Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: jcassity on February 16, 2008, 12:47:48 PM
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 16, 2008, 12:47:48 PM
Yesterday i load up the famn damliy in the 20th. I crank but no start. All seems ok with cranking and such. I pop the hood and yank off the spark plug boot from the coil.
I know that this prob isnt a good idea but i took a risk. I know that if the coil wire is off, it will jump arch to the frame when cranking. I really had no time to make a big deal out of this and cost us time as we were right on schedule as it was.
I crank and no spark,,,,,,time to get busy. If it isnt the TFI or the Stator, then Ill probably learn something new.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: thunderjet302 on February 16, 2008, 05:47:54 PM
Replace TFI. If still no worky replace stator. That's what I had to do with my 95 :hick:
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 16, 2008, 11:51:47 PM
I didnt have time to get this done today but tomorrow is another day. I have to get it done though nonetheless. I hate dealing with the dizzy gear, thats all. I would have bought the tool napa has for this part if they had one but they didnt.
this slight bucking at various speeds gave me plenty of warning something was wrong. Before replace anything, im gonna pull the codes and see what the eec says just for snits n grins
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: V8Demon on February 17, 2008, 01:42:44 AM
Scott, this should help! ;)
EFI No Start (http://"http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,588.0.html")
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 17, 2008, 03:16:11 AM
yeah, he's got it down to pin three of the TFI but no mention of pin four or how to isolate if its the stator or the TFI by probing the TFI side of the sprout.
In other words, he's not able to tell which part is bad but replace both for the heck of it. My diy link does,,,,grin:D
To add to this, I knew i would learn something new. Never thought of just rotating the dizzy to make spark happen. Thats awsome cause it rules out my having to keep the remote starter on call. Thats pretty simple what he's doing, just rotate the dizzy and simulate starting.:bowdown:
purdy neat!!
As for my dizzy gear, ive been thinking a lot about how im gonna get it off. I fugged up the last one i did but the two previous went fine. I actually wanna figure out a way to modify the dizy upper flat area and the stator so it can be removed from the top. Ill do some looking into this but i know it will call for:
Splitting the stator ring / trim it remove some of the flat area on the dizzy where that 8 finned thingy bolts to
doing the above will force the octane rod to play a role as a secondary support more than ever. If this works, I will be able to install a stator from the top from now on as long as it will fit / clear that flat area metal surface and the side of the dizzy.
Im just thinking that since im keeping my coug's for a long period of time, i dont wanna have to ever do a dizzy gear removal ever again after the last one. Even with a bunch of heat the last one ended up forcing me to buy a dizzy.
Way back when, i had a stator that failed so i decided to figure out why its bad. What i discovered was the black wire for the stator (which involves the TFI) was open due to a bad solder connection and heat.
In theory, if i have the same problem here, I should be able to get down deep in the dizzy to find the stator black wire and jumper it to ground on the inside of the dizzy somehow.
I dont know about you but this sounds like a lot of piddling for someone who has to have this car ready for a road trip monday.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 17, 2008, 03:34:21 PM
well isnt this just freaking nifty
all sensors that point to the map are showing up in my KOEO codes 21 ECT 23 TPS 24 ACT 34 EVP
continuous memory 34
any takers 304 772 4082
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: V8Demon on February 17, 2008, 03:54:10 PM
Try this:
Quote
NO Start - ECM NOT Turning On Condition
Another reason for an EFI No Start, is that the ECM is not turning on when the key is cycled to the IGN ON position. First you have to ID this is the case. In order to confirm if the ECM is not activating, notice if the fuel pump primes when the key is rotated to IGN ON, if it does prime.....the ECM is turning on.....if it doesn't.....measure for 5 vdc VREF voltage at any of the 3-wire sensors (EVP, TPS or MAP/BP), we will use the TPS for this explanation.
Notice the color of the TPS sensor wires to the sensor side.....GREEN = TPS output signal, BLACK = SIGRTN ground reference and RED or ORANGE = 5 vdc VREF
.....let's start with the procedure.
- Check for 5 vdc, IGN ON between the RED/ORANGE wire and a good ground like battery (-)......if 5 vdc is present, THE ECM is turning on.....not present.....next!
- Check the EEC ground near the battery, it should be attached to the battery (-) or the frame.
- Check the EEC relay located on top of the ECM in the passenger kickpanel, make sure it has 12-vdc "always hot" at one of the relay terminals....if not, you need to trace the "always-hot" wire to the correspondent fuselink located in the starter solenoid.
- Make sure the IGN ON relay terminal switches to 12-vdc when you turn the ignition key....if not, you either have a wiring open, a bad ignition switch assy., or an open fuselink.
- Make sure pin #1 at the ECM connector has 12-vdc "always hot", and that pins 47 and 57 have 12-vdc when the key is switched to IGN ON otherwise, you have an open fuselink, or an open wire between the EEC relay and the ECM connector.
- Also check pins 20, 40 and 60 at the ECM connector to ground (resistance check).....if you have >5Ω resistance to a good ground reference point, the ground wires have an open somewhere.
