Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

General => General Fox T-Bird/Cougar Discussion => Topic started by: 4bangen on February 12, 2008, 05:16:18 PM

Poll
Question: witch moter?
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 4bangen on February 12, 2008, 05:16:18 PM
I was talking to a friend who owns a machine shop. We where talking about the 455ci in my buick, and as it always happens when two gear heads are talking we got side tracked. We started talking about how poorly my TC ran this past sunday at the track. I told him about the thought I had of dropping the spare buick 455ci I have in there. Then I mentioned the on and off idea of a 460ci.  He then told me what he thought I should do. He said and I quoate, "I can buil you a 347 stroker for less than a grand with about 400hp to the wheels, Thats what you should do."

So what do ya'll think?
455 buick

2.3t

347 stroker

or 460?
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: ZondaC12 on February 12, 2008, 05:27:25 PM
Oh no here we go........:hick:
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 4bangen on February 12, 2008, 05:49:15 PM
Quote from: ZondaC12;203761
Oh no here we go........:hick:


before the 4 vs. 8 argument starts up let me say the reson it ran bad this weekend was becouse I smoked the stock clutch my second pass. After that I couldnt leave hard.
the reson I am thinking of ditching the 2.3 is becouse I want to run more than 600hp... eventualy, not right off the bat.:burnout:
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: Dogcharmer on February 12, 2008, 05:54:21 PM
I vote 347 stroker.

But 400 HP for less than a grand? I wish I could get someone to give me a set of AFR 185's and a good hyd/roller cam for free! Not to mention a fuel system that will support 400 HP (again for free).

In reality you'll be lucky to even get close to $3500 for a 400 hp 347. Heads and cam alone will cost you close to $1800. Fuel system even if carbed will run over $800. Then you've got headers, exhaust, all the miscellaneous swap items and general small parts... Oh, and dont forget that you'll need a new transmission. I'm thinkin the swap from start to finish where you end up with a running car putting 400 hp to the wheels on a dyno will probably cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $6000 to $8000... probably more!

Good luck, and have a nice day:)
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 4bangen on February 12, 2008, 06:08:08 PM
When the guy who is doing all the machine work, and putting all the bits together owes you a favor, and gets all the parts at caust; I see it as doable.right now I'm leaning more tward the 455(if it will fit.) 510ft lbs of torque out of a motor that waighs 150lbs less than a cheby 454 sounds kinda fun, and I've never seen it done before.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 4bangen on February 12, 2008, 06:08:45 PM
and thank you, I will have a nice day;)
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 20th anny 5.o on February 12, 2008, 07:03:19 PM
I voted 347 stroker, its a ford keep it that way just my 2 cents.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: daminc on February 12, 2008, 07:54:03 PM
No 351 in the mix?
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: SR71TC on February 12, 2008, 08:30:37 PM
I would do a 408 or 427......my suggestion
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: grutinator on February 12, 2008, 08:47:36 PM
believe me, building a 347 ends up being more then you think. a good strocker rotating assembly is about 1000. then machine work. you cant run stock heads, at least and not make any power. theres 1200 or so in decent heads. cam , lifters and u really should get roller rockers, idk, 500-600-ish. carbed or fuel injected? for a grand, i'm betting carburated, but still thats intake and carb. better fuel pump. you'll need an exhaust or you'll choke that engine.

simply put, this is no 1000 build

you could half ass it and maybe built a $1500-2000 or so build up if you buy mostly off EBAY, know a machinist, and stuff your bra and show a lil ass... then maybe you could pull off a cheap build. but then you'll be closer to a 300hp engine and loose some reliabily
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: t3skidoo on February 12, 2008, 08:58:38 PM
Is that $1K installed?  If you can drop off your car at a shop, show up later with 10 Franklins and drive away, I'd say go for it.

If not, I vote for something not on your list, a TT SBF using a couple turbos from TCs, either IHIs or T3s.  You can source most of the other parts you need from the junkyard/ebay/owners, save your money for important things like pistons, rings, and fabrication.

That said, since you smoked the clutch with the 2.3T, sounds like the last thing you need right now is a more powerful motor.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: jncocowboyx on February 13, 2008, 02:52:28 AM
there are plenty more v8 thundercats than turbo 4s. getcha a v6 or v8  to put the stroker in.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: Red_LX on February 13, 2008, 09:31:14 AM
Somehow, I doubt that guy could build you a 347 stroker for $1000, even buying parts "at cost."

MAYBE if he was just supplying the rotating assembly...
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: oldraven on February 13, 2008, 09:34:36 AM
Quote from: 4bangen;203766
the reson I am thinking of ditching the 2.3 is becouse I want to run more than 600hp... eventualy, not right off the bat.:burnout:


Buy a Sport. That's what they're for. ;) You know how I voted, I'm sure.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 4bangen on February 13, 2008, 12:08:52 PM
Quote from: Red_LX;203880
Somehow, I doubt that guy could build you a 347 stroker for $1000, even buying parts "at cost."

