When the heat was on this morning, I could swear I smelled antifreeze a little bit but just want to make sure it isn't my imagination.
While fighting odd cooling system issues, I want to rule out the heater core as being the culprit so I'm picking one up from Ford, along with a new blower motor. For over a year now when I have "heat" its kinda like its radiated heat - like the flap isn't moving over to the heater core side or whatever. The heat is a little "warm" but thats it. Both hoses on the firewall are hot to the touch and I can hear bubbles rushing through the dash when the thermostat opens. Does this sound more like a pinched vacuum line rather than a bad heater core? Also, looking at the water pump and heater tubes on the intake, isn't water always supposed to be flowing through the heater core, thermostat open or closed?
I'm not looking forward to this, but I'm sure my best bet for knowing is to unhook the hoses on the firewall and try blowing air through the heater core. Those hoses are a pain to put on/off.
Yes.
Turn the heat to the vent position. Let the car run with it off for a couple of minutes then turn the heat on. A slow leak will show itself as the smell being present for a few seconds and then it will seem to disappear. Shut the heat off again for a few. Repeat. It should happen again if there is a leak...
...Ford wanted $165 for a new blower motor. I figure while I'm in there it'd be a good time to replace that as wall but $160?!. Of course, for giggles, at the dealership its $750 in labor to replace the heater core.
Picked up a new radiator cap and going to replace the thermostat with a 180 degree one until I can figure out exactly whats up with the cooling system.
The heater core guide on Coolcats states otherwise, which is why I ask. It mentions heat when the tstat opens.
I've had heat with a t-stat stuck closed.....:dunno:
Well yeah...you're supposed to get GOOD heat when the thermostat opens. :)
The way the heater core is hooked up to the engine, there is always coolant going through, regardless of whether the thermostat is open or closed. The feed line to the core comes directly from the water pump via a coolant rail or a long hose, depending on the engine. Technically you can have a bad thermostat (stuck closed or open) and still get heat through the core, as Paul mentioned. But in a lot of instances it's not good heat when that happens. The core works much more efficiently when the thermostat is working correctly. Here is why.
Think of the water pump as sort of a "heart". It feeds two arteries at the same time: one to the heater core, one to the block. The amount of "blood" (coolant) remains the same; both systems pull from the same volume of coolant. So if one side is blocked (i.e. clogged core or bad thermostat), you lose some of the efficiency because the same amount of coolant is going to one "artery", not two like it's designed to do. When both are operating normally, then you get the correct amount of coolant to both the heater core and the block and efficiency is at its maximum. Plus, when the thermostat opens, it's letting the warmed-up coolant into the core...that's why you get the sudden burst of heat right after the thermostat opens when you watch your temp gauge.
Since the greater volume of coolant goes through the block, it's much more important that the thermostat works correctly, rather than the heater core. But it's better that both work as intended.
Does this car have ATC or manual MVAC?
Manual
Weird thing - on the drive back today, after the temp stayed at the top of the N for 15 miles, it suddenly dropped to over the M for 10 miles or so before the thermostat closed and the temperature shot back up. Top of radiator and hose was hot to the touch when I got back and the lower hose was "warm" with the temperature reading "O".
I took my temperature gauge back to the store last week since I know my problem isn't a faulty gauge - the thermostat, heat, and warmth of the radiator all act funny so need need to hold onto that $45 gauge at the moment. Just saying this so I don't get the "the factory gauge is far from accurate" speech - I know its only a reference, as are all the other gauges.
Lastly, this morning when I went to park the car, I popped the radiator cap off a couple times for a split second. Both times warm water sprayed out. The odd thing is after doing this, the temperature gauge dropped a few seconds later. What does relieving the pressure tell me? Lower radiator hose is collapsing?
...and when I went to lunch today, the gauge went up as the thermostat opened...stopped at "M". No going up to peak and dropping. Lots of bubbles being pushed through the system/heater core(sounds like thats where it is coming from anyways). Whats the hell is going on with this thing?
