In order to store the bird for the winter, I need to get the bronco on the road. We solve most of the problems, but one large one remains.
89 Bronco 2, 2.9L 5 speed, auto transfer case.
The starter, when the key is turned, grinds like crazy. Engages enough to start the vehicle, sometimes.
We checked the ring gear on the flywheel, and it looks good all around...no chips or missing teeth. The locating/spacing plate between the motor and bellhousing is intact and straight. The flywheel is torqued correctly. The starter that was in the truck looks like the very ends of the gears were worn. no chips or missing teeth on either starter. the bendixes in both move correctly when bench tested.
what gives? Ive never ran into something like this before..... does anybody have any experiance with the bronco 2 or other vehicles with this drivetrain?
I know but bare with me. Is the battery fully charged? What are the battery cables like? Could they have gotten that rot under the insulation that I've seen all to many times? Either that our you have a bad starter from the sounds of it. I know bench tested right? Well did the bench test put a load on the starter once it was up and running. I've seen it many times when I test one at work new battery, new cables it still won't start but the starter test good. Replace the starter and it starts right up. Yes a bench test can tell you if the starter is working but it doesn't seem to put any load on the starter to see the amount of torque much less tells you if that is enough to turn your motor over like you need it to start it! Oh yeah my experience with at Bronco 2 with a 2.9L is when you have I think it is a 89-90 model with electric auto tranny you never want that thing to go out. Expensive to get replaced.
The battry is new and fully charged. the cables are all good and free of any corrosion. FWIW, the stater in the truck loked brand new...ad the replacement started the 88 B2 it was in just fine. This seems to be a problem of the starter actually engaging the flywheel correctly , not an actual torque problem. .the test showed that the bendix was moving out correctly. if it engaged he flywheel right then theres no doubt it has the power to turn it over...as it does from time to time...it just grinds like crazy.
Oh and yes, its got the auto transfer case in it... manual transmission. And i have e extra auto transfer cases.
So I guess you are saying that the start is kicking out but just not enough to fully in gauge the flywheel. I do see a different part number for the 2.9 than a 5.0,2.3 ,or the 3.8 so maybe it has a longer throw or locates the Drive closer to the flywheel. Hard to say without being there and seeing it in person. And my lands it has got to be cold out there! I feel your pain and it sucks. Do they use salt up there or that alternative stuff? If its salts hope it doesn't snow or anything until you get the bird put up. Hate to see that subjected to SALT!
sounds just like my ranger did. it ended up being the ground cale to the engine block.
they use salt.....ugh. and way too much of it.
so shame, a bad bround made it actually GRIND when the key was turned? I mean ths grinds like im missing teeth on the ring gear... and catches just enough to spin the motor quick. but it is definitely going to damage something if i try to keep starting it like this.
Perhaps the starter engages,but it's still not as strong as it should be.
yep. the truck was a stick so sometimes when it wouldnt start i could at least pop it but the starter had become unreliable untill it did what you describe most of the time....i assume my starter wasnt getting the power required to keep it engagued to the flywheel. found the cable after replaceing both the battery and starter. flywheel was mint. might be something to look at anyway, but my problem sounded exactly as you describe.
That is very interesting. The cable looks okay, but I guess it could have issues. Are you talking about the actual cable that goes from the starter up top? Or are you speaking of the actual block to firewall ground?
I just heard the same thing from one of my co-workers....the starter does not ge enough voltage, so it kicks out, but doesn't stay all the way out. Is that accurate?
Is the noise actually coming from the starter? and not the grindy clickey noise from the soleniod?
Just a thought.
Definitely from the starter.
Oh, and this is loud enough to make my buddies dog jump sideways, and he's a seasoned hunting hound. (IE not gun-shy) :)
that was my issue. it was the ground cable leading to the block from the bat.
ever heard it when someone tries to start a car when its allready running, it sounded sort of like that.
EXACTLY.
I hear that this causes the bendix to jump out like it should but it doesn't have enough power to keep it out there. Therefore, it doesnt engage fully!
Thanks, I'm checking htis tonight!
Okay, no ground repair yet, but some readings to share:
Battry voltage is 11.5 volts
When cranked, the voltage at the starter side of the solenoid is 6.5 volts, and slowly climbs to 8 or so peak as the key is held down.
This voltage was the same at the starter itself and the bellhousing as a ground
My theory is that the starter has enough voltage to kick the bendix out, turn the gear, but not enough to keep the bendix extended all teh way, causing improper engagement on teh flywheeel.