MAYBE if he was just supplying the rotating assembly...


I have the 5.0l core for the 347. He's going to provide the parts at caust, and do all the head work, balancing and assembly for free.

I dont see why no one can belive that I can get it done for that price. It's not what you know its who you know. I know I'm going to need exaust, and headers, and such. But thats all easy to get ahold of as long as I dont get in a hurry.

I may stick with the 2.3l The same guy is willing to port and pollish the spare head I have, he will also hook up my 100hp shot wet kit for me (I've never done n2o before so I want someone with a little know how to do it.

I dont want a sport becouse I already have all the good stuff in the TC, so why buy a car that I'd have to upgrade to get to where I already am? This is all cloud talk for now anyway. I wouldnt be doing anything for a few months anyway. Right now I'm working on getting my 72 buick running. Then I'll deside on the bird.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: jlewis05 on February 13, 2008, 12:57:45 PM
1. Obtain Mark VIII 4.6 DOHC
2. Install forged pistons and rods, maybe oil pump gears, nothing else, parts cost around 1500 total probably
3. Twin turbo
4. 600 HP at 15 psi
5. ???
6. Profit

If going with a Windsor series and you want 600 HP one day, just forget the 302 based and go with a 351 block.  From what I know the 347, although better than early iterations, still uses a tight ring pack and the pin intersects the oil ring, short piston to get any decent rod length, etc.  A 331 would still be less risky I think.

If you really just want 400 hp, that's already been proven by many with the 2.3, doesn't take a lot of drama to get there, just lots of boost and a good tune.  That compared with a 400 HP V8 is certainly a different animal though, but either one will go fast and if the 2.3 pops it's cheap to fix and replace.

It would be absurd to put some other (non-bolt-in) engine in there unless you like spending big bucks (or lots of time) just to be different, custom engine mounts and transmission setup.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 4bangen on February 13, 2008, 03:25:12 PM
Whats the resipey for a 400hp 2.3t? If I kept it, I was planning ported head big valves, gutted and rotated intake, I have a massive FMIC for it, holset turbo with stinger tube header, 3" exaust, and a M.S. programer that does away with the vam. Top it all off with a 100hp wet shot. What would that net me?

Quote from: jlewis05;203919
1. Obtain Mark VIII 4.6 DOHC
2. Install forged pistons and rods, maybe oil pump gears, nothing else, parts cost around 1500 total probably
3. Twin turbo
4. 600 HP at 15 psi
5. ???
6. Profit

If going with a Windsor series and you want 600 HP one day, just forget the 302 based and go with a 351 block.  From what I know the 347, although better than early iterations, still uses a tight ring pack and the pin intersects the oil ring, short piston to get any decent rod length, etc.  A 331 would still be less risky I think.

If you really just want 400 hp, that's already been proven by many with the 2.3, doesn't take a lot of drama to get there, just lots of boost and a good tune.  That compared with a 400 HP V8 is certainly a different animal though, but either one will go fast and if the 2.3 pops it's cheap to fix and replace.

It would be absurd to put some other (non-bolt-in) engine in there unless you like spending big bucks (or lots of time) just to be different, custom engine mounts and transmission setup.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 4bangen on February 13, 2008, 03:26:18 PM
Quote from: jlewis05;203919

5. ???
6. Profit



Oh and by the way.....lol:D
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: JeremyB on February 13, 2008, 03:29:23 PM
Quote from: jlewis05;203919
From what I know the 347, although better than early iterations, still uses a tight ring pack and the pin intersects the oil ring, short piston to get any decent rod length, etc.  A 331 would still be less risky I think.

The 331 is only risky if the engine assembler screws up.
The rings issues are moot.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: jlewis05 on February 13, 2008, 03:54:12 PM
I suppose it depends on the RPM you plan on turning, I like a lot :D.  You know where to look for the 2.3 recipes, on Turboford, porting and big valves with the right turbo should be the main ingredients.  Wes Kiser turned numbers around that with what seemed to be a fairly straightforward setup, of course he's an engineer by trade I think :D.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: ipsd on February 13, 2008, 04:41:56 PM
i'm more of a 2.3t so you know how i voted. like said before keep it 2.3t if you want the v8 power buy a car that came with one. it is your car so do what you want. also if you smoked your clutch way not just install a new one
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 4bangen on February 14, 2008, 12:31:19 PM
What kind of proformance clutches are there for the 2.3?
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: jlewis05 on February 14, 2008, 03:18:01 PM
Hehe, there's anything you want.  You can get a puck clutch that will grab like there's no tomorrow but it'll be harder to drive, clutchnet.com, the more pucks the smoother it will be and the less power handling, less pucks means more power handling, grabbier engagement.  A six puck would probably be driveable with an iron flywheel but not with aluminum, I have one with aluminum and it's a pain to take off but I'm cool with that.  For something that drives completely like stock clutchnet and spec make composite friction materials for discs.  A stock PP would probably be fine for you if you run an aggressive disc.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: V8Demon on February 14, 2008, 03:41:06 PM
Quote
From what I know the 347, although better than early iterations, still uses a tight ring pack and the pin intersects the oil ring, short piston to get any decent rod length, etc. A 331 would still be less risky I think.