I'm thinking of bypassing the heater core and checking for exhaust gases in the coolant to pinpoint what the problem is. Semi easy way to test everything.
yeah...its finding time though. Those hoses on the heater core tubes are VERY hard to get off - especially with them being new and firm. Then there's always the kink of trying to make a hose make a 180 degree bend with an inch and a half of space in between tubes/4" from firewall. Its too freaking cold to be without the heater too!
Omg, I swear the entire car is cursed with this new motor. With the heater WORKING (still not at actual full heat though, like it was years ago), I popped the radiator cap and dumped another 1/2 gallon in. You would think I would either be seeing leaks or see steam coming out the exhaust or under the hood.
My transmission will also randomly jump out of gear and back in, even if I have it set to stay in 1st. Then this morning one of my headlights wouldn't come on...its fine now.
Is the coolant level ever low?
I guess. The overflow bottle keeps going empty, yet I don't have any leaks I can see, nor do I have a ton of white exhaust (only steam on startup in the morning). Exhaust smells fine - rich when cold and just "hot" after its warmed up. I would think that with the amount of water I keep seeming to put into the radiator I would have a trail of white behind me going down the road. Fluids are all still good in terms of no cross contamination but there's still the possibility of combustion pushing past the gasket since we only pulled the head off the bank that had the bad fuel injector - the other one may have a slight problem. That or I have a crack in the block...
I'm going to have to park the car until I get this figured out, whether its a problem with the motor, a bad heater core, or just a ton of air in the system - or a combination of the above.
do you get more heat sitting at an idle than driving?
Thats hard to tell but from the way it has acted over the last week, I would have to say on average, yes. In the morning the temperature gauge always seems to stay pegged at the top of "Norm" and no heat but later in the day the thermostat opens more and it seems to hang around the middle and I have some heat...and I can hear the water rushing. Either way, today's weather was cold and cold - it was snowing in the afternoon so I doubt temperature had much to do with it. When I parked it a few hours ago I topped the radiator off again and refilling the overflow bottle that was pretty much empty.
It really seems like I'm not getting any coolant flow through the heads until the tstat opens all the way. Both gaskets are on correctly though.
That motor is in the car?
and, do you only lose coolant when the car is driven, rather than at idle?
I haven't let it idle long enough to check that or even if its consuming coolant at all (all my gauges are up in Seattle at the moment). The motor's in the car and has a whopping 400 miles on it since rebuild (similar to '93 Cobra, compression and all, but with the cam from an '89 GT). When the head gasket on the drivers side blew from the fuel injector flooding the cylinder, it was the only cylinder that when compressed air was applied, the radiator began to bubble so I'm kinda hesitant to test them all again but likely will this weekend. Initial testing after the new head gasket and resurfacing of that head (up to .007 milled off now) showed that everything should be fine. We had a couple hours of burning coolant out the catalytic converter and it was clear afterwards.
I hope its not a HG, but it kinda sounds as if it may be.
My caddy did the same thing. it only lost coolant when driving at higher speeds, when the motor heated up.
Head gasket is just a weekend's worth of work and a few hours in the machine shop to resurface the head to verify its still perfectly smooth...a pain if we must do it but thats what a leak down test is for. If anything, I would hope theres a problem on the passenger side as we made sure everything was perfect on the driver's when we pulled the head - other than a horizontal line in one of the cylinders that had us worried but the block was checked for cracks long before we even had the thing machined and built (it is not the cylinder that had the bad fuel injector). Should have pulled the other side while we were at it but some of those things are a pain to unbolt! The other side's compression with nothing but idle time on the motor were all reading around 135psi though so we "thought" the bank was alright but I'm not sure now.
I'm looking at finding the problem before something gets worse. If that mark in the one cylinder IS actually a crack (unlikely, but I'm not ruling anything out), it'll be time to build up a Boss 302 or Dart block so I can start with a strong foundation for more than 6psi on some aluminum heads. The majority of the parts in the block now should be able to take 500-600hp if it weren't for the stock roller block and the rest of the drivetrain that I have waiting to install when it warms up.
I'm still seeing 17 traffic commute, 21-22mpg city, 30 highway in the car at the moment though. Apparently, after running a tank through the car, the gallons used thats shown on the tripminder is accurate. The engine's got a ton of vacuum which is nice to see as the valves appear to be adjusted properly.
