I dug into the intake to replace the gaskets, And figured~While i'm this far into it, I might as well change/check the headgaskets as well. :hick:
I only have the drivers side apart right now.
Is it just me, or does this head gasket look original?
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/driverpistons01.jpg)
How does everything look under here? Other then its a little black...
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/driverpistons03.jpg)
This one had some vertical sing/rust spots? along the bottom?:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/driverpistons02.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/driverpistons04.jpg)
Any visible problems i should look into?
The intake manifold gaskets and maybe the cfi spacer seem to be the only gaskets ever replaced... and in the process of changing the intake manifold gaskets, they managed to NOT tighten down the bolts properly on the entire intake. (some were finger tight!!!)
Under the manifold (Best looking gaskets i've seen on the car so far):
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/engine01.jpg)
Gasket Removed:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/head02.jpg)
Under Drivers Valve Cover:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/head01.jpg)
Don't look so bad.At least you got harder side off,not much room with the ex.there.
did those motors come with a notch on 2 sides of the piston? otherwise, id say those have been changed out.
When pulling off heads, use a shop vac and suck out as much coolant as possible. Coolant + engine oil = replacing bearings. Just FYI.
ok, ill do that with the shop vac on the next one.
i tried to my best to not let any coolant where it shouldn't go~im going to be doing a full oil and coolant change before startup after everything is back together also.
So no worries about the rust traces on the middle cylinder? or the black coating?
And it may sound odd... but should i keep the original head gasket on? it seems to have formed to and become one with the engine, and im wondering if this is a causing a better seal than a new a gasket may give. (and also why it hasnt blown a gasket yet).
As you can see in the pics, there is no gasket material seperating the cylinders like there is on a new gasket~this is actually flush with the metal of the block now. isnt this where the head gaskets always blow?
Far fetched, but had to ask.
Anything else i should do while im under here? im cleaning up the grime a bit and checking everything.
um, ALWAYS replace the head gaskets if you have the heads off. use your fingernail to see if it will catch on the top of the cylinders. if it does, then the motor will most likely need to be rebuilt.
ok, will do.
And i did the fingernail se at the tops and the vertical traces and my fingernail glided across just fine.
There was a slight notice of very very texture difference (like if you se you fingernail across chrome versus something steel, if that makes sense) but my nail slid just fine.
thats debateable,, but if the ridge is present, the only option to make the ridge go away is block work.
Is it nessasary to judge a motor by the ridge alone,, i dont think so. Ring end gap, yes but even on the stock rings, .040 + end gap on the compression rings isnt uncommon.
Yes,the pistons are stock,, i like them.
What should i use to clean up inside the engine a bit?
I started cleaning with some WD-40 (Wiping everything up), But i was really unsure so i stopped.
2+2 carb cleaner and some TB cleaner for the stuff that 2+2 will just destroy. and a ser for the gaskets. good luck man. I remember tearing the heads off a 3.8 on that side fighting the manifold off the whole time.
What's the current status?Input asap !!!
Dude,where you seriously thinking about reusing your old head gaskets????????????????????????
If so you should call a tow truck now and tow it too your nearest shop to get the gaskets replaced and everything cleaned,torqued and put back together.
Head gaskets are not something for someone too touch who has no knowledge of what's involved in doing them correctly.
You are going to cause serious engine damage the route your going and should stop right now and start a thread on what do i need to do to install head gaskets correctly.
Why are you using wd-40 as a cleaner,where are your sanding blocks/sers and gasket removal spray??????
Did you buy new head bolts????????????????
You can't reuse the old ones as they are one time use.
You need to read up ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chris, You should write up a "how to" on that very subject.
Should but it would be in vain,my last writeup on the 2.3-5.0L(most complete i've ever seen) swap didn't get stickied so.......
Whoah.. WHOAH!...
Don't have a heart attack!. :p
I have perfectionist tendencies, And worry about things too much.
So im more likely to mess something up by overcaring, than neglecting (lol).
I used WD-40, because i was told it would be fine.
I was still unsure, So i stopped soon after i started using it, and looked online for mixed responses. I then came to you guys.
I have carb cleaner, and i thought it would be too strong so i didnt bother with it.
I also get creative/obscure? ideas, and most of the time i shouldnt bother asking but i always do, heh.
I never had any intent on reusing the headgaskets.
Just thought there might be something useful in how the layout of these (seemingly original) gaskets formed to the block, and in the cars over 100k (HARD) miles never had the infamous blown headgasket problem.
