84 Cougar, 3.8L
Check engine comes on intermittently while in drive at stop or decelerating below 5MPH. Light goes off if transmission changed to Neutral or Park.
Battery checks good and alternator putting out 14.16 volts.
Both on Demand and Continuous pass.
Any suggestions???
If you think the cfi has no carbon build up and is clear on the rear driver fitting,
Then try turning up the idle a wee bit.
First off though, check your fuel presure while driving cause if the fuel pump is dropping in psi a wee bit, this could cause a slight stumble in the begining stages of a fuel pump going out.
Thanks for input
Just had engine rebuilt, so hopefully no buildup. Current Idle seems a bit high, but GOOD SUGGESTION.
Fuel pump less than 2000 miles so should be OK.
check the coil
84 doesn't have an amber check engine light.
It has a red engine light.
It comes on if the engine is too hot or the oil pressure is too low.
In your case it sounds like the oil pressure is going too low at slow engine speeds.
Thanks for responses.
Softtouch will definitely check oil pressure.
had the same problem with my old 83 5.0 motor.... the red light would blink at me when i was at a stop in gear..... i bumped up the idle to about 850 rpm and it went away....
The 3.8, Throttle Body idle is supposedly controlled by the EEC-IV.
My guess is its a combination of throttle position sensor and distance of DC idle motor plunger which feeds the proper voltages.
A small adjustment can be make (DC idle motor), but I've got the right gap (7/32 inch per TSB) , and DC idle motor adjustment plate is as far as it will go (knocking up against the hold down plate screw).
Beside coil (can't see why this would have an effect), would the TFI heating up a little possibly change voltages. When Cold, idle fine, only after 15-20 miles driving does problem arise.
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Softtouch - same picture as my shop manual, except calls for 9/32 before the TSB change to 7/32.
BTW, I have the 1984 shop manual (3 large books plus the Electrical and Vacuum manual) if you need anything you can't find. I also made an alpha master torque list by object (e.g. alternator bolts...) for quick reference if of interest.
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Checked ISC today, off slightly after tightening hold down screw, so reset so correct after hold down screw tightened, but still getting same issue.
Any suggestions on how to check:
1) Overheating (other than light)
2) Monitoring oil pressure (other than light)
Thanks
David
I also have the 84 shop manuals.
You can isolate which sensor is turning on the light by pulling the wire off of them one at a time.
I have an oil pressure gauge that I got from J C Whitney for $20.99 including shipping.
Softtouch:
Re-siliconed the TFI, inside of plug wire boots, and coated the top of the rotor blade. Will see if I still have issues tomorrow.
Three questions re:
Since I'm not generating any codes, what will this accomplish other than to throw a code -- unless I'm missing something.
I have never seen anything in the shop manual regarding where to hook up for testing oil pressure. Can you provide page reference or explanation please.
See shop page 15-74. I use to use multipoint rotors, but haven't been able to find them for years. Per page 15-74, the blade type rotor requires alot of silicon grease. I find after running awhile the silicon seems to get on the inside cap poles and gets encrusted (hard deposits) which impacts running.
Are you using silicon on your rotor?
Do you have the same problem?
Any estimate on the life (miles) your getting from your cap and rotor?
Thanks
David
remove your oil presure switch and install your oil presure guage in the same hole.
I commented that the CFI has carbon buildup. Ill bet the farm your good ole enigine rebuild had nothing to do with the CFI.
That part got ignored when the rebuild was done im sure. No one cares to look there.
Your symptoms sound more like oil presure related so perhaps someone took a short cut on the parts.
DId the shop produce all the old part? What about the crank? What about the oil presure proportioning valve in the timing cover, what about the old oil pump gear set on the timing cover? What type of wear pattern was on the old bearings?
Basically, if your oil presure is 20 or so psi and never gets anywhere near 40 plus, the shop f'ed you over. Im gonna guess the oil presure at idle is in the teens because of the calibration range of the manual oil presure switches and how they range from open to close contact.
I wouldnt worry so much about the idle control motor because you can just set it anywhere to get the engine rpm stable at idle (if thats your goal). Worse case there would be a code thrown for the Idle Tracking Switch which can be taken care of later. All you need to do is figure out if setting the idle to 600-800rpm cures the problem with the light. Since you dont have a tac, it will all be by ear.
Another idea would be to clean the ACT sensor of any sludge buildup. Also measure the resistance when its cold (bout 50kohm) and the same goes for the Coolant Temp Sensor , same resistance as well per my diy link as well as both our shop manuals.
and also you can pick up the oil guage sold at many car stores that is intended to be mounted in your dash. Just use that as an oil presure tester and make it your tool. Comes with all the correct fittings as well. Just leave the brass fitting that screws into the oil presure switch hole loose so you can install it by hand.
