i was putting the electrics back together in my 88tc and as i put the positive terminal on the battery the wires on the positive side of the terminal started smoking(big yellow, red/orange stripe wires). i dont have a lot of things hooked but i think i missed a ground? would this happen if things under the dash arent connected? the steering column is out and all those wires are obviously disconnected.
Sounds like a short some where or the battery in backwards...
Disconnected circuits will NOT cause such a problem....
the battery is hooked up correctly...i have a short somewhere. i completely gutted the engine bay and completely removed the dash in an attempt to clean up the bay...the car ran before i did that so i know i've done something stupid. The positive battery cable is hooked directly to the solenoid. One negative cable goes from the battery post to the block, then to a ground, then to the 2 pr0ng connector. The other negative cable goes from the starter to the negative side of the solenoid. On the positive solenoid i have the 2 small connectors attached( all the fusible links) and of course the small push on connector is attached( i marked the posts before i removed them). With both the battery cables hooked up, as soon as i hook up the wire bundle with the lg yellow, sm yellow and red wire/orange stripe it arcs.
I Ohms checked the wires coming off it and they checked normal (.o4 or so). i'm kinda stumped on this one.
IF you're getting .04 ohm to ground on the yellow wire with everything off, you have one Hellacious short...
Here"s how I would trouble shoot it:
Buy yourself a test light, They're cheap.
Remove the negative battery cable from the battery.
Hook the test light between the cable and the neg battery post.
You won't be cooking the wires with this setup.
Isolate the wires one at a time from the solenoid to see which one lights the light.
If more than one, follow the one that lights it the brightest.
Do you have EVTM wiring diagrams?
I ohms checked the wires from one end to the other with my Fluke meter, I didnt check them to ground. O.L would mean a broken wire and low to zero would mean a short to ground?? I will get the exact ohms reading tonight. It was a long weekend...I put the entire drivetrain in this weekend(putting in a t-5 by yourself was a lot easier when i was 25) plus hooked up all the wiring, radiator, power steering, etc. By the time i hooked the battery up to check electrics I was pretty frazzled. Keep in mind the steering column isn't hooked up.
Soft touch i could use those wiring diagrams please, thanks. I have a haynes manual and it's weak. I will try your method tonight. The thing is with those wires is that they are all hooked together via a fusible link...do i prick each one with a paperclip and touch it to the positive side of the solenoid?
What ground wire do you have connected to the solenoid??? The solenoid grounds through where it's bolted to the car and shouldn't be grounded to anything else.
it's the negative cable going to the starter. I moved the solenid under the fender well, which your question just jogged another possibility. I secured it with 2 screws so it should be grounded but i'll double check that tonight also. thanks.
Negative cable going to the starter???
Neg cable connects to the block and that's how the starter gets it's ground...
Here is my setup--I have 2 "negative" cables. one is a big funky thing with the battery terminal, a small ground, a connecor for the block and a plug that goes into the wiring harness. The other cable goes from the negative side starter solenoid to the starter. Sorry if i wrote it confusingly. Did I do that wrong?! I took a bunch of digital pics to help me remember how to put things back together but apparently that wasnt one of them.:D
There is no negative side on the starter solenoid... Positive connects to it and is fed down the cable to the starter... No there isn't voltage on it(except when cranking) and will measure low resistance to ground due to the internal resistance of the starter, but it is never ground...
rog, i always assumed pos and neg but i get it now. so the wires that are shorting on the solenoid...i traced all the wires and the heavy yellow ones that go to the rectangle connector on the steering column
are brownish an inch or so back from the connector and the plug looks melted...i'll try and post a pick. My thing is this connector wasnt even hooked up. How does that thing melt? i can only assume the two wires were grounded? does anyone have a schematic of the steering column wiring.....
It's probably the ignition switch connector, and melting is common in them (so is fire, so make sure you fix it AND install a new switch). Still, even if the connector is melted it shouldn't short out unless it's touching ground.
Does the insulation on any of the fuse links look like it got too hot?
If so, what color fuse link?