I need an actual recent picture, but here's how the car sat after we finished bolting everything together and the car was running decent for once.
(http://home.comcast.net/~seekproj/IMG_1930.jpg)
Here's what the old motor looked like...beautiful :p
(http://home.comcast.net/~seekproj/IMG_1887.jpg)
I remember doing the HG on my cougar. ran it and the other side blew. Tried to save a couple bucks and the job took twice as much and twice as long in the end. what can you do.
If your adding coolant and you dont see drips/leaks, then best do a compression test.
do that first off.
next,
Check your fan clutch because if that is mostly defective but not yet completly broke, you just found the source of the coolant problem. With a bone cold motor, you should not be able to spin the fan a complete revolution with all your might.
To check if the heater core is busted, roll back the carpet on the pass side front and feel for moisture.
Not sure why your pricing a blower motor unless yours does not "SOUND" like it changes speeds. If it has nothing but "HIGH" then the blower motor resistor is easy to repair and will be the fault.
If you think your HVAC is not deflecting the ductwork to direct heat inside the car, there is a vac line just to the right of the glovebox area that may be defective or the hvac vac connnections have a leak.
good luck on issue, looping back the heater core hoses together can be done easy enough with any 90deg tubing of a reasonable size.
Btw,, yes the core has coolant all the time ,, hense the reason for the water pump "BYPASS" hose.
To get the old hoses off, use a razor blade and cut along the tubing then peal off the hose from the tubing to insure you do not jack up the core incase it is good.
The core was repalced by a user here who claims that she cut three sides of a rectangle out on the HVAC box and was able to extract the core out this new "door" created. the core was inserted and the plastic was folded back and duct taped. This sounds like the best idea to me.
Radiator is cool when this all happens - its not a fan issue. This fan even cools better than the Mark VIII fan I had on there that ended up having a faulty motor.
My blower on high sounds like it has a bearing or something thats about toast. If I end up replacing the heater core, I figure it'd be best to replace the blower at the same time. As far as a vacuum leak, I haven't ruled that out as a possibility since the problem came out of nowhere one day - some time after messing with indash wiring. I think this was done in the summer though so it wasn't noticed until heat was needed again a short while later. I just need to convert the thing over to rotary controls.
As far as everything else - I don't want to buy a second compression gauge since I have one up in Seattle so I'll likely wait until the weekend to pick it up. If need be, I may also end up picking up a leak down tester since they can be a lot more useful is the the compression seems to hold fine.
Incorrect, if the vacuum line is broken the hvac box will default to the defrost. The blend door is cable operated.
Cable operated? I thought the only thing done to swap over rotary controls was to deal with vacuum hoses - that'd mean there are no cables?
Either way, this is on hold till this weekend when I'll take it back up to Seattle and likely leave it there for a week until we can test a few things and if need be, yank the head and have the machine shop go over it again. I tried adjusting the idle and it just won't go up - after many turns and yanking the IAC. I think I may have an issue with my TPS sensor too. The car's cursed I tell you! It keeps idling too low and surging/dying. Its time to sit until I can hook the compressor up to each cylinder.
Edit:
Fluids are still all clear though. Its kinda seeming like its running lean, or thinks it is, at low speeds though and richening the mixture. I would think this would have a good chance of burning coolant as the culprit - as long as the fuel pressure remains steady during all of this. Again, won't know anything until I can get some readings from the motor to see what its doing inside. I can hope for the best but I am assuming the worst - passenger side head gasket or a crack.
Nope. Mr. Seek you have to use the early Taurus hvac controls that are cable operated. I've done several heater core swaps and even converted one car from manual to ATC. Been there done that, got the T-Shirt.
So unless something is binding up or a something is in the way of the blend door, its 99% chance of a plugged heatercore. Thanks for the insight ;)
Have you tried flushing it out? I take two 3ft long pieces of heater hose and stick one end in on of the slots in the hood along the side to hold it upright. I then poor CLR into the other hose and add water until I hear it coming up the other hose. Then I cram the other one up in another slot in the hood. Let soak :p
You can get a Siemens blower motor from partsamerica for $47.99 (PM251). Siemens is an OEM level supplier, so I'd trust it to be as good as a Motorcraft replacement.
