As you may know I just recently purchased a 1988 cougar xr-7. The car has been stored in a garage on and off for the past 10-15 years. This car is my daily driver and I've noticed something about it. When I drive it, it seems to hesitate when I push on the gas so in order to make her go I push on the gas harder which is taking its toll on my gas tank! Also when I first start her up she revs up real nice but then almost stalls but revs up then almost stalls again for a couple tries then she either stalls completely or is fine. When you can here this you can also see it happen on my rpm speedometer it goes up to two then back down to a half then up and down. My dad told me that the fuel something needed to be cleaned so we bought some seafoam and put it straight in the gas tank. It was fine for a day or so and now its starting to hesitate again. I had my boyfriends step dad who is a mechanic take a look. He listened and decided my car may be fuel hungry. He also said that since my car has been stored on and off for the past 10 years that contaminents may be at the bottom of my gas tank and now that im putting gas in it is mixing it up. Today I bought a new fuel filter for my car and he is installing it tonight. Does anyone else have this problem or does anyone have any other suggestions? Your comments are appreciated!
They may be on the right track...but in my experience with these cars, it's probably something electrical. Does your dad (or anyone else) have a code scanner, per chance? That's about the best way to figure out what's going on with all of your sensors.
If I were a betting man, I'd say the throttle position sensor (TPS) is shot. Could also be related to the EGR, EVP, O2 sensors, cannister purge solenoid, maybe even the MAP sensor. But without the codes being read it's a shoot. You could be throwing good money after bad for a looooooong time unless you know for sure what the computer is telling you.
I tend to agree with Eric, but if I were also a betting man, I may seriously consider the TFI-IV ignition module. The pattern, you Samantha, described with regard to your tach reminds me of one of the first problems I had with my 88 XR7.
Where I am going with this is, a learning curve for me, was learning how to talk to the computer. When I finally figured out that I needed a code reader (lol, long before I found out about jcassity's DIY), the error code pointed me in the direction of the TFI.
The point is, Eric's right when he says:
So before you go for the mechanics of the problem, be sure to consult the electronics. LOL.
Let us know how it turns out! :)
Check the codes. Here's a how to plus some ways to check out what's causing the idle surge: http://sbftech.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=07850f72924859532d4a3693500ca6e4&topic=7470.0
I experienceds a similar symptom. It could be the gas or gas station. Try switching brands of gasoline, e.g. if you normally run Exxon, try BP. My suggestion would be a couple of tanks of Shell or Phillips if either is available in your area.
Also, think about replacing the fuel filter. It's probably due, regardless of what else might be wrong.
Those are other options, but my first move would be to check codes as mentioned previously.
X2 could also be a fuel pump issue if you have access to someone with a gauge I would check it under load
I replaced the fuel filter today which was really dirty! Let the car sit for a while then started her up and its still hesitating. So tomorrow I'm going to call Firehawk (my dad knows the one guy) and see how much its gunna cost to get the car scanned. And once I find out what's wrong ill have his step dad fix it instead of having to pay a whole bunch of money!
IAC valve is my first thought. As Eric mentioned, you may have a "dead spot" on your TPS.
You may consider running Seafoam into the vacuum system on the engine rather than pouring it into the fuel tank. This helps to "blow out the cobwebs."
Refer to the instructions on the can for more information.
I didn't read anywhere if the engine light came on. If its throwing a code should light it, but maybe not.
nope no engine light. only when it stalls out.
Buy a can of the Seafoam in the spray can and spray out the sensors on the TB. My car did the same thing when I go it and started to do it again about a month ago. Sprayed them out a few time and Im back to wasting gas cause i want to not cause I have to.
Haha I love wasting gas ! But I filled her up less than a week ago like over filled her and now I'm almost out of gas and I basically just drive to work which isnt too far and home and to my boyfriends its just annoying.
On tuesday my dads mechanic is going to scan my codes and hopefully it will tell him what the problem is!
I'll update everyone if I find out the problem.
I have had the same problem in mine as well. I have been considering a tune up and have yet to have it done. Last time I drove it, it realy got on my nerves as well. If I have it tuned up, I'll let you know if that helps any.
