Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: grutinator on August 26, 2008, 10:23:55 PM
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: grutinator on August 26, 2008, 10:23:55 PM
can you run E6 heads on a SO flat-top bottom end with a H.O. cam (this is the kicker) and 1.7 rollers rockers?
im getting in on of those moods(i get these from time to time but never have the time to do anything) where im seriously considering doing the swap and theres a week coming up where i can probably get off, so im seriously considering taking off and doing the swap then.
but my SO motor currently has 1.7 RR on there right now, and i'd rather not swap back to stamped steel 1.6's if i can get away with it. so will i have the clearance?
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: vinnietbird on August 26, 2008, 10:36:54 PM
I'd say yes with the stock H.O cam.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: V8Demon on August 26, 2008, 10:43:52 PM
Always check PTV, but you SHOULD be fine.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: grutinator on August 26, 2008, 11:07:01 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;233778
Always check PTV, but you SHOULD be fine.
i know it should be checked, but im really trying to not pull the heads if i can. it'd just be easier to do it with the exhaust all bolted up and not having to buy new head gaskets, if im gonna go that far ill put E7's on, which im not gonna go outta my way to do. i cant afford to run into any problems with this, the less i take off, the less chance i break something.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: V8Demon on August 26, 2008, 11:15:46 PM
Quote
but im really trying to not pull the heads if i can
the second method here (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showpost.php?p=229723&postcount=13") is how you'd want to do it then
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: dominator on August 26, 2008, 11:26:14 PM
Don't bother checking ptv. Guys are running bigger cams with 1.7s on so flatops. Your lift with 1.7s on the stock ho cam will be .477, the e-cam is .499 and the stage 1 TF is .499/.510,guys have run these cams with no problems or ptv interference. 1WLDBRD and vinnetbird come to mind amongst many others.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: vinnietbird on August 27, 2008, 06:50:44 AM
Yep,my E303 is really happy.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 27, 2008, 08:06:29 AM
I ran 1.7s on a otherwise stock E6 headed '86 HO, no prob...
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: flipnbird on August 27, 2008, 08:08:10 AM
@vinnietbird---so you are running the e-cam w/1.7's and E7's on SO flat tops?, no releifs? That's .529 lift,,,,,,,,,that's cool
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: V8Demon on August 27, 2008, 08:33:13 AM
Vin, what springs do you run?
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: dominator on August 27, 2008, 12:06:01 PM
No vin runs 1.6s on his.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: Sick88Tbird on August 27, 2008, 08:52:50 PM
It's amazing how quickly people forget that the SO motor does NOT have flat top pistons...it's dished with no reliefs.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: grutinator on August 27, 2008, 09:34:45 PM
Quote from: dominator;233792
Don't bother checking ptv. Guys are running bigger cams with 1.7s on so flatops. Your lift with 1.7s on the stock ho cam will be .477, the e-cam is .499 and the stage 1 TF is .499/.510,guys have run these cams with no problems or ptv interference. 1WLDBRD and vinnetbird come to mind amongst many others.
sweet thats what i wanted to hear. i should be good to go then.
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;233901
It's amazing how quickly people forget that the SO motor does NOT have flat top pistons...it's dished with no reliefs.
sorry, its easier to say flat-top then dished with no reliefs. apologies all around.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: V8Demon on August 27, 2008, 09:57:52 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;233901
It's amazing how quickly people forget that the SO motor does NOT have flat top pistons...it's dished with no reliefs.
They are flatter than HO pistons. ;)
It's become quite common over the years to say that here though; even though it is technically incorrect.
Quote
Your lift with 1.7s on the stock ho cam will be .477, the e-cam is .499 and the stage 1 TF is .499/.510,guys have run these cams with no problems or ptv interference.
Stop getting hung up on the max lift #'s. They have almost zero effect on piston to valve clearance. Where is the piston when the intake lobe is at full lift? Where is it when the exhaust lobe is at full lift?
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: grutinator on August 27, 2008, 10:59:44 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;233820
I ran 1.7s on a otherwise stock E6 headed '86 HO, no prob...
did you clay yours? if you got away with it, i should be able to also correct? idk how close im cutting it with the graphs stated in the previous post.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 27, 2008, 11:31:20 PM
I put em on and went to the drag strip...
The valves are sunk so far into the combustion chamber on the E6s, they have no PV clearance issues...
