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in 2001, a neighbor (jay) and his significant other (marie) had a house fire which leaves them with no where to go but an insurance claim as little as it was.  They are not even close to middle income but a social security dependant couple with very little by way of assets. 
I happen to know the fire was planned and it happened without a hitch, no investigation as this county doesnt have resources for that stuff being a sole volunteer county of fire fighters.

Skip forward a while and marie moves in with her daughter for a while.

I offer jay the option to use a tract of land i own near by to pull his camper up on and settle in until he gets things order.  Jay moves on over, and parks the camper.  He puts a porch on the camper entrance.  Later he closes that porch in and adds another porch.  about a year later, marie moves in with jay.  They were not being a problem or anything by being there so since i purchased a saw mill, I told jay , he had a place to live till the day he died as long as i could use the tractor for various things.  I kept this agreement between jay and I and no one else knew I owned the land.  All in all it appeared that jay was the owner perse just so as to keep his pride i guess

I ususally keep the snow off myself and my neighbors driveways.  My driveway is 1690 feet long.  The tractor was used over the next few years and was great for getting at my logs for cutting lumber.  A lot of lumber went to Jay as well since he helped cut and was adding on to his "house" again.

Over time, the camper has now been added on to until it is surrounded by various rooms which makes it the kitchen now as well as the primary electrical distribution source.  Yes, he also had the power company add 100A service.  Still not water or septic,,, hauling water from my house and the outhouse is the toilet for now.

Jay , Marie and I usually got a long but Jay drinks a lot and this lead to many issues and him running his mouth and g me off.  He did things over time that just rubbed me the wrong way.  My wife always said "i dont like that man" but finally it sunk in what she meant.  I concluded Jay is a user or a scammer so to speak.  I always cut him slack cause for the most part we got along and the generation gap between him and I was vast to say the least.  Jay is in his late 60's as well as marie.

Time marches on and I decide to take off for Iraq in 2005 only to come home mid 2006 to find the tractor gone.  Jay had done things that urked my wife while i was gone and upon my return, I asked about the tractor.  Jay said it threw a rod and was in for repair.  Long story short, he sold it.

during the first week of sept last month, jay and marie spit up but during but during this past summer, Marie's son Jimmy moved in.  Jimmw was telling me all about what his plans are for "moms place" and i just let it go.  I did finally tell his mother what the scoop was.  They came up to my house and had coffee and asked if they could live there.  Marie being elderly so to speak with many visits to the hospital and such, and , with no running water to this day or sanitary toiletry, I told her its not a good idea.  Jimmy being in his early 40's wasnt so convinced.  I asked how he planned to buy all the materials for his plans.  Long story short, Jimmy is ,,quote/unquote "holding out for his disability".  Jimmy has always been a crooked type person since i met him years ago.

I told Marie and Jimmy on 3 sept 08 that I had no agreement with them and I cant keep doing this,, its over.  I asked them to make a small goal that by halloween or before, a plan be in place that allowed the to be moving out or be done doing so.  They agreed. 

I took off for Indiana that next day and returned a couple weeks later.  No progress on the move.  I found marie a couple places for rent to which nothing suited her in price.  I even went as far as to get her assistance since she is elderly and about to become homeless so the story goes as i explained to to FMRS, DHHR and as well, Adult Protective Services.  I filed a referal with adult protective services to have her interviewed since she has a growing medical history and requires oxegen at nght.

I take off to Arizona and return last week to find no progress has been made on the move.  I call marie and its like she is playing hard ball with me.  Her son isnt doing any kind of packing either. 

I go to the court house yesterday to file a wrongful occupation suit aganst them.  It took 100$ to get this done and to my regret, they will be served to vacate the property next week and to appear in court on thurs of next week.

I cant keep doing this, but now that so much time has been wasted, moving could have been done when the weather was nice.  Now its getting cold and holidays right around the corner, I can only come out looking likd scrooge on this one.

I am thinking of an option to thier favor though,,
If the deputy is unable to serve the papers, the case will be held up and I will probably let them finish out the winter down there just so they have a roof over thier heads.  If i stick to my guns, it will be an ugly situaiton and the rurmor mill in a small town will not favor me in the lest on how I put a lil ole lady out on the street with no were to go in the dead middle of winter.