The power cable to the starter is great, no problems there. So what next?
I think mabey the battery does not have enough ccas, or the ground is bad.
Your starter may just be getting weak or the solenoid on the starter is getting worn out.
No solenoid on the starter, its on the Fender like the Thunderbirds are. I'm leaning twards a solenoid, even though I've never seen one fail like this.
When we gave the starter direct power from the battery, it sounded a bit stronger. Unfortunately, there is no real way to do that while the starter is in the car, since the starter is tucked in quite a bit.
Measure the voltage between the negative battery post and the engine block while cranking. See if that is where the rest of your "missing" voltage is. That would indicate that the battery cable is loose where it bolts to the block.
11.5 volts is a little low. A fully charged battery should be 12.5 volts.
What do you read across the battery while cranking?
Yeah 11.5 volts is garbage. Hell closer to 13 is honestly more accurate even. Charging voltage is something like 14 and change I believe.
Accross the battery while cranking was about .2 volt drop. The reading between the negative battery post and the starter side of the solenoid while cranking was 6.5 V, and would creep up to about 8 if i held the key.
I'll have to try the block to negative post while cranking thing.
bad bendix in the starter?
the one i had in the bird had chunks floating around in it and it sounded like that somtimes.
First I would look at does the starter actually fit.. not all fords have the same starter mounting position, size, etc.
You say the starter came from a
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']88 B2[/font]
And went into a
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']89 Bronco 2, 2.9L 5 speed, auto transfer case[/font]
Transfer case is behind the tranny correct? So that’s irrelevant. However 5 speed to Auto may not work. In my 70 torino I had with a 4speed the starter from an V8 automatic set up did not fit.
The close years 88-89 is promising.. but was the 88 an Auto tranny bronco?
Been a while since I looked at or tore apart a ford starter but from what I recall the bendix is kind of a bogus little gear that doesn’t do much, as long as they spin freely they will work. Quite similar to a throwout bearing on a clutch. What moves it out is a electro magnet on the side of the starter (under that dome shaped cover) you slap the juice to it and it sucks the arm (equivalent to a clutch fork) down engaging the bendix into the flywheel. If this magnet isn’t doing it’s thing then the bendix is not engaging the flywheel. Since the starter was working in the 88 I assume the magnet is good and the wiring inside the starter activating it is good,,, did the starter sit around for a while between coming out of the 88 and going into the 89? Is it corroded and not getting good enough contact to hold the benix engaged?
edit: On the Torino, I could swap the starters, but I needed to retain the nose cone of the starter from the Manual Transmission. Two long bolts that come from the back of the starter all the way through.. pull the nose off and swap them. Then the auto starter would work just fine. It’s the nose that aligns everything
Manual and Auto starters are the exact same parts for these trucks, I verified that with my own paper and online catalogs as well as my motorcraft dealer. I verified the PN off of the Old motorcraft starter I have, and it is correct for the truck. The 88 was a manual tranny truck just like this one is. I also talked to the origonal owner last night, the truck has NEVER been apart in that area..no clutch no nothing. He said that it was driving around fine, and the problem slowly started until he could not start it without a push. He swears up and down that it had to be the flywheel, but I've already verified that it is good, at least ring gear side.
The bendix on this starter DOES kick out. We took the starter out, and grounded it on the frame. I kicked the key over, and it kicks out and spins. If you hold the key, it stays steady, and it doesnt drop off like a bad armature would cause it to. I also pulled the inspection cover off of the starter and cleaned every contact with emery paper. No improvement.
Just a note, when we bench tested the starter off of the battery, (with jumper cables from the battery in the truck) it sounded a bit stronger than if we used the existing cable (verified good from the solenoid) and grounded it against the frame.
The fact that the measured voltage from the negative battery post to the starter solenoid (the starter cable lug) was 6.5 volts bothers me. It should not have been much less than battery voltage, yet it was almost 5 volts lower.....this makes me think that there is a hell of a lot of resistance somewhere.
Still sounding like a ground issue. If anything crab a couple extra battery cables and make more grounds. I know when I added more grounds to my turbo coupe it started just a bit quicker. Might try that because of the way you test turned out.
If you have good voltage to the battery side of the solenoid(positive cable is good) and low voltage on the starter motor side it has to be a bad solenoid.
