General => Lounge => Automotive News & Fuel/Energy debate/discussion => Topic started by: Thunder Chicken on March 05, 2009, 12:46:25 PM
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 05, 2009, 12:46:25 PM
I think it's been years since this has happened. Certainly as long as I've been watching them GM stock was always worth 2-3x what Ford stock was worth. With all the trouble GM has been having the gap has been closing, and today it has closed. GM and Ford stock are both at the same value. They're both in the toilet, but at least they're in the same toilet.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 05, 2009, 01:08:03 PM
...and now Ford is at $1.84 and GM is at $1.82. Dunno if this actually means anything, but it's kinda an interesting thing...
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 05, 2009, 01:17:11 PM
It means they are both fugged (well more so GM than Ford :hick: ).
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: shame302 on March 05, 2009, 01:46:25 PM
rumor has it the B word has been floating around GM despite the so called bail out.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: 86XR7project on March 05, 2009, 02:28:49 PM
Too bad people don't buy cars from bankrupt companies. Saab proved that.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: mjbtbrd on March 05, 2009, 02:46:03 PM
The question now is would people buy a share of stock or spend a lil more and buy a spark plug for one of these vehicles.
It is sad
I have a feeling the bailout will not save them and unfortunately could be good money wasted.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: shame302 on March 05, 2009, 02:53:55 PM
Quote
I have a feeling the bailout will not save them and unfortunately could be good money wasted.
Ya think...geesh.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: 86XR7project on March 05, 2009, 03:03:05 PM
Chrysler and Fiat just announced a partnership that will begin on April 1st. Most of their future small cars will be Fiats (This is so Fiat can get into the U.S.) the funny thing is they didn't have to pay a dime to gain 35% of Chrysler and are interested in Daimler Merecedes remaining share. The future of American auto market is going to get REAL interesting this year.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 05, 2009, 05:10:21 PM
Quote from: 86XR7project;259728
the funny thing is they didn't have to pay a dime to gain 35% of Chrysler
Even funnier, Daimler had to pay to get rid of Chrysler. I certainly wouldn't take 35% of Chrysler unless you paid me...
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: 86XR7project on March 05, 2009, 05:14:17 PM
Fiat wants to get into the US so bad they'll do this. They say they are going to get Chrysler on its feet. Sounds like GM isn't going to be so lucky. Lets hope Ford holds it together long enough. Remember Ford lost 2.7 Million on the Aston Martin/Land Rover sale. Wasn't too long ago our favorite did the same.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: V8Demon on March 06, 2009, 01:31:28 AM
Top General Motors Corp. executives are more open to a speedy bankruptcy reorganization financed by the government, pushing aside earlier concern that such a move would scare away so many customers the company wouldn't survive, said a person familiar with the matter.
While the company still wants to avoid bankruptcy, the new view represents a reversal from GM's position late last year, when it sought a federal bailout. The change in thinking, combined with the disclosure Thursday that GM's auditor has raised "substantial doubt" about the car maker's ability to keep going, appears to move GM closer to the possibility it will file for reorganization.
The Treasury Department has been in talks with banks, auto suppliers, lawyers and other experts to get a better grasp of the cost and ramifications of a bankruptcy filing by one or more of the Detroit auto makers. GM's bankruptcy advisers, meanwhile, have been working on a plan to mitigate the impact a bankruptcy filing would have on GM's public image, said people familiar with the matter.
Now, honestly -- Why wasn't this more thoroughly investigated and researched by both GM and our fearless leaders before they threw money at a company in it's death throws?
How many other companies will undergo the same process after receiving this "bailout?"
I digress. This is one huge poop samm-ich.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: Cougar5.0 on March 06, 2009, 03:38:25 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;259820
I digress. This is one huge poop samm-ich.
:fart: I wish we had a puke smiley, 'cause that's how this whole situation makes me feel. :(
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: 86XR7project on March 06, 2009, 09:50:17 AM
V8Demon: I agree with you 100% why give that sinking ship all that money only for them to bleed it away in 4 or 5 months?
Cougar5.0::barf: :barf: We do have that smiley.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: Cougar5.0 on March 06, 2009, 10:11:04 AM
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 06, 2009, 12:45:21 PM
If only smilies had sound, too :D
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: mjbtbrd on March 06, 2009, 03:03:46 PM
How many other companies will undergo the same process after receiving this "bailout?"