If you have ever met one of those scammer types who is also smart,, that would be Jimmy.  I am fearful that it will finally occure to him that he can get hurt on my property and sue me.  This one issue makes me think that its do or die for them to be gone next week.

shesh,, the drama i get myself into just for giving all i can give only to be shiznit on later.

Any thoughts?

What are you doing providing welfare? That's the government's job.

I'm sorry but I think you're being too soft hearted. AA would call you an enabler..... I also have very little tolerance for mooches, it's one thing to help someone through a bad patch but when it drags on and on and starts getting into generational inheritance? F___ no. Maybe I'm just a hard azz.

I'd say serve them and get them off your property. 

Then again, I'm not that nice of a person when someone is taking advantage of me.

You did more than the right thing  for years, He didnt hold up on his end. Plus they got themselves into this mess from what Im understanding so what where their plans before you offer the land? I wouldnt beat yourself up about it, just make it know what is going on because you know they will once they are out. Only they will forget the good you did when they talk about it.

History likes to repeat itself. Sometimes it requires some help... :evilgrin:

get them out. thats what happned when you make it too easy. my sister had a similar problem with a relative. they dont own the property and dont pay you rent. shouldnt be all that hard to have them removed. i wouldnt let it go on much longer though. nice guys finnish last. ive learned this all my life.

I was thinking this myself. One planned fire deserves another :mullet: (for legal reasons, I must point out that I'm kidding)

Amen! I think its guys in general though LOL. Sometimes we can come in 2nd though

Serve the papers.....You've done enough for them as it is....



We should call that the Mason law...

Technically speaking if there isnt a rental agreement between you all it would seem that they are trespassing. Call the police and have them removed. As for the small town rumor mill, I would imagine there isnt a very long line of folks signing up to have them squat on their property so I wouldn't let it bother me. You have done more than your fair share to try to help. I would be a bit concerned about the random fire or trip and fall accident that they seem capable of. I serve legal papers on stuff like this all the time and I learned a long time ago that you cant let your personal feelings get in the middle of right and wrong.

I'm in favour of kicking them off. I have no respect for people who put themselves in that situation. This isn't your baggage to carry. To let them stay there for all these years is enough. Besides you've told them a while ago to move, they're the ones pushing the time towards Christmas.

Think about it, you are being nice trying to let them stay until Christmas is over, but then again you're fearful of him inflicting something and then suing you. That fear alone would be enough for me to get them the hell out of there.

 
I'm with him on this one.

Rental agreement or not, they already had an oral agreement to set up residence so one must go through the standard local eviction protocol.

On the other hand, I'm not really sure what you do with their 'house' once they're gone.

papers were served today, they filed for a continuance.

Apparnetly Marie has surgury on 30oct which is the original court date.

now its set for 3nov.

Im not sure how much progress they will get out of an elderly woman fresh out of surgury reporting to court the following monday.

"They" didnt. Jay did and from the sound of it is long gone. technicality im sure but a fact none the less.
 
reguardless, good luck with this one, i hope it works out well. at least your not in massachesettes, she would have already sued you for harrassment or some sh@. this state...ahem, commonwealth is a joke.

Doesn't matter. Agreement was made to occupy a residence on his property, you can't treat them as trespassers until the eviction process is completed.

its not even a leagal residance....

Let them have it...they've not only taken advantage of you but the system by purposely burning their house and by their son "holding out for disability".  Sorry for being so brash by saying this but they really sound like genuine grade A white trash!

No good deed goes unpunished.... I understand you don't want to turn them out, but I think you are onto something regarding the "slip and sue" concern. They sound like the kind of people who could make life very miserable for you. Serving the eviction papers is the right thing to do. Good luck!!

Boot'em before they own your house

I was told by the magistrate that they are only allowed to file a continuance once.

since marie has surgury ,, and if she is not able to partite in the court hearing,, what are the odds they can drag this out further?,,

Yes, ,, i agree to the white trash part.


I have a prediction,, and lets see how good my ESP is.


1- I am told via mail or by phone that marrie is not able to make it due to uncontrollable cirspoogestances relating to surgury.  The one waiver that the court may honor as justification to extend this to a future date unkown to me at this time.

2- we finally end up in court sometime in 2009

3- the judge goes against my wishes and gives them 90 days to vacate

4- I tell the judge i can not live with this and it is against my demands on the motion.

