1990 ford bronco 351w EFI with 5speed (formerly e4od)
battery 1- old and replaced
battery 2- went in last nov
this battery confussed me often as such when the bronco sat for periods of time, i would have to roll start it. recently the battery got so bad that you could not even roll start it due to the power being so low that the eec relay would not even energize.
Battery3-went in about feb
I thought about this long and hard and decided to trade it in because this battery also read as shorted.
battery 4-Replaced battery a month ago with a DEKA brand which started the truck up fine. Now its dead.
here is what i have done during the period between battery 3 and 4
METER CHECKS
KOER- alt shows about 13.9v, battery shows 13.7vdc, no AC voltage present that i saw. This is a .2v drop on the harness to battery. I do not really have anythig telling me the alternator is bad but perhaps i should follow my own advice and swap batt and the alt as a matched set.
clamp on ammeter with everythng on possible shows about 44amps on pos battery cable.
Checked out various wring in the truck for wiring problems. took door panels off and disconnected power door locks becaue they have not really be functional at all.
Checked power window switches because the pass will roll down by the pass sw but not up. The driver has to send the window up.
checked the rear window retract wiring by taking the panel off and working the window up and down checking for wires that may be rubbing.
with the key off after a good hard run on the engine, the battery shows about 12.4v.
If i leave it alone for a couple days, the battery will read 10.xx vdc
with my voltmeter connected to the battery attended to by a helper, i begin to pull one fuse at a time. I do this thinking the one who monitors the battery voltage reading will say,, "scott, i think the voltage is starting to climb". If this happened, that would tell me i have identified the circuit that is loadind the battery down.
I also checked the radio for issues and unhooked the power to it hoping to hear my helper say "the battery voltage is increasing"
The above never happened.
when i have enough power to restart, i do so and shut off the truck. upon shutdown, the battery will loose about a 10th of a volt across 15 -30 min so it makes for a difficult problem to isolate.
In a nutshell, the discharge is so small that it takes 3-4 days and the battery will be dead.
Im looking for any tricks to check for a trickle type drain on the battery and isolate the problem.
I am hopeful it is a faulty relay that is not fully cutting off when the key is off.
two days ago, the battery was again so dead that we could not even roll start it. Just a slight boost of a few seconds from a jump start yields enough power to let it run on its own.
I wont even begin to try and pull codes at this time because im sure the KAP portion of the eec will be more than happy to mess with my head.
My point here is i would like to know any tricks anyone here has used for a slow drain.
My next test is to isolate circuits at the fuse link ciruits by disconnecting individual wires at the solenoid and let time take its course.
You know, just the other day, I started my car, shut it off and the fuel pump was still running. Had to jiggle the key in the ignition to get it to shut off. Have you checked yours, mabe its leaving something on.
instead of monitoring voltage during this procedure, try checkin for amperage draw.
Connect a ammeter in series with the neg batt cable and see how much current it's pulling when EVERYTHING is off... I believe something like 50ma is acceptable(for the electrically challenged, that's .05 amp)... If it's higher, start disconnecting circuits till you find the current drain...
The memory circuit in the OEM Ford radios is a common culprit... Also a slightly "leaky" diode in the alternator can cause the same...
try the fuse pulling test again. Only this time have the meter setup show amp draw. Then use the meter wired in line from the pos cable to the pos term on the batt. You should see that there is so much amps going thru the meter. Then as you pull the fuses there should be a drop in amps until you get to 0. It does sound like that you alt is bad and is draining the bat. Disconnect the alt wiring and see it that makes any difference. Sorry I replied before I read the other post Oh well
Amp meter in series with the negative battery cable is a good idea if you are very careful.
If while you have the meter set up to moniter a small current , you do something to cause a high current, you can zap the meter.
A safer way is to hook a test light between the disconnected negative battery cable and the battery. If the it lights, too much drain. If you do something to cause a higher current it lights brighter.
Not a bad thought, BUT you need to have a idea of the current demand of the lamp... Something on the order of 100-150ma would be good...Unfortunately, I believe even something like a #194 draws twice that amount...
On second thought a #194 lamp in SERIES with the meter would serve as protection for the meter... Of course a
good meter will have a overload circuit or fuse to protect it...
I should qualify my suggestion by saying if the drain is enough to light the light, that is the way to go. Otherwise it's back to the meter.
My daughter had a GEO Metro about 10 years ago that took 4 days of sitting to run the battery down. It was drawing 10 times the current it should have. 500ma instead of 50ma. I finally tracked down to a "safety" module under the dash that controlled the chimes, locking it in park until you pushed the brake and operating the automatic seat belts.
or a little LED , they draw .3 to .6v and if there is more than that,, i suppose blowing it tells me i have current,,,lol
Im going to boost the battery and repeat the test.
My test light is not homemade. Don't know what bulb it has in it.
If I ground out the positive battery it lights.
If I open the door to turn on the dome light the test light lights.
BUT they don't draw enough current... A led will light on just 2-3ma and would light on the NORMAL 50 ma draw... In fact I'd figure you'd fry the LED, as they require a current limiting resistor...