Pull the domed cover on the starter and check the clearance of the contact that opens, which is what actually starts the motor to run(It's suppose to engage then run)... If the air gap is too wide, bend contact till it has approx .050 clearance with drive manually extended(push on lever to extend drive)... Seen a couple of starters with this problem...
True. This could mean that the solenoid is bad (IE high resistance) OR it could mean that the starter is only able to grab the 6.5 volts because the ground is bad. If there is resistance, the amperage should go up, and the voltage should drop........
I'm such an electronics NEWB:mullet:
We had the inspection cover off, and it appears that the contact is right in the clearances you specify. That was one of the first thing we checked. We also cleaned all the contacts there with some electrical contact cleaner and emery paper.
Like said add a ground with jumper cables, also 11.5v across the battery is to low.to eliminate the selenoid take the ground off the battery,bolt the two battery cables from the selenoid together and see what happens when you touch the ground back on the battery.you can leave the key off for this so it won't start, if cranks you found your problem.
Huh! I don't know how to respond to that except to say that's wrong. Since you are referencing the meter to the negative battery post, the ground circuit between the battery and the starter is out of the picture for the measurement you are making.
Resistance is the resistance to current flow. Amperage is the amount of current flow. That's as far as I am going to go into DC electricity 101.
Like I said, Newb :)
So it was not the ground wire. We replaced the ground and the solenoid, and it still grinds. We disassembled both starters.....the newer one and the older one look like they got awfully hot inside. The new one would barely spin...the older one would spin and kick out, but it didnt sound quite right. We tried using parts from both to make one good starter, but that one did not work either. While the brushes on the old one were shot, the windings on both looked VERY suspect.
So here is my theory, and please let me know if it is right.
The ground WAS horrible. because of that, it caused the starter to heat up ( the newer one) and it killed it. The older one may not have been good from the word go. Does that sound plausible? It looked as if the ground wire got pretty hot at some point....Not sure why, but it was definitely shot.
that sounds about right to me anyway.
... sounds reasonable as anything i can think of. can't never have too good a ground. :)
That ground was something else...green corrosion all over near where the fuel pump ground connects to it ( what a stupid freaking design!) and bolts to the frame. It also appeared that that cable had somehow gotten hot at some point.... right near the corrosion.
SO... could a bad battery to engine ground cause the starter to heat up, shortening its life and killing it? I'm trying a new starter (no reman) on the truck on Saturday.
i would consider a new bat. depending on how it tests. id go ahead and get a new starter along with a new ground cable. clean it all up and hopefully you would be good to go.
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductList.aspx?parttype=123&ptset=A&searchfor=Starter Read about the Palladium starter on this page. It seems the resistance can be pretty touchy for this vehicle. On a side note, I had a 1987 Bronco II 2.9 and in less than 150,000 miles, it had 3 engines, and 2 trannies installed, and a new ECM, and then the wiring caught on fire up by the solenoid on the pass. fender and firewall. I put alot of money into that lemon, and then put a 1966 bronco driveline under it before selling it. Moral is: Expect problems, lol.
Yes a bad ground will cause the headaches you have.
It's been known 1 out 3 rebuilds are bad. Thats why there selling new parts cheaper than rebuilds.
HAvi...
Yeah I saw that as well. I'm wondering if a lot of these rebuilds are that sensitive. Regardless, if the core problem was resistance in the wires, I now know that all the cables are correct. I replaced them all. So the next step is the starter. It doesn't surprise me that you had electrical problems there. its a real stupid design. They also changed the head design in 89, making the heads less succeptable to cracking that the early 2.9s were known for. When the truck is running, its got more balls than my buddie's freshly rebuilt 4.0 exploder :shrug: The good thing is that this engine seems to push start ultra easy. W'eve had to do that a lot lately! LOL
I ahve a couple of taillight grounds to fix and a bit of cleaning to do (along with fluid changes) but is the gd'n thing would start on its own, I'd be golden. I 'm probly going to change out the shocks before teh snow hits too bad too, just in case. even though it looks nice, its still just a winter beater.
Shame: The battery tested out okay, it was just a bit low from sitting so long. The alternator puts out the right voltage too, so that is a relief.
Kits, It really depends on the rebuild. The liftime ones can be okay for starters, but I'd never go with anything less. Alternators are brand new or junk IMHO.
IT RUNS!!!!!
So after replacing all the cables, we put a new starter in it.
It starts and runs without any grinding now!
Pics in the User Rides Section to come soon!:burnout:
So you trough some parts at it, did you know what one cured it?