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: Sick88Tbird on August 28, 2008, 05:26:13 PM
Quote from: grutinator;233912
sorry, its easier to say flat-top then dished with no reliefs. apologies all around.
true, but it's even easier to just say "SO pistons"...lol
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: dominator on August 28, 2008, 07:17:11 PM
Although somewhat true don't confuse the man,he asked a simple question"will it work"answer yes. We have no need to get into camshaft technical jargon here,most of us don't and usually only talk about max lift or duration.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: Kitz Kat on August 28, 2008, 07:56:16 PM
Quote from: flipnbird;233821
@vinnietbird---so you are running the e-cam w/1.7's and E7's on SO flat tops?, no releifs? That's .529 lift,,,,,,,,,that's cool
I sean this .It's wrong.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: Kitz Kat on August 28, 2008, 07:58:35 PM
Quote from: kitzdnm;234022
I sean this .It's wrong.
Wow this is bigger than I thought.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: V8Demon on August 28, 2008, 08:23:18 PM
you're thinking B-cam.....I did the same thing.....Looked it up and saw it was right. I get the b and e mixed up on occasion.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: vinnietbird on August 28, 2008, 09:48:59 PM
My engine originally came from an '87 Mark VII (new rings,bearings,timing chain,etc).It has forged flat top pistons.....FLAT LIKE KANSAS.The heads are ported E-7 heads with 1.6 roller rockers.The cam is an E303.The springs,I'm not sure.They were added by the machine shop and are beehive shaped.I really don't remember the brand.I have no PTV problems,the car pulls hard and will roast the tires without breaking a sweat.I'm happy.......for now.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: grutinator on August 28, 2008, 10:34:10 PM
Quote from: dominator;234020
Although somewhat true don't confuse the man,he asked a simple question"will it work"answer yes. We have no need to get into camshaft technical jargon here,most of us don't and usually only talk about max lift or duration.
yea, thanks. i didnt think it'd get this technical. lol. buts good to know that it will work. but i always love learnig more about cams. i used to go by just max lift for a general idea. but since ive worked with jay allen for the cam on my T-bird and researching, theres SO MANY factors that make a cam what it is. so wherever i can learn more bout cam characteristics and thier function i try to absorb it. so this thread has helped.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: vinnietbird on August 28, 2008, 11:35:57 PM
Hey,better to have too much info than not enough.Besides,it never hurts to keep talking about these subjects even when they turn in to more than they were originally intended.A lot of times,people who are just watching learn from it as well.besides,it doesn't hurt anything.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: V8Demon on August 29, 2008, 06:30:34 AM
Quote
Hey,better to have too much info than not enough.Besides,it never hurts to keep talking about these subjects even when they turn in to more than they were originally intended.A lot of times,people who are just watching learn from it as well.besides,it doesn't hurt anything.
Agreed. Besides that a .400" lift cam with too much duration would need notched pistons before something like what Thunjerjet used in his car (high lift; relatively short duration)
Quote from: Dominator
We have no need to get into camshaft technical jargon here,most of us don't and usually only talk about max lift or duration.
Thread: Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums > Technical > Engine Tech > 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Yup.....Its a TECHNICAL THREAD Where else should we talk about technical info?
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: 1WLD BRD on August 29, 2008, 10:44:08 AM
I have pretty much the exact set up as Vinnie.... I dont think they would clear with a 1.7 RR....
what Im wondering is.... Why are you bothering with the E6's to begin with? they are boat anchors... s em and go E7's
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: jcassity on August 29, 2008, 12:54:09 PM
i recently had to do the feeler guage method but I did not need an additonal spring.
I just rotated an easy to get to piston at tdc. felt around in there with a small dowel as i felt for the final TDC rotating the crank cw/ccw a little bit. removed the spring set. snapped on my magnetic dial indicator to a near by spring. positioned the dial indicator over top of the valve which was sitting atop the piston. zero'd out my dial indicator as the probe touched top of the valve stem. lifted up the valve with my fingers and read the dial indicator reading.
I compared my readings to not using a spring but using a feeler guage cause i thought that would be a more applicable way for people without the dial indicator.
without a spring, just loosen the rocker fulcrum and then snug it finger tight against the push rod while holding up the rocker nose that would normally sit atop your valve stem. Basically just get the push rod snug to the lifter and the rocker.
Letting go of the rocker nose allows it to flop around a lot. lift up on the valve by finger and insert the feeler guage in the gap between the valve stem and the rocker nose.
for the cost of a new set of valve covers, this can be done pretty easy.,,if the valve cover gaskets even need replaced. I alway silicone my gasket to the cover only just for this reason incase i need to get in there at the valves/rockers for timing issues ect.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 29, 2008, 01:32:54 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;234085
Agreed. Besides that a .400" lift cam with too much duration would need notched pistons before something like what Thunjerjet used in his car (high lift; relatively short duration)
True my cam is @.050 210*I/215*E with lift .533I/.533E. Clears my flat tops fine with a 1.6 rocker but I have valve notches. And yes I do have flat tops.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: Sick88Tbird on August 29, 2008, 06:34:10 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;234117
True my cam is @.050 210*I/215*E with lift .533I/.533E. Clears my flat tops fine with a 1.6 rocker but I have valve notches. And yes I do have flat tops.
