Ok over my last couple of days of I took Da Bird out testing and tuning! everything was going good. Then it seemed like if I hit Upper RPM it would just fall flat. So I pulled over made sure the Dizzy wasn't loose or something funny under the hood and all was good. So I took off towards home and I guess stepped on it more than I thought because I took off like crazy! I was thinkin YES that is it. slaped it in 2nd got on it a hair and wanted to rip so I just headed for the house for a good once over before anything serious rodding. Then the motor just shut off. The whole car was on the motor wasn't running. Tried to roll start it in 3rd and just slowed me down. Pushed in the clutch and hit the starter. Motor spinin but not starting. Coast home and push her the last 20-30 feet. I'm thinkin the TFI so I put on my spare that I know is good and still cranking but not starting. I did notice the tac wasn't jumping during cranking so I took and warrantied the Dizzy and got a new one thinking PIck up coil. Slid the new dizzy in and hooked it all up and still motor spining but not starting dizzy is jumping. I need to get a timing light to set it once I'm up and running. Even with the Pil pulled and moving the Dizzy cant get it running and YES the fuel pumps are running! Yes there is good gas in the tank! anyone have any ideas?
Check your Timing (Cam) You may have jumped a tooth.
Check for spark at the coil. You may not be getting spark.
Pulled codes yet?
Well I guess you didn't lose the dist/AUX gear since you pulled the distributor out of the car. You did examine the AUX gear, right?
You didn't lose the timing belt or tensioner did you?
The Aux gear is fine and the belt is still on there. I inspected that Dizzy closely and no signs of wear or slipage. I can see the belt it looks tight through the plastic cover hole. Seems tight with finger pressure. did some searching over at turbo ford someone posted that it might be the ignition switch gonna do some trouble shooting but never know
spark is easy enough to check, start there with one of your plug wires off to gnd or with a spark checker.
fuel is easy enough to check,, push the pin on the shrader valve and see if you get rained on.
timing is easy enough to check with your crank on TDC, see if the cam is in the correct spot. Next check that the rotor button is also in the correct spot.
Check in the dizzy on the stator for metal debris on the magnet.
next, pull codes.
Ok did some more research into this. I found that I do have spark. The only problem is it seems I only have spark when I 1st hit the key and when I stop cranking but not during cranking! So I'm thinking Ignition switch. Need to pull the column cover and do some testing. Anyone Know of anything else that would cause this type of situation?
A different contact in the ignition switch makes the coil hot in start. So it could be the ignition switch.
To check it out:
Pull the small red wire off the start relay. This will stop the engine from cranking. Put your volt meter on the W/LB wire on the BATT side of the coil. It should be hot in both start and run.
I haven't had time to check that yet But thanks for the input. I'll check that before I install the new ignition switch. I also remember when I installed one about 2yrs ago the plug wasn't the greatest so I picked up a new Pigtail for it! Borg Warner part number PT5534.
Mine had done the exact same thing. I could actually hold the key in the run position and keep it going but if I released it fully it shut off. I replaced the ignition switch with one from Ford and it cured it for a bit. On mine I finally found the neg batt cable was coming loose from the terminal(it was the original). I replaced it nearly 3 years ago and have been fine ever since.
Did some more digging tonight. Found that I only had spark for the 1st few cranks of the motor. And yes the coil is hot in both start and run. Did some more checking couldn't find anything. I tried the new ignition switch. Didn't install it on the column but plugged it in and operated it with a flat blade. That wasn't it Then I thought well I'd slip my Tested Good Motorcraft TFI back in! Sparky sparky and more sparky. Put the coil wire back on the dizzy hit the key and VROOM! So I guess my spare TFI is toast.
Guess its not fixed! I took her out the other day. made it about 1mile from the house and she stopped again! :punchballs: I called the wife and had here come to the rescue with the jeep and a tow strap. Brought her home and couldn't find the problem. Still only have spark when I first hit the key and when I let off. I have 4 days of this coming weekend and plan on getting this worked out. any help would be appreciated!
Do you have spark while cranking?
have that tfi tested if its fried then your gonna have to find out why it fried. but since that was the culprate the first time id be leary of it doing it again.
Try unplugging the SPOUT. This will get the EEC out of the picture.
It does sound like a TFI/Distributor emitter problem.