The sensors that turn on the "engine" light do not set codes and have nothing to do with the EEC. They are simply switches that when closed, provide a ground to turn on the light.
When you turn the key on and before you start, the engine light is on because you have no oil pressure.
Yeah mine originally had the multipoint rotor. I don't put the silicon grease on mine. Probably should.
I only drive it about 1000 miles a year. Been probable 15 years since I replaced the rotor.
Look at the engine light on page 90 of your EVTM.
jcassity
I've tried to find the oil pressure switch for years. Maybe my old eyesight is missing something but NOWHERE in the shop is it identified. If you got a clue, I'd like to know!!
Talked to the finish mechanic (not the engine rebuilt group) and he indicated he cleaned all the carbon buildup out of the base plate.
Will keep suggestion part of checklist for now.
Always a possibility I got taken, but I have lot confidence in shop I selected. They do all high performance stuff, including marine engines that go into 500k+ boats. Whether they treated me as well is ??
I agree with idle control motor and switch since controlled by EEC.
According to shop, EEC takes total care of RPM and any adjustment is waste time. I do have a handheld tac, haven't ever used it on the 3.8 as never could figure out where to hook it. Care to enlighten me???
Will keep the above in mind.
Didn't drive today, but have a 15-20 mile trip tomorrow so will see if my cleaning/silicon did any good, otherwise will start with you ideas above.
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softtouch
Agree. Haven't traced the engine light circuit yet to see what all it controls.
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Thanks for input guys
The oil pressure switch is shown on page 92 of your EVTM. It is just above and to the right of the oil filter.
If...
- Your oil pressure checks out fine;
- You've cleaned everything;
- The car is confirmed to be not overheating;
- Everything else mentioned above is in spec
- And you're getting no EEC codes...
...then...
...change the temp sending unit. ;)
That used to happen on my first '84. Car had under 50,000 miles on the ticker, and that light would intermittently flash (car was just a few years old then). Granted, I was pretty ignorant about the head gasket issue at that time, but I ignored the light several times and the car never overheated, nor did it have an oiling issue. A change of the temp sending unit fixed the problem. After I sold the car, it went to approx. 140,000 miles before requiring a head gasket change. Guess I lucked out.
My 83 flashed on and off at me for two or three days before I realized that the coolant was low because the water pump was leaking :hick:
*Why yes little light I know my car has an engine*
There's a Check Engine light for guys like that...
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Thanks for all the input guys. I did locate the following:
1) What controls the warning lamp (Section 33-12 and page 90 of the EVTM manual). Thanks softtouch.
2) Found the oil pressure gauge -- by oil filter (page 92 EVTM) Thanks again softtouch.
3) Where to hook up a tach (small negative connector of coil and then to ground) p15-75 in Emission Manual makes reference. Blew the dust off my old Penske dwell/tach meter and also found the paperwork which confirms this connection for Fords.
Today (Sat evening) just finished taking another test drive.
Identified the following:
1) Siliconing the TFI, plug boots, and cleaning the distributor rotor contacts had NO effect.
2) At stop in drive, slightly increasing RPM caused light to go out.
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Next effort is to run wires into cab or tape them -- for tach measurements, oil pressure, and coolant temperature so I can monitor while running.
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Took tach measurements and RPM are steady at 480-500. Seems low but since EEC-IV controls guess not much I can do about it.
Triggered condition and then removed wire to temp sensor and warning light remained ON.
So that leaves oil pressure switch UNLESS something else is wired in and not shown in shop.
Thought I'd replace oil sensor to see if corrects -- naturally requires a 6 point 1-1/16 socket (12 pt won't work) so off to get a socket.
David
Put in a new oil pressure switch -- light still triggers after 15-20 miles at idle stop.
Opted for switch over gauge for now.
So -- where to go from here:
1) Can oil pump be eradict???
2) Are low RPM's causing the problem but why only after running
15-20 miles??
Any other suggestions guys?????????
Thanks
David
I cant keep beating a dead horse so when you get an oil presure reading, post it.
simple fix would be to do an oil change and use the next highest thicker oil. If the problem goes away, you likely just found your problem-- :mad:
Im not sure where you live so if youve been running thin oil and the temps got higher in your area, you may not be running thick enough. 10w40 is standard while 10w30 makes good for winter.
anyway, old question,, did the rebuild shop provide you with **ALL** your old parts? if the crank was .004 or more, using a thicker oil will shim that up and make the light go out.
like i said, not good. without an oil pres reading we cant tell.
without you knowing the actual idle rpm, its hard to tell as well.
your beating a dead horse just talking about it, you gotta get reading on both.
And why not???