1. On the positive terminal of your solenoid you should have a yellow wire that's spliced to six fuse links.
2. You should also have a green fuse link that's spliced to three wires; a yellow, a yellow/white and a red/orange.
Is group #2 where the short is? If so is the instrument panel sitting where the ammeter may be shorted to ground?
it's group 2 and the instrument cluster is in the back seat. On group 1 there is a fusible link blown but it looks like it's been that way for some time, and i can hook up group 1 with no problem. i'm at work now but when i get home i will post a pic up. i didnt get a chance to work the test light method but i continuity checked all the wires in group 2 from the eyelet(disconnected from the solenoid of course) to their termination points. All the wires checked good for continuity( so i assume that means the fusible links are OK?). I then ohms checked each wire and got like .2 ohms which should be right as its just checking the wire itsself. (i have a fluke 77 so it's not a cheapo)
Check the wires to the alternator. Try disconnecting the wires from the alternator.
already did that...and the coil...no go:mad: do you know what number circuit breakers i need to pull to isolate all the wires going to that particular group of wires? if i pull them i might isolate which side of the fuse box he short is on.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vzetk5cc/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ChargePwr87Turbo.jpg)
Fuse link I is isolated by the ignition switch being out.
Fuse link H goes to fuses 4 8 16 & 12 and without going through a fuse to the main headlight switch. From the headlight switch (orange/white) to the autolamp relay.
Fuse link G goes the rear window defrost control (no fuse) on the RH side of the heater function control.
well i hooked up the test light in between the neg post and cable and of course it's glowing very brightly. I went so far as to pull every circuit breaker and it's still lit. i am disconnecting things under the dash, the headlight harness, still lighting up. All the suspect wires from the solenoid to the their plugs are reading .2Mega Ohms which i think a straight wire ought to( a short to ground should be high ohms right?) it's getting frustrating. the only thing i did different is to route the wire bundles under the fenders and there isnt any chaffing. i did rebuild the neg battery cable but it routes the same...i just had to make it into 2 pieces.
question... I Ohms checked the solenoid with no wires on it and it was out of limits(open), same for all the other wires except when I put the suspect wire bundle on.. i then get .2 Ohms...does that prove anything? it seems to show the one bundle is opening the solenoid?
I should have pointed out there are normal things that can light the light. Dome light because the door is open, Light under the hood etc.
But with all the fuses pulled they should be out of the picture.
I hope you are leaving things disconnected as you proceed and not plugging them back in. So with all the fuses out and the cable unplugged from the main headlight switch, the test light is still on.
Did you mean .2 Ohms? .2 Mega ohms is 200,000 Ohms.
I hope you are disconnecting the battery before using the Ohm meter.
When checking the resistance of a wire it must be isolated, not connected to anything else at one end. It should be a very low resistance. A ground will not affect the resistance of a wire from one end to the other.
A ground is a low resistance (dead short) between a +12v wire and ground. Ground being the chassis of the car or the engine block.
Have you checked the resistance of a suspect wire to ground?
?? Are you measuring from the battery side to the starter motor side of the solenoid? If so it should read open circuit. The contacts are only closed when you are running the starter motor.
If when you put the suspect wire on the battery side of the solenoid and the resistance across the solenoid goes to .2 Ohms, you are looking at the problem.
The motor side is close to ground because of the low resistance through the motor.
Why don't you measure from the suspect wire to the chassis and see what you get?
Both the doors are open, didnt even think about that. i will disable them and see if that helps. The hood is off so that shouldnt play. I didnt leave everything disco'd...I pulled one cb and put it back after the light test.
As far as the solenoid goes i measured from the two copper cable posts...battery and starter. it was open until i attached the bundle of wires shorting the circuit and then it opened up to .2 ohms.
I measured each wire as a straight shot.... .2 ohms....very low.
Do you mean by "you are looking at the problem" that the solenoid is bad or for sure there is something grounding out in the wire bundle to? it seems odd with the battery disconnected that hooking up a wire bundle would open a solenoid. Also, I noticed when i hook up the other wire bundle on the battery solenoid it goes from 25mega Ohms up to 31 mega ohms then it just goes to O.L on the meter. i guess there is a small amount of juice in the circuit it's bleeding off? Not sure.
