Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: V8Demon on March 31, 2008, 04:18:07 AM
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: V8Demon on March 31, 2008, 04:18:07 AM
Anybody heard anything on this?
http://www.bamafuel.com/catalog/index.php
Quote
Are you ready for the future? Welcome! You've reached the online catalog of BAMAFUEL, LLC. We build high quality fuel injection kits and complete bolt-on fuel injection systems. Our products are based on MegaSquirt, the fuel injection controller that is making waves in the automotive aftermarket. If you haven't heard of it before, where have you been hiding? This controller allows us to provide you fuel injection kits with a large number of powerful features at an unbeatable price.
If you are already familiar with MegaSquirt, you know that this controller has traditionally required that the installer have an above-average level of determination and be comfortable with wiring diagrams. Not anymore! Our kits are designed for easy installation and require no assembly or wiring. Just bolt it in and start tuning!
Currently, we have bolt-in kits available for all vehicles powered by the Ford 2.3 Turbo engine-- including the Mustang SVO, Thunderbird TurboCoupe, and Merkur XR4Ti. We also have kits available for the '86-'93 5.0L Mustang. Other products are in the works, including kits for '94-'95 Mustangs and '89-'93 Thunderbird Super Coupes. For more information and specifications, please feel free to browse through our catalog using the menu to the left.
If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to send an email to sales@bamafuel.com, and we'll get right back to you as quickly as possible. Thanks for stopping by!
And finally are they batch fire or multi port?
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: CatCarMan2012 on March 31, 2008, 09:10:58 AM
Bank Fire for V8.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: doodaa on March 31, 2008, 10:02:10 AM
Hmmm, email support only... doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy that they'll be there when Plug 'n' PLay doesn't.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: CatCarMan2012 on March 31, 2008, 11:11:02 AM
Megasquirt isin't know for its support. Its open source so your very much on your own. That being said, the megatune software does look fairly user friendly.
I am considering getting a MS just to mess with on the Coug, but that will have to wait till after some other purchases. From what I have read, getting it up and running at a py idle is the biggest hurdle. Once it can idle, you can start tweaking small things to get it to run well. After that, its street tuning. Which, if you read the documentation, sounds kinda tricky.
Switching to a CFI+MS setup would probably simplify your life quite substantially.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: booksix on March 31, 2008, 11:28:20 AM
this is true. the price you pay for MS doesn't fund support. this is why it's not for the novice; compared to something like painless efi which comes fully assembled and has support. You build MS, you wire it, you tune it. On the flip side, if you know what you're doing it leaves all those other systems in the dust...
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Carpimp1987 on March 31, 2008, 11:59:00 AM
I was looking at that for my old car looks good if you know how to bulid it.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: jcassity on March 31, 2008, 10:02:27 PM
Glens Garage (link in megasquirt) has turn key products.
You will get the complete wiring harness, simulator (to practice your settings), the MSII system. software and laptop interface connector.
The ****WHOLE**** MSII systems backbone is the O2 sensor and it will act as the fuel ratio manager.
sensors you need after MSII TPS ACT ECT MAP O2 dizzy TFI/stator Injectors (fires 4 at a time at an efficient PWM ratio based on 02 readings),, i suppose here is where you best know your settings pror to using it or you will foul your o2 readings from running too rich. ,,hence the reason for my wanting the simulator.
I am working with them currently on my TFI application but,,,,,,it appears i have lost touch. I was hopeful to have the simulator by now so i could practice my stoich settings and such. I just called Glen and gpt his home voice mail so if something does not happen in the next week or so, ill have to go with another vendor of MSII.
Also, Glen did say that this system could be modified to build in a DIS system vs doing TFI which was interesting.
The whole package was under 400 bux.
Now, i have no idea where my emails stand with this vendor but the next week or so may yield an update.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Chuck W on March 31, 2008, 10:13:05 PM
I have a MS1 on the Tbird built for TFI and will be converting it to DIS this season (wanted to have the car back on the road before I got into it). Did any 5.0's come with DIS? This is different than EDIS. DIS and TFI use the same input/output signals, while the EDIS is different. The EDIS and DIS also use different crank sensors/rings.
I used Glen's for most of my stuff when I did mine, but I hear alot of times that he gets behind these days, or is slow to follow up.
I have a couple more I want to build, but not sure who I'll buy parts from. I'll be building mine, so I have no need for "turn-key". I built the first as my very first electronics project, and I have no problem doing it again.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: jcassity on April 01, 2008, 12:05:55 AM
Quote from: Chuck W;211896
I have a couple more I want to build, but not sure who I'll buy parts from. I'll be building mine, so I have no need for "turn-key". I built the first as my very first electronics project, and I have no problem doing it again.
