General => General Fox T-Bird/Cougar Discussion => Topic started by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 28, 2008, 07:42:12 PM
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 28, 2008, 07:42:12 PM
Hey guys. I'm sorry for the newbie question, but is it worth the trouble (performance wise), to go through the trouble of putting a GT40 5.0 in one of our cars, instead of a normal 5.0 H.O engine? If you get your hands on a H.O. 5.0, you don't have to worry about changing the things you have to change on a GT40 5.0 to get it to work in a Fox chassis car. I know the GT40 heads flow better than E7's do and the GT40's intake flows better, but like I said, do most of you think the performance improvement, or potential of a GT40 makes it worth the extra work?
Thanks for any and all replies.
Vic
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87 on July 28, 2008, 08:12:09 PM
you would want to change the cam in the explorer motor.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 28, 2008, 08:29:42 PM
Quote from: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87;229536
you would want to change the cam in the explorer motor.
The search function really is a wonderful thing! By switching around key search words I was using, I brought up a lot of good info on this topic. I just read that Explorer cams were milder than H.O. cams. After finding the info I did, it looks like my best bet will be to go the 5.0 H.O. route. Down the road, I guess I could always tweak my combo.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 28, 2008, 08:43:19 PM
The GT-40 is to the HO what the HO is to the SO...Unported, E7 heads are , go with the 40 and put a little more cam in it...
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 28, 2008, 09:26:30 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;229542
The GT-40 is to the HO what the HO is to the SO...Unported, E7 heads are , go with the 40 and put a little more cam in it...
Because of the pistons in the GT-40, aren't you really limited on how much cam you can run without clearance issues? I was under the impression that PTV clearance was even more of an issue with 40's than with regular HO's. Do you have any recommendations on a good cam for a 40? I think I can get my hands on a 40 out of a 98 Explorer.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88TurboCoupeman01 on July 28, 2008, 09:56:48 PM
There are GT-40 high performance cams out there just google them or go to your local racing shop and order them. I seen a GT-40 in a factory mustang 5.0 and I drove it too and the cam was like the best cam in the 5.0 mustang motor just get a mustang motor and put a Bigger lift GT-40 cam and sprap u self and also get rady to wash your drales when u get home cause the first time u drive it the coolest feeling, I neaver driven a 5.0 mustang motor and had a better experance and the best thing is the car got 20t miles in the city with just a GT-40 cam and 3.83 gears. If that doesn't convience u to do this set up than I want to know what your smoken cause so I can stay away LOL.:burnout:
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: *MAYHEM* on July 28, 2008, 10:31:00 PM
Ummmmmmm...... Huh?
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 28, 2008, 10:32:33 PM
Quote from: 88TurboCoupeman01;229553
There are GT-40 high performance cams out there just google them or go to your local racing shop and order them. I seen a GT-40 in a factory mustang 5.0 and I drove it too and the cam was like the best cam in the 5.0 mustang motor just get a mustang motor and put a Bigger lift GT-40 cam and sprap u self and also get rady to wash your drales when u get home cause the first time u drive it the coolest feeling, I neaver driven a 5.0 mustang motor and had a better experance and the best thing is the car got 20t miles in the city with just a GT-40 cam and 3.83 gears. If that doesn't convience u to do this set up than I want to know what your smoken cause so I can stay away LOL.:burnout:
My google search is showing me that the "GT-40 cams" you're talking about are regular, old alphabet cams dude? B303 & E303 cams. That's what FMS is listing as being used in the GT40 crate motor. I know I can do better than an alphabet cam. That's old technology there.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88TurboCoupeman01 on July 28, 2008, 10:42:38 PM
Well the guy told me it had a t-40 cam and I could tell it had a cam in it so I don't sorry guys.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: Innes on July 28, 2008, 11:30:40 PM
Any mild cam should work your pistons have the valve reliefs in them, just check w/us first. When you call they are going to cautiously tell you to always check PtV clearance for the safe side nomatter what. That’s what they told me w/a stock HO motor but then I put on bigger GT40 heads milled .040 off them w/a .039 head gasket. I never checked. Picking my motor/machine shops mind he told me I have plenty of room.