How much CLR do you use for a heater core?
#2 cylinder isn't perfectly flat at the bottom water jacket between it and #1. Leakdown testing showed only water "drip" sounds coming from the motor on this cylinder, but when the air is turned off, it loses compression from 120psi to 0 in like 2 seconds. Head's pulled and waiting to be machined. Air from the chamber was bubbling out of the sensor hole in the heater tube. The piston was pretty clean when we got the head off. All the other cylinders look like they are performing great though, center of chamber burn and all.
This air pocket issue at this location (at the sensor) would describe why MANY of the problems I've been having have been occurring.
Odd thing I saw though is that I have a ton of nasty oil/coolant mixture on the bottom of the lower intake and being sucked up the pcv hose, yet the oil everywhere else (heads, pan, etc) looks great. I'm still not sure what this stuff is, but it was quite thick. Probably going to put a collector after the pcv to see if it keeps happening and why it is.
Glad you found the problem, No warpage on the block itself?
There doesn't appear to be. The head itself is very minor but enough to cause a poor seal at that spot.
Also, blew the heatercore out backwards and while some crud came out, it may not have been enough to cause a blockage. After more blowing, rusty water came out. Sounds like its time to try it out again and be ready to cap off the tubes on the intake if it begins to smell like antifreeze inside. I'm picking up the new heatercore today.
Heat's still the same - medium-warm at best. Now though, I get heat before the thermostat opens.
Haven't touched the heatercore besides blowing it out though.
Blew it out or flushed it out?
Blew it out. I bypassed it until I can figure out what else is going on with the motor.
I can't seem to fill the coolant properly for some reason. Today I parked at an entrance to a parts store that has a huge climb (like 45 degrees upwards) and got a bunch of air out/HOT steam after immediately turning the car off when the tstat opened. Topped it off when the pressure was relieved. Parked it and when I came back 3 hours later, it started doing the same thing - temperature gauge peaked and started blowing coolant out the overflow tube. I pulled over, loosened the radiator cap and let some fluid drain to the ground (like 1/2 cup maybe) - then the engine sucked the radiator dry again and I put more fluid in.
Head gaskets are confirmed good now and the heater core is bypassed, yet it seems like I still have hotspots in the motor. What am I doing wrong? Am I supposed to be some air in the radiator at all times? It sure seems like whenever I allow air into the system, it begins to work properly again.
I don't understand whats going on now. No matter what I do, the thermostat never operates properly until I relieve the system pressure. It has a new radiator cap from Ford, rated at 16psi. It blows and sucks from the overflow just fine.
i had to go back and read this from the top.
For your heat (raidiant symptoms), check and make sure that the 3way vac line is connected on the pass side engine bay. There will be one tiny little black line that comes out fo the pass side fire wall near the AC/Heater core, one from the vac dist block and one from the fender well pass side. This vac line not being hooked up ***WILL prevent the internal vac controls from operating.
You already mentioned the motor sounds bad so thats a different issue all together but still, check that vac line.
For the over heating....................
You did not explain how you did the leak down test. In every instance,, both valve covers need to be off. You need to rotate the crank so that each cylinder intake and exhaust valves are closed. Next you can insert air into each cyl with a tester that has no check valve. You can use an air compressor or a regular bike foot pump with what i have made up here. This just happens to be one of those times where i had all the proper junk lying around to make the tool i needed but im sure you have the professional version.
You never posted all your compression numbers so im not sure whats going on. your coolant is going somewhere and you said the oil is clean. the exhaust has to be dumping it out and therefore a blown hg. Compression numbers will tell you that right off the bat but usually if the compression numbers are confussing, a leakdown tester would be best especially if you are dealing with a hairline crack in the cyl wall or head. You might not see this problem in a normal cold motor condition if it is a hardcore crack because heat will asssist in expanding the metal and widen the gap. If your head or block is cracked, you may have to suck it up and do the leak down test or compression test with a hot motor.