5- the judge basically says i have nothing to say about it
    i get pissed
    I tell the judge that i will start moving thier stuff to the garbage that day.
      I tell the judge that I do not feel safe with the numberious NEC vioulations with the electrical down there and that I am going to have the power removed from my property

6-judge tells me i am in contempt

7-I tell judge he is in comtempt of my constituional rights and whatever else i can think of

8-judge issues a restraining order against me to not come within a certain amount of feet from them.

9-judge includes that to be my own property which i can not come on

10-I violate the judges wishes by going on my own land to cut some fire wood which lands on the little shack they have built

11-I get hauled off to jail for the day until i get bailed out

12-I face time in prison and i make the news,,, but the story will be so bassakwards it will be amazing to read by anyone here who knew the events leading up to this point.

13-my job is effected if not lost due to this side line issue.

:mad:

14 - You come home to find the Clampett's moved into your house.

Ugh.... 'holding out for disability'... I HATE HATE HATE that.

yeah,, i know what you mean, I hate a friggin locust.

I never really could get my head around the language used there,, "holding out for x y z"

Its like,,,,

umm,, almost there

just about,,,

ima getting closer

10 years later,,,,,,,,its just around the corner

ima a holdin out for it

It's waiting for something to happen instead of making it happen.  I had a friend who thought he'd get disability because he had a bad temper.....

What a bunch of rednecks. Just put a giant mosquito light on the property and maybe the dumbasses will gravitate towards it.

i'd just call to have their property removed from your property. Its the same as if someone left a car infront or in your yard. Tow it, and get it over with.

You'll never get a restraining order against yourself, and thats what would happen if they granted one.

Its like the seinfeild episode where Kramer and Jerry fight and Kramer says, "I think one of us should leave"... while there both in Jerry's apartment...

fence in some hogs and turkeys upwind from the house...seriously have you gotten legal council? I'd find out where the punks insurance is from and then film him and send it in to the company...BAM insurance fraud. I'd then get the old codger drunk and get him confessing on a hidden camera about the arson and take it to the police. if they can afford booze and building material, plus electricity then they can afford to live somewhere else.  it's your dime man, you're gonna need everyone you got when his depression hits!

Take them into town to eat, and have a buddy buldoze the place into a pile and light the mofookie on fire.  Or better yet, just light the f-er up and claim it must have been an electrical fire.

Seriously, though.  You have a hell of a heart.  There is something to be said for that.  But they are simply taking advantage of you.  Time to pull the cord on this one.

I'm sure your community will understand, and I would not worry about rumors.  I'll bet these people are known by the locals for what they are..... and I'm sure you are also known for what you are.  It sounds to me like you would have little to worry about.

A gallon of gas and a match.  That would be my approach.

What would the county or HuD do if they inspected the place... like was said before it's not an approved dwelling.. can you call in an inspection where they would shut it down?

jim
your talking about goverment burdens on the people that do not exist here.  very little has changed in a 80 years around here.  Its odd to see pictures of Union WV back in the 30's vs today,, looks pretty much the same to me.  My county and neighboring ones alike are not zoned so we are free to do as we wish except for drilling a water well.  That must have a permit,, only for the risk of a methane hazard and thats it.

I find it funny sometimes that the very fuel used to justify the "redneck" card typically applies to some well paid citizens,,, doctors, lawyers, judges, cops, car dealers, insurance agents, banks and the list goes on.  Each of which has a long history of being crooked, tricky, sneaky, mouthy, blunt, scamming, and the list goes on.

I have to wonder how much redneck all of us have.,, of which the so called original source "redneck" can be found being formed by a great ex-president on horseback.

Im just reading em like a see em,, the people are scamming and that is it.  I look at jimmy in perticulair and see a burden on society.  Yea they are poor, and have very little to thier name but the time has come to work on this the right way.  I hope its over sooner than later, the first few snow flakes fell moments ago and that really makes me feel bad doing this.  Its thier fault for not acting in time though.

You're right, it is their fault.  You have a very big heart (ever heard that old expression, the bigger they come the harder they fall?)... it's time to cut the chord.

I don't envy your situation what-so-ever.  I do wish you all the best though.  Let us know how it turns out.

What if you could find Jay? Would it be possible to have him subpoenaed as a witness to the original agreement? It was between you and him. With him leaving the property, this ended the terms of said agreement. If he was not "hostile", it could prove to be a good move.