Actually you do NOT have flat tops...flat tops are just that...flat...no valve notches...go pull the heads off an '86 HO...now those are flat tops.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 29, 2008, 07:30:58 PM
Quote from: 1WLD BRD;234097
what Im wondering is.... Why are you bothering with the E6's to begin with? they are boat anchors... s em and go E7's
And have another set of boat anchors that uses a different spark plug...
With 1.7s, underdrives and a 2 1/2" catback system, my otherwise stock '86 5 speed, 2.73 geared Stang, ran a best of 14.51 @ 95.5mph... That was on shiznitty tires and 2.2 short time, with traction it would have run 14.2s easy... It did start to "nose over" at about 5300 rpms, but I believe that was mostly shiznitty valve springs...
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 30, 2008, 02:43:36 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;234131
Actually you do NOT have flat tops...flat tops are just that...flat...no valve notches...go pull the heads off an '86 HO...now those are flat tops.
I know *flat* tops have no notches. I've seen plenty of 86 HO pistons. My pistons (even though they have valve notches) are flat topped vs stock 87-93 HO pistons as those have a dish around the valves, where as mine do not.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: grutinator on August 30, 2008, 03:05:31 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;234131
Actually you do NOT have flat tops...flat tops are just that...flat...no valve notches...go pull the heads off an '86 HO...now those are flat tops.
cant flat top also mean they are niether domed nor dished? i mean thier not perfectly flat all the way across cus of reliefs, but thier otherwise flat?
Quote from: 1WLD BRD;234097
I have pretty much the exact set up as Vinnie.... I dont think they would clear with a 1.7 RR....
what Im wondering is.... Why are you bothering with the E6's to begin with? they are boat anchors... s em and go E7's
the t-bird is going to be more then fast enough. im not going to try and make the cougar my hotrod, i dont want two money pits. i just want a little more power and i've done near everything a person can do to get power out of a SO motor, its time to go HO. im guessing 210hp now, figure cams good for 50hp, plus i have all new lifters pushrods and timing set. so 260ish maybe a touch more. not that bad.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: 1WLD BRD on September 01, 2008, 05:36:10 AM
boy have you got alot more reading to do if you figure your cam is worth 50hp!
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: grutinator on September 01, 2008, 11:50:19 AM
i said give or take.
in 86 the ho and the so used pretty much the same everything except cam, and made 200 where the so was 150. is 50 really that crazy of a number to claim?
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 01, 2008, 12:01:05 PM
Quote from: grutinator;234441
in 86 the ho and the so used pretty much the same everything except cam, and made 200 where the so was 150. is 50 really that crazy of a number to claim?
Depends...
If you're going to use it by it's self, then you'll be disappointed...
If you plan on using the larger TB & EGR spacer, the 19lb inj, HO EEC and headers with true dual exhaust system, then you'll have the extra 50HP... With a true HO intake, and the 1.7s, probably closer to 60HP...
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: Sick88Tbird on September 01, 2008, 05:45:59 PM
Having half a point less compression with the SO pistons isn't going to help matters much.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: grutinator on September 01, 2008, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;234443
Depends...
If you're going to use it by it's self, then you'll be disappointed...
If you plan on using the larger TB & EGR spacer, the 19lb inj, HO EEC and headers with true dual exhaust system, then you'll have the extra 50HP... With a true HO intake, and the 1.7s, probably closer to 60HP...
mods-
bbk 1-5/8 shorty headers flotech offroad h-pipe 2.5 flowmaster 50 series catback 2.5 H.O. upper intake, TB and EGR 1.7 RR electric fan pulleys adj fuel pressure reg and then little like cold air, smog delete(that )
like i said, ive done pretty much everything i can do to a SO and still have it be a true SO.
and yeah, i'd put 19's and the computer too. i didnt specify but i just assumed that all that was required in any H.O conversion. heads are kinda optional, but you need that for it to run right. i'd also upgade the pump too.
Title: 1.7 on HO Conversion?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 02, 2008, 09:01:53 AM
Sorry I don't keep up with everyones mods, got more important things to worry about...
With the electric fan, headers and 2 1/2" exhaust, that ought give(free up) another 15-20hp...