Heres my set up http://foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=17223
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: Carpimp1987 on July 29, 2008, 01:44:18 AM
I don't know anything except i am gonna Try it in my 5.0 HO T-Bird and get some gt40 heads and a few more extras like a typhoon intake which looks close to a Explorer Intake and hope that it all works like it says and that it might be a good set-up.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: kingcars on July 29, 2008, 02:17:22 AM
There are plenty of guys putting down 250hp to the rear wheels with a stock HO cam, GT40P heads, Explorer intake, and 1.7 roller rockers. You may be interested in my engine build; click on the 270rwhp project link in my sig below, or you can also follow my thread on the Corral:
I'm basically building a GT40 setup for my car; should propel me to mid 13s.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 29, 2008, 01:15:37 PM
I'm basically running an Explorer motor with a cam in it in my car. I have no complaints, except that it requires a higher stall torque converter, and bigger rear tires, all of which I haven't gotten yet:hick:
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: CougarSE on July 29, 2008, 05:32:18 PM
Victor I'm running an Explorer motor in my car. It has valve reliefs in the pistons.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 29, 2008, 06:46:11 PM
Unless you're gonna run a wild, long, duration cam, the valve to piston clearance is BS... Clearance should be similar if not same as a HO...
Put the Stage 1 Trick Flow cam in it(what I run)... It will have a little lope at idle(likes 900-1000 rpm), and pull like crazy from 3000-6000 rpms... You'll also need a Mass Air Setup and at least a 2400 Stall converter(a 3000-3200 is better)
If that's too wild for you, go with the stock HO cam... For the money you'd spend on something slightly better, you can buy 1.7 roller rockers...
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88TurboCoupeman01 on July 29, 2008, 08:31:50 PM
Blue Thunder So what u going to do.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 29, 2008, 10:25:25 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;229706
Unless you're gonna run a wild, long, duration cam, the valve to piston clearance is BS... Clearance should be similar if not same as a HO...
Put the Stage 1 Trick Flow cam in it(what I run)... It will have a little lope at idle(likes 900-1000 rpm), and pull like crazy from 3000-6000 rpms... You'll also need a Mass Air Setup and at least a 2400 Stall converter(a 3000-3200 is better)
If that's too wild for you, go with the stock HO cam... For the money you'd spend on something slightly better, you can buy 1.7 roller rockers...
How hard is that stage 1 cam to live with on the street Tom? Are there times when you wish you would have gone with a little milder cam than that?
To clue everyone in on the set-up I'm going to try to work towards, I've already got an 88 TC, so I've got 3.73's out back. Thanks to guidance from Claude, I also got my hands on a recently rebuilt AOD out of a Super Coupe. Claude told me that the AOD's they put in Super Coupes were stronger than the AOD's in Fox's, becaus eof the SC's higher horsepower. I plan to run a lock-up converter with a stall of around 2,400-2,600 rpm's.
For a cam, I'm kind of torn between going with a TFS stage 1 like Tom suggested and an XE 266 like Thunderjet is running. Is the general consensus here that a stage 1 TFS cam will be a ton of fun on the street as long as I run the right converter with it? I have no doubts that an XE 266 would be a blast. Just a little milder than a stage 1.
Thanks again guys for all the great feedback.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: kingcars on July 29, 2008, 10:51:29 PM
I rode in a 5.0 swapped Volvo that had a GT40 setup and was running a cam similar to the Comp XE258, and that thing has a lot of bottom end. For a street car, having a 3,000-6,000rpm band is pretty high. You want more like 1,500-5,500. Go for somethin like the XE258 or XE264, or just keep the stock HO cam.
Title: Hey Kingcars
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 29, 2008, 10:59:39 PM
I read that thread you posted a link to, but didn't see what cam you settled on. Which one did you end up going with?
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 29, 2008, 11:05:23 PM
Quote from: 88TurboCoupeman01;229730
Blue Thunder So what u going to do.
Since I don't even have the GT-40 engine yet, I've got time to figure out what I'm going to do. I've got a lot of homework to do before I have any business making any firm decision on which cam will be my best bet.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: kingcars on July 29, 2008, 11:08:32 PM
Quote from: Blue Thunder;229785
I read that thread you posted a link to, but didn't see what cam you settled on. Which one did you end up going with?