I had to get my head around that thought and yesterday i went to the majistrates office to clairify something.  My thoughts were that I did enter a verbal agreement with Marie and her son Jimmy by stating they could stay there till holloween.

I told the majistrate that the judicial system has forced me to go beyond this date because they granted a continuance.  At this point my question was , "are'nt they now tresspassing?"

The magistrate said no and that since you let them stay, the same process applies and there must be a hearing.  Nov 3rd is the court date so we'll see.

thank you everyone

Time to get them out. I can tell you disability is for the lazy and those that really need it. I had a broken back and did my life get turned upside down yes it did. But did I get disability nope Yes I'm sure I could have but NOPE I'm not a LAZY sack or really need it! Holding out well every time I HOLD SOMETHING OUT it gets stolen. So just like that they aren't gonna get a Check they just g in the Wind so they can sit on there asses. Yes you've done all you can do. But think of this you ever work at one of those jobs and you couldn't fire a person but you wanted them gone! I sure have and what do you do. Set them up bug the  out of them everything you can think of to get them to want to leave. Find ever reason you can to pick on them. Are there cars all legal? are they legal to drive?  If they are like this to you I'm sure they have many other ducks that are out of line. Just pick them apart and they won't be able to get outta there fast enough! They wanna play games . GAME ON! not saying you do anything against the law. Just make sure they are well within the LAW. And god knows that if you kept showing up asking to barrow this and that all the time along with some barking dogs or mid night puppies hunting that will make them wanna leave. You live there think about you know that they dislike.

I don't think harrasing them or nit picking there  every move, whatever you call it as ipsd put it will get them to leave. I know  people like this and the bottom line is people in jeneral will follow the path  of least resistance. Free rent, or otherwise unenforcable rent is pretty  resistance free... your doing the right thing by going through the courts, even  though it will take longer than you would like.
 
 One thing I would like to mention, a few  things have been said several times in this thread. One is you have a big heart,  this I agree with.. Another is referance to things like 'nice guys finish last"  and that you did something wrong here or should not help otheres again. To all  of that, I say Bullshiznit! This one time you found some slimes that are taking  advantage of you, and it will probably happen again. But do not let these few  ruin it for you and all those that might actually be down on there luck and need  a hand up. Nice guys may finish the battle last but in the BIG picture I beleive  they will win the war. You keep right on being a nice guy!

thanks jim,
trust me though, i do have shady thougts about running them off but im not going to blackball myself with law when im asking the law to help out.

I would NOT do anything to harass them. If you annoy them enough to get them to leave, I would be very concerned about "payback". Once they are off your land, they have nothing left to lose by then harassing you. All of the "burn them out" comments mentioned on this forum (in jest or not) could now be applied to you. It's your home, not theirs, and they could care less if something happened to it. You're doing the right thing by choosing the legal route and by resisting the temptation to be a jerk.

Yesterday I decided to go down there and ask jimmy and marie why in the heck are they fighting me over this leaving issue.

I knocked on thier door,,,,,,,,,humph,,, yeah right,, perhaps I was knocking on my door.  I was really pissed at the time to because there had been no progress to moving and I just wanted to be rude to them and finally let them know the way i feel.  I have been polite and nice up to this point having given them since the 2nd week of sept there abouts to move out.

Now that we have court tomorrow over this,,, I thought I would get down to talk to them about why they thought it was such a great idea to push it this far without showing any sign of moving out.

So,, I knock on the door,, no answer.  I wait and knock several times again.  I dawned on me that i should just walk in and see if they are home fully aware im out there knocking.  I do so and find jimmy asleep just as i step inside to annouce myself good and loud.  There he sleeps on the couch and i just turn around and leave.  Hes probably high or something and crashed hard.  Its 3:30 in the afternoon which means nothing really other than the fact i  know he is not working.  Lazy Locust.

He calls me today and says that >JAY< siad i was down at the house snooping around.

Long story short, Jimmy said,,, "scott, do you really want to see mom out of here with no place to go",,, son on and so forth with all kinds of other things that made it sound like i need to provided more for him and his mom.

such a stupid situation.

When we are in court tomorrow,, I just wonder if the judge is going to give them a time frame to be out,, and if they are not, then the only thing i can do is petition the court again.

I see a tree coming down.