Wouldn't be a bad idea to test current draw of your light with a ammeter...
I always have heard best way is to pull fuses one by one to see what happens.
That would be all well and good if you have about 3 - 4 solid days to stand around waiting to see. The results of pulling each fuse were not instantanious so it was difficult to isolate. using the test light worked out perfect.
Progress
I got to thinking about this whole,, if the draw is too small to light a big bulb,, ect ect.
I went out and pulled out of the box one of my fresh napa bulbs for illuminating the dash headlamp switch. Now folks,, thats a tiny bulb.
I went out today and proceeded to redo everything i did before.
I pulled all the wires off the primary side of the solenoid.
I decided that if there is a draw, I will see sparks from the battery cable to one or more of the secondary feeds.
I did!!!
I found that there were minor sparks when the larger yellow wire was touched to the battery wire. This could be one of two things:
My EEC KAP
or
My problem!!
Moving forward,, the larger test light bulb i had there in the third pic did not light up so i went with a very very small bulb. I use that larger one for injector blink testing or pulling codes ,, i use a buzzer now for codes though instead of the bulb.
when i connected it up as shown, the bulb glowed (pic 2).
I had to jam the door switches to simulate the doors being closed.
so,, with nothing on and both doors closed, this little bulb was happy to glow just a wee bit although the photo makes it appear it was more.
Now, to isolate the exact circuit,,,,,,
pulling one fuse at a time i was able to isolate things down to Fuse 8 on the bronco. Fuse 8 is dome, courtisy, radio, glove box.
I proceeded to isolate so i disconnected both door switches,, light still on.
I disconnected the dome light harness,, light still on.
I held off on disconnecting the rear hatch access harness because the radio was just too easy to get to.
I unhooked the radio and light goes off as the picture shows in pic 3.
so,,,,,, that little shiny metal box that dangles off the radio,, perhaps a filter or something must have something going a little wrong on the inside. It was just a tiny bit warm but i suppose that may have been my current draw.
Assembled things back together and drove the truck for a while. we will see how the next couple days go to see if it starts.
to be continued but i think its solved.
below is the problem i believe:D
time for a new cd player.
This was difficult to figure out just by using the meter. Unfortunatly, i no longer have a meter that is not "clamp on" so i had no option but to substitute in a bulb. I was determined to make some real progress on this problem today so hopefully this is it.
when we gut things here in west virginia, we like to hang em up first,,lol
Time to stop at Harbor Freight ad pick up 3-4 of those cheap Chinese meters when they are on sale for $2.99... Yeah I know you don't buy that stuff, but with a global economy it ain't going away...
A big plus is when you smoke one, it just goes in the can and you have a extra set of test leads...
Didn't I mention radio in my 1st post??? Can't say I've seen a aftermarket unit screw up, but have seen two OEMs with a similar problem...
Maybe for the shade tree mechanic, but I can guarantee a well trained tech uses a ammeter or at least a light he knows approx what the approx current draw is by the brightness of the bulb...
i use to have a fluke77 that i could arrange the leads and put the meter in line. Both of my Ideal ones have clamp on for ac and dc current.
when i saw the light glow, i thought,,humm,, theres a load so lets see what the voltage is if i put my volt meter in series with the battery cable and the large yellow wire.
Meter was fluxuating but holding about 7vdc. I shouldve clamped on to the lead and found out what the current draw was with the bulb glowing. I suppose doing that at the time really did nothing for the problem and felt rather useless. Last time I did this whole episode,, i clamped on to the battery pos and it was showing a draw less than an amp so I knew it right then it was going to be a pita to find.
Yep,, you did say radio,,nailed it from 300 miles away:bowdown:
Maybe i should have unplugged the radio a long time ago. At the time on the last go around with this issue, unhooking the radio showed no real useful results that stood out from anything else i did.
I found a socket for that lil bulb and made it into a tool from now on since the bulb will glow with such low current.
BTW,, bronco just started right up like nothing ever happened.
thanks everyone.
Here's one of those $2.99 meters reading a current draw of 1.33ma or .00133A(was testing a old tube)... Even has a 1A fuse for protection, but can still be smoked... Yes I have a extra set of test leads... But to it's credit I got that one tangled up in some 2KV RF working on a old oscilloscope... Not likely you'll have occasion in automotive work to try one on 2000V...
This meter and a $300('84) Simpson 467 digital meter I have, generally agree within a half of percent of each other... Glad I wasn't using the old Simpson when I got careless on the 2KV...
I had an Sony head unit screw up a few years ago. Took a while to figure out.
Must be 40 years since Ive seen a tube tester.
Well Dayum, it's your lucky day... I got lots of em'...
The B&K 707 was mfg'd in '72, picked it up a couple months ago at a old electronics whse for $25... In it's condition they regularly sell on ebay for 10X that amount(no I ain't planning on selling it)...
The Precision 912 was mfg in late '39... It's restored and works fine...
true, but i dont bother with those meters, they piss me off.
If it can be done simple and free why do it any other way?