Well, depends on the money I have. Right now I'm planning on keeping the stock HO cam with the 1.7 roller rockers I just got. If I end up having extra money at the end of the project, I may pick up a Crower 15511 for cheap off of Corral; it's power band does seem a little high, but from what I hear it's the best speed density cam. I can always advance it a few degrees too.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 29, 2008, 11:22:17 PM
Quote from: kingcars;229790
Well, depends on the money I have. Right now I'm planning on keeping the stock HO cam with the 1.7 roller rockers I just got. If I end up having extra money at the end of the project, I may pick up a Crower 15511 for cheap off of Corral; it's power band does seem a little high, but from what I hear it's the best speed density cam. I can always advance it a few degrees too.
I saw where a couple of guys were telling you to install that Crower cam straight-up to keep your SD happy.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 30, 2008, 08:08:53 AM
Quote from: Blue Thunder;229772
How hard is that stage 1 cam to live with on the street Tom? Are there times when you wish you would have gone with a little milder cam than that? .
IF it's a daily driver I'd go with a little milder cam, but for a fun ride/weekend warrior(like mine), it's great... Go with a 2800 or so stall, you'll smile...
I've been on a trip(Cat Jam '02) through DE, MD, PA, across OH almost to IN, and back home through WV, had a blast... With the 3.73s, it never once hunted in and out of OD going up the mountains... Set the cruse and roll...
Over near Dayton, a guy on a Harley heard me fire it up after getting gas and said "that don't sound like no 4cyl"... Showed him my wares, he was duly impressed, especially seeing I'd drove it from VA...
Quote from: kingcars;229780
I For a street car, having a 3,000-6,000rpm band is pretty high. You want more like 1,500-5,500.
[/B]
If you're looking for something at pulls at 1500 RPM, keep the stock cam...
The 308 Bird I had with Iron Windsor Jr's, stock HO cam, BBK shorties, full 2 1/2" exhaust system and 3.55s didn't impress me... Sure it was peppy, but my TF headed/cam, 2600 stall & 3.73 gears would slaughter it... It did have a stock converter, but still, didn't pull anything like my TC...
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 30, 2008, 10:42:00 AM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;229833
The 308 Bird I had with Iron Windsor Jr's, stock HO cam, BBK shorties, full 2 1/2" exhaust system and 3.55s didn't impress me... Sure it was peppy, but my TF headed/cam, 2600 stall & 3.73 gears would slaughter it... It did have a stock converter, but still, didn't pull anything like my TC...
See now Tom, that's what I'm talking about. I absolutely hate the idea of going too conservative on my cam choice, and ending up with a car that's just "peppy." I'm not putting this car together to be just "peppy." I'm putting it together so I can have something that's really fun to drive. I want this car to really get MY motor running when I stomp on the pedal down there that's furthest to the right. :burnout:
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: V8Demon on July 30, 2008, 10:55:40 AM
Been driving my TFS-1 cammmed car as it sits now for a little over 2 years.....2800 stall that actually stalls @ 2800....Basically it's the same setup as Tom with slightly less gear (3.27's) and I weigh less. Runs like a top and for a while i did daily drive it with no real issues....Pulls HARD on stock and slightly modded V8 equipped S-197's
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 30, 2008, 05:33:16 PM
Quote from: Blue Thunder;229772
For a cam, I'm kind of torn between going with a TFS stage 1 like Tom suggested and an XE 266 like Thunderjet is running. Is the general consensus here that a stage 1 TFS cam will be a ton of fun on the street as long as I run the right converter with it? I have no doubts that an XE 266 would be a blast. Just a little milder than a stage 1.
I'm not running the XE266 I'm running the Magnum 266 ;)
As for the 266 vs the Stage 1 the Stage 1 is the way you want to go if you're going to be doing a lot of racing (legal or otherwise). It also depends on how fast you want to go. The best I've turned in my 3700 T-bird is a 15.0@94. HOWEVER the car should be running a 14.4-14.5 et with that trap speed. The problem is that I have shiznitty tires (stock 215 size that spin 60+ feet down the track because i can't drive:mullet: ) and the trans needs a 2600 stall converter. So basically the question is how fast do you want to go? Once you answer that you can decide on a cam choice.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: CougarSE on July 30, 2008, 06:23:52 PM
Victor I'm glad you are back to working on your car! Have to meet up sometime soon.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: kingcars on July 30, 2008, 07:54:48 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;229833
If you're looking for something at pulls at 1500 RPM, keep the stock cam...