Sadly many if not all
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: Lightningbird on March 06, 2009, 03:37:24 PM
Demon, I think you hit the nail on the head. I feel sorry for the Big 3 as I have always owned an American car...but if I buy one after the "bailout" is that not supporting communism since the gvt. pretty much paid them to stay afloat after they managed the business like . You see when they jumped in with both feet into money lending for the housing market, and now they are paying the price for a bad business move. Unfortunately all the UAW retirees will lose their retirement from GM if we let them go under. That would destroy an already dieing Detroit.
If you pull one string on the sack of poo the whole thing just starts ripping open.
The US Automakers need to downsize, re-identify with the American public, and bring back a slew of real American Cars...rear wheel drive economy cars with a slew of interior options, paint options, trim options and drive train options. Why not a 4 cylinder with or without turbo, a small 6 cylinder with or without turbo, or a Good Old American V-8 that is no less than 5 L.
US Automakers+this plan=:D :D
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: 86XR7project on March 06, 2009, 04:18:53 PM
As much as I hate to say it but if GM goes they're all f*cked.....
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: HAVI on March 08, 2009, 09:30:48 PM
In a short amount of time, we went from big SUV's to "green" cars. R&D had to be on top of its game for that sudden of a change. Unfortunately they weren't, IMO.
GM felt that filing bankruptcy was bad PR. Now if they go under after taking bailout money, it'll be worse PR. It's like unscrambling scrambled eggs, as I had read earlier today. Well, I see that's already been noted. Maybe someone can tell me if they could have downsized through lay-offs and other methods sooner if not for the UAW? Perhaps they could've survived that way.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: 86XR7project on March 09, 2009, 09:22:33 AM
Chrysler and Ford have the ability to make it GM unfortunately has way to many company branches. Opel just declared their independance from GM's management which in my mind is huge, Saturn is dead, Pontiac's head is on the block. Hummer and Saab are for sale and who really wants to buy those turds? The american car market hashiznit a rocky patch and GM needs help because they've made stupid decisions for so long (They all have) I guess they forgot the old K.I.S.S. mantra, every car became overcomplicated or unreliable or undesirable. Build a simple car that people want not cars loaded with garbage we don't need or think is ugly as sin.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: V8Demon on March 09, 2009, 03:27:56 PM
Apparently GM stock is inking to depression era like amounts....
Media reports claim the German government angrily denied Opel's $4.16 billion bailout proposal over receiving a "glossy 217-page brochure which read like an advertisp00get, rather than presenting any viable business
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 09, 2009, 11:37:25 PM
Quote from: HAVI;260203
In a short amount of time, we went from big SUV's to "green" cars. R&D had to be on top of its game for that sudden of a change. Unfortunately they weren't, IMO.
While I agree that the sudden shift in consumers' taste from the biggest thing they could fit in the driveway to the most fuel efficient car they could find had a big part in GM's downfall, it certainly wasn't the only contributor. GM, Ford and Chrysler were all bleeding profusely long before the economy took a dump. It's only that Ford was doing so badly a few years ago that they've managed to stay away from government handouts now. They were so broke a few years ago that they mortgaged the farm, and were only lucky that they did so while banks were still lending money. In other words, Ford got their bailout from the banks before everyone else started looking for bailouts from the government.
The only thing that the current economy and change in consumer taste has to do with what's happening now to the Big Three is that it was the sugar on the cake. Just when Ford and GM were starting to turn things around nobody was buying anything anymore. A perfect storm of an unprecedented shift in customer desires and a sudden and lengthly (albeit highly over hyped by the media) recession, combined with a very dismal recent past for all the big 3 is what got them where they are now. Ford looks better than GM right now because Ford had a head start when it got the loans, but only a few years ago the experts were predicting Ford's death.