Just have am amperage gauge hooked to the battery and start puling fuses, when it stops going down you have a winner! I have to do it to my stang, it drains the battery.
Amazing!! Back in the 50's every hardware store had one. It sat on top of the cabinet that held the new tubes. People would bring in all the tubes from their TV when they had problems.
I built a tube tester and a VTVM with Heathkits in 1955 I think it was.
I haven't seen a tube tester since I was a kid in my dads TV shop (mid 70s)
Got a Heathkit tube tester 'round here as well... And some Triplett's, a pristine '36 Supreme, in fact all totaled must have 30 or so... I lost count at 20(all my fingers and toes)... There's at least a half dozen CRT(picture tube) testers out there as well...
Have 3-4 VTVMs, 7 oscilloscopes(5 are newer solid state and the only ones that function)... Also have half dozen or so tube type signal generators... A couple Simpson digital meters, plus a 260 buttstuffogue and the competing version VOM Triplett marketed(forget it's model number)... Lessee, there's also a Fairly new Leader Stereo generator, a B&K frequency counter and one of the O'scopes has built in freq counter and volt/ohm meter functions...
Plus there are a couple dozen antique and small buttstuffog meters I haven't even counted, plus some transistor testers... The list just keeps going...
You running a museum?
Once you enter toms world,, you dont wanna leave. Real fun stuff to fidgit with laying around and stashed everywhere.
Nope, I fiddle/repair/restore old tube radios from the 20s to the 50s... Also have built a few mini AM transmitters(mostly when the O'scopes get a work out) to rebroadcast programs or music to play thru them... Also have 6-8 old tube TVs, one a 1950 model Philco is earmarked for a full resto, just not sure when I'll get to it...
Much of my goodies came from a deceased friends old TV shop... His wife called me and said come get what you want, as we're tearing down the building and it will all go in the dumpster... The left overs and building filled three construction dumpsters... The Precision 920 tube tester(on with the little VOM) was his regular bench tester till he closed the shop in the mid '80s... Basically he just closed the door and most everything was still as it was 20 years later...
Here Tom, you'll get a kick out of this (http://"http://eshop.macsales.com/item/TL%20Audio/FAT2000/") then. ;)
I don't have a I-poo...
Have one better anyway, mine's got 12 toobs... :hick:
(http://mysite.verizon.net/am_radio/12xmittfinal.jpg)
Mmmm, field controlled switches - love the glow :D
I just sold my Audio Research SP9 preamp which only had 2 tubes in it. I was shocked, I got more for the thing that what I paid for it 20 years ago!
Actually they are gas voltage regulators... The purple one is argon(I think), and is 150v, it's actually a bit more "pinkish" than the photo suggests... The orange one is neon and 75v... They are in series, so regulate a 225v voltage source...
:hick: Don't mind me, I speak in general terms :hick:
battery is dead again so obviously it was a good idea that i did not run over the head unit like i wanted to.
I moved further up the circuit and put the little bulb in line with the pos battery post and the positive battery cable.
with the key out and nothing on, the bulb lit up.
I unplugged the alternator output connector and the light went out. perhaps it is the voltage regulator or alternator itself.
Ill change that part and see what happens.
Ill play the waiting game again with a new alternator and see how it goes. The alternator is original but never gave me a sign of bad output.
Scott is that bulb the little #37 that is used in to light the switches and is also in the systems sentry???
its the bulb located at the thumb wheel adjustments for auto lamp/ auto lamp / headlamp switch.,, so yes is the answer to the question,, i think.
Yes they are #37...
Drum Roll... And for the skinny...
They draw approx 82ma at 12.2v & 90ma at 14.4v... So if you know what to expect, can make a very good indicator... Also they take 25ma(1.7v) to light one so it can be seen in dark conditions and 40ma(3.5v) to be seen in average room light...
BTW I tried it on my TC and the light comes on bright, then fades out completely... Checking with a meter indicated a 20.2ma draw...
Yeah,, i had similair results. The light will glow and when i unplug the alt, the light goes out. I replug the alt back and the bulb "charges up" and then slightly discharges but remains on.
Same results when i was pulling fuse 8,, I should have done the test at the battery in the first place. I did not have a chance to purchase an alternator today but soon.
if this does not fix this problem,, then I will truely feel challenged. Till now,, its been a pain in butt not to mention confussing.
My previous test showed the bulb went out when pulling fuse 8. I have to look up that large yellow wire and its far end termination becaue it may have been tied to the radio in some manner.
Its odd i unhook the alternator and it goes out as well as the radio. Granted, the light bulb was positioned differently in both instances but still, something does not feel right. I think i better look at the ignition circuit diagram of the ford bronco and double check the wiring layout. I dont want to find out later that its something else.
I did replace the ign switch down low on the steering column about 4 years ago (not the key switch) but for the life of me i cant remember why.
Yeah,, i think i need to trottle back a little and study the path of that large yellow wire on the starter solenoid. I suppose at this point it could only be the ign sw again or the alternator. I suppose i could shot gun the porblem with both parts new. I am getting pretty good at chasing my own tail on this problem so pop some pop corn.
:hick:
for you Seek