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i have the same problem in my 84 t/c. the red engine light comes on after it gets warmed up. i took these guys advice and put a mechanical oil pressure gauge. i found that after she gets warm and i'm at a stop light that the oil pressure drops to 10psi. then the red light comes on. so go get your self a cheap gauge and install it so you can find out if that is the problem.
jcassity and others appreciate all your input.
ipsd -- already know oil pressure the problem based on the fact that the warning light is only triggered by either oil pressure or coolant temp. Pulling leads and seeing what happened identified is as oil pressure. Only issue in question is what is the pressure when it triggers.
THats why, IMHO a gauge seems somewhat redundant in that the oil pressure switch is set to trigger at some psi value. So far haven't found that value?
jcassity didn't intend to give you heartburn :>). BTW I'm in southern Arizona.
Rebuilder used CF4 diesel oil. Indicated need to run either CF4 or race oil. Suggested I try and oil change to see what happens. Hopefully oil change and gauge install this weekend.
Also in process contacting the petroleum institute to see if in fact true -- does CF4 or racing have different lubricant which will make any difference?
As a final note, my web searches found
1) similar Ford issues supposedly either a oil pump relief value or cam bearings.
2) the oil gauge installed by Ford in later models (>1984 or more) and F150 trucks are redundant anyway. Supposedly Ford put a 20 ohm resistor in line with the gauge which effectively turned it into a switch. This may be on interest to some.
your over complicating simple stuff.
The guage i got (and made it a tool) comes in a package with a clear little hose and a couple brass fittings. You just remove your old oil pres sensor (may reqire that special socket), and install the gizmo you just bought for like 10 or 12 bux.
The search you found on the internet for the oil presure relief valve is exactly what i explained to you earlier.
more info now.....
The oil filter screws on the timing cover
at the 2 o'clock of the oil filter is your oil pres switch
remove filter and you will see 6 bolts
remove six bolts and there reveals your oil pump gears.
remove the gears and there will be a slot or hole exposed.
you will see a rod like thing a ma jig up in there
that is a long metal thingy that is inside the timing cover.
this slides back and forth with a spring on one end.
"THIS" would be the oil presure relief valve.
The only way to R/R it is to remove the timing cover.
There is a freeze plug on the back side of the timing cover driver side
Drill it and pop it out , remove the valve and spring.
A new oil pump gear set will come with:gears, valve,spring,freeze plug
I have no data on how often the culpert of low oil psi is caused by a binding oil relief valve.
I do know this,, a high volume oil pump gearset will likely help you.
Another thing I know,, you best be getting your ass back over to whomever built the motor and express your concern.
you never mentioned if they gave you your old parts back or what your "rebuild" entailed.
If you went as cheap as possible, then they probably reused your old crank and your gap is too large on the mains and rods.
also,, go do yourself an oil change and get thicker stuff in there. Its gonna do nothing but get hotter there in AZ so the thicker the better for now because when oil heats up, it thins out.
I dont get heartburn,,lol,, i just get wound up easy:D
True for some models but not all... Models with a gage(not blinking light or a bar graph), continued to have real time monitoring till about '89 or '90... At that time Ford neutered them into nothing more than idiot gages...
Update:
JCassity -- just read your post.
FYI regarding:
No didn't get the old parts back. Did not go on cheap -- approx. $4000. Whether I got taken???? They did reuse the old crank. and gave me a tech sheet on all milling. Will post later today.
Your post basically is what I did.
Found that the oil pressure switch triggers between 3 1/2 and 7 lbs.
So that answered my question regarding pressure.
Took car back to re-builder (he's AERA). Received back yesterday (in shop 1 day)
1) Indicated oil pressure at stop idle was 6 psi
2) Said according to AERA has a problem with oil pump gears being to short.
3) Said he had to mill down the pump cover in order to lengthen the gear length.
Indicated he was able to do this without removing the timing cover.
4) Pressure at stop idle now is supposedly 10 psi.
Haven't driven the vehicle far enough yet to know if fixed.
Light previously came on between 13-14 miles of stop/go.
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Based on your description:
Dropping in a new gear set would seem more logical to me.
Ever hear of milling the cover or is he blowing smoke up you know where??
There is an AERA TB 1075 that addresses
"Broken Oil Pump Intermediate Shaft On Ford 3.8 Engines"
Indicates some after market pump gaskets are not thick enough or do not even include a gasket (original gasket was metal at .010) to give proper clearance between gear set and oil pump cover. Gears should normally extend .0020-.0055 beyond housing.
The desired oil pump end cover to gear clearance should be .0045-.0080.
His milling results:
Bore 3.8405
Piston Wall Clearance .0015
Journal Size - Main 2.51886
Journal Size - Rod 2.3106
Main Bearing(#2) .0012
Rod Bearing .0017
Crank End Play .005
Ring Gap - Top .018
Ring Gap - Second .020
Deck Clearance -.008
Nothing regarding the CAM. Whether above good/bad beyond my pay grade!!!