The 308 Bird I had with Iron Windsor Jr's, stock HO cam, BBK shorties, full 2 1/2" exhaust system and 3.55s didn't impress me... Sure it was peppy, but my TF headed/cam, 2600 stall & 3.73 gears would slaughter it... It did have a stock converter, but still, didn't pull anything like my TC...
I've been lookin at the comp XE cams (XE258 and XE264) and they both have nice, low power bands. The XE258 has a band of 1,300-5,300 which is perfect for what I want, but I'm not sure how SD friendly it is. Besides, guys are running easy mid 13s with my setup and stock HO cam.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 30, 2008, 11:28:42 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;229884
I'm not running the XE266 I'm running the Magnum 266 ;)
As for the 266 vs the Stage 1 the Stage 1 is the way you want to go if you're going to be doing a lot of racing (legal or otherwise). It also depends on how fast you want to go. The best I've turned in my 3700 T-bird is a 15.0@94. HOWEVER the car should be running a 14.4-14.5 et with that trap speed. The problem is that I have shiznitty tires (stock 215 size that spin 60+ feet down the track because i can't drive:mullet: ) and the trans needs a 2600 stall converter. So basically the question is how fast do you want to go? Once you answer that you can decide on a cam choice.
I most definitely want to be faster than running in the 14's. It's looking like a TFS stage 1 cam WILL be my best bet to get what I'm looking for.
Not long ago, I had a '00 Pontiac WS6. After driving that car, I know I'd be bored driving a 14 second car since the WS6 I had ran in the low 13's stock. Because of the torque-curve of that darn LS1 engine, it didn't give me much of a seat of the pants thrill. I always thought it's acceleration was too smooth. While it was definitely fast, it didn't give me that hard pull that really tells you you're getting somewhere. Oh sure, I could SEE the acceleration, but I really couldn't FEEL the acceleration. I always hated that. The feel of being pushed back into the seat is why people buy cars like that in the first place. The feeling of being pushed back into the seat is what I'm after. That's what makes a car fun to me. Obviously torque is what gives you that sensation. With my 3.73 gears and a good converter like the one Tom and Demon are talking about, I'm sure I'd be happy with the pull.
While the set-ups Tom and V8Demon run are most likely a little quicker than my WS6 was, I'm sure they have a much better fun-factor than my WS6, because of how they FEEL under acceleration.
Anyway... I'm still in the process of getting the money together for all these goodies. I'm undoubtedly still a while away from getting my Bird up and running, but I am working on getting the parts together for it.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 30, 2008, 11:31:07 PM
Quote from: CougarSE;229898
Victor I'm glad you are back to working on your car! Have to meet up sometime soon.
Hey Claude. I meant to call you today, but I worked kind of late. You're right. We're definitely going to have to get together, so we can get caught up. I want to see your cars man. Do you think you have enough? I mean you've only got three of 'em now. :hick:
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 31, 2008, 02:48:44 PM
Quote from: Blue Thunder;229978
I most definitely want to be faster than running in the 14's. It's looking like a TFS stage 1 cam WILL be my best bet to get what I'm looking for.
Not long ago, I had a '00 Pontiac WS6. After driving that car, I know I'd be bored driving a 14 second car since the WS6 I had ran in the low 13's stock. Because of the torque-curve of that darn LS1 engine, it didn't give me much of a seat of the pants thrill. I always thought it's acceleration was too smooth. While it was definitely fast, it didn't give me that hard pull that really tells you you're getting somewhere. Oh sure, I could SEE the acceleration, but I really couldn't FEEL the acceleration. I always hated that. The feel of being pushed back into the seat is why people buy cars like that in the first place. The feeling of being pushed back into the seat is what I'm after. That's what makes a car fun to me. Obviously torque is what gives you that sensation. With my 3.73 gears and a good converter like the one Tom and Demon are talking about, I'm sure I'd be happy with the pull.
While the set-ups Tom and V8Demon run are most likely a little quicker than my WS6 was, I'm sure they have a much better fun-factor than my WS6, because of how they FEEL under acceleration.
Anyway... I'm still in the process of getting the money together for all these goodies. I'm undoubtedly still a while away from getting my Bird up and running, but I am working on getting the parts together for it.