I have attached a pic of my homemade leakdown tester that shows a fitting to add air and the fitting that came with the compression tester for the spark plug hole. The 289 heads use the larger fitting shown on my compression tester now but i stuck the fitting for the 302 on the leakdown so you can see.
if your not sure what i mean by the 3way vac valve thingajig for the hvac located in the engine bay along the pass side firewall,, i can find a pic of it and post.
I think the next thing you might wanna do is this..........
remove the coolant temp sensor and rig you up a fitting that will allow you to insert controlled air into the coolant system.
listen for air and watch for leaks. with this rig you will be limited to the radiator cap psi rating.
or............
buy that cap for your radiator that has an air fitting already on it so you can put air in the engine block that way.
insert air and watch / listen for leaks. with this rig you will have no real limit on psi insertion so dont go crazy ,, just pump air in and watch the guage.
[COLOR="Red"]In both cases above,, it would be best to isolate the radiator from the test so i have learned that a golf ball fits pretty good up inside each radiator hose after you add a clamp.[/COLOR]
please post your compression numbers with a cold motor and then a hot motor. Im hoping you see a difference for the sake of solving this frustrating issue.
With rockers both out and tightened down we pumped air into each cylinder at TDC (pain to find sometimes), turned the compressor off and watched how slowly or quickly the pressure would drop. After the new head gasket/resurfacing of head, the passenger side was consistent with the drivers. As far as compression, I'd like to get another check, but they were all in the 145-150 range (don't have the exact numbers written down here, but I have them somewhere). I don't think I'm introducing air into the system anymore, just having a problem with water not circulating until the thermostat opens - then it runs fine. I only seem to put in as much coolant as I drain out when I pop the radiator cap. Everything from gaskets and water pump to thermostat are the right parts and installed properly as verified by yanking parts and reinstalling them (I have like 3 sets of engine gasket kits now). The only thing that stuck out was a small nick in the upper to lower intake that I put a tiny dab of rtv on to help prevent a minor vacuum leak.
The engine runs much better than 2 weeks ago, just doesn't seem to heat up evenly throughout...and the transmission having its own shifting issues. I'd love to swap it out with a 4r70w though.
Mr new radiator cap got me good. I was going to replace it but forget before the car warmed up. The temperature gauge did its usual thing so I turned the car off and went to relieve the pressure at the cap. Mr new plastic motorcraft cap decided it would rather blow itself off instead of staying held on by its locking clips, bending the "threads" and all. I'm really surprised I haven't blown a hose off at this point as that geyser was MUCH more than 16psi that came out of that thing. First time I've seen that and the old cap that was on a week before the new head gasket got thrown back on. I'll see if it acts any better in the morning, but I'm sure it will as I've never had a problem with it and pressure. Of course, the overflow tube was like halfway full, not overflowing or low so I'm pretty positive the new cap may be the one causing all these problems (only put on to "fix" what ended up being a small leak at the headgasket - the old cap is at least 5 years old now).
Tip, even if the cap is supposed to hold until you push and twist, always look AWAY from the thing when loosening it. It got me good. Flushed my eyes out just to play it safe. Hand is burned somewhat good.
check your water pump... not too bad of a job and its only $20 for a stock replacement...
I had similar problems. I never was able to trace it back to a leak till I got a new radiator and hoses then it went away...
oh man,, sorry to hear bout the burns there. Tip for your.......next time throw a nice thick shop rag over the cap if you gotta remove it when hot.
question,, what are the odds your water pump is rotating the wrong direction internally?
It wasn't so much anything but the cap actually blowing off and getting me. A rag wouldn't have helped, just shot up at me also. I thought about the water pump thing but less likely being a replacement straight from ford. I'd assume that they may have the same water pump housing in the opposite rotation though?
Watching the water flow with the cap off would tell everything though, would it not? What exactly is the flow supposed to look like inside the radiator? Or would it be easier to pull the upper hose, aim it into a bucket, and wait for the tstat to open a little?
I'm telling you, I've never had so much bad luck with any parts of this car until just recently. the new motor, even if it does run exceptional compared to the old one.