Back it on this one. Got back on it in the last few weeks. The car starts cold then get to norm temp then within a few min dies. I did some double checking on everything. These are good: PIP, TFI, Coil, TPS, Fuel Pumps, Injectors, Knock sensor, Vam, ACT inside Vam, BAP, Alt, Plugs, Wires, Cap, Rotor. So I did lots of searching over at turbo ford. Found some info pointing to the ECT, or my Remote TFI setup. So I got to checking. Went a checked my TFI setup first seeing how that could directly effect spark. So I removed the battery and dug in. Unwrapped my covering along with the factory JUNK. Wow the py insulation had come off in many places and had BARE wires everywhere. Got all the wiring from the main car connection and wires from the wiper motor area to front end gone over fixing anything that was any where near a question. Hooked everything back up she was running GREAT even better than before. Just went to unhook IAC and Cough cough DEAD. Never even got the IAC unhooked.:punchballs: So. I go to crank her up just in case and I only get one tach jump each time I try to start her up. So once again I know I have no spark. :bricks1: So at this point I'm thinking there is probably some other wires that aren't in such good shape like I found before. So I ripped the battery back out of the car along with battery tray. From there I just started gutting all the factory Tape type . Thinking since I have to dig into this now is the time to get the wiring in order clean it all up and make it so it looks good and not the WIRES EVERYWHERE theme that I already have. Trust me it isn't fun but in the long run it will be more than worth it. Here are some pics of the progress.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s188/ipsd1/Da%20Bird/Electrical/wires2.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s188/ipsd1/Da%20Bird/Electrical/Wires.jpg)
Right now wires are not my friend but by the time I'm done they will be. Found many more missing insulation locations. Along with fixing those I took some degreaser and some wash cloths and scrubbed each wire. Inspecting them and getting them nice and clean. Since I'm up to all that sorting and running them in a nicer visual fashion is in order. I did find one of the wires going to the ECT was broken. Hoping that is my issue on why it keeps dying. Updates soon.
Stuclman
Well I've been away for awhile but i'm bk. Just life got in the way. Now that I'm bk on track. I've been digging into what is up with my bird. t has been sitting for a long time. I was Pissed at it. Things still aren't going my way with Da bird. I've got the wiring all lined bk out and got her put all bk together.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s188/ipsd1/Da%20Bird/Electrical/Underhood.jpg)
She looks alot better under there than she has in a LONG TIME. I did find many many spots of missing insulation and some piss poor wires that I replaced. She starts she runs way better than I remember. Idles really nice and smooth. Starts with just a crank or two. But once she gets up to norm temp she shuts down and Nothing. No spark at all. I can even have it sitting there running and its like someone shut of the key. Fuel pump still running still have 39psi. But no spark. Please I know its been a long time running but I just got so mad at the car I let it sit instead of doing something I would regret later. So if you have any ideas let me know so I can check those. I' ve already replaced the TFI and the Dizzy several times and they all do the same thing. So between 4 TFI's and 3 dizzys they all do it.
Thanks
Stuckman
is it possible that your coil is taking a dump when it gets hot? i see its an acell coil. but what you described is something is getting heat soaked and it shuts down so it doesn't overheat.
Above the ECM on the passenger side behind the glove box there is a relay.for the ECM .Ford calls it the eec relay .
I had an 86 turbo coupe that is doing exactly what you are describing That relay was the culprit on mine .
I was thinking possible coil prob too. I swapped in that accel in place of the Motor craft unit I had in the car. I even dug out a back up coil and all three do the same thing. So I'm thinking we can rule out the coil. No the car doesn't over heat it just about gets to normal operating temp and she dies like I turned off the spark. Let her sit until shes all cooled off and VARRRROOOOMM there she goes. I'll have to dig out that relay tomorrow and see what I can find with that maybe that is it. I sure hope so.
Try another EEC if you have one laying around. The only thing I can think, is the computer changes strategies at different temperatures. Maybe try unplugging the spout and wait to see if it still dies like that? That should lock out the timing and leave it in closed loop, I belive.
Well did some more investigation and found that The EEC relay isn't it. Tried a spare and still same thing. Swapped in my old 84 TF EEC and still same thing. So pretty sure we can rule that out. Anyone know of a way to test the PIP with a multi meter to make sure the signal is getting through the wiring.
If you unplug the SPOUT, the TFI will control the spark independent of the EEC.
Spout in spout out same problem.
You mentioned that you have remoted the TFI. When it stalls, feel the TFI to see how hot it is. If it is hot, you will have to put a heatsink on it.
You also said when the engine stops the fuel pump keeps running. Are you sure of this? The pump should stop when the engine stops.
The pressure can stay up for a long time after the pump stops.
You mentioned that you have remoted the TFI. When it stalls, feel the TFI to see how hot it is. If it is hot, you will have to put a heatsink on it. Yep it sure it remote mounted on a heatsink right there behind the grill area above the intercooler. So Sure running down the road sure not a prob wouldn't think there would be sitting still be a thing to check.Here is a pic so you get where its at.(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s188/ipsd1/Da%20Bird/Engine/P1012187.jpg) It was a little warm the whole heat sink and such but it was 85*F outside. I did swap on my Motorcraft TFI just to check that aspect again. Still Nothin once hot and one a 85*F day she stays warm enough backed out in the sun all day. Still the other night couldn't get her to fire back up at 7pm and it was cooler out about 75*F. Thinking about running just a set of testing PIP wires just some kind slopped on the car outta the way but long enough to get the testing done. If that does it rip back into the wiring and strip out and replace pip wires.