Yes i got a new full engine gasket set and bolts + all the needed tools.
And yes this is my first time working on an engine, but i feel i'm very capable of doing so.
I just need guidance sometimes... I don't really have anyone else to look to for help in this area.
Reading up on everything is so impersonal, I'm a hands on kinda guy.
(This doesn't mean i don't read up on everything, I just prefer to talk it over with people whenever i can for better/experienced advice)
But yea... All is well right now with my TBird. :burnout:
Ah i see.
Had to say something man,hate to see ya destroy your engine.
Not sure this is really a job for a first time engine worker,it's one of the more difficult ones, next to an engine rebuild.
You need to read up on 3.8L head gaskets(or head gaskets in general)and the procedures involved in doing them to avert disaster.
This is a very tedius job,the head surface and block surface must be completely cleaned of old gasket material and made to have a very smooth surface or they will not seal.
You must NOT se the aluminum heads with a ser but instead use a 6-8" sanding block with emery cloth(Can't remember the grit exactly but its in the 800+ range) and go over them in a smooth length wise motion until all material is gone,this can take a while.
The block(being cast iron)can be sed but should be gone over in the same fashion with sanding block and emery cloth at the end.
The surfaces must be completely flat so you cannot sand without a block here or you will warp them for sure.
The intake surfaces should also be done in the same manner.
The head bolts do not go into water jackets(at least they didn't on my 3.8Lsc) so you do not need sealant on them.
You must however lightly oil(engine oil)the undersides of the bolt heads before installing to prevent improper torque and galling of the bolt heads.
The bolts must be torqued evenly and in this manner:
ANSWER:
1. 37 ft lbs.
2. 45 ft lbs.
3. 52 ft lbs.
4. 59 ft lbs.
5. Back all bolts off 2 to 3 turns and torque the long bolts 11 to 18 ft lbs and the short bolts 7-15ft lbs.
6. Then tighten long bolts 85 to 105 degrees and the short bolts 65 to 85 degrees.
Not my specs,i got them off the net and they appear to be accurate.
I think that about covers it so good luck and enjoy
ya gotta start somewhere. How did you start Chris? If it was anything like the rest of us, it was by trial and error.
I give him Kudos for jumping in like this. i was in 9th grade when i rebuilt the motor in the bird. still runs to this day.
go get em tiger.
Alright guys,
Due to uncontrollable cirspoogestances i would rather not go into.
I continue where i left off on the Head Gasket work~Hold the flames please. :flame:
I will hopefully be getting the drivers side done within the next few days, And coming to you guys for tips and such when I'm unsure of things as usual. :pbb:
So~
I peeled off the seemingly original head gasket, To have the rear just behind the cylinder tear apart very easily.
You can also see it has coolant damage and deformation in this pic:
(Meh forgot to take a pic, You can kind of see it in the pic on the first page)
I do believe i was on the way to a blown head gasket...
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/badgasket01.jpg)
Hopefully this is the cause of my compression troubles.
Anyway,
Then went to work, for 5 hours, sing away an extremely well bonded and baked on gasket remains:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/sedhead01.jpg)
(NOTE: You can see rust on the black where the coolant had been escaping?/setting on the gasket near the rear)
And thus finishes the first stage of cleaning:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/sedhead02.jpg)
Now i need to due the same to the head, Then get to work thoroughly cleaning the head and changing the valve stem seals and such.
Also,
I was planning on wet blocking the surfaces as a second stage.
What grits should i go with for best results?
Or should i go about this another way? I do not currently have compressed air available so i assume that would rule out most other options.
Should i just go over the surface with a 1200 grit sanding block as second stage?
Or, Should i go for a drill and a wire brush attachment? (sounds risky :dunno:)
I believe you have to use a block and follow through the entire surface to keep it flat..
But I don't know exactly. never done it on a motor. I just do it on machined tool surfaces.
your wasting your time,, you dont want a mirrior finish anyway. Just wire wheel the block and run along it with whatever you have to finish.
the reason your wasting your time is you can not machine the whole surface at once as it would be done with a surface plainer.
On the heads however, if you have a big enough belt sander, you can hold the head and allow the belt to sand the whole bottom at once. thats what i did and you know what happened?
the left and right sides of the head were getting sanded while the middle was barely getting touched. ok,, i continued only until i saw the middle was getting cut on then stopped. What this did was remove a sligth warp that naturally happens on the AL heads.
If you can afford it, take the heads somewhere so they can be milled. You can probably do this as a walk in to most any shop if they have a UFO cutter or plainer.
The block is prob fine and has no warpage.
as for the head bolts,,, just snug them in sequence per your haynes then snug a little more on each in sequence,, then in the proper order torque to ~50ft/lbs on the first serious torque,, then ~70ft/lbs on your final.
Forget about that degree wheel stuff, its for the birds. Keep it simple and just tighten them up.
Best advice next woud be (((DONT FORGET TO ADD SILICONE))) to the head bolts that pass into the water jacket. If you dont, you will see water coming out along the short bolts. I cant remember if the long bolts need sealed or not.
Those pistons dont look stock now the more I think about it. I thought your should be dished only , not dished and fly cut.
It is very common that you compression test and snug up the four bolts surrounding any low / odd compression cylinder. Just dial in another 5ftlbs or so but be careful not to go overboard. Dont assume just because the compression is low, it must be the headgasket. It could be valves not seating perfect ect.
Take that head apart and lap grind the valves and shim the spings. You will be best served to go buy a valve spring compressor for this but it can be done by other make shift tools.
looking good. Ive done several HGs now. Don't let anyone scare you. It really isin't all that difficult.
Piece of advice though,
Oil the cyl walls to keep them rust free.
Stuff rags down in the cyls when your sing.
Then use a compressor to blast the bolt holes clean.
If you have a tap, run it through the head bolt holes.
When you finish, pull the rags out to dump the garbage.
Blast around the rings to get any residual garbage out.
If you want, get a set of ARP studs for a chevy 2.8L and I would be surprised if you blow your HGs. I have them on my SC and haven't had a problem since.
i see you slipped in a little water jacket advice:hick:
ive never collected anyones thoughts on that, just mentioned it a few times here and there as to why there are none up front.
Thanks Guys!
Should i get any specific kind of wire wheel/brush? (brass, steel, etc)
And you think my pistons may not be factory? Interesting...
The biggest belt sander we have is something like 1foot by6inches and is ancient, Any ideas how much it might cost at a machine shop?
Any specific type/brand silicon (locktite?) to use on the threads?
And should i use any kind of sealant along with the new head gasket?
And yep yep~Been using shop towels in the cylinders, and whiping oil all over the internals cuz im super paranoid of rust. lol.
No compressor available ATM, But i have a couple 3hp shop vacs i've been using.
I've already purchases the new bolts, Clevite + 2 Felpro? shorties from jcassity (thanks!).
**Also,
Here is where i think the head gasket blew~even though it doesnt really look like it (circled red):
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/blownwcaptions.jpg)
That was taken less than 5 mins after i took the head off~Too much deterioration and rusting (underneath) for that length of time.
This is also the area where that mysterious smoke was coming from.
Head is cleaning up very nicely, I'm kind of surprised~
Before:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/headbefore.jpg)
After:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/headafter.jpg)
I wouldn't belt sand an aluminum head. Take it to a shop and have it milled. It shouldn't cost too much. Cheaper if you disassemble them yourself.
Also, Ive always had good luck cleaning the engine surface with cheap flat blade safety razors.
What does the combustion chamber look like on the 3.8L NA Heads?
What are you using to clean the heads? They look really good.
I'd just check for warpage. If its not warped, and the valves appear to be closed all the way, I would just clean it and leave it as is.
I have heard it both ways. Some people say that an aluminum head gets an impression from the old HGs and that they should always be resurfaced. I did this for my SC (because it was a huuuuuge biish and I would never want to do it again).
I have also just pulled the head, cleaned and slapped it back on with fresh gaskets. Both these cars are still on the road. The ladder is a boosted engine gets routinely flogged. So I guess its up to you. I would probably just clean them and install them unless there is obvious damage/warpage like haystack said. I still stand behind my "no belt sanders" recommendation.
it's always nice to see green coolant and not mixed with that brown (I.e. headgasket fix :P)
in that pic were you had the area circled when I replaced my intake manifold gasket the gasket looked like that, slightly worse and on the right bank in the front.
I'm surprised no one commented on the rust in your cylinder, even if the gasket wasn't blown doesn't mean the head wasn't cracked there?
I wouldve had them checked for that.
if my car wasn't 400 miles away and loaned out i wouldntve minded doing an article on replacing the gaskets and on it since I got all this free time now:/
One of the local machine shops says it would cost a minimum of 53.50 per head to re-surface~Is this average price?