If everythings kosher,... I would assume that you should have too man problems with all the bubbles. Sometimes I squoze the upper radiator hose and that seemed to help, but I'm sure that I had a blown head gasket...
But when you squeeze it you can tell because the fluid level will go up and down when you look inside when the t-stat is open. I dont think it did when it wasn't.
Today relieving the pressure at the radiator cap, enough to cause the pressure to go to the overflow tube, seemed to burp out a lot of air. Having other issues though - the overflow tube/pressure issues ended up causing problems with one of my igniter plugs, making it arc together and scorch the thing so now I'm out one headlight. I had it laid out so gravity wouldn't be an issue but obviously, with pressure I'm working against gravity. When I get a new plug, I'll have to find some new way of mounting my ballasts and igniters or just sealing the things up permanently...
My passenger side foglight is blowing fuses too so that side of the car has very little light right now. the borderline-sized overflow tube. Plus, my drivers side power lock is making a nice grinding noise now. Its falling apart all at once!
with a bone cold motor
remove the rad cap
start engine
add throttle
rad water level should drop
when you release the trottle, water should near overflow before it drops back inside the radiator.
If you can,, with a bone cold motor.........
gather the correct tools to remove the header bolts to x/h/y pipe.
start engine and run for about 3 min
stop motor
let it cool a little but not too long
undo the header bolts and take a peek up in the header.
see if there is moisture up in the header/which header ect.
im coming full circle here again but your gonna have to figure out a way to put air presure in the block.
isolate the radiator as mentioned previously
isolate the heater core by looping the hoses
put air presure into a rigged up adaptor in place of the coolant temp sensor (single wire).
add air then listen
if you hear air at the TB or at a specific header then go fetch a wooden dowel
stick the dowel to areas on the engine with your ear on the other end.
the closer you get to the noice, your wooden dowel to your ear will tell the tale.
once you narrow down the area, you'll probably find the problem and be able to isolate the bank with the problem or the area on the intake ect.
If i were you, i would also plug off the egr ports to on the rear of each head just to isolate that.
Also, Plug off the water hoses going to the upper intake at the TB to isolate that as well.
Have you checked the interior hoses for the emissions piece parts to see if they are saturated? the smog will dump a lot of water back into the burn cycle if water is getting in that area. It wont be a good sign if thats the case.
one other thought that comes to mind,,,, try to tighten down the lower intake. If the bolts were tightened but not enough, you could have a minor issue with the intake gasket seal to heads. If thats the case, there should be water collection along the lifter valley as well as all the sucking going in in the head runners especially at the first or last piston of each bank.
one other thing that comes to mind,,,,,,,,, did you silicone the head bolts? I think the bolts along the headers on each side pass through the water jacket while the ones along the rockers do not.
just trying to help,,,,,,,,, I know its cold up there and cold weather does not lend itself well to getting a good and actual torque on ice cold gaskets. You should have went about 15-20% over on your torques just to compensate for that. The engine warms up and suddenly everything stretches. You may have to go and retorque with a warm motor on all the bolts you think may have been fuggered up.
Heater core was bad and was leaking coolant down through the weep hole...I didn't even know that existed? Replaced but apparently I still have a cooling system leak somewhere.
I still don't have as much heat as the car had years ago.
After reading here from different threads about a restrictor being inside one of the heater core hoses, I looked up illustrations from Ford parts and talked with a service person. The illustration shows a restrictor being used only after '94, as says the service person I talked to. So whats the deal with this? Is the hose supposed to have one in it or not? My old one did not.
Also, all the hoses with a restrictor had a clamp on the outside to keep it in place.
Edit:
I almost forgot, does anyone know where to get the vacuum "tee"(its more than that) that the hvac controls hook up to on the passenger side engine bay? Mine was brittle and busted off so I have a screw in it to prevent a vacuum leak. Vents are stuck on defrost. The one from Ford is $93.
you'll just have to look around for more. I'm sure you can find that vacuum manifold fairly easily at a junkyard, if not, i'm sure other ones could be adapted. Thow a 1/4" socket in the hose if your that worried about a restrictor.
