Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: odie12372 on March 16, 2009, 03:09:46 PM
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: odie12372 on March 16, 2009, 03:09:46 PM
I have an 87 merc. cougar 20th ann. edition. Back during the summer of 2008 it started having problems.. It started cutting back.. It wasn't real bad at first I could just work the throttle and the car would pick up and go on. By the end of the summer it got to the point it would just cut out and cut off. As the temperatures here in South Carolina cooled off the issue went away til last weekend where the temp arose back into the 70's. This issue comeback with a vengence.. It cut out.... cut off... backfiring.... I went to cool cats for help but, there web site sent me here... There website said the TFI module had a known issue.. What pins do I check and in what sequence... This car has 208,000 miles on it... so any help would be greatly appreciated... Thanks, Odie
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: jpc647 on March 16, 2009, 04:21:24 PM
engine size?
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on March 16, 2009, 04:25:55 PM
jpc - It's a 5L as with all 20ths.
Do you have a code-reader? It could be a bad or temperature sensitive sensor. It could easily be a bad fuel pump too! If no codes & not fuel related, it could be the TFI module which has a known overheating problem. Easiest way to confirm the TFI is to replace it - lol :hick: (perhaps you can check for spark after it shuts off.)
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: pleasure's Cougar on March 16, 2009, 04:51:22 PM
Quote from: odie12372;261940
...the TFI module had a known issue.. What pins do I check and in what sequence... This car has 208,000 miles on it... so any help would be greatly appreciated... Thanks, Odie
Hi Odie, not sure if this is what you're looking for, but the following link is for testing the TFI Module and includes detailed instructions including schematics. Hope it helps.
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: V8Demon on March 16, 2009, 05:12:39 PM
I love Joel's write ups!
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: Haystack on March 16, 2009, 09:50:50 PM
if its on a 88 v-6 its mounted near the radiator in some sort of heat sink.
Disregaurd that...
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: jcassity on March 16, 2009, 10:03:14 PM
all you need to pull codes is a paper clip and a test light or 12v buzzer from radio shack.
cost, under 2 bucks
Title: How do I use paper clip and test light to retrieve codes?
Post by: odie12372 on March 16, 2009, 11:37:37 PM
How do I use paper clip and test light to retrieve codes? I've heard of people doing it... I've never actually done it... I just thought that was a myth.
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: ~AC on March 16, 2009, 11:50:58 PM
after you check the tfi and pull codes and if everything seems to check out.. check the fuel lines, filters, pump, and connections. the f150 with a 302/c6/8.8 had for fuel lines and connections causing it to backfire, stumble, cut out, and barely idled even after infinite adjusting the idle.
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: odie12372 on March 17, 2009, 12:53:59 AM
The car was give to me... The car sat for 3 years.... I had to put a fuel pump in it about 16 mths ago just to get it running and a new fuel filter.. The first 10 tanks of fuel I ran through this car was with lucas injector cleaner... Then I started mixing it with marvles mystery oil... when this started I put another fuel filter on it 6 months ago... but, the problem was still persistant.. a new fuel pump relay... a new tps sensor. Because the old one had cracks in it. run a fuel pressure test.. it's putting out 40lbs. of pressure.. what does a modulator valve do.. Is it like pressure regulator? remember 208,000 miles... 98% of this car is still factory... Just replaced the factory plastic coated timing chain cam sprocket last month ... To get rid of the knocking sound in the motor... But, when I put the grounding bar back in it's block after setting the timing @ 10 degree's btdc.. And I start the car back up. the timing jumps to 20-25 deg. btdc.. Is this a computer preset? Is this normal?
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on March 17, 2009, 10:51:06 AM
20 degrees of timing (+/- adjustments to maintain steady idle) is normal at idle.
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: odie12372 on March 17, 2009, 11:58:18 AM
Ok I just tested the TFI module Using the charts from the website pleasure cougar gave me the link to.. Some of the values matched perfectly... Some of them the values were off by whole numbers... I think TFI module is bad.. What do you all think? Thanks, Odie
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on March 17, 2009, 12:21:23 PM
I just read a post where a fellow brought his to Autozone and they tested it for him. If it's bad, you should obviously replace it. It may end up being wasted money if it wasn't the cause of your problems though, but that's how it goes with these issues sometimes.
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: odie12372 on March 17, 2009, 12:39:27 PM
well I called auto zone and they told me they couldn't test it.
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on March 17, 2009, 12:54:52 PM
Oh, well - here's the article where the fellow stated that Autozone tested the module -> http://www.howardsupply.com/ford-merkur-xr4ti/ford-merkur-tfi-module-problems.htm
It also shows how he relocated it to allow it to run cooler.
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: odie12372 on March 17, 2009, 04:25:14 PM
Well I had to call several auto zones till I found one that would test it. And it Passed on the cold test.... and failed on the hot test... After the hot test they gave it back to me and it was hot enough to burn.. Thats HOT!!! I just put a new one on and it seems to be working .... I reset the timing 10btdc. and drove it 2-3 miles.... so far so good.. Thank yall for all the informative sites..... Hopefully I can return the favor sometime Thanks, Odie
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on March 17, 2009, 04:28:50 PM
Good luck - you'll know for sure if it's fixed on a hot summer day ;)
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: odie12372 on March 18, 2009, 06:58:26 AM
But, I would still like to know how to use a paper clip and a test light to get the codes from the computer... The service light still coming on..
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on March 18, 2009, 10:10:14 AM
Scott! Give this person a diagram on checking codes with stone knives and bearskins! :hick:
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: V8Demon on March 18, 2009, 10:31:29 AM
Quote from: odie12372;262284
But, I would still like to know how to use a paper clip and a test light to get the codes from the computer... The service light still coming on..
(http://www3.telus.net/neat/eec4.gif)
(http://zenseeker.net/4x4/eec/4hup96.gif)
As per the DIY thread:
Quote
Diagnostic testing with codes 3 step method
**For more detailed info and other options to pulling codes, visit the Tech library at therangerstation.com. Scroll down on the left and click on EEC-IV Diagnostics under the "computer" section. To pull codes, locate your diagnostic connectors usually on the driver side engine bay. There are two connectors, one large female one has 6 pins sort of triangle shaped. 4 pins along the bottom row and 2 on the top row. Count these pins by looking into the connector and counting each row left to right. The second connector will be a single wire female plug as well located near the 6 pin female plug.
Below will be instructions on how to use a jumper wire to connect the "sig rtn" lead to the "sti". Here is where you would use a paper clip to make this jumper. The SIG RTN connetion is on the large connector , top row , right hand pin. (top row has two pins). The "STI" conneciton is the single wire lead near the diagnostic large connector. Read below and install the jumper when told to.
MEMORY CODES Memory codes are problems that the computer has noticed in the past. If for example there was a loose wire to a solenoid that only lost contact while driving but was making contact while testing the system there would be NO HARD FAULT CODE. The code would show up IN MEMORY. The same would happen for a sensor that only went out of range occasionally. Memory codes come out AFTER the separator pulse.
NOTE: The computer will erase the memory after a certain number of engine re-starts if the problem does not repeat itself. The number of re-starts varies from 20 to 80 depending on the year of the vehicle. The later models keep memory longer.
Clearing Codes These codes are kept in memory for 40 warm up cycles. To clear the codes for purposes of testing or confirming repair, perform the code reading procedure. When the fault codes begin to be displayed, de-activate the test by either disconnecting the jumper wire or releasing the test button on the hand scanner. Stopping the test during code transmission will erase the continuous memory. Do not disconnect the negative battery cable to clear the codes; the keep alive memory will be cleared and a new code (19) will be stored for loss of PCM power.
Below will mention using a test light instead of the check engine light during the instructions you will read. If you would like to be up near the engine and pull the codes then hook up the jumper wire when instructed and as described above. NOW, hook up a professional or riged up test light from the positive batter terminal to the large test connector , bottom row 2nd pin (STO pin) counting left to right looking into the plug. When you follow the steps below, the test light will strobe codes and how to decode them will follow below. I have used a 12dc buzzer i got out of an old microwave that gives me an audible tone. This makes it easier to focus on the paperwork end of the task so im not looking back and forth at a light and paper second guessing myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>START HERE STEP 1 Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) Method OR CHECK ENGINE LIGHT METHOD
The Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) on the dash (Engine Light) can be used to retrieve the stored codes. This method does not allow for any system investigation. This should only be used in the field where quick checks are needed. Follow the directions previously given for the scan tool procedure. To activate the tests, use a jumper wire to connect the signal return (SIG RTN) pin on the diagnostic connector to the Self-Test Input (STI) connector. The self test input (STI) line is the separate wire and connector with or near the diagnostic connector. Codes are transmitted with a pause between flashes. Code 32 would be sent as 3-flashes, a pause and then 2-flashes. A slightly longer pause separates the codes. The only way to repeat the code is to recycle the system. The Continuous Memory Codes are separated from the other codes by 6-seconds, a flash and then another 6-second delay. Compare the 2-digit and 3-digit Diagnostic Codes with the appropriate chart.