One thing that makes me see red is when people blame the woes of the big 3 on their "forcing big, ugly vehicles on poor, unsuspecting consumers". People who hold that opinion know ZERO about the car business. NOBODY (except CAFE, I'll get on to that in a bit) forced Detroit to build trucks and SUV's. Trucks and SUV's became popular because people wanted them, and the more people wanted them the more popular they became. Manufacturers from all nations (including puppiesan, Korea, England, Sweden and Germany) couldn't build them fast enough. Porsche did not make the Cayenne because they wanted to force people to buy SUV's, they made it because people were buying SUV's. Toyota and Nissan joined the full size truck market because people were buying full sized trucks. Toyota even tried it in steps, and their attempts (T100, first Tundra, current Tundra) were not taken seriously until they built something every bit as big, ugly, and inefficient as the Big Three. Pity poor Kia, who only last year, in the midst of the firestorm against SUV's, released a new full sized SUV every bit as big as an Explorer, with V8 power to boot. Idiots would say that Kia was stupid to build that vehicle, but people who know realize that the vehicle was "green lighted" probably 5 years ago, when the SUV craze was in full swing.
CAFE: I am fully and strongly of the opinion that CAFE is responsible for the SUV craze. CAFE mandated small, shiznitty, but fuel efficient cars. Gas was cheap, so people didn't want small, shiznitty, but fuel efficient cars. They wanted big, powerful, substantial vehicles. They started buying trucks and SUV's because it was the only way to get such a vehicle, and CAFE only applied to cars. When people started buying trucks to use as personal transportation car companies obliged them by making the trucks more like cars inside. People didn't want Cavaliers, they wanted Tahoes. Since Tahoes were selling like hotcakes and were bringing in more profit per vehicle GM (and all other manufacturers except perhaps Ferrarri) focused on trucks SUV's. It all boils down to CAFE forcing manufacturers into making vehicles too small, too tinny. And CAFE was brought about as a panic answer to a fuel crisis.
35MPG CAFE standards, also brought about by a fuel price panic, might have had a similar effect, except this time they government was smart enough to not exempt trucks. Technology, thankfully, will save us from having Geo Metros forced down our throats. GM's 3.6 DI V6 and Ford's Ecoboost 4 and V6 are all fine proofs that higher fuel economy does not mean we'll see 88 horsepower Mustangs again any time soon
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: jcassity on March 09, 2009, 11:42:13 PM
I am starting to like what i see from ford. I wonder if they are actually going to refuse stimulus money per npr news today. Maybe they might start thinking like a small buisness and start using lanugage like "grow" or "lets become".
I am hopeful.
For gm,, hopeful as well but I see from as many news sources i can absorb that we dont really have the full story on thier long term intent if the stimulus is accepted / used. I bet we end up with a big three again but one will be from across the pond.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: V8Demon on March 10, 2009, 02:15:30 AM
Quote
Ford got their bailout from the banks before everyone else started looking for bailouts from the government.
Ford has to pay their own loans.....NOT me....;)
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 10, 2009, 08:48:49 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;260518
Ford has to pay their own loans.....NOT me....;)
Only because Ford was in such poor shape a few years ago. Had Ford not got those loans when the getting was good they'd have had their hand out right alongside GM and Chrysler. It was not due to clever thinking by Ford, it was because they were near bankruptcy ;)
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: 86XR7project on March 10, 2009, 10:37:12 AM
GM is the one that looks to be the worst off, I think Ford and Chrysler (With Fiat's help) could make it now.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: V8Demon on March 10, 2009, 11:18:51 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;260546
Only because Ford was in such poor shape a few years ago. Had Ford not got those loans when the getting was good they'd have had their hand out right alongside GM and Chrysler. It was not due to clever thinking by Ford, it was because they were near bankruptcy ;)
I could care less how either one got into the mess, but when it ultimately has an effect on my wallet -- and that of my children -- and I receive absolutely nothing in return, that's when I have issue.
I understand that a company has to pass off operating costs, but at the same time I shouldn't have to pay when they go belly up due to an inability to adapt. Such has been U.S. policy for over a century. Invade and rebuild. Now the concept strikes all too close to home.
As far as Ford -- clever thinking? No, of course not. Clever thinking would have kept all 3 in the black. Looking at how GM has borrowed against workers retirement funds though, perhaps they were in just as bad a shape at the same time....Wouldn't be the first time books were cooked.
Title: GM and Ford stock at the same value
Post by: HAVI on March 10, 2009, 01:32:41 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;260567
Looking at how GM has borrowed against workers retirement funds though, perhaps they were in just as bad a shape at the same time....Wouldn't be the first time books were cooked.