As in another thread, after talking with a 4th Ford person in parts, the hose is available and will be at the dealership on Wednesday. The restrictor is for what anyways? Preventing too much pressure buildup in the heater core? Thats my only guess as its the hose going TO the core, not from.
I just don't want to ever have to pull the dash apart again. That thing was a PITA, especially when the sun went down and 5 minutes later, it dropped like 30 degrees to below freezing (car frosted over within 30 minutes)! The blower was the major pain though - getting those bolt holes lined up.
on member here was able to cut threes sides of a rectangle into the hvac box and open the plastic up as though it were a door. She was then able to extract the heater core that way and replace with a new one.
Duct tape sealed the HVAC box back.
you go this thread running in circles,,,lol. I thought you were still having trouble even with the heater core hoses looped back.. Confussing as hell.,,lol
Heater core wasn't the problem with the cooling issue and its still there it seems. We put a 180 degree stat in (basically to help it run better/cool earlier for the time being), another radiator cap with a pressure relief lever, a new belt, and a lower hose with an actual coil inside and still having the problems. I get ~1psi drop in the cooling system after 20 minutes, pumped up to 15psi. I also pulled the sensors and the heater core tubes on the intake and rtv'd them back in to make sure it wasn't messed up the first time. Now its down to testing the motor and testing the radiator. I can't hear anything leaking though and not sure how to separate the radiator/motor to test each individually.
Best I can think of is pulling the upper intake and spark plugs, then using a hose to listen around more inside.
As for everything else, I have like 20 things going on with this car at the moment and working on fixing them all as weather permits. It was a clear/blue sky weekend so the heater core/blower motor was this weekend's main project. I still need a few hours on a nice day to replace the drivers side power lock and put the rest of the interior back together. I hope to have most of this worked out soon so I can rest and get ready for the suspension/rear end/brakes when it warms up a bit...then repainting the car again in middle-late summer as I don't like the thickness of paint/primer thats on it now. It'll be a "panel by panel" job so it can get to show quality, being wet sanded and everything. I'll likely stick with enamel as urethane sucked too much DIY.
Oh, and my replacement headlight wiring should arrive tomorrow as they're already here in Vancouver somewhere. I can finally get my passenger side light working again after being down for a week.
New symptom - now when I relieve the pressure, both hoses collapse until I turn it off again and restart. During this, it still doesn't take any more water. Whatever was collapsed in the hose gets pushed into the overflow, then it sucks it back in after relieving the pressure and starting the car again (edit: and it runs for a few minutes)
Air being sucked in at the water pump gaskets? Any other big possibilities I should check before looking again at the motor itself? Everything has been rtv'd other than the water pump and intake gaskets so its quite possible that BOTH are giving me issues. Of course, the head gaskets are gasket only. I'm pretty sure I didn't miss rtving any of the lower head studs.
Have you pressure tested the system?
I'd do that before anything else.
You can rent the tool from Autozone.
Yes, its leaking out somewhere at 1psi/20-30 minutes. I haven't checked the pressure when running though (my tool's not here at the moment).
and as a correction, the lower doesn't "collapse" exactly as I have a coil in there now, but I can see it pulling inward. Upper is as thin as it can get.
I done told you how to seperate the motor from the radiator.
GOLF BALLS!!
go back and find that reply of mine.
I'm also curious why the vacuum its pulling isn't sucking from the overflow. I should check to see if that hose is collapsing somewhere, as it isn't kinked. The overflow level is at hot/high when this happens. Even with an air leak somewhere, this suction should pull in from the overflow? It does eventually but not for like 5 minutes after relieving the radiator pressure.
Oh yeah, completely sorry. I forgot about that. I wouldn't think they'd be quite tight enough though? The dimples in the golf balls aren't the most desirable for plugging something.
Oh, and about the cold vs hot motor thing - I lose pressure in the system when cold so whatever it is, it isn't exactly minor. I think there's a good bet that whatever testing I do from here on out can be done with the motor cold. The coolant temperature sensors are also good places to watch for bubbles when doing a leakdown test. as they sit on both sides of the intake.