The CHP 347 kit does not have the oil rings in wrist pin if that is a concern.....

http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=8479&highlight=331+347
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: jlewis05 on February 14, 2008, 03:53:05 PM
Yeah, I thought someone finally made the stack short and high enough to stay out of the wrist pin, guess that's it.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: V8Demon on February 14, 2008, 03:55:08 PM
It uses the 331 piston.....1.175" CH as opposed to 1.09".
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 4bangen on February 14, 2008, 06:03:05 PM
Desition made! 2.3l stays. Well actualy its coming out, but a fully built 2.3 is going back in! he he he
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: CougarSE on February 14, 2008, 06:08:48 PM
Quote from: jlewis05;203919
4. 600 HP at 15 psi
5. ???
6. Profit

Hey whats phase 5?
"I duno, phase 6 is profit!"


LMFAO
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: V8Demon on February 14, 2008, 06:19:26 PM
Step 1 :  Collect Underpants!
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: bhazard on February 15, 2008, 11:20:37 AM
Quote from: 4bangen;204249
Desition made! 2.3l stays. Well actualy its coming out, but a fully built 2.3 is going back in! he he he




Woot woot, a victory in the 2.3 vs 5.0 battle!
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: V8Demon on February 15, 2008, 01:06:37 PM
Quote
Woot woot, a victory in the 2.3 vs 5.0 battle!


If I have my way, my next project will be neither....And it won't be a Mod motor either.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: Tbird232ci on February 15, 2008, 02:58:15 PM
Quote from: 4bangen;203948
Whats the resipey for a 400hp 2.3t? If I kept it, I was planning ported head big valves, gutted and rotated intake, I have a massive FMIC for it, holset turbo with stinger tube header, 3" exaust, and a M.S. programer that does away with the vam. Top it all off with a 100hp wet shot. What would that net me?

Ill tell you right now. Building a 2.3L is about 40% parts, and 60% your fuel and tuning.

Get some big injectors and a good pump along with MS, a wideband, and some dyno time.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: V8Demon on February 15, 2008, 03:24:02 PM
Quote
Ill tell you right now. Building a 2.3L is about 40% parts, and 60% your fuel and tuning.


+1 
I'd say that goes for just about any motor you put forced induction on.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: gumby on February 15, 2008, 04:02:40 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;204384
If I have my way, my next project will be neither....And it won't be a Mod motor either.
me too :burnout:
Quote from: V8Demon;204417
 
I'd say that goes for just about any motor you put forced induction on.
agreed, but this logic seems lost on quite a few 2.3T builds for whatever reason.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 4bangen on February 15, 2008, 05:07:46 PM
I already talked to a good local shop, He's ready with the dyno as soon as the cars ready.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: ffr1222k on February 27, 2008, 07:44:32 AM
Wes had $500 in the head, $250 in the Cam, $150 in the header and the Turbo would have cost $600 if he had bought it.  He also had $300 in the Spec Stage 3 clutch.  He put 389HP to the wheels on a Mustang Dyno.  That would have been around 410 on a Dyno Jet.  He drove the car for 4 years (about 60,000 miles) on a stock bottom end that we put rings and bearings in.  The car was dead nuts dependable. 

He was running E85 when we put it on the dyno.  We drove 300 miles to Richmond, Dynoed the car and drove 300 miles home.
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: *MAYHEM* on February 27, 2008, 09:25:35 AM
Quote from: bhazard;204367
Woot woot, a victory in the 2.3 vs 5.0 battle!

You know, I have one of each now and plan to keep them both that way. Does that make me Switzerland? :D
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: FLSTCI71 on February 27, 2008, 01:47:13 PM
I really didn't care if you went V8 or kept the Turbo 4, I just wanted the Ford to stay Ford. Putting a GM into a Ford is NEVER acceptable. (And I am a street rodder!)
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: Skunk on February 27, 2008, 02:12:26 PM
Or you just take that stock 5.0L core and turbo that. It will exceed your objective easily. I promise!!!

John
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: 4bangen on February 27, 2008, 02:18:07 PM
Quote from: Skunk;206603
Or you just take that stock 5.0L core and turbo that. It will exceed your objective easily. I promise!!!

John


ya, looking in to that as we tipe!
Title: 4bangen no more?
Post by: fordguy545 on February 28, 2008, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: Skunk;206603
Or you just take that stock 5.0L core and turbo that. It will exceed your objective easily. I promise!!!

John


till you put over 500 through it:mad: Two piece block ftl