Just don't do anything stupid. There's some incredibly bad advice being given in here, especially now that you've got the law involved. I'd avoid anything on that list of events at the court hearing after step 4. Most of that sounded like your temper making your life a lot worse than it has to be.

My Dad went through something very similar with an old lady, and every grandchild she ever had, along with the random thieves who she called family who would stay there. It was our property, but they seemed to think they owned it. I asked my Dad why he didn't just show them the deed and tell them to get the hell out, so we can bull-doze this eyesore of a dump they called a home into a hole in the ground. He was waiting for the old bird to die, so he wouldn't be 'the farmer who kicked the old lady out'.

He waited, and now everyone is gone. But he should have kicked them out. He'd even been robed by them before. One broke into the house and stole some candy, just to prove that he could. And when Dad called the cops on him, the fool admitted to it (they had nothing but Dad's word, and the guy gave them the rest). A bunch even stole fire-wood from him. He told me he would have given it to them if they'd asked.

Being a nice guy gets you trampled on. You're doing the right thing.

oldraven is right. as specially with the law involved at this point. i would be very, very careful about droppin a tree so to speak. more so if the court does in fact lean in their favor. i also personally would probably be thinking the same thing but at this point, you would have to give it some time.

You are their landlord. Not a good idea to enter their residence without their consent or prior notice.

If you are indeed the landlord of the property, why didn't you just start charging them rent at a price they couldn't afford? then after they couldn't pay, have them evicted.

well, he was seriously concerned for their safety and was checkin on them.
 
theres a thought.

I am not thier landlord.
I gave them until halloween to get out and they were still there nov1.
I stopped to talk and decided that since no one answered, worse case would be that jimmy took off and his mother is dead due to the stress.
I found jimmy asleep on the couch as i stepped into the house.
I turned around and went home.

I dont appreciate you telling me what i can do on my own land.,, not to sound cross or anything but you spread your own wealth elsewhere and dont force me to do it.  Im done with these people and the structure is open to my invitation anytime i see fit from here forward.  I have given much and got nothing in return but a sour experience.

when you go to court, tell them that your just trying to evict them. Or raise there rent astronomically. In utah you only have to give them 72 hours after rent is due to evict them.

Court happened earlier today and the judge made her call.  Lots of little things were discussed but the oddest thing happened.  Jimmy basically "cross examined" the judge based on a conversation he had with her last week.  He tried to corner her into words she used last week and how they applied to the reasearch he had found on rental laws.  Needless to say this got him nowhere.

The judge gave them until noon on 22nov to be out.  Jimmy proceeded to explain that marrie is unable to pack and that he is disabled as well and can not do any packing.  Marrie is to do no heavy lifting nor is he.  The judge made a call to help them out and came back to tell them there is a lady they should call working under a state grant called FRN (Family Resource Network).  With this fund, there is 200 dollars they can get access to and a list of volunteers who work with FRN that can come in and assist in the move.  FRN was aware of this case as i had reached out to them on behalf of marrie about two weeks ago as well as calls to FMRS and Adult Protective services. 

Basically jimmy is a well and able body capable of pitching horse shoes, tearing down old structures for the metal, drinking and doing whatever he wants while he is "holding out for his check" ie-disability.  Oh well.

The judge explained the case was in my favor and i dropped the court costs absorbing them myself as well as damages to the property that includes my costs to have the place cleanded up.

I quoted myself to see if i am correct about my previous predictions below.

because suddenly something is written and with a written agreement, the whole process is more sensitive.  As the judge said, a verbal agreement can not be contested as it becomes a he said / she said sort of thing.  This being a verbal makes it a quicker process to remove people who do not belong on the property.

Besides,, i cant in good concience charge a rent i know is not right especially when the property has no water or sewage.

 Now that you put it that way, it makes more sense

jcassity I know im coming in on this late and probably wont matter what I say but I think there should be more people like you out in the world. Also dont let the BS of nice guys finish last stop you form being nice to others (which I dont think it will). Being nice will pay off sooner or later...

well, as is would be typical of us who have been down on our luck before,, today i called a neighbor to check in cause she was down with some odd bug going around.  This is the bug that put my wife and oldest boy down.  The neighbor lady (christine + 2 small boys) said she went to the doctor and did all the paper work for insurance.  Said paperwork got lost or whatever and she had to pay 230 dollars out of pocket for the office visit and meds because they showed no insurance coverage. 

