:28:39 PM
I dont agree with it,, i agree with you. I just thought it was note worthy to follow up on the shrewd behavior of the gov't sayin one thing then behind closded doors doing another. Our terms of what was was were a little differnt, thats all.
Ill bet plenty of people out there think AIG didnt get that money,,,, a little follow up does a lot for my sanity.