Seek.. Those rubber freeze plug replacements with the steel washer on top and a wing nut to tighten them would make excellent radiator hose stops.
Are those big enough? Either way, I'll figure something out. After all, the hoses ARE flexible. Right now the plan is to do the tranny Saturday morning, giving me time through the weekend in case I run into any issues, then start pulling the motor apart either afterwards on Sunday to 1) Retorque in lower intake 2) replace a heater hose with one from ford with the restrictor 3) rtv the water pump - I have 2 other sets of gaskets already anyways 4) Put on a new overflow hose (may do this tomorrow) and 5) test the radiator and heater core separately from the motor so I can know exactly how each one stands.
Would pulling vacuum in the motor help any with the cooling system? If It'd be easier to hear something this way, I'll do it as I already have a pump that can build to 28.5 inches of vacuum and of course, it has fittings that I can adapt to fit into one of the coolant sensor threads. Bought this for vacuum forming but it also comes in handy for other things (one being a/c systems).
Prior to Saturday I'll scour this thread again and look for any lost comments to give me ideas on things to check over the weekend. If anyone has any other suggestions, they'll be heard and addressed. Whatever it takes, I AM going to find the source. I'm just hoping it isn't an issue with either the block or the heads but heads I can manage if need be (will put gt40p-compatible headers on and find some p's to install). Block would mean the car will be going to the side for awhile so it can get a new aftermarket block and fresh buildup.
I thank you guys for all the feedback on this. It has just been troublesome dealing with so many things on the car right now but this and the transmission slipping are the last of them (for now).
I think home depot has various sizes of those wing nut rubber plugs.
Just a thought.
why not just put hose clamps on over the golf balls? Get a threaded pipe with a end cap on it and stick it in the hole...
Water pump was sucking up air through the weep hole...a very faint line of water out the weep hole was visible upon very close inspection. Replaced the pump and on one heat cycle, everything worked great and bled itself out. Didn't have time to run it anymore but things look good now. Still need to repressurize the system to verify.
Ford "genuine parts"
After seemingly being fine for 2 weeks and the radiator being full when cold (unlike before), the system is showing signs of air still getting in. I think the next test is just putting dye the cooling system, letting it pressurize, and looking for leaks. Pull the plugs when warm and crank over, looking for dye coming out the cylinders. I honestly don't know where to look next.
On another note, heat was there when driving but in stop and go, it went away and the temperature began to rise. Relieving the pressure shoved a lot of air through the overflow. Verified that the radiator was cold and upper hose was barely warm until this pressure was relieved, where it then got very hot. This after the system ran fine for 20 minutes until I hit the traffic. I pulled over when the thermostat was supposed to be opening and relieving the pressure only squirt a little cool stream out the side so there wasn't an air pocket at that point.
Doing dye, its time to double check EVERYTHING once more from the beginning.
Dye isn't showing any leaks...and oil glows faint green/yellow straight out of the bottle so its hard to see if any is escaping into the oil. I also ran the car but without any luck. Would the UV dye stain the spark plugs if I pull them tomorrow or does it stop working under those temperatures? Either way, pulling them and repressurizing the system will tell me some about the cylinders from the heads down to the cylinder walls if I see anything bright yellow come out of the cylinders when cranking. At the rate I'm losing pressure now, this thing has to show up somewhere soon. Lose 6psi in like 2 minutes and since I don't see any leaks, other than where I get water out of the fill hole at the radiator when swapping the radiator cap and pressure tester, the engine bay stays perfect. It has to be internal.
I think what you are describing is a "check valve". It only allows air to move in one direction. Toward the main vacuum tee.
On the HVAC side of the valve you also have a hose to the vacuum reservoir tank. When you have no manifold vacuum you still have vacuum on the HVAC side.
Have you tried back flushing the engine? Take the T-Stat out and run water into the top radiator hose and out the bottom. You may have crud blocking some of the passages in the block. The flow can be so slow in these areas that the water boils and vaporizes.
On your leak down test. Try doing it with the pistons at bottom dead center instead of TDC. This may better show a crack in the cylinder wall.
BDