My battery bit it saturday night, and after going through the alternator and battery tests, I replaced the battery. Immediately afterwards, the car started running like . Checking under the hood, I noticed the PCV valve was knocked out, so I placed it back in and that still did not take care of the problem. Long story short, I've replaced all the vacuum lines, the PCV valve, the cap, the rotor, and the car is still running rough at idle and low rpms. There is also a 10 to 15 second delay from a stop before the car will accelerate, regardless of how hard I hit the gas. The car is an 88 cougar 3.8L with 138k miles. I know the egr valve is stuck in the closed position, and am ordering one tomorrow, but I don't want to keep throwing parts at the car. Anybody have any ideas?
yes, lots of ideas.
first pull codes explained in my diy link as well as here http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=21453&page=2&highlight=buzzer with a diagram on what to do.
Let us know, sounds really really odd that you have such a long delay in acceleration. Ive never heard of a 15sec delay before, sounds like the eec is shutting down your two injector grounds momentarily and then fires them.
The only things I know of that contribute to that are the TPS , stator, tfi or eec.
If you dont mind, can you elaborate technically on what you mean by "alternator and battery tests".
also, have you had the car jumped recently?
just quote me and edit the quote with your replies in another color, this can help everyone a lot with a new thread and your responses.
as for the egr, there is a test for it as well in my diy link. The EVP sensor is just a variable resistor that can be read by any mechanic or any electronics guy. Go to the electrical tech sticky and get your wiring diagram on the 87evtm page 55 or so. just look for the pages under EEC for the 3.8 L. The 87 is the same as the 88 for this application. For the mechanical part of the egr, just suck on the vac line and if the other end holds your tougue for a long while, like a min or two, then the rubber diaphram is not busted. So, if the EVP sensor reads properly *****WITH AN buttstuffOG METER*** and the diaphram holds suction , then your barking up the wrong tree and its good ole carbon deposits in the intake egr ports that is clogged. If the egr diaphram can not get crank vac / presure then the diapharam can not move. If the diaphram can not move then the EVP sensor can not tell the EEC squat and therefore cant use that voltage to do all the math problems required to fire off injectors properly with relation to emissions / efficency only.
Im gonna bet your root cause is distributor related but pull codes first. If you get no codes, also let us know.
first pull codes explained in my diy link as well as here http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=21453&page=2&highlight=buzzer with a diagram on what to do.
[COLOR="Red"]Just pulled the codes. Immediately after start up it flashed a 3, 4 second pause, dimly flashed a 1, six second pause it flashed a 4, three second pause it flashed a 1, six second pause it flashed a 4, three second pause it flashed a 1. If I'm reading the chart right, system lean fuel control.[/COLOR]
If you dont mind, can you elaborate technically on what you mean by "alternator and battery tests".
[COLOR="Red"]Took the alternator to autozone, they hooked it up to their machine, it tested good. I took the battery to walmart, where I bought it at, and they put it on a load tester. Tested bad in less than 15 minutes.[/COLOR]
also, have you had the car jumped recently?
[COLOR="Red"]Jumped the car to get it home. It did not run poor before the jump, and immediately after the jump I was not paying attention to running conditions, since I was more worried about getting it home.[/COLOR]
as for the egr, there is a test for it as well in my diy link. The EVP sensor is just a variable resistor that can be read by any mechanic or any electronics guy. Go to the electrical tech sticky and get your wiring diagram on the 87evtm page 55 or so. just look for the pages under EEC for the 3.8 L. The 87 is the same as the 88 for this application. For the mechanical part of the egr, just suck on the vac line and if the other end holds your tougue for a long while, like a min or two, then the rubber diaphram is not busted. So, if the EVP sensor reads properly *****WITH AN buttstuffOG METER*** and the diaphram holds suction , then your barking up the wrong tree and its good ole carbon deposits in the intake egr ports that is clogged. If the egr diaphram can not get crank vac / presure then the diapharam can not move. If the diaphram can not move then the EVP sensor can not tell the EEC squat and therefore cant use that voltage to do all the math problems required to fire off injectors properly with relation to emissions / efficency only.
[COLOR="Red"]I found out the EGR valve is stuck, I think in the closed position. I'm replacing it tomorrow, and picking up a voltmeter since mine is MIA.[/COLOR]
Im gonna bet your root cause is distributor related but pull codes first. If you get no codes, also let us know.[/QUOTE]
k
did you have a warm engine when you did the codes?
are you for certain the car was finished giving up codes?
there are two groups with a lenghty pause in between these two groups. The first group is "whats going on now", the second group is "whats been going on up until now, ie- past 40 warm up cycles".
Now its time to check fuel presure. refer to the same link in post 2 and let us know what you see.
I find it odd you have no egr code,,dont you?
I also find it odd you do not have other codes. Usually if you have a lean condition, various other related things down the chain will show up as codes but are not the problem.
I also find the 15sec delay odd.
The engine was warm, I made positive of that. There could be a second group of codes,it was cold and I was impatient, but I will pull again tomorrow after work to double check. Thanks for the help so far.
are you using just a paper clip and the check eng light for codes?
also
there are two tests.,,, one test key on engine off and the other,key on engine running.
redo the KOER
while running there are two groups of codes,, "now" codes and "memory" codes as i like to call them.
then.......
do KOEO
while key on engine off there are two groups of codes,, "now" codes and "memory" codes as i like to call them.
are you sure the egr is stuck closed? a stuck open egr will give very sluggish acceleration..... also, does a 3.8 have a pip plug? i wonder if the timing is staying at base and not adjusting, that would hinder acceleration and make it really run like
I had a set of alligator clips that I was using to run the codes along with the test light. Just got done replacing the EGR, and it's doing the exact same as before. Got to head to work soon, I'll run the KOEO and KOER tests when I get back. I also tested the EVP, or atleast what I thought was the EVP, the sensor attached to the EGR by a 1 inch piece of vacuum line. That is holding pressure.
Just finished pulling codes again. KOER method pulled a 41 again, I waited about 10 minutes and there were no other codes. KOEO method pulled a 34 then a 32, waited about 5 minutes this time and no more codes so I assumed it was finished. This was done after replacing the EGR so I'm going to check out the EVP next.
sometimes i think im wasting my time but its ok.
you did not test the evp. You did test the egr.
here is a direct quote from my diy link to test the evp
EGR test and EVP sensor test
apply vac pres to egr vac line fitting.
if it holds the diaphram for a long time,, the diaphram is good
remove carbon buildup on egr base as well as egr base plate assy for 3.8l engines
EVP test (egr sensor)
wire id...
EEC PIN 26 "VREF" orange/white (parallels off to map)
EEC PIN 27 "EVP SIGNAL" brown/light green
EEC PIN 46 "SIG Return" black/white (parallels off to self test conn)
disconnect vac line
disconnect elec conn
hook ohm meter up to the VREF adn EVP Sig contacts
hook up vac guage or apply vac to egr
ohm meter should start out at about 5.5k ohms.
as vac is increased to max, resistance should bottom out to no less than 100ohms.
key on, engine off
cap off vac fitting on evp sensor
measure for 4 to 6 volts dc between VREF and SIGNAL RETURN (ground)
you can simply unplug the EVP and remove it.
there will be a skinny little rod on the end. as your EGR VAC DIAPHRAM move up and down, it pushes on this rod.
the evp is just like a cieling fan dimmer three wire device. its a variable resistor just like your tps.
Using an buttstuffog meter will tell all you need to know.
Ill bet you have carbon buildup preventing the egr from working correctly but there might also be another issue.
can you trace the egr vac line and check it for cracks as well as other major vac lines around the intake. there are many lines that transition into pvc lines as well.
smog-black and tan lines
red- main crank case vac
green-egr
orange-depends on your engine
Alright, sorry about the delay there. EVP sensor tested good, has varying resistance based on the vacuum placed on it. The plug for the EVP sensor is pulling between 4-6 volts like you mentioned. All vac lines I checked were good, and I already replaced most of them when the problem started. There is a green pvc line running from the EGR to a sensor on the passenger side shock housing facing opposite of the firewall. There is also a red pvc line going to this sensor. Any chance this could be the culprit? I went ahead and tested the throttle position sensor while I was at it, and it tested good also.
I have never trouble shot this part of a 5.0 before but here is what I see going on remotely at this late of an hour.
I see an electrical connector with a red and black wire.
when the electrically operated solenoid gets its control signal ,,ie- either power or ground supplied to it, the solenoid will click.
when the solenoid clicks, a proportioning valve or round do hicky inside the body of the solenoid will move. This will let the red path link up with the green path vac line.
the suction present on the red line (main crank case vac presure) will be able to apply pull vac on the egr through the green path.
the vac on the green line up to the EGR will pull suction on the EGR spring loaded diaphram upwards. This will move the little rod on the EVP sensor. Because the EVP is a variable resistor, its various voltages are going to the land of the EEC where the complicated stuff happens and your engine managment system is supervised.
While having all of the above in mind, please understand that if the RED vac line has no vac, it cant pull suction on the EGR. Getting power to the solenoid does nothing either because the egr isnt moving due to said lack of suction.