I will check the wires to ground tonight.
You are just confusing yourself with the ohm meter. Put it aside for now and use the test light.
1. Leave the yellow wire OFF the solenoid.
2. Leave the green fuse link ON the solenoid.
3. Remove fuses 4 8 12 16 and leave them all out.
4. Unplug cable from the main headlight switch, leave unplugged.
5. Unplug cable from rear window defrost control, leave unplugged.
6. Disconnect all wires from the alternator, leave disconnected.
7. Make sure the instrument cluster connectors are not touching anything.
8. Are there any non-stock wires spliced in anywhere?
Does the test light still come on?
yes:beatyoass: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
sorry... getting pissed off and i know that doesnt help.
The reason for having everything disconnected at once is in case there is more than one short to ground. We don't want to give Murphy's Law an opening.
With everything disconnected as suggested in post #23 and only the battery cable and the green fuse link on the solenoid it's time to start cutting some wires.
Right click on the wiring diagram in post #19 and print it.
Is the alternator close enough to the solenoid that you can physically check the wires from end to end? If so we shouldn't have to cut them.
Hook up your test light and we will see which wire will turn it off.
Follow the green fuse link from the solenoid to splice S261. Cut the red/orange wire that goes to the ammeter. Do not cut the yellow wire, this is the meter shunt and we don't want to screw it up.
Go down the harness to splice s262. Cut the yellow/light green wire that goes to the ammeter.
Go to the end of the black fuse links. The one with the black/orange wire goes to the fuse panel. Cut it.
Then cut the yellow wires on the other fuse links.
When you cut the wire that turns off the light, reconnect previously cut wires to see if any will turn the light back on.
ok...getting real close. I snipped all the wires and no go. I then sniped the 2 alternator wires... no go. I had the blk/orange wire going to ground on the fenderwell, as soon as i removed that...light out. Please tell me that it goes to the Pos side of the solenoid. if so what a dumb:shakeass: the one thing i didnt photograph was the wiring for the solenoid.
Look at the diagram in post #9 and you will see that the black/orange wire should have gone to the alternator output.
Grounding it does ground out the positive terminal of the solenoid.
i see it now. Thanks a million softtouch, the light tip was superb. i think i'll keep it hooked up as i put the rest of the dash together.:bowdown:
okay, i am ready to start the car, i re-pinned a new pigtail on the ignition switch and replaced the switch its self. with the test light hooked up the light does not come on. i am a bit gunshy now so i turned the key to the on position(not start) and the light comes on, same goes for when i put the key in Aux position. i just want to make sure this is Okay before i try to start it as i dont want to burn it to the ground...my wife might get upset.
I think that is normal but I have never tried it. I will do it on my car tomorrow and see what happens.
Yep, light on in both RUN and AUX.
sweet, just gotta doublecheck everything add some gas and turn the key.:D
okay...i turned the key and everything lights up. the fuel pump primes and the black box(forgot the name of it) near the VAM clicks...but the starter wont hit when i turn the key. I have just done a t-5 swap so I am sure it's the neutral safety switch, but i dont know which wires to look for to connect to. i plugged in the 2 wire connector just above the speedo cable but the round 6 pin connector from the a4ld is still hanging not connected. is there anything in that connector i need?
i have i connector (2 red wires/black stripes) and another (2 black wires) that are the clutch and brake i believe and i cant find homes for them. there is a 3rd connector(under dash) with 3 wires orange/blk, blue/yellow, and yellow/red that i also cant find a home for. softtouch, could i possibly "borrow" a page from you manual again.:D
Here ya go.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vzetk5cc/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Start2.3.jpg)
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vzetk5cc/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Start2.3-2.jpg)
dude, what kind of book is that? where can i get one?
ITS ALIVE!!!!!!!! woohoo.:D :D :D :D :D thanks for the help.
The book is called an EVTM (Electrical & Vacuum Troubleshooting Manual). It is one of the Ford shop manuals.
This one is the '87 version compliments of jcassity who distributed copies on CD.
They show up on E-Bay from time to time.