She said she had to use money that was suppose to go elsewhere such as this and that to include some food.  When i got close to getting the drift that she was up and running / feeling better she said, "Im ok though, debbie got me a gallon of milk and tony picked me up a couple cans of chunky stew so im fine for tonight and the kids have milk for cereal before school tomorrow.  Ill worry about food tomorrow when it gets here".

So, brit and i got some food at save a lot and we picked up a bunch of on sale stuff to hold her out for a few days. It came to about 55bux to include, milk, eggs, butter, pancake mix, syrup, kid cerial, bannanas, apples, potatoes, peanut butter, jelly , 2 loaf of bread, vanella wafers, gram crackers, 2 things of biscuts,6 box's of mac n cheeze, coolaid mix, apple juice, roman noodles 2/10 packs, and whaterver else fit into the budget.

We get there to drop off the groceries she was not expecting and  found she was higher than a kite.  oh well.  I need to stop helping people who stopped helping themselves years ago.  The only problem is they have side issues like kids or elderly people involved which pulls on your concience.

I'm glad to see you got this resolved. Good luck with the next three weeks.

X2
watch your stuff....

like i initially said, if all of this is still going on near the holiday coming up, Ill let it ride past thanksgiving atleast.

As it is now, I am suppose to call the courthouse on 21nov at noon if they are not out.

I was told that if they are not out, the sherrif would have to dispatch to serve an eviction notice.

I asked if the eviction notice would give them more time.  The judge said that depends on what the sherrif does.

So,,, in a nutshell, the process may jerk me around more, maybe not.  to be continued

yeah, sometimes there are laws about evictions during the Winter Time....I'm not sure if this applies where you are, but you might want to check that.  At the least, they would be held in contempt if they somehow "miss" their out time.

Hey Scott, are they gone yet?

21nov-
Moving started

conversation with them consisted of a favor to let them spend the next couple of weeks making lenghty trips back and forth to load one pickup at a time.  I agreed.

22NOV- Jimmy falls and twists his ankle and off to the hospital they go.

1dec-someones truck arrives and takes stuff away.
2dec- same as 1dec

today, still much odds and ends in the house to be removed.  I have not heard a thing from them and the house remains locked up.

I will give it some more time but apparently they are taking thier time.  Either way it sounds like progress to me.

That's a very good attitude, man. :cheers: They may not be out yet, but at least you know they're leaving.

:beatyoass:

I'm late into this as well, but I just want to make a couple of comments. I applaud your Good Samaritan instincts, even though people often don't know a good thing when they have it. Some are from the "give them an inch" crowd that survives mainly by manipulating those who work hard and also have a conscience. I like discecting words (probably because I went to Latin school) and it is ironic that "conscience" breaks into "con science". :hick:  I grew up in the inner city and if anybody tells you there's a difference between country poor and city poor, I'll tell you they're full of it. I've heard the "waiting for the disability settlement" more than I care to discuss. Substance abuse, depression, stealing from your friends & neighbors, lying, crime etc... I could tell some real whoppers, but I'd be accused of hijacking the thread. I've seen my share of shivs and illegal guns. Most of those I knew who just couldn't make it died before they were 40 - probably for the best. The rest are in jail or are the "new" bums begging on the corner. I freaked when someone I knew from my generation came up to me begging for money. I walked away (I always hated the leach anyway).

Anyway, I'm glad things worked out for the best in court and hopefully your "burden" will be a distant memory by next Christmas. I do whatever I can for my neighbors, especially the person in the trailer home on the property next to me whose mother died recently. You can hold your head high as you did more than most would have - even if it wasn't appreciated. Heck, they'd probably still be there if it wasn't for "Jimmy" - lol.

No one saw that coming...

Glad to hear its going to be finished. So now the question is what will you do with the "house"

If they take to long u know a fire happened by mistake if u get what I mean :-p

perfect:D
just something else for me to clean up:hick:

I kinda expected more then that, myself.
But it's progress

jcassity; I don't envy you or your position.

I do have an idea of what you are going through (someday I'll share the story of Bolton Road with you)...

Keep on the path you are on.  Who was it in this thread that said something along the lines of "nice guys may finish last but they win the war"?  Point well taken.  I agree with this.  Even if wining the war means being able to look at yourself in the mirror each morning and liking what you see.  You can still do that, right? 

Because you should like what you see.