I dont have the vac layout on the 5.0 memorized like i do the 3.8 but I seem to remember the red vac line you mention being on the underside of the upper intake which can be gotten to from the rear.(total PITA if you ask me).
If you find you have no vac presure on the red line,,,,and the red vac line indeed does connect directly to the upper intake like i think it does, you just solved your problem.
This is why I tell people to get a can of wd40 and unplug the vac lines off of the electrical mecanical devices that deliver vac presure to sensors. Just unhook those various solenoids and spray wd40 in them. IT will lub up the inside and free up any moving parts that suffers from age or soot/corrosion buildup. The electrical portion of the solenoids is (should be) naturally separated from the vac portion of the device otherwise there would be a constant vac leak.
While you are at it, dont forget to unhook the big line going into the driver fender well. That leads to a nother huge ufo shaped vac diaphram that operates your cruise.
.....back to topic
you may need to remove your IAC like mentioned or at worse case, take off and clean out your intake where these vac lines are connected. Its like a bee hive of fittings in there with many options for clogging up. also remove your PCV and clean it. You might be able to use the existing **FAR END ** connections of all the vac lines on the intake as a path to blow air into. If the intake is clogged at the bee hive of vac fittings on the intake, blowing air might be a permenant solution. You should see instant results at your red line leading up to the EGR solenoid.
I am going to look at the evtm now to verify a couple of things on the egr solenoid.
To be honest with you, many of us never had any issues deleting the egr so I am not really sure what your problem will end up being..... all i can say is a 15sec delay is huge.
ONE OTHER THING,,,, disconnect your little sprout connector on your distributor. It will be a little yellow like pig tail with a shorting plug installed.
Remove that bugger then start your car and drive like that. See if your porblem persists. What you are doing is running your car on "open loop". The EEC will use basic presets in order to manage your engine and performance.
The purpose of this is to verify your EEC is involved with the problem. Not to say the EEC is bad, we just want to eleiminate it for a few moments and see what happens.
((DO NOT unplug / plug the sprout with the engine running or key on ever))
Mine is the 3.8, so no worries about checking into everything 5.0 related. Just disconnected the pigtail, and it ran the same, I could not tell any difference, so hopefully that eliminates the EEC as the problem. I'm on my way to the store to pick up some wd-40, and I'll pull codes again tomorrow morning, see if there have been any changes. Again, thanks for the help you've given so far, I'd be banging my head without it.
This doesn't sound like an EVP to me. Sounds like a PFE (pressure feedback) sensor. Anybody have documentation for 88 3.8?
Code 34 may mean excessive exhaust backpressure.
Tomco lists a EGR PFE for 1993-1988 3.8 T-Bird.
There is a picture there. See if that looks like what you have.
http://www.tomco-inc.com/Catalog/pfe%20sensors.pdf
Is the engine code in your VIN a 4 ? This would be the 8th digit in the number.
Yes, that is what I assumed was the EVP. RockAuto lists that same exact part as the EVP though, at http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?carcode=1140286&parttype=5092&a=FRc1140286k1113896 and I could not find an illustration of it on jcassity's EVTM link, and the only mention of the EVP was on page 69. I also just checked my VECI and the EVP is not mentioned there. I just took some pics so you can tell me if I am just blind or if my engine is some abomination of ford. http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d130/badkarate/cougar/
Edit: Yes, the 8th vin digit is 4.
You definitley have a PFE sensor. RockAuto has it misnamed.
Engine code 4 is 3.8L SEFI engine. You have a more modern engine than all the earlier 3.8L Fox body T-Birds and Cougars.
VECI...Vehicle emissions control information? What book do you have?
Here is the error code info for Taurus with engine code 4. This is from a Chilton's manual.
KOEO(Key on, engine off):
....On demand codes;
........34 Defective PFE sensor
....Continuous memory codes;
........32 EGR valve not seated
........34 Excessive exhaust backpressure
........41 Right HEGO shows lean or no switching
KOER(key on. engine running):
........32 EGR not seated
........34 Excessive exhaust backpressure
........41 Right HEGO shows lean
Did the 88 3.8 come with one HEGO sensor or two?
There is only 1 HEGO sensor that I know of, and I replaced it about a year ago. The VECI placard I am referring to is on the top of the fan shroud. So if I'm getting this right, the KOEO method is pulling a currently defective PFE sensor, while the not seated EGR and backpressure are from the memory. Since I replaced the EGR when I found out it was bad, that should take care of that code. The HEGO is good, since it's detecting that it's running rich. What's throwing me off is why would the PFE test bad on KOEO but not on the KOER?
Every EEC-IV I can think of shows code 41 as a lean and/or not operating properly code.