Clean the iac motor,replace the plugs and wires,remove and decarbon the egr,set the tps and all should be fine.
Your surge at idle is more than likely related to the iac being dirty but could be the tps,not likley though.
Not a fuel pump,fuel or tank issue at all.
If it where a lack of fuel from the pump it would be losing power when accelerating not surging at idle(i've had a few pumps go on me and none surged at idle(they ran the best at idle as little fuel was required).
The fuel pump has a sock on it that will prevent from going into the fuel system, there would have to be a swamp in your tank for it to be plugged and again you would have no power when you step on the loud pedal.
As for the tfi module,that will not cause a surge or lack of power it will cause an intermitten instant dye-out condition with a hard long crank restart or no start at all so it's not that.
Don't bother taking it to a mechanic just do the tune up,it needs it anyways.
you only need a paper clip to pull codes.
I too am worried about old gas and "shelack" on the interior of the fuel lines or even the injectors. You need to find out from the prevous owner precisely how often the car was ran.
There are tiny little tear drop filter screens in the top of each injector which can be replaces. I suggest you do this cause i would. The reason i would do it now is because someone decided seafoam was a good idea. the seafoam might have loosened things up and everything that broke away is caught on the tops of the injectors. Good call on the seafoam as it turns a bad thing into an opportunity.
FIRST
MAKE SURE THE ENGINE IS HOT BEFORE PULLING CODES.
1-with key off , install paper clip
2-turn key forward or start your car. Either way codes will begin now.
-----a series of quick flashes will occure which are impossible to catch followed by a pause. then codes start dumping out. This is your computer looking out into the components and logging in information as wel as counting the cylinders. These are called Fast Codes,,,,,,,ignore this part.
-----there are two groups of codes ,, codes your car has now and ocdes that are in memeory. when the "now" codes are done dumping out, there will be a long pause. suddenly your memory codes will start to be displayed.
-----have paper and pen in hand
3-watch codes displayed by check engine light , count them and jot down the numbers.
a second part to code pulling is to include a 1.00 radio shack 12v buzzer so you can hear the codes.
using just a paperclip will activate your check engine light and will strobe the codes. Using a buzzer to hear allows you to listen while you write and you dont have to take your eyes off the paper while you are looking at a flashing check engine light, glancing down wondering if you missed a strobe or not.
SECOND
MEASURE TPS VOLTAGE
-with key on only, prob the tps green wire with a stick pin.
-Measure your green wire TPS voltage to ground and insure is is about .6 to .9 volts dc.
-if voltage is high, it ususally leads to a high idle situation. the mounting holes of the tps can be filed with a round chainsaw file so the holes are "egged" or oval. remount the tps and barely snug the screws. remeasure your tps voltage, rotate tps slightly to dial in your .6 to .9vdc reading by means of your new modified tps work.
-using a cheap buttstuffog meter (with a needle), sloooooowly open the trottle linkage while watching the voltage increase. if there is a momentary miss or jump in the meter needle, there is an open spot in the tps and it needs replaced.
THIRD
CHECK your fuel presure with car running. Should be about 35 or so psi, quickly disconnect the vac line on the fpr and cover the end with your finger- presure should jump to about 40 or so psi.
-hook your fuel pres tester up and tape the guage to your windshield. reconnect your vac line to the FPR. While driving, observe the presure while your transmission cycles through the gears. Any drop into the 20's will warrent a fuel pump in my opinion. This is a true load test of your engine while the problem occures.
FOURTH
Get a couple cans of carb cleaner/brake cleaner.
Clean out the IAC and the EGR ports.
FIFTH
Remove the Air Charge Temp Sensor and clean off the little "dingle berry" on the end of the sensor.
It should read abotu 50kohms per my diy link bone cold. As the temp increases, the resistance decreases.
So... you can hook your meter up to the pins on the sensor and set your meter to the proper range. Ovserve it is about 50kohms. Now use a lighter to heat up the little dingle berry by sweeping the flame near the element. the resistance should start to drop and as it cools down, it will increase.