STEP 2
KEY ON ENGINE OFF (KOEO) TEST ************KOEO NOTE: On 4.9L trucks with a manual transmission hold the clutch pedal in during this test. On Diesel engine trucks hold the throttle to the floor during this test.
1. Make sure engine is fully warmed. If in doubt, run engine at 2000 rpm for 2 minutes. 2. Turn ignition off and wait 10 seconds for system to shut off. Make sure A/C is off and transmission is in Park (automatic) or Neutral (manual). 3. Hook up light and jumper (or a tester if you have one). Turn key to ON (do not start engine). 4. Fast Codes are output (ignore fast light flashes). NOTE: Unhook self test input jumper (or tester if used) at any time during code output to erase memory. 5. Read hard faults. 6. Separator Pulse. 7. Read memory codes. 8. See code explanations and check components as necessary. Use FIRST CODE OUTPUT and retest after any repairs are made.
STEP 3
KEY ON ENGINE RUNNING (KOER) TEST ***************KOER 1. Make sure engine is fully warmed. If in doubt, run engine at 2000 rpm for 2 minutes. 2. Turn ignition off and wait 10 seconds for system to shut off. Make sure A/C is off and transmission is in Park (automatic) or Neutral (manual). 3. Hook up light and jumper (or tester if you have one). 4. Make sure vehicle is safe to run and start engine. 5. Engine I.D. should be output. 6. Step on brake and turn steering wheel 1/4 turn. If the vehicle has an overdrive cancel switch, push it. 7. If a "Goose" pulse is received, move throttle quickly 1/2 way down and release. 8. Fast Codes are output (ignore). 9. Read codes. 10. See code explanations and check components as necessary. Use FIRST CODE OUTPUT and retest after any repairs are made.
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on March 18, 2009, 10:39:05 AM
Great Scott! Scott, you just got much uglier!
Thanks for helping out, Paul.
:hick:
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: odie12372 on March 20, 2009, 12:38:23 AM
Thanks for the details. Now I know the reason for the loss of power. My act sensor is bad. Thanks again
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: jcassity on March 20, 2009, 02:00:27 AM
ACT should have a resistance range,,see diy link below
sorry, out of town up in NJ at the Prnceton PPL.
i use a buzzer instead of a test light so i dont have to look away from the paper jotting down codes,, i hear them.
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: jcassity on March 20, 2009, 02:01:52 AM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;262311
Great Scott! Scott, you just got much uglier!
Thanks for helping out, Paul.
:hick:
im sure i have him beat.:D
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: V8Demon on March 20, 2009, 06:03:50 AM
Quote from: jcassity;262719
im sure i have him beat.:D
Depends on the subject ;)
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: odie12372 on April 03, 2009, 12:04:31 PM
thanks for the info on how to pull codes..... Two codes I'm not sure about...on my self run test with engine running... it throwed these four codes 12 rpm unable to reach upper test limit 13 rpm unable to reach lower test limit Ok I understand this.... I'm pretty sure my idle air contol valve is bad.. I unplugged it while the car was running and the car didn't cut off... which would explain the weird idle it has... Then next 2 codes 33 egr valve not opening.. how do I test this? 42 EGO/Hego shows systems rich ( right side hego) How do I test for this...
Title: Help...87 20th ann. cougar Trouble...
Post by: jcassity on April 03, 2009, 11:44:06 PM
Per the DIY LINK in my sig...........
============================= EGR/emissions solenoids (codes) Dual Thermactor Air control Solenoid Valve- both should read 51-108 ohms EGR Solenoid Vacuum Valve Assembly - both should read 32 to 64 ohms EGR Valve Position Sensor EVP (OR/W to brn/ltgrn resistance is 5.5k with no vac and 100ohms with vac)(4-6vdc on VREF or/wht) Electronic Vacuum Regulator EVR 30 to 70 ohms (koeo voltage is about 10.5vdc)
============================\ EGR test and EVP sensor test apply vac pres to egr vac line fitting. if it holds the diaphram for a long time,, the diaphram is good remove carbon buildup on egr base as well as egr base plate assy for 3.8l engines
EVP test (egr sensor) wire id... EEC PIN 26 "VREF" orange/white (parallels off to map) EEC PIN 27 "EVP SIGNAL" brown/light green EEC PIN 46 "SIG Return" black/white (parallels off to self test conn)
disconnect vac line disconnect elec conn hook ohm meter up to the VREF adn EVP Sig contacts hook up vac guage or apply vac to egr ohm meter should start out at about 5.5k ohms. as vac is increased to max, resistance should bottom out to no less than 100ohms.
key on, engine off cap off vac fitting on evp sensor measure for 4 to 6 volts dc between VREF and SIGNAL RETURN (ground)