Disassembly is no problem.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/beforeheadvalvesinstalled01.jpg)
Carbon is cleaning off very easily.
I used carb cleaner, Toothbrushes, Hand Wire Brushes and Razor Blades (Carefully!).
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/middleundesidevalve01.jpg)
**Note the indentation on the valve in the cylinder to your left... Can i just replace that one, Or do i need to replace them as a set?
They all looked to be setting in the EXACT same spot as before i dissembled.
Yea, There's little dimples in the metal from the original gaskets.
It's definitely going to be resurfaced before its put back on, I just need to figure out how... Money is tight.
Well i'm still cleaning, It's taking longer than expected, And i don't want to rush anything~But so far i don't see anything catastrophic!.
Thanks Guys!
about 20 bucks a head milled flat and was my guys rate for a v6.
about 65 for a fourbanger.
he'd take off more, as much as you wanted no charge but wouldn't be responsible for wrecking them by taking off too much.
Ok majority of the cleaning process is done, and taking longer than expected.
No cracks, But i noticed a chip (Valve Guide~Top):
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/valveguidechip01.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/valveguidechip02.jpg)
Should i be worried?
Here's some of my progress so far:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/cleanishhead01.jpg)
Is it going to cause any harm if i leave the valve guide like that? its such a minor chip and on the top end...
Machine shop wants $30 to swap it out. :punchballs:
If no one gives me a reason i shouldn't~I'm just gonna figure its ok and leave it. :-P
Took a flat edge to the HGasket surface, It does not appear to be warped at all.
I would just make sure it doesn't have any burrs and forge ahead. I wouldn't think it would cause any problems. Just remember what cyl/side you install it on.
Since this is already taking longer than expected~And i would rather not have to pull the heads off for a long while after re-installation.
I got to thinking about grinding (porting/polishing) and such.
Should i even bother?
Only really finding info on '94 and up V6 stangs.
Right now the ports are already clean enough to eat off of, lol~But the factory castings are a little jagged/rough on some of them.
Any porting guide that applies to aluminum heads will work, unless you plan to go really crazy about it. Just general a general cleaning/polishing. I wouldn't expect to get a reading on the butt dyno from porting work though.
Surf on over to SCCOA and do a search for porting. Your heads are similar (smaller camber, softer aluminum) but you might be able to find some info that way.
I would expect your best gains to be had by using mustang tubular manifolds (for the v6) and open up the exhaust, K&N that type of thing. I could be wrong. I don't know how much can be done to open up the intake.
Talk to jcassity and check out his site, he seems to be the local V6 guru.
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=2984
Well, I had some time and after reading up on it, I got in the mood.
Just spent 5 hours it, My hands are silver. :rollin:
I'll post pics soon of my progress.
Alright guys, I took a break after "porting" and just took another look at some stuff online (swirl flow specifically) as well as my previous work...
I'm worried i may have went a bit too far on the porting/polishing now. :punchballs:
Please take a look at the pics and confirm if a need to buy a new head or not. *facedesk*
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/Thunderbird/port01.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/Thunderbird/port02.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/Thunderbird/port03.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/Thunderbird/port04.jpg)
Argh~
Been searching and reading through so many different things on Head Porting, I just cant seem to come up with a for sure answer myself.
From what i can tell, and looking through pictures of other port jobs~I went past a standard "street" polish (grinding smoothing down sharp edges), And got into the heavier straight up porting stuff?
And (I THINK) i should be fine, as long as i get everything matched up, and measured out.
As for swirl flow~I've either screwed that up or it wont affect anything (much).
So, Should i continue with it? Or just start over (CAREFULLY) with a parts car head?
I think it looks fine, especially for the exhaust side. As long as you are not into water jackets you should be fine for the exhaust. The intake side is where your air/fuel mixture will have to deal with altered port designs the most. On a CFI type of engine like you have, the air and fuel mixture will have to travel down the length of the intake runner as well as the head. Improper porting can cause the air and fuel to slowly move through the port, decreasing the velocity. On the exhaust side there is nothing like that to deal with. The more open the port...the better.
Ensure that you leave the intake side a little rougher than the exhaust to enhance the fuel distribution.
*takes a deep breath of relief*
Thanks so much for clearing this up.
Its like i read up from a few sources and start on it, Then after i've done work~I read up more from other sources and the info conflicts with what i've done just done...And freaks me out. >.<
Any updates? That was a good read and I always enjoy watching other people do work.:)
What are you using to port with?