- If all the above checks OK.....the ECM is fubar.....
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 17, 2008, 04:39:39 PM
Yeah, i have 5vref everywhere.
Im just curious about this cause i feel like im about to shot gun the problem. Besides, if the eec were not turning on, id bet i wouldnt get codes.
I did notice something interesting on the Stator. the plastic part that sticks up opposite of the magnet,,,,,,, well, I noticed some damage there. Im curious if that piece gets warm and cools then eventually will warp and get in the way of the 8 fin thing a ma jig. I noticed some ss on two of my 8 fns, one fin with ss was my number one cyl reference blade.
I dono, im gonna swap the map cause its there and easy but likley im pulling the dizzy.
anyone got any ideas, im in the garage so call if you wanna but im pluggin away.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 17, 2008, 08:14:00 PM
I swapped out the map just for the heck of it and wasnt happy with the condition of the map vac line. Man these upper intakes suck assberries!!!!. The intake end of the MAP sensor vac line cant be gotten to with the uppper installed.
Anyway, installed the TFI and problem solved. EEC never once indicated the correct fault.
Now i wanna know why.
I solved my EVP code because apparently I neglected to reconnect the EGR in the recent past. In addition, evertime i turn around i find something has been tinkered with on this car. I found an Orange ground wire with a large lug that was not hooked up. Ill assume this would have been tied to my o'2 sensors somehow but ill look that up later unless someone knows.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: softtouch on February 17, 2008, 09:10:36 PM
Quote from: jcassity;204743
well isnt this just freaking nifty
all sensors that point to the map are showing up in my KOEO codes
I don't understand this statement. The only input to the MAP is vacuum. They all share the same "reference voltage" 5v from EEC pin26. They also share the same "signal return" (logic ground) to EEC pin 46.
Quote
21 ECT 23 TPS 24 ACT 34 EVP
continuous memory 34
I don't understand why you are getting code 34's. According to the documentation I have it should only apply to PFE (pressure feedback type EGR sensors). You should have EVP
There are no KOEO codes for TFI. There is a memory code 14 for erratic PIP pulses.
Was the car code free before this TFI problem cropped up?
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: JeremyB on February 17, 2008, 09:26:04 PM
Quote from: softtouch;204797
I don't understand why you are getting code 34's. According to the documentation I have it should only apply to PFE (pressure feedback type EGR sensors). You should have EVP
My '85 Helm says it is a valid code.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: softtouch on February 17, 2008, 09:48:28 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;204799
My '85 Helm says it is a valid code.
My documentation shows it as a valid code for EVP during KOER but not KOEO or MEM.
My documentation: Service Bulletin #089 Diagnostic trouble codes for 1983-1992
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: JeremyB on February 17, 2008, 09:55:39 PM
They call me Mr. IdidntreadenoughtoseethatitwasKOEOnotKOER. So sorry!
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 17, 2008, 09:59:08 PM
Quote from: softtouch;204797
I don't understand this statement. The only input to the MAP is vacuum. They all share the same "reference voltage" 5v from EEC pin26. They also share the same "signal return" (logic ground) to EEC pin 46.
your right, my mess up.
Quote from: softtouch;204797
I don't understand why you are getting code 34's. According to the documentation I have it should only apply to PFE (pressure feedback type EGR sensors). You should have EVP
I dono either, but 34 it is.
Quote from: softtouch;204797
There are no KOEO codes for TFI. There is a memory code 14 for erratic PIP pulses.
I did not realize that. Where'd you find that info at? SO in a no spark situation, you would have to have the engine running in order to see the defect? I cant understand why this is so because if there was a defect with the TFI during operation, the EEC should have record of it. THe car has been doing a little bucking often after warm up so i figured one day i would pull codes and narrow it down. Now that the bucking seems to have been cured , there is no record of any spark related items.
Quote from: softtouch;204797
Was the car code free before this TFI problem cropped up?
I can not answer this because I did not pull codes on the car until today. My first time pulling codes since i bought it.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 17, 2008, 10:04:35 PM
By the way, my diy link i have,,,,,,,,,, i went to therangerstation.com and copied/pasted the list of codes from there.
perhaps they are wrong but so far so good when and if i ever have to compare.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: softtouch on February 17, 2008, 11:30:44 PM
Quote from: jcassity;204808
I did not realize that. Where'd you find that info at? SO in a no spark situation, you would have to have the engine running in order to see the defect? I cant understand why this is so because if there was a defect with the TFI during operation, the EEC should have record of it. THe car has been doing a little bucking often after warm up so i figured one day i would pull codes and narrow it down. Now that the bucking seems to have been cured , there is no record of any spark related items.
Mem code 14. Erratic Ignition. (EEC looking at PIP pulses) Indicates two successive erratic PIP pulses occured, resulting in a possible miss or stall. Check PIP pulse frequency and % of dwell. Check EEC and ignition systems harness for: loose wires/ connectors...Arching secondary ignition components...On-board radio transmitter.