This is where you are miles ahead of me. I hope you can lend me an ear when i get this going.
Glen is behind, just got an email response from him by my calling a little while ago.
He says that DIS is not a difficult add on to the MS system, but i think it was for the MSII if i am correct.
My white coug is going to get these parts. First i need to install all the stuff i got off of tom and make it a normal 5.0 running motor,, still lacking the wiring harness. after all that is working, I will start the MS conversion.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Chuck W on April 01, 2008, 07:25:24 AM
Well that is what I asked....were any 5.0 ever available with DIS? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. If not, the trick will be finding the crank pulley with the proper hub to make it work. With EDIS you can add a 60-1 trigger wheel to just about any crank pulley, DIS doe not use that type.
DIS/TFI is not a difficult add to either MS1 or MS2. It is a different configuration if you want to do EDIS.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: V8Demon on April 01, 2008, 07:35:31 AM
This kit is designed to bolt right in to your '86-'93 5.0L Ford Mustang. This kit uses your stock coolant and air temperature sensors, and supports low impedance injectors. Out of the box, it can handle up to 24 psi of boost from a turbo or supercharger; if you need more, you can add a 4 bar MAP sensor which is good for up to 44 psi. This kit also eliminates the need for a mass airflow meter. Price: $599.99
The 4 bar MAP sensor is an additional $40.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Chuck W on April 01, 2008, 08:06:05 AM
That is just a "std" unit configured for a Ford with TFI, and most likely for the Ford sensors.
Nothing fancy, just all packaged in a nice drop in set-up. IIRC there is even a base tune installed on it, so getting it running isn't as big of a concern, and all that is left is to tune.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: V8Demon on April 01, 2008, 08:15:39 AM
Even for what I have planned, it probably aint worth it.....
Maybe to get thevery last little bit out of it, but You'd still need a wideband and a proper dynotune on a EEC-IV setup can find hidden power too...
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: jcassity on April 01, 2008, 09:03:40 AM
I cant think of any 5.0 with dis. The closest relative would be the 4.2 but that coil pack was just that, a single six pack.
Maybe a 4cyl engine DISx2 would be more applicable.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Red_LX on April 01, 2008, 09:37:49 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Explorer 5.0's have DIS for several years before they were killed off?
I was thinking about getting Megasquirt for my bird, but I'm not real confident with electronics.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Chuck W on April 01, 2008, 09:50:27 AM
Pretty sure it was EDIS.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Red_LX on April 01, 2008, 08:56:34 PM
What's the difference? :dunce:
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: jcassity on April 01, 2008, 09:12:13 PM
simplification of integration.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 01, 2008, 10:11:39 PM
Is a standalone really needed? The TwEECer with the BE/EA software can do most of what is needed - and does batch firing really fire all the injecors on one side simultaneously?
I like my second dashboard :D (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/DSCF1554.jpg)
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 01, 2008, 10:51:27 PM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;212095
- and does batch firing really fire all the injecors on one side simultaneously?
No, batch fire fires TWO injectors on each bank(side) of the engine at once or four total... A V6 fires one and two in a batch fire configuration(not that the question was asked)...
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 01, 2008, 11:02:38 PM
That sucks - how do you dial in the injector timing so that you aren't potentially passing fuel into the exhaust at low RPM's with a large overlap cam?
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: booksix on April 02, 2008, 05:57:54 PM
tuning. connect a pc, data log all the sensors while the car is running, revving, driving, whatever... print that off and it'll tell you where it's rich, lean, etc... adjust those rpm and save it to the MS system.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 02, 2008, 09:56:29 PM
I know about tuning (sorry if I wasn't clear here as I datalog and tune with the TwEECer now). With the EEC IV computer & the TwEECer, you can adjust the injector timing so that the injector won't fire until the exhaust valve is closed. You can do this at idle and low RPM's & light load only so it won't effect power production. It's possible with a large overlap cam to fire the injector while the intake is opening and the exhaust valve is not closed yet - thus passing some fuel into the exhaust. It just wastes fuel and can effect the AFR readings and skew what the engine thinks is stoich. There may be other issues with evaporation off the runner walls over time that effect burn consistency and transient fuel calculations. Perhaps I take this stuff too seriously :hick:
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: JeremyB on April 02, 2008, 10:16:33 PM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;212293
I know about tuning
Understatement of the week!
