Does anyone have a good condition fuel sending unit for an 88 thunderbird without electronic cluster? A TC one would work too!
All of the aftermarked ones don't specify whether or not they are for the electronic cluster or not, and the companies have no idea. Frustrating.
get the sender, it does not matter if its for an buttstuffog or digi cluster.
Once you have one, we can walk you through converting it if it needs to be convereted at all.
real simple to convert.
I have been told it can be converted, but no one has given me the instructions of how to.
I'm assuming that the only one that can be found is for a digital dash because its for the lincoln mark vii and stuff and I know those were all digital clusters.
Can you tell me the jist of the conversion, I would hate to buy one and find out I don't have the skills to convert it. I'm not dumb or inept just don't want to blow money.
only some of the lincolns had a digi gauge.
If you take the cover off the sender you have, and take a pic to verify which one you have, we can walk you through the rewire.
It should look like one of these 2 with the float cover off.
Telling you what to do before you know what it looks like inside could be a losing battle.
If you have a good digi sender, the reading should be in the range of 8-12 empty and anywhere from 143-161 full, depending on what year car it came out of.
The one on the right is the digi sender, buttstuffog on the left.
In a couple months I'll have another buttstuffog sender that will need a good home
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/fuel%20sender%20and%20pump/IMG_4897.jpg)
Are you sure the one on the right in your pic is the digi sender? Do you mean the one of the left? Ill attach a pic, but my pic came out of my 1987 full digital dash car. The reason I know they didn't get swapped when I had to put a new gas tank in is because the gauge worked fine before the motor swap, when I added gas the gauge did always go up fine. It appears not to jive with what your saying. Are the plugs different by chance?
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr148/jpc647/101_0904.jpg)
When you put a meter on this unit, what does it read full and empty?
That's the same as my buttstuffog sender. as the pointer moves closer to the black wire, the ohm reading should increase.
The digi unit has the wire on the opposite end which would make it read in reverse
Alright my meter is outside in the shed. Ill go check it asap.
Alright, the gauge i posted the pic of shows 91.2 at the very very bottom and 9.0 at the very top. I'm assuming the 8-86 testing amounts are with a very accurate testing unit, mines a blue point multi tester, but the amounts are pretty close. Now do keep in mind this is the digi sending unit I have. This came out of my white 87 parts car with the 5.0 and full digital cluster with the led light up tach and digi fuel gauge.
I know this because I few months ago I had t put a new gas tank in. At that time my car was a 3.8. I ended up using the fuel pump out of my 5.0 parts car because it was in better shape. The sending unit out of the buttstuffog gauge car was also used, I know this because the car was driven for a while and when I added gas the gauge went up and after driving it went down. I know the parts car sending unit(the one in the pic) worked correctly to becuase when I added gas last summer I remember it showing an 8 for the gallons when before I added the gas it showed 3.
What could be happening here? This is very strange.
OK, that's a buttstuffog sender then. and is working
the digi would read in the 140s- 160s range in the up position
alright. I still can't figure out why or how the digit sender got in there or how it worked...
That sender in the pic was in a car with this digital cluster?
http://www.coolcats.net/tech/general/8588digital.html (http://"http://www.coolcats.net/tech/general/8588digital.html")
that is correct. And the fuel gauge worked just fine. I remember being very amazed on how cool the digital fuel level was. I added 5 gallons in my yard one day then started it and it went from 3 to 8. I remember telling my father how excited I was because I planned on converting it one day.... but yes the sender i attached the picture was in a car with the dash from that site.
Well , that changes the whole sender theory.
Anyway, you have a working buttstuffog sender.
What car and year did it come out of?
Thats why I am so confused. The sending unit in my picture came out of a 1987 full digital dash car. I'll swap the sending units tomorow and see what happens. Maybe they did get swapped when i did the tank but that doesn't make sense because the gas gauge worked, it was around half a tank when the car first started runing again, then all of a sudden went to full.... maybe the sender is just bad... ill let you guys know soon.
Alright well I dropped the tank today. I put the one you said was for the buttstuffog gauge. I have added 10 gallons to the tank and it only went up to about 1/8 to 1/4. I tested the sending unit before going in again. The tank was just about bone dry when it was taken out. There might have been a gallon in the tank. Is this normal? I'm confused as to why it isn't around half. Is there a large reserve in the tank? The sending unit can only go in one way so its not in backwards. Are these gauges sort of innaccurate anyway?
I'm just curious..
Did you check to see if the wire with the float was bent the same as the other one before installing it? It might be throwing of your reading.
plug the sender into the harness and manually opperate it and watch the guage.
Im a little lost on this thread so i gotta catch up. you have another post on this issue and ill check there as well.
If your wiper arm contact is worn, it may be skipping over creating an open circuit. Open would equal zero ohms.
as for the float arm being bent,, the odds are slim unless little hoodlums got ahold of it and were playing with it like my boys when they were little.
I would love to have a traced out two line drawing of the actual bend so i can fix mine. the angle of that wire is calibrated and means the world to a proper reading guage.
what are the odds someone (hint hint) could post up the actual angle of the float arm?
Digi
first one is 60 deg.
2nd one is 130 deg.
buttstuffog
first one is 50 deg.
2nd one is 140 deg.
starting and stopping levels are the same.
as long as you use that formula. It should be OK
I'll get a pic later tonight
jpc647
This may be the reason for your tank reading.
You should check to make sure both of your senders start and stop at the same place. I'm not sure if a sender from an 18 gal. tank is the same as one from a 22 gal. tank, or where the diff in tanks are.
also
I should have told you to clean the contacts in the sender before putting it back together. I had to do that in mine, because it sat for so long without being used past the 1/2 mark. I wasn't getting a good reading.
I just took a pencil eraser and shined up the entire board in the unit. the rheostat will get a build up on it where the arm hasn't traveled in a while.
Alright well before I put the sending unit in the tank I moved the float up and down and the gauge seemed to move accordingly. The gauge look a few seconds to catch up to the sending unit.
Now that its been put in the tank it doesn't seem to work. I added 5 gallons and it barely moved to the red line on "E". I figured oh well the tank was almost dry and I thought maybe it could have a reserve section and it doesn't register on the gauge.I have since added 10 more gallons to the tank, which should bring it up pretty close to 3/4 and its barely about the 1/8 mark. It seems to teeter between the line right next to the red 8 and the second green mark.
Any ideas why this is happening? It seems the last few days I'm being bombarded with electrical stuff. First this them my temp gauge is acting wierd.
I've already swapped cluster thinking that might be it. Any input?
What does the tester read at the dash when checking the fuel sender?
sounds like you have a wiring problem between front and back possible a broken wire if your not getting a full signal at the dash.
Alright I got 46.8 Ohms at the cluster. I tested the y/w white in the drivers side plug and grounded it to the steering column. This should be somewhere close to half a tank, maybe a little more. But it barely moves past 1/8. I have two gauge clusters, swapped them out again, and they read the same thing. I don't think its a gauge, and im bashing my head into walls tot trying to determine what is wrong here.
Should be about right for a half tank.
Did you test the gauge using the paper clip to se it it pegs the gauge?
I'm thinking your gauge problems are somehow tied together with the other problems you posted.
I guess you can also use your meter as a temp gas gauge if this car is a DD. Just attach it with alligator clips till we find a solution. You know the full and empty ranges at least
We don't want you runnin out of gas by accident. ;)
To test the guage, insert a paper clip in the connector (C491)
turn on key
gas needle will peg if its good
gas needle will peg if its a conventional cluster
gas needle will go to empty if its a digital cluster sender
Those were the instructions. I'm not really sure what that means. Isn't the gauge not going to plug in because of the paper clip?
If that's the connector at the sender, the paperclip in the connector will make the gauge think that it's filled to the top in your car. just use the paperclip to jump the wires, instead of the sender connector..
If the gauge doesn't peg, the problem is after the sender.
There's probably another connector at the dash you can test the same way after you test the other one.
Did that make any sense?
yeah that makes sense.
I was thinking about this last night and came up with a possible solution. I know the sending unit worked when i plugged it in, I tested in outside the tank and watched the gauge. Either it is getting bound up in the tank on something(not likely) or I was thinking if there is a crimped or squashed wire under the tank, maybe my multitester can pick up the 48.6 ohms at the cluster plug but maybe its faint and the gauge isn't strong enough for the cluster to pick up. This maybe be dumb, but im running out of other ideas.
It would have to be a broken wire somewhere where you plugged it in I bet. You could try jiggling wires while someone watches the gauge or meter, or your going to have to start testing your wires.
you could always run a new wire and be done with it too.
do those wires run inside the car under the carpet?
The EVTM says the wires run under the floor, I checked the corresponding ground and it seemed okay. The problem is most lilkely going to lie at the sending unit or at the gauges. I would imagine its not the cluster because i have two and they both are reading the same thing.
Could maybe something on the tank be grounding out? I mean its a new reprouction tank, but I just can't figure out why im getting a correct reading at the gauge plugs but the gauge doesn't display correctly.
There are 15 gallons in the car maybe a little more, it should be more than 1/8 or a tank. I put the car on the hill in my yard and it moved a little bit towards the 1/4 mark.
Also, look above at the picture I attached of the sending unit. On the left side of the picture the metal strip seems worn/dirty or something. Is this normal? Could this be the problem?
If your getting the correct reading at the gauge plugs, then the problem has to after that. mabe the connector is the problem.
It worked fine, until it went into the car
did you use the paper clip to test it?
which ones am i testing. C491 is in the trunk. But there are two plugs going into one. there are 4 little pins. Am I just jumping the yellow and white wire and the black one? Like completing the circuit for the sending unit without plugging it in?
Sorry I ask dumb questions sometimes. I jumped the wired with a paper clip, the two pins from the sender side of plug c491. The gauge pegged. Way beyone full. What does this mean? That would mean the gauge works, and the sending unit appears to be sending the correct voltage, now I'll honestly say I'm confused.
can you jump the wires off the sender connector with the paperclip, and see if it pegs the gauge too?
What do you mean? If i jump the connectors on the sender end only its not connected to the wiring going to the gauge nothing is going to happen.
I thought it was connected to the gauge
I think he meant "unplug the sender, take the harness plug, jumper the wires, and look inside the car and see what happens", which it appears you've done.
Either that, or he meant plug the sender back in and jumper the wires with the sender connected (jumper between where the wire is soldered to the board and the "wiper") to eliminate the possibility of a short or poor connection in the sender itself...
Mitchell OnDemand's advice for testing the gauge itself:
What do you mean plug the sender in and jumper the wires with the sender connected? How is that possible?
Let's just start from the beginning so we can keep track of what we tested.......
Did you use the paper clip in this connector to try and peg the gauge?
This one plugs into the tank sender under the car.
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/fuel%20sender%20and%20pump/IMG_4915.jpg)
no. I did it from the connector in the trunk. I'll have to drop the tank again to do that. I was hoping it might be something else.
I'm begining to think the aftermarket tank might have something to do with it. All jumping the circuit does is tell us that the gauge will go to full right? Because didn't i accomplish that by jumping the circuit in the trunk? I'm just wondering.
If you pegged the gauge from the trunk, the wiring is more then likely ok from that point to the dash.
If the gauge doesn't peg from the connector in the pic, you have a wiring problem between the tank and the trunk.
if you peg the gauge from that connector in the pic, then we'll recheck the sender, and go from there.
Sorry, I wish there was an easier way to check this, but there isn't unless you cut a access door in the bottom of your trunk like what was discussed in a recent thread.
Jerry
all of the above sounds good to me. but................
If you decide to read from the trunk connector again, the only way to get the sender float to move is to pump gas out.
To do that, you go to the eec self test connector and ground the tan / light green wire prior to turning on your ign switch.
This will run your fuel pump full time. Disconnect the fuel rail feed and rig up a hose from your fuel feed to an empty gas jug.
With a meter already placed on the trunk connnector set to ohms,
your key on and the tan / light green wire grounded and fuel emptying into a gas jug, you should see the resistance change as the fuel level drops.
What this means is you did follow the instructions but technically, you needed to jumper the yellow and white wire with a 8-10ohm resistor.
That would properly simulate ............
Full- for an buttstuffog cluster and sender
Empty for a digital cluster and sender
Using the resistor would prevent the full peg effect. Its covered in my diy link by the way.
ok, lets think about one other variable that has already been suggested.
We have to remember that it takes very very little change in resistance to have a drastic effect on the cluster needle reading. The sender can read anywhere from 8 (full)- 90(empty) ohms on an buttstuffog sender. 8-15 extra ohms can force the buttstuffog cluster to read more empty sooner than full if the yellow wire has high resistance. Its a ratio thing and it makes sense.
Remember ,, an buttstuffog cluster's sender reads opposite from what you would logically think is correct. An buttstuffog sending unit empty resistance is high. Any additional resistance along the yellow wire will cause it to read "more empty" than what it normally would. (ie-higher resistance back at the sender / wiring = higher voltage drop along that path, thus less voltage delivered across the guage showing less fuel than what really is there.
-go to the yellow wire under the car as close to the tank sender as possible.
-penetrate that wire with a stick pin
-go to the yellow white wire up at the cluster (yes remove cluster again)
-insert your meter into pin 4 (yellow/white) of main cluster connector C285.
-jumper from the stick pin up to your other meter lead with as short of a wire as possible.
-read resistance
for whatever its worth, reading from the actual connector as mentioned would have yielded the most accurate resistance reading because that physical connector is pr0ne to corrosion and the like. All of this equals high resistance. remember, your symptoms are appearing like your sender is reading higher resistance than you think it should. Any additional resistance from the output of the guage to the ground side of the sender would cause faulty readings on the guage.
*******report back
Next,
I would check something new that i have pondered for you off and on. IN the EVTM, page 129, there is a resistance wire called out on pin 7 (black / light green)of cluster connecter C285.
The reason i bring this up is because you also mentioned you were having cooling needle issues as well.
We would all think the one thing in common is the cluster but you have swapped these with no change in your symptoms. We have to look now at what feeds the IVR (ie-pin 7 of C285 black / light green).
I have never ever had to check this wire so its up to you.
-locate the black/light green wire at both ends from the ignition switch to cluster c285 pin 7 black / light green.
-read the reisistance of that wire.
>jot down value
-increase the temp of this wire via a hair dryer (simulate heat produced by the dash being loaded with current in the form of watts.
>jot down value
*******report back
The resistance wire should hold at approx 8ohms.
I have not idea what the purpose of the "bare copper wire" is other than it may be a heat sync.
If it is a heat sync, then perhaps its not connected at one end and thus it is not pulling the heat off your resistance wire.
To improve the copper wires capability to remove heat from this wire, skin you up a bare copper wire and wrap this black / light green wire with it. connect the copper wire to a good chassis ground connection somewhere.
-reheat resistance wire and read resistance of approx 8 ohms.
If for any reason you think this wire is fubar (fuggered up beyond recognition), you can replace it with a solid wire making sure to insert an 8ohm resister in line with it.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Next....
with your cluster in, tell us how many volts you have appearing on the input to the fuel guage. You must have approx 5volts. there is more to this but I will leave it at that for now.
------------------------------------------------
look at the diagram below.
current travels through the igntion switch,
then through the reistance wire with (assumed heat sync)
then into the IVR (metal little box on back of cluster)
then out of IVR to branch feed 5v to three guages.
then through the fuel guage
then through the sender
then to ground.
Basically its a series circuit for this specific feature.
When the reistance of the sender is high (ie-low fuel level), the majority of the 5v is lost across the rheostate in the sender. this leaves very little voltage drop across the guage thus reading low.
When the reistance of the sender is low (ie-full fuel level), less voltage is dropped across the rheostate on the sender. This leaves a large proportion of the voltage drop across the guage thus reading high.
so,,,,,, to more easily understand this, please remember that the higher the resistance of the sender , the more voltage drop it gets and thus leaves very little for the guage to feel thus reading low.
compare the above to a digi sender and you will see that the dash LED indicator will be configured backwards but still opperates on the same premis.
However, by simply opening up the digi sender and relocating the blackwire to the other end of the rheostate, you inherit an buttstuffog sender.
another option would be to flip the guage wiring to compensate but I dont think thats a good "long term" idea because you might sell the car and no one is gonna know what the hell is going on.
perhaps your dealing with this now and you dont even know it:flip:
------------------------------------
Last but not least,, perhaps your sender(s) have bent arms where they are suppose to be 110deg as stated on the midway down bend? if thats the case, your float is not reacting in a calibrated way with relation to fuel level.
and if your looking for the angles of the float rod. I listed them in post #18 I believe.
Just remember to connect the meter to the connector that goes to the tank not the dash. (you may need alligator clips) If there's no change or signal, then you'll be draining the tank anyway to be able to drop it, and get to the wiring to do the rest of your testing.
this certainly does not look like a wanted/for sale thread. I almost continued this up in its original thread.
LOL.
it got taken over.
I didn't even realize it was in the wanted section.
Well it started as a wanting a fuel sending unit, lol It kinda took life and spread out to a help thread.
Alright, well i have potential god news. I drove the car to the gas station and filled her up. It took 9 gallons on top of the 15 or so that were already there. The needle went above full, like it used to.
So i'm going to teeter the thought maybe its working that just on E there are 8-10 gallons remaining. I'm going to drain some of it and see if it goes down. If it goes down, I'll assume its working, an just remember mileage for a few tanks and see what happens.
Alright well its settled. My gas gauge goes from full to empty in 10 gallons. If its full at 22 gallons, the needle will move from full to empty if i remove 10 gallons. That means on "E" I technically still have around 12 gallons in the tank. Who knows why this is like this, but it is. I syphoned out the gas and watched the needle today.
I'm assuming the sending unit is screwed up. I have the digital one laying around, how do you convert that to an buttstuffog one? I would like to do that and try that sending unit, see if I get a better representation of whats in the tank.
Thanks for all the help guys.
Your float arm could be bent upwards to much for some reason.
Was your float spinning freely when you put it back in?
Or it could have been not originally from a cougar at some point?
mabe from a smaller tank car? I don't know what might have been compatible with it in it's day. Capri mabe?
Well its a thunderbird, but the float did spin freely when it was put in. I believe the sending unit is original but it could have been replaced when my grandmother had it. I know it came out of a 21 gallon tank. There is a little difference in the replacement tank, but that shouldn't matter a whole lot.
check out paragraph 2 of post 41 once more. We reply and ask questoins but your not giving resutls back.
Sorry. I started school and haven't gotten a chance to follow all of the electrical testing advice. Hopefully I will let you know next weekend.
No problem, you know where to find us
I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you cassity, just need to find the time to drop the tank and be able to test everything. lol
i didnt say to drop the tank.
unfreaking believable how the information we have floating around here is so valuable.
THe angles posted above are finally years later getting checked.
Thank you daminc!
update to my earlier idea...
i have found it impossible to find a variable resistor in 1/3 of a turn with the resistivity we need off the shelf.
ive looked on digikey , and several other electronics supply houses.
im sure im missing something but its not easy.
UPDATE from foureyedpride.com
a guy there sourced Dorman part number 692-120 in order to obtain the ceramic PCB needed to fix his issue.
this is fyi only,, his ceramic PCB is a reverse negative of what we need for buttstuffog guages from what i can see.
liny / read / pics / details here >
http://www.foureyedpride.com/joom/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=25%3Atech-art&id=105%3A83-86-cfiefi-fuel-sender-repair&Itemid=42
foureyedpride's contributor JACook did a lot of research to repair his CFI 83-86 application.
Update again,
i just ordered this from summit racing
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-290260/overview/
Knowing this one is backwards, yet the price is low, i suspect the rheostat is 100% linear therefore cheaper to make.
in our cars, there is a lot more resistance on the upper and lower 25% of the PCB and you can see this when you notice it takes a while to come off the F mark and it also takes a longer while to go from 1/4 tank to empty.
in this unit i bet its very smooth and drops the fuel level "as you use it".
I will expect i have to simply move the wire from one end of the PCB to the other making it a 90ohm empty, 0 ohm full.
I will expect to need to calibrate the arm so that when the float hits the top of the tank i will "force" the sender to read 8 ohms.
49$ later and give it a few days shipping sometime next week and i will update you all.