Sixth
Waste a whole can of wd-40 on various vacuum sensors. Unhook hoses or solenoids and spray wd down in them. THis would include the vac hose that goes down to your cruise control (large hose going into the driver fender well up near the fire wall. Lubricating the vac sys will help the plastic / rubber parts in the various sensors move more free. Also spray into the EGR VAC fitting.
SEVENTH
Wait unitl night time. Check to make sure any easy to get to spark plug is getting nice bluish/white spark. If not, replace the TFI or the hull effect/stater assmebly.
enough for now i suppose.:D
With a stock cam those 2 numbers will be further apart. If they were that close together I would start looking for a rather large vacuum leak.
Vac. line disconnected ~40 PSI (35-45 PSI is within spec according to Ford)
With the line connected -- generally 10-12 PSI less with the stock cam and @ idle RPM....
Anything below what you got @ idle with the line connected will be a problem......At WOT you should see the same value as with the line disconnected at idle or VERY CLOSE to it. Within 2 PSI.
Or you can buy a vacuum guage and not make a mess.
A nice tutorial on vacuum diagnostics here: http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,3020.0.html
I noticed you used some seafoam good stuff but have you tried using it to clean you the VAC system. Pull a vac line and spray it in the line and let is sit for a few min. Then start it up and it will smoke but that is all the nasties being burn up. Then you could also look over http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/ on how to test those sensors. They give and excellent break down on each sensor and how to test it.
not sure what the purpose of the quotes were but ignore what i said.
i said with your vac line disconn =40 or so psi
> the correction was "~40 PSI (35-45 PSI "
I said with your vac line connected=35 or so psi
> the correction was "10-12 PSI less than disconnected"
I said with the guage taped to the windshield driving=Any drop into the 20's is bad. Meaning 40-45psi minus 10-15 psi.
> the correction was trival but it basically said the same thing i did. Not many people have actually done the pres guage to the windshield test. The needle will cycle up and down in relation to the load. At wide open throttle, as the rpms are high, the pres will naturally be a little low. As the speed and transmission gains in the gear you are in, the presure will come back up to as specified with the correction > "within 2psi" of what presure you had with the line disconnected. If you read the correction,, a bad reading would be in the 20's on presure. Reading fuel presure while under a load is not linear on the guage. It is not a simple number and thats why anything in the 20's will reduce power cause the fuel flow is low compared to the demand or engine consumption at higher rpms.
I said to waste a can of wd40 to lubricate the internal moving parts of the vac piece parts. (due to sitting so long)
> the correction was to not make a mess. Buy a vac guage instead. Im not really sure how just the simple purchase of a vac guage will lubricate the internals of the vac system. Using the vac guage still will not add any lubricant.
Im not sure what all was achieved by the quotes and then say the same thing i did sending the message that i passed out bad information.
Im just confussed on what was wrong wth the structure of the message keeping it fairly simple and to the point.
For the fuel pressure it was an elaboration on what you said, expanding on it and correcting the #'s you stated. FWIW a pressure drop in the 20's is bad, but if idle pressure without vacuum is 45 and observed pressure under load @ WOT is 35 there is an issue as well....
Someone could misconstrue what you said/typed. Your expansion on it in the post above was much better.
The Vacuum/WD-40.....
Why make mess if you don't have to? Better to check to see if the person has a vacuum problem and to show them how to check for it and diagnose the situation IMHO. If a vacuum hose needs to "lubricated", it most likely needs replacement FWIW. Anybody who owns one of these cars with the desire to keep it and do a good amount of the repairs/maintenance themselves SHOULD have a vacuum guage as well as some other essential tools (something to read codes with, for example).
In the 11 years I've owned my car I've never had to "waste a whole can" of WD....
In fact, I've run a cleaner/solvent through the vacuum tree only ONCE.
[SIZE="5"]
Nobody's perfect and it wasn't an attack on you. I honestly don't see why you are defensive over it...[/SIZE]
ok,, gotcha,,
now i understand, you were just fine tuning the details.