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: V8Demon on April 03, 2008, 07:38:05 AM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;212293
I know about tuning (sorry if I wasn't clear here as I datalog and tune with the TwEECer now). With the EEC IV computer & the TwEECer, you can adjust the injector timing so that the injector won't fire until the exhaust valve is closed. You can do this at idle and low RPM's & light load only so it won't effect power production. It's possible with a large overlap cam to fire the injector while the intake is opening and the exhaust valve is not closed yet - thus passing some fuel into the exhaust. It just wastes fuel and can effect the AFR readings and skew what the engine thinks is stoich. There may be other issues with evaporation off the runner walls over time that effect burn consistency and transient fuel calculations. Perhaps I take this stuff too seriously :hick:
This is exactly why I would prefer an SEFI type aftermarket setup as opposed to batch fire. People will argue that it really won't matter much at high RPM's, but when I'm slogging along the interstate for 3 hours @ 1800-2000 RPM's I'd bet it does.
Looking at the TwEECer RT package the price is comparable. When the time comes the RT in fact looks to be the way I will go:burnout:
BTW, Diggin the new sig with those rims;) Very Nice!
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: xjeffs on April 03, 2008, 01:59:03 PM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;212293
I know about tuning (sorry if I wasn't clear here as I datalog and tune with the TwEECer now). With the EEC IV computer & the TwEECer, you can adjust the injector timing so that the injector won't fire until the exhaust valve is closed. You can do this at idle and low RPM's & light load only so it won't effect power production. It's possible with a large overlap cam to fire the injector while the intake is opening and the exhaust valve is not closed yet - thus passing some fuel into the exhaust. It just wastes fuel and can effect the AFR readings and skew what the engine thinks is stoich. There may be other issues with evaporation off the runner walls over time that effect burn consistency and transient fuel calculations. Perhaps I take this stuff too seriously :hick:
Is this bank fire or sequential? If it's bank fire, there will always be one exhaust valve open.
If it's sequential, just set it at 450 degrees before bottom dead center Intake stroke accross the board to start with. You may need to lower it to 350-400 at idle if it stumbles a bit. This is cause by the heat of the engine causing the fuel to vaporize back into the manifold and into other cylinders, so you inject later to absorb less heat. You can move it around at WOT and get a couple more ft-lbs, but you probably wouldn't even notice the diff. Don't go over 500 degrees. If your system references TDCCompression for injection timing subtract 180 degrees from numbers.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: V8Demon on April 03, 2008, 02:34:17 PM
It runs off your main processor and allows you to make adjustments to it, so it's SEFI.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 03, 2008, 10:48:14 PM
Yeah, the TwEECer just intercepts & replaces the functions, tables etc. while the code is still stock Ford EEC IV.
The TwEECer software is kind of limited, so I and many others use EEC buttstuffyzer to buttstuffyze datalogs and Binary Editor which takes the place of the TwEECer programming software but anybody can modify the definition files & he supports it regularly. Also, his program will datalog and now has the buttstuffog dashboard (pic posted earlier) that lets you see your sensors etc live as you drive.
Here is a shot of EA on the cam tab that helps you decide on injector timing: (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/EA.jpg)
Here is binary editor - this is my actual injector timing: (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/BE.jpg)
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: xjeffs on April 04, 2008, 09:04:29 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;212367
It runs off your main processor and allows you to make adjustments to it, so it's SEFI.
Isn't EEC-IV batch fire? It has no cam and crank sensor (like the explorer) to discern where #1TDC is to begin the "Sequential".
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 04, 2008, 10:17:47 AM
EEC IV uses a signal from the TFI module in the distributor to time all events called the "PIP" - see description below.
Quote
The EEC gets one and only one timing signal from the TFI unit. It is called the PIP (Profile Ignition Pickup). The PIP signal is 45 - 55Hz @ 1000 RPM, for 4, 6 and 8 cylinder engines and, with the exception of SEFI, has a duty cycle of 50%. SEFI uses Signature PIP where the #1 vane on the PIP reluctor is roughly 35% duty cycle and the rest are roughly 50%. The EEC uses this to detect cylinder #1. On a stock car, the leading edge of the PIP signal is @ 10 BTDC.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: V8Demon on April 04, 2008, 10:28:07 AM
Batch fire in truck 5.0 Speed density SEFI in passenger car 5.0 speed density applications. All Mass Air was SEFI AFAIK.
Cougar5.0 -- I see you're still running over 100% duty cycle....or did you finally swap the injectors?
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 04, 2008, 11:49:12 AM
That plot is deceptive - it shows that in order to fire the injector after the exhaust valve is closed, the end of the pulse would be after the intake is closed AND even beyond the 720 available degrees. This is not the case - if you subtract the largest number from 354 (where the exhaust valve closes and where I have set the pulse to "start" at), you will see that the pulses are no longer than 540 degrees or about 75% duty cycle.