You also said when the engine stops the fuel pump keeps running. Are you sure of this? The pump should stop when the engine stops. Yes I'm fully aware of this just one of the many things I've found in this car where the original owner hacked out the FP relay setup and just hooked it up with a fuse to the EEC. Needing to get it fixed. Just hacked the whole FP relay and harness piece of my parts 88 coug today. :hick:
The pressure can stay up for a long time after the pump stops. Yes it can not to worry if I need to do any fuel system service I have a Injection style FP tester that has a Nifty litte bleed the pressure off out this little clear hose nice nd safe. No pushing the schrader valve and seeing if fuel comes spraying out here. F#@% that .
Stuckman
Ok went out yesterday to move her out of the shop so we could tint some windows on a buddies mini van. She was nice and cool hooked up the battery, got in turned the key RRRRR and tach is jumping. Koo mean we got spark. But she didn't start up HUMM. Just turned the key to run and guess what no FP running. WTF. So today I set out to get that lined out. Looked the wiring and found right there at the FP relay wiring I have 4 wires that are where the relay and pigtail should be. Broke out my DMM and tested them 14-12ga yellow wire 12v hot at all times. Then 14-12ga pink/lt blue nothing but finding that is power to the pump from the yellow wire when the relay is switched. Then Tan/blue wire from the EEC that is Gnd when the EEC is on. Then a small red wire coming from the Safety Shutoff box that gives me 12v with the key in start and run. So the wiring colors on the 88 cougar pigtal match what I got in the 84 so I wire her up and still nothing. I grounded the EEC ground at the test connector and still no pumps. I haven't put a spark tester on it to verify spark but when the spark it gone so is my tach jump. The tach is jumping so assuming I have spark the EEC and that would have to be getting PIP signal. So just kinda flustered. Just venting and taking a break. What to do now?
Stuckman
Ok got bk out there and did some more digging. Found that the FP relay that I got from my parts car was toast. Just put some spades on and extra pigtail I had laying around for those universal fog light type relays. Plugged that in and still no FP running. This time when I short the test connector pin to ground the pump is running. So I guess the EEC isn't sending the signal to the FP relay. That might have been why the Original owner bypassed it. But with the FP jummpered Starts right up. So guessing I have spark bk. I need to get her out of the shop and see if she dies again when warm.
Stuckman
Well got her backed out of the shop and let her run. Once she got warmed up she Died again. Need to finish tinting the back window on my 94 cougar then back to work on Da bird.
Stuckman
what does the spark, fuel pump do when it gets warm and dies? does one or both cut out? and what cuts out when it gets warm and dies? i still think something is getting heat soaked and its killing the car.
It losses spark when it get up to normal temp. The fuel pumps are still running but I've got them shorted at the test connector to get them to come on. Still need to get this lined out hopefully I can get this figured out today.
Stuckman
What about your engine ground? Heh, it's worth a shot. I had a geo metro that acted funny because the engine ground lug was corroded.
I just double checked it. All four of them that I have now. Don't find any problems with the grounds. I did do some searching and over a turbo ford they said the TPS out of wack can cause something like that. Well Checked and it is set at .97volts and has no drop out in the full range all the way up to 5volts. I unplugged it and did my run until she dies and still dies once she gets warmed up. Humm still plugin away slowy sometime I'll get this lined out.
Stuckman
I read through this once but can't remember if you tried another EEC?
If you need an LA3, I have one for sale...
Keep on pluggin, you'll find the cause soon :D
I hate to say it but it sounds like you are at that point where finding a car with a donar harness would be cheaper and faster. Sometimes a factory harness gets so hacked up and brittle that you just cannot find the problem(s). I did a little searching and found a company that makes them brand new so it might be worth a look. Kind of pricey but the fact that someone even makes them new is a miracle:
http://thedetailzone.com/Ford%20Replacement%20Harnesses.htm
The wiring harness is about 3/4 the way down the page. They also make 5.0 harness and all kinds of other ones. I checked Painless but they do not show one for the 2.3L. They make a great harness for the 5.0L which I have.
Darren
I've got this all worked out. I found that the PIP"pickup" was over heating and shutting down. I had a new one and a used one. Both did it. Found out the new one was Toast. After replacement I let her run for 20+ min in the driveway. She ever shut down. So Yesterday I took her out and got and inspection. Passed right away then a quick trip to the DMV and She all legal again. Nice to have my birdie back.
Stuckman
It didn't throw a code for the pip? The one in my 95 died and didn't throw a code. I replaced it and the car has been fine since.
Glad u got that sorted out!
hell you even tested the pip and passed it. What caused it to be fried?
Many times you can test an ignition module and it will test okay. It's not until it heats up that it breaks down. I always say if in doubt replace it.
Well I guess it isn't really fried it will work for bit then heat up and shut down. After hours and hours of probing wires and swapping parts. I took back the A1-Cardone Dizzy that I purchased and warrantied it out for another unit and that fixed it right up. Why this happened I don't know. I guess something in the PIP went south and caused it to heat up and stop sending the Signal to the TFI. Just glad its all back in working order. Now on to the many other task that need to be tackled.
Stuckman