If you really want to go as fast as your old LS1 car I would bypass the iron GT40s all together and go with a nice set of aluminium heads and a good cam. Check here: sbftech.com for all the info you ever wanted to know about building a small block ford to run 13s or much faster ;)
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 31, 2008, 08:28:31 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;229884
The best I've turned in my 3700 T-bird is a 15.0@94.
HOWEVER the car should be running a 14.4-14.5 et with that trap speed.
Keep in mind in 50* weather, on a set of some what sticky 225/50/60 Michelin street radials, I've pulled a 1.90 60ft(surprised the shiznit out of me too) and run 13.11@105.3, that's at 3760 lbs (including me)... In 75* weather it will run 13.3@104... Those times were running a short belt bypassing the smog pump and P/S... Since, it's run a 8.40 in the 1/8 which was quicker than the half track time(8.42) it turned on the 13.11 run... This was with the P/S in operation and smog pump tossed in the weeds... With DRs my best short is 1.91, so in actuality my best NA 60ft is on street tires...
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on July 31, 2008, 09:50:40 PM
You're running aluminum TFS heads aren't you Tom?
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 31, 2008, 10:05:08 PM
Quote from: Blue Thunder;230086
You're running aluminum TFS heads aren't you Tom?
Yup...
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on August 01, 2008, 12:54:29 AM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;230081
Keep in mind in 50* weather, on a set of some what sticky 225/50/60 Michelin street radials, I've pulled a 1.90 60ft(surprised the shiznit out of me too) and run 13.11@105.3, that's at 3760 lbs (including me)... In 75* weather it will run 13.3@104... Those times were running a short belt bypassing the smog pump and P/S... Since, it's run a 8.40 in the 1/8 which was quicker than the half track time(8.42) it turned on the 13.11 run... This was with the P/S in operation and smog pump tossed in the weeds... With DRs my best short is 1.91, so in actuality my best NA 60ft is on street tires...
I'd be happy with mid, to low 13's. While I'd have to start out with the GT-40P heads that the GT-40 engine I want to get has, I can always buy some TFS heads like you're running later on.
In our cars, what headers do you guys recommend that will bolt up to 40P heads with their funky spark plug arrangement? I know FMS shorties are supposed to work with 40P heads, but is there a long-tube that will work? Are the long-tubes what most of you guys are running for their better performance?
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: rancheronut on August 01, 2008, 01:39:38 AM
on my 1980 fairmont wagon i had. i installed a COMPLETE EFI 1995 5.0 -5 speed, four wheel disc brake cobra drive train with some GT40 PARTS for fun. i had 1994/95 mustang standard BBK chrome shorty with the mandrel-bent 2-1/2 H-PIPE and summit dynomax super turbo ler and mandrel-bent 2-1/2 mustang LX tail pipes. IT made 275 hp at the wheel at 5800rpms. talk about the greatest sleeper.a after installing GT40 installed parts was like going from the dating your sister to coming home with the prom QWEEN. yes it is worth every pennie i put to install the GT40 EXTRA. the only thing i regret is having to selling that wagon.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on August 02, 2008, 01:13:12 PM
It sounds like that combo worked out well for you Rancheronut. My whole problem as far as headers arre concerned, is the fact that I'm running an AOD. There are tons of posts about which long-tube headers will fit P heads on a 5-speed Fox car, but when you're running an AOD like me and want to run LT's, it looks like you're screwed! I guess I'll have to just stick to FRPP shorties then.
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: Kitz Kat on August 02, 2008, 03:36:04 PM
Quote from: Blue Thunder;230261
It sounds like that combo worked out well for you Rancheronut. My whole problem as far as headers arre concerned, is the fact that I'm running an AOD. There are tons of posts about which long-tube headers will fit P heads on a 5-speed Fox car, but when you're running an AOD like me and want to run LT's, it looks like you're screwed! I guess I'll have to just stick to FRPP shorties then.
Are you running a colume shifter? If your not you can run long tubes,It just takes a little work.If you got the P heads you can change the spark plug to a shorty ,and angle boots on the wires!
Title: Is a GT40 5.0 worth the trouble?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on August 02, 2008, 07:38:52 PM
Quote from: kitzdnm;230286
Are you running a colume shifter? If your not you can run long tubes,It just takes a little work.If you got the P heads you can change the spark plug to a shorty ,and angle boots on the wires!
Luckily, my car is floor-shifted. What type of work are you talking about having to be done? Steering column finessing?