Code 18. Ignition Diagnostic Monitor (EEC looking at TFI side of coil) KOER. SPOUT circuit open during test. MEM. Loss of signal from coil negative or SPOUT grounded. They do list the TFI as one thing that could cause this.
I did get a MEM code 14 on my car when the PIP pick-up in the distributor went bad.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: santana on February 18, 2008, 04:54:08 PM
The orange ground wire with the large lug is the ground for the O2 sensor on my 88TC and it gets grounded to the coldside of my turbo.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 18, 2008, 09:11:57 PM
thank you, i figured as much. I grounded it to the braided ground strap on the driver side fire wall. I suppose it should be grounded to the head but heck with it, its grounded.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 19, 2008, 07:44:45 PM
well well well,,, ill just vote myself in for the dumbass ballot. Just got told you dont pull codes on a cold motor or you WILL get an ACT /ECT code:mad: shesh,, that sounds so much like common sense.
Ive already bought the ACT and the TPS and ill swap those in a few moments while the oil is draining.
After a warm up, ill pull codes again and see whats happening KOEO/KOER.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: Old_Paint on February 20, 2008, 10:00:26 PM
Quote from: jcassity;205165
well well well,,, ill just vote myself in for the dumbass ballot. Just got told you dont pull codes on a cold motor or you WILL get an ACT /ECT code:mad: shesh,, that sounds so much like common sense.
Not really, and I'd hardly consider you for the ballot. You'd be surprised how many try this. I refer to reading about it MANY times on a couple other sites for Ford Trucks, as well as getting a ton of codes myself, only to have them disappear when the engine got warm.:crazy: Yes, you WILL get ECT and ACT codes. Even in the ancient Haynes manual I have on the 'Bird, it says WARM engine. Might also refer to www.fordfuelinjection.com (http://"http://www.fordfuelinjection.com"). Great site.
Now, as for the pip/tfi problems, me and another guy (mostly his experiment) have been discussing the very issue of no available test box for testing PIP or TFI in car, or on bench. Go see this thread. It's basically a test box to test PIP and TFI (dizzy mounted) in car, using LED's to show if PIP is triggering, and if TFI is also triggering. One thing I haven't discussed with him, though, is burden on the coil output of the TFI, and whether that's going to make a difference in revealing an ailing TFI.
You might wanna build this yourself. I'm strongly considering it. This would be a mighty handy tool for a warm-engine shutdown on the highway, and possibly avoid pulling a dizzy for a PIP. A blown up TFI and a junk harness should yeild the connectors needed for building.
We're also discussing a hand-held tester for TFI/Coil, with a built in oscillator, and use just a spark tester to go with it. Plug the spark tester into the coil, test box inline with TFI, and turn it on. Spark tester should light up like a Xmas tree if TFI and coil are good.
The guy I've been discussing this with is an EXCELLENT resource. About as sharp as a $2 tack. Pity he doesn't own a 'Bird or Cat. He'd be here if he did, I promise, if I had to drag him kicking and screaming. This guy has a diagram for ANYTHING on the Gen 8 F-150's, and is very well versed on EEC-IV.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 20, 2008, 10:33:14 PM
make sure to pass along that pic of the stator i gutted. I found bad solder connections with the black iwre and he may find that interesting.
Like a dumbass, i did not change the stator ,,,,,YET.
I like people like that,, smart people who are more than curious enough to think hard about some things people would typically ignore and just replace the part. Im in it for the long haul on these cars and the more I learn to work around the easier things will be over time.
I am in need of a spare dizzy to experiement with and modify it so the stator can be removed from the top.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: Old_Paint on February 20, 2008, 11:21:47 PM
Hmmm, that's going to require a removable vane ring. Would probably need to be keyed or roll pinned to prevent slippage on the shaft. Either that, or a two piece shaft, keyed, with an allen through the center of the top part. Cutting the shaft and minimizng metal loss will be the issue, unless you get TWO, and offset the cut on each to compensate for the cutting losses. Got a lathe? Dunno why they had to be designed the way they are. Probably some engineer's ONLY way. You want five ONLY ways to do something, just ask five engineers.
Fire a link to that photo you referred to. I'm also going to see if I can find some photos of the relocated TFI project. As I recall, they just used one from the Effies with the heat sink, and gutted a dizzy mounted one to build a connector and re-seal the dizzy.
I like people like Bill too. I hate just throwing parts at something til the problem goes away. I want to know WHAT failed, and WHY, so maybe I can make some corrective measures to prevent it happening again. Most failures on my vehicles, I know EXACTLY why they failed. I let dealers work on 'em.
Title: No start (SOLVED)
Post by: jcassity on February 21, 2008, 12:06:24 AM
post number 5 of this thread has the picture of the gutted stator.
My thoughts are as i described there as well. The octan rod will keep the stator from rotating,, keeping it stationary. All i want to try is to trim away part of the circle part / mount part so it snaps around the dizzy shaft.
The metal work on the part where the rotor sits is another issue as well.
And by the way,, on 6 different instances, i have resistance readings that match on the stator asembly from the three connections. They all read about the same range.