General => Lounge => Topic started by: jcassity on February 28, 2009, 12:55:38 AM
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: jcassity on February 28, 2009, 12:55:38 AM
My power company (allegheny power) sent a flyer in my power bill last month indicating my bill is going to increase 15% due to ,,,,and I quote.......
"due to the dramatic rise in caol prices, which is the single mlargest component of Allegheny's cost of producing electricity"
This is on top of the 11% increase announced in july08.
Now.... looking at this and other sources http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/page/coalnews/coalmar.html
It would appear that this company http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/page/coalnews/coalmar.html would actually be getting funding to mine more coal , and pass the cost of them setting up / tooling up to do so,,, just so that very coal can be sent here http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2009-02/23/content_7501424.htm
Isnt this like an advance bailout bypassing the govt and pinching the public. Perhaps they( the power company) figures the public at large is too distracted to notice.
I see coal prices going down. I am really pissed at this whole rate increase.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: rancheronut on February 28, 2009, 02:09:33 AM
that why, in my home town where fighting to stop some goofballs from installing there old 1800 technology.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: 86XR7project on February 28, 2009, 08:57:53 AM
They just stopped a Coal plant just got halted from being built out here. Dude it sounds like they are hurting for money like everyone else. Make up a story why they need more money PROBLEM SOLVED! Unfortunatly for them the world doesnt like to be taken advantage of.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: ipsd on February 28, 2009, 09:22:21 AM
Sounds like to me that you guys are forgetting that those companies aren't buying that stuff at todays prices. Like those people that make those bottles of oil they bought there BASE a little while back and then work it so you have the item you want NOW. If you look at it like this Oil prices are down but the price of a quart of oil is still high. Why cause when the oil company bought that BASE the price was way up so they can't just cut the price and loose there hind end cause the price of the base is so cheap today. If you paid $2quart to make the oil your not gonna sell it with out making some $$$ too. Not saying that makes it right but that is what is going on across the nation. Now witch ones really are doing it for a reason and witch are doing it to make some extra dollars that is one that I don't think any of us have the answer to.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: 20thanniver-ls on February 28, 2009, 10:11:29 AM
My bill has a fuel adjustment increase in the summary section of the bill, and my fuel cost adjustment rose to 47 dollars last month - insane but then again the companies know they can make the money b/c electricity is needed.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: HAVI on February 28, 2009, 10:41:59 AM
I am at the mercy of the local Co-op for my heating, and power use. They sent a flyer a couple months ago also. I'm crossing my fingers.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: Cougar5.0 on February 28, 2009, 11:30:27 AM
Quote from: ipsd;258908
Sounds like to me that you guys are forgetting that those companies aren't buying that stuff at todays prices. Like those people that make those bottles of oil they bought there BASE a little while back and then work it so you have the item you want NOW. If you look at it like this Oil prices are down but the price of a quart of oil is still high. Why cause when the oil company bought that BASE the price was way up so they can't just cut the price and loose there hind end cause the price of the base is so cheap today. If you paid $2quart to make the oil your not gonna sell it with out making some $$$ too. Not saying that makes it right but that is what is going on across the nation. Now witch ones really are doing it for a reason and witch are doing it to make some extra dollars that is one that I don't think any of us have the answer to.
Except that they raised prices IMMEDIATELY when the BASE price when up, and took their time LOWERING the prices as the BASE cost went down. If you look at Exxon/Mobile, there's no "losing their hind end" going on, exactly the opposite in fact. WE'RE the ones "losing our hind end"!
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: 20thanniver-ls on February 28, 2009, 12:00:14 PM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;258921
Except that they raised prices IMMEDIATELY when the BASE price when up, and took their time LOWERING the prices as the BASE cost went down. If you look at Exxon/Mobile, there's no "losing their hind end" going on, exactly the opposite in fact. WE'RE the ones "losing our hind end"!
Hence the start of this economic depression...;)
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: Jim_Miller on February 28, 2009, 12:05:55 PM
wtf they doing buying coal for power in the year 2009 anyway?
Not to make this political (although actually it all boils down to that) and I'm not a real Obama fan... but I believe part of his plan to do away with dirty sources of energy (electricity) in the US. Bailout is passed, 700bill out there right now, is your area looking to grab any of that up to clean up these sources of energy? Solar Wind or the one I think is great Geothermal http://geothermal.marin.org/pwrheat.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6r_3AgI49Y&feature=related
some areas are less likely to be able to generate electricity this way, but as I also understand his plan is to connect all areas of the US with lines... the plant may be in California (and other places) but the wires would run national. So where in the US would be irrelevant.
What does this have to do with your bill going up now? Well not much, but if you see any projects like this popping up in your area, support them (is really all you can do other than refuse to pay your bill.. but I don't think that would go over real well with the wife and kids).. with any of these sources they rely very little on outside materials, coal, oil, etc. you simply need to maintain the facility's, wages, maintenance, etc... the same cost your Coal plants or any other plant also have. once the hole is drilled (the source), hot water is free, the wind is free, the sun is free. I'm lucky here in Wa. we have Hydro power. http://www.bpa.gov/corporate/ We get discounts for saving electricity because BPA sells it to Cal where they pay a premium. it does look like we may also have a rate increase coming soon however. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29153235/ 9.4 percent.. the first one in 6 years.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: jcassity on February 28, 2009, 12:26:56 PM
jim I coulnt agree more with you and on a side note, barry is for clean coal technology, if there is such a thing.
The price took a spike last fall and went back to its traditional cost over the past few years. WV has experienced the highest increase in electricity costs (78%), more than any state all of which happened in the past 6 years.
BTW, I am on page 259 of the bail out package. the last 450 page bail out under bush was easier to read.
I dont think the power company is hurting, i think we are on the ever going capital venture to sell our resources to china like we have been.
Of your 39 counties in Washington State, there are 230 surface mines.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: jcassity on February 28, 2009, 12:42:33 PM
Quote from: ipsd;258908
Sounds like to me that you guys are forgetting that those companies aren't buying that stuff at todays prices. Like those people that make those bottles of oil they bought there BASE a little while back and then work it so you have the item you want NOW. If you look at it like this Oil prices are down but the price of a quart of oil is still high. Why cause when the oil company bought that BASE the price was way up so they can't just cut the price and loose there hind end cause the price of the base is so cheap today. If you paid $2quart to make the oil your not gonna sell it with out making some $$$ too. Not saying that makes it right but that is what is going on across the nation. Now witch ones really are doing it for a reason and witch are doing it to make some extra dollars that is one that I don't think any of us have the answer to.
I am sharp enough to understand that, the reason i brought it up though is because i dont see the global justification based on the 9 reports I looked at. All the reports and stock prices have agreed this last fall event was a spike unlike anything in the past few years. The can of oil you buy now should be going down in price soon , correct? Its like a gallon of milk price. Some people work one hour to pay for a gallon of milk.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: softtouch on February 28, 2009, 04:37:16 PM
Quote from: Jim_Miller;258923
wtf they doing buying coal for power in the year 2009 anyway?
Not to make this political (although actually it all boils down to that) and I'm not a real Obama fan... but I believe part of his plan to do away with dirty sources of energy (electricity) in the US. Bailout is passed, 700bill out there right now, is your area looking to grab any of that up to clean up these sources of energy? Solar Wind or the one I think is great Geothermal http://geothermal.marin.org/pwrheat.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6r_3AgI49Y&feature=related
some areas are less likely to be able to generate electricity this way, but as I also understand his plan is to connect all areas of the US with lines... the plant may be in California (and other places) but the wires would run national. So where in the US would be irrelevant.
What does this have to do with your bill going up now? Well not much, but if you see any projects like this popping up in your area, support them (is really all you can do other than refuse to pay your bill.. but I don't think that would go over real well with the wife and kids).. with any of these sources they rely very little on outside materials, coal, oil, etc. you simply need to maintain the facility's, wages, maintenance, etc... the same cost your Coal plants or any other plant also have. once the hole is drilled (the source), hot water is free, the wind is free, the sun is free. I'm lucky here in Wa. we have Hydro power. http://www.bpa.gov/corporate/ We get discounts for saving electricity because BPA sells it to Cal where they pay a premium. it does look like we may also have a rate increase coming soon however. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29153235/ 9.4 percent.. the first one in 6 years.
Don't sneer at coal. We would be a third world country today If we never had it. The money spent buying it stays at home.
Since you can't store the electricity generated by wind and solar you still need a stable power source. Nuclear power is the only stable non-carbon fuel power source currently available.
Hydro is great for clean power but bad for the ecology of the rivers. So nothing is perfect. The availability of hydro is already maxed out.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: Jim_Miller on March 01, 2009, 12:30:23 AM
ff
Quote from: softtouch;258946
Don't sneer at coal. We would be a third world country today If we never had it. The money spent buying it stays at home.
Since you can't store the electricity generated by wind and solar you still need a stable power source. Nuclear power is the only stable non-carbon fuel power source currently available.
Hydro is great for clean power but bad for the ecology of the rivers. So nothing is perfect. The availability of hydro is already maxed out.
I agree it had it's place, but also feel it is long over due from being replaced.
define "stable" for me as you mean it here. Hydro seems stable, as does geothermal.
Yes hydro DID mess the rivers up from what they should have been naturally, I say 'DID" since I believe you are also correct about it being maxed out... you can't just put a dam on any river and expect it to work.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: softtouch on March 01, 2009, 01:11:49 AM
Quote from: Jim_Miller;258985
define "stable" for me as you mean it here. Hydro seems stable, as does geothermal.
Don't know about geothermal or how much potential it has.
Power is used when it is generated. Wind and solar is variable with the weather and time of day. It can't be counted on to provide a specific amount of power at all times.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: jcassity on March 01, 2009, 01:27:33 AM
Quote from: softtouch;258991
Don't know about geothermal or how much potential it has.
Power is used when it is generated. Wind and solar is variable with the weather and time of day. It can't be counted on to provide a specific amount of power at all times.
The wide spread perception of solar is a little under rated. Here is my pen 15s project I finished up last fall. It came out very well, customer declined the UnigyII battery storage plan for green metering.
If anyone is interested in offering this service to thier customers, let me know and we can do a turn key operation. I see opportunity with every flat surface.
WOW, i just notice a typo in our case study........ http://www.alpha.com/Media/Documents/pen 15s-Phoenix_ParkingStructure%20case%20study.pdf ; ; ; ;
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 01, 2009, 10:10:43 AM
There is not going to be a single solution to our energy needs. Solar isn't perfect, especially if you live in the north. It will fill a void in the sunny southwest. Wind isn't perfect, especially if you live in an urban area. It'll fill a void in the plains and on the two coasts, where it's always windy. Hydro isn't prefect, especially if you live in the flatlands, but it'll fill a void in the wet, hilly areas. Tidal isn't perfect, especially if you happen to live nowhere near an ocean, but it'll fill a void in coastal areas. Nuclear isn't perfect, especially if you're a liberal or bunnyhugger, but it'll help fill a void just about anywhere none of the above solutions will work. Energy security is a multi-faceted problem that will require a multi-faceted solution. Hopefully having a myriad of generation options will also result in a breakdown of current monopolies.
Scott, you wanna see a reason to get pissed off at a power company, come to Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia Power was for years a government owned agency, but was spun off to private interests a few decades ago during a "holy shiznit, we need money now" government fire sale. One of the conditions of this sale was that the price of electricity would be government regulated. This alomst sounds like it'd protect the consumer, except for a little clause in the contract: The regulators must guarantee a 10% annual return on investment for shareholders. That's right, the citizens of Nova Scotia are forced to finance a 10% return on investment for shareholders. What this means is that even if the company has to do upgrades to infrastructure or headquarters (both of which it is currently planning) that money does not come out of company coffers. The citizens of the province will see increased power rates to pay for it, because the 10% ROI is guaranteed and cannot be touched. Imagine having a 10% ROI, guaranteed, especially during these economic times????
Now if that makes you see red, the best is yet to come. Several years ago a huge natural gas deposit was found in the waters off Nova Scotia. When drilling agreements were made part of it was that NSP gets first crack at the gas, at reduced prices. This was supposed to ensure that Nova Scotians benefit from the natural resource. Millions of dollars of public money was spent routing gas lines to the province's largest power plant, Tufts Cove. Tufts Cove was an oil burning plant, the idea was to convert it to cleaner, locally produced natural gas. NSP even converted their generators so that they could run on both oil and NG.
Then the price of NG skyrocketed. NSP had a guaranteed price. Instead of burning this cheap NG and saving customers money the company bought it at the cheap price, then resold it at the higher price. Meanwhile they continued to burn oil in the generators and went screaming to the gov't for higher power rates due to increased oil costs! The gov't naturally gave them their increase. Then another increase the following year. And the following year. They're taking our natural gas at below market prices and selling it to the northeastern USA at huge profits, then buying oil from Venezuela (yes, that's right, it's not even Canadain oil) at market price and begging for more money to pay for it, even as world oil prices have fallen by better than 60% in the past year.
Someone mentioned that oil companies are not buying fuel at today's prices, they're buying at a contract price determined months ago. This may be true, but that wasn't the argument they were using when prices were on their way up and they wanted price increases RIGHT NOW. In fact the gov't regulator only gave them half their requested increase because the regulator knew they bought their oil in advance and not at those high prices.
Now NSP is begging for ANOTHER increase, even though it just got one a few months ago, because it wants to renovate its headquarters in Halifax and upgrade the transmission lines it's neglected for decades (every time there's a gust of wind the power goes out, and it's always windy in NS). The gov't regulator suggested they dig into their profits for the money, and NSP had the absolute nerve to say "You can't touch our profits, they're guaranteed to us!"
And they're right! We, the people, will end up with another increase to pay once again for upgrades to equipment we'd been paying for decades for maintenance on but was not done!
So yeah, you're not alone in being pissed at electric companies. If I had to do it again I would most certainly be "off the grid".
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: EricCoolCats on March 01, 2009, 12:22:04 PM
Scott, was Allegheny Power recently deregulated? That could explain the price increase somewhat. Over the past few years several states including Pennsylvania allowed their electric companies to deregulate and let the free market determine pricing. Well guess what...I know this may come as a shock but prices went up.
We are keeping an eye on things in Ohio as deregulation is supposed to be slowly phased in. Fortunately our governor is keeping an eye on the process and has pledged not to allow gouging (and so far he's been a pretty decent governor).
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: jcassity on March 01, 2009, 01:24:19 PM
Thats some really crazy stuff you have going on up there in Halifax. I guess you have it worse than I do for sure.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: softtouch on March 01, 2009, 03:36:36 PM
Deregulation has worked great here. All that competition among power providers has really driven prices down.:hick: (NOT) I plugged ten years of my electric bills into a spread sheet and the trend is obvious.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: Haystack on March 01, 2009, 08:59:17 PM
That is pretty cool. Go to the news and give them those pictures of your graphs.
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: Jim_Miller on March 02, 2009, 02:25:38 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;259015
There is not going to be a single solution to our energy needs. Solar isn't perfect, especially if you live in the north. It will fill a void in the sunny southwest. Wind isn't perfect, especially if you live in an urban area. It'll fill a void in the plains and on the two coasts, where it's always windy. Hydro isn't prefect, especially if you live in the flatlands, but it'll fill a void in the wet, hilly areas. Tidal isn't perfect, especially if you happen to live nowhere near an ocean, but it'll fill a void in coastal areas. Nuclear isn't perfect, especially if you're a liberal or bunnyhugger, but it'll help fill a void just about anywhere none of the above solutions will work. Energy security is a multi-faceted problem that will require a multi-faceted solution. Hopefully having a myriad of generation options will also result in a breakdown of current monopolies.
Your correct, and as much as I hate to side with Obama (at least his words.. I'm slow to trust any politician) his plan addresses this (at least for the US). By interconnecting all the systems with lines coast to coast, where Solar or wind falls short hydro or Geo can pick up. Coal could be connected also as well as NG or any other source. All into the same grid. California could put in solar, Ill could do wind, Wa. has the Hydro... wouldent matter where you were in the US.. wouldent matter where the power was generated.. Price of Coal goes UP.. demand for Solar or wind would fill the void.
Lets see how bad "allegheny power" wanted that cost increase then. Jcasity wouldent HAVE to buy there power then.
Gotta admit.. it's a hell of a plan (on paper anyway)
Title: I am pissed about Electric costs
Post by: jcassity on March 02, 2009, 08:28:01 AM