So what happens in reality is that I set the "off" point for the injector at 560 degrees - just 19 degrees before the intake is closed (the cam is actually mounted straight-up, not 4 deg advanced as shown). This means that the injector starts firing at about 20 (560-540) degrees at high RPM & load. I'm sure I've created more questions than answers :hick:
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: V8Demon on April 04, 2008, 12:32:52 PM
Quote
This means that the injector starts firing at about 20 (560-540) degrees at high RPM & load.
At which point the combustion events in the chamber happen within a short duration (each one). This would in effect require less spark or more? And correct me if I'm wrong but this promotes a rather clean burn @ high RPM, right?
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: xjeffs on April 04, 2008, 12:53:16 PM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;212508
That plot is deceptive - it shows that in order to fire the injector after the exhaust valve is closed, the end of the pulse would be after the intake is closed AND even beyond the 720 available degrees. This is not the case - if you subtract the largest number from 354 (where the exhaust valve closes and where I have set the pulse to "start" at), you will see that the pulses are no longer than 540 degrees or about 75% duty cycle.
So what happens in reality is that I set the "off" point for the injector at 560 degrees - just 19 degrees before the intake is closed (the cam is actually mounted straight-up, not 4 deg advanced as shown). This means that the injector starts firing at about 20 (560-540) degrees at high RPM & load. I'm sure I've created more questions than answers :hick:
A couple questions:
Have you tried injecting the whole pulse before the I valve even opens? This will greatly improve your vaporization and may reduce unburned fuel in across your O2 sensor. Fuel needs the heat to vaporize well. The goal is to start injection soon after the I valve closes so it can sit on the valve and absorb heat.
Why the excess overlap with a blower? I would've thought your overlap could be reduced since you are forcing air through the exhaust valve.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 04, 2008, 02:45:27 PM
I used the fast-ramp Comp "XE" cam because of the 35+ HP improvement that Richard Holdner saw in his testing with a KB blown 5L engine. I have done everything possible to reduce the off-idle torque of the blower as there is still way more than I need! This involved using a 112 LS cam (overlap leaks a little boost at low RPM and also helps cool the exhaust valve), retarding it 4 degrees (pushes the torque curve out a bit) and I pull timing in 1st gear based on load (i.e., if the tires slip the engine load will be reduced, but I pull MORE timing at medium loads (none at light loads so normal driving is not affected). I have considered injecting onto the back of the valve longer (it still happens quite a bit anyway) but the arguments for and against made me keep it where it is (which still has it spraying on the back of the intake valve for 380 degrees of crank revolution!) Adding 140 more degrees of of time to the back of the intake did not seem worth the risk of possible carbonization and pulling of fuel past the valve guide. Of course when I had injectors that were too small and I was at 100% DC, this became irrelevant :hick:
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: xjeffs on April 04, 2008, 04:55:56 PM
I really don't think you'll have to worry about the fuel evaporating off the wall as late as you're injecting it.
Is your open loop cal good enough to put it in OL when alot of fuel is passing through the exhaust valve?
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 04, 2008, 06:29:02 PM
Why would fuel be passing through the exhaust valve? The car runs open loop for the first few minutes just fine.
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: xjeffs on April 04, 2008, 08:28:56 PM
You said that when fuel passes through to the exhaust it screws with your AFR reading at your O2 sensor. I'm saying that under these conditions, put it in open loop and it will ignore the O2 sensor. I'm assuming these conditions are high PW which is high load.
Edit - Just reread your other post. Sounds like its everywhere but light load.
Edit II - Your only under boost above a load of 1 right? This means that this is the only possible time that pressure would force fuel out the exhaust during overlap. Any other time the manifold is under vacuum and would force it out during the piston coming up, which is when the valve is almost closed. I don't think your erroneous AFR readings are coming from overlap. I think its from you inj timing not being retarded enough. This definitely true when your load is under 1 because you are not under boost. Above one you may get some.
BTW I'm having a hard time figuring out which is your cam profile is on that page. The open/closed numbers show overlap of 1 degree. Are any of those numbers accurate?
Title: Plug & Play Megasquirt?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on April 04, 2008, 10:27:07 PM
The cam profile seems to account for the 1.7:1 rockers - making the events seem different than rated. The XE270HR-12 is 218/224 112LS (270/276 @ .005). It's cut to be advanced 4 deg, but I retarded it 4 deg so it's straight-up now.
The only reason I mentioned gasoline blow-through was at idle/very light cruise loads - I ensure the injector fires after the exhaust valve is closed, that's all. I don't care much about this issue at higher engine load & RPM's where I'm mostly concerned with performance.