Ok I went to the mechanic today and of course my car hesitated the whole way there but it did NOT hesistate when they drove it. He didn't find anything really wrong with it. But he DID clean the idle air control motor and the throttle body which was VERY dirty. Now i'm going to wait and see if it does it again
:(
with no check engine light coming on,, id bet money its fuel delivery related.
Id also bet money its the fuel injector screens.
If its just a hesitation then clears up, sounds more like a vac problem, where i don't know.
Since no light and no codes.
Or DAD did something to stop her from goin fast.
what motor dose it have no one has asked that yet that i can see.
Guessing a 5.0 if it's an XR7
yeah its a 5.0. and no dad didnt do anything that car goes fast when you step on it believe me!
my car did it when i got it but i dont rember what i did to stop it lol and i dont know shiznit about the xr7s lol well cougars at all too
well im jus hoping it isnt anything to major!
ya they are bad on gas even if u put around. my car did the same thing when my dad gave it to me after it sat for 5 years stright. try puting some fuel cleaner in it use lucas one 100% actoen but with the actoen only use 3oz for 10gal. do not go over 3oz tho.
So I was driving today and it hasnt hesitated at all thanks for all the help guys!
My car still isn't fixed so i'm taking it backto the mechanic.
now its starting to lunge forward when im at a full stop.
any ideas?
Is it only acting up when it's real cold out?
nope even after i've been driving it for a while and its warmed up.
I bet it's the IAC.....
Yeah I'll second that. I'd say vacuum leak too but for it to wind up high enough to overcome the brakes like that it would have to be pretty major, wonder if that's even possible from any of the lines.
If it's one of the larger vacuum lines, yes.
Yeah I had thought perhaps the 1/2" one going to the MAP sensor. Interesting.
if the idle is too low, it will do that. I know it might seem that the idle "sounds good" but being too low in P or N is a whole lot different than being too low in drive. A lurching or lunging forward symptom results from this.
In drive, the idle naturally drops a little so if your N idle speed is already too low, it stands to reason when you let off the gas and hit the brake the engine will try to recover.
Also, a binding smog pump might be pulling down engine power when the brake is depressed , which inturn forces the computer to rev up a little to recover from a boarder line stall.
You never did pull the codes so we will never know. Like anyone else who has problems like this , the codes are the place to start even with no check engine light.
Known cause of hunting & surging idle
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2002/01/tenpin/index.shtml
I do not know that it is a cause of hesitation, but I guess it might
ok well when i have it in mix (defroster) and im at a complete stop that is what is causing me to lunge forward . and the hesitating he thinks that the tranny is very weak so i might have to get that thing replaced .
Does your A/C work? I'm thinking the lunging forward at a stop might be the idle bumping up for the A/C compressor when it's on defrost. It wouldn't be much of a bump, but you can feel it sometimes.
I drove a rental Escort once that was slow to downshift. When you were almost stopped it would finally shift to 1st gear. When it did, all of a sudden you were not on the brakes hard enough.
I had a 2.3 Stang with a bad TPS sensor that caused hesitation... It never set a code, but decreased voltage to the EEC on part throttle... Took a buttstuffogue volt meter, monitoring the voltage from zero to part throttle to find that one...
If your problem is only at part throttle, it's probably sensor related issue(was it ever scanned???) It's very possible to have a TPS or IAC problem with a code and never turn on the CEL(check engine lamp)... If it happens only at heavy throttle, I'd be more inclined to think it was a fuel system issue... If it's interminent and the tach makes sudden wild changes in it's readings(while you are driving only), problem is iginition related... Anything that causes engine to change speed will be indicated while it's running out of gear...
The
PROPER way to check a TPS.....throughout the entire range of movement. It's not uncommon for them to develop "dead spots" as Tom describes.
Again run codes before you put out $$$$$ for a trans and the problem isn't solved. My car doesn't light up the Check Engine Light but it always throws codes for the Thermactor System (removed) and the fuel pump monitor (I didn't run the wire when I did the MAF conversion).
Just wondering but have you adjusted the TV cable on the trans? Here is how to do it: http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/tv-ajust/index.shtml
Any update?
Run codes yet?