Test the o2 sensor and wires: Shown is 4 pins......Test is similar for 3 pins
"
The KOEO test has two parts. The first part runs tests on the sensors and reports the results of the tests. These codes are called "on demand" codes. No errors are a code 11. All codes are presented twice.
The second part reads out codes that were stored in the memory of the EEC. While you are driving a "Continuous Self-Test" is running. If it detects a problem it stores a "continuous memory code" in the EEC.
I can't tell from your post which catagory the codes are in. An on demand code 34 means a defective PFE. A memory code 34 means excessive backpressure.
After the on demand codes there is a 6-9 second gap then a single seperator pulse followed by another 6-9 second gap then the memory codes start.
On demand codes and KOER codes are solid failures. Memory codes can be intermittents that happen while you are driving. No telling how old the memory codes are. If you take the jumper off while the memory codes are reading out, it will reset them. Run KOEO again to make sure they are gone. Keep checking to see if they crop-up again.
As for the HEGO code 41, if you only have one sensor it's for the one you have. If you have two it's for the right(passenger side) sensor. The earlier CFI 3.8's have two sensors.
Just because you get a code it doesn't have to mean the sensor is bad. You could be running lean for some reason.
Which is why he should test the sensor and wires ;) Then maybe some simple fuel supply tests....
I think the problem may have just fixed itself, but I'm trying not to get too excited. I went out to pull codes, so I started the car to let it warm up. Died at the first two starts, then tried again and held the gas for a few minutes. I let off the gas and the idle smoothed completely out, but I went on until it was at running temp. Did the KOEO test first, pulled a 34 then an 11. Next to the KOER, it only pulled a 41 this time. I should probably mention that last night, I remembered an old girlfriends POS Suzuki, that in order to reset the computer you left the battery disconnected for 5 minutes. I decided to do this over night, if not for anything else but to see if it would clear the memory codes. I went ahead and tried to test the 02 sensor, but either my volt meter just shiznit itself, or the 02 sensor is bad. Got power from the pigtail that plugs into the sensor, but nothing from the sensor itself, even ohm wise. I'm going to let it cool down, then try it again, see if it does it again or if the problem is actually fixed.
You checked the resistance at the sensor at room temp?
No, I did not, that would probably be why the resistance was reading off then. I'll have to pull it to test it at room temp, since the constant here is about 43 outside. I'll post results when I do it.
Sounds like you are saying you have an "on demand" code 34 and a memory code 11. Is that correct?
Yes that is another way to reset the memory codes. It also resets some other stuff in the computer, so it may idle py for 4-5 minutes until the computer reestablishes it's data.
Can you be specific about which pins you had your meter probes on.
your 3.8 is different from the 87 3.8 and more like the 5.0 with respect to vac solenoids.
I am still going to encourage a simple fuel presure test as well.
this is a huge delay we are talking about ,, should be power / perfromance related as well.
is there a delay in passing gear?
I am so sorry for posting about that EGR EVP sensor. You have no idea how bad i feel on this. You do not have the sensor mounted atop the EGR at all.
However, you do have a green vac line and that vac source needs verified by tracing it back to its source. If it goes to a vac solenoid, everythng i said still applies for the EGR Solenoid.
Three pages of very technical questions and answers, yet no mention of this highly important (to me, at least) part:
Do you mean that when you come to a stop and try to go again, the
engine doesn't rev up at all, or you sit there at 5000rpm waiting for the
car to start moving? HUGE difference in diagnostics, depending on your answer.
A thought/expansion on what Master Blaster is getting at......Have you pulled the exhaust off yet to inspect it or anything like that?
duhh,, I feel stupid. Didnt think of that masterblaster.
The problem is still persisting, but I'm taking that it stopped temporarily as a good sign. I was able to get a hold of a fuel pressure gauge. On the rail, it tested at 33 and went up in response to the throttle. There is no delay in shifting while passing. The transmission is still good, the car only sits there idling pily while I have the peddle pressed 3/4 of the way down. The exhaust is good, there is plenty of pressure coming out the back, but since the beast is 20 years old it wouldn't hurt to go ahead and replace the catalytic converter, and check it out while I'm at it. My toolbox decided to eat my 02 sensor removal socket, so I'll pick one up while at work today. I'm also going to go over all the basics again, check the plugs, the firing order, make sure wires are connected, all the fun stuff. Any chance there is a pdf or anything going over the differences between the 87 3.8 and the 88 3.8? I'm interested to see what all is different.
it has a throttle position sensor, right? could it be intermittently shorting out or something? i had a van that after it warmed up, it just fell flat on it's face and didn't throttle up.... no code even, replaced the tps and it worked like a charm
jumped tooth on the timing chain.
been there, done that, but isn't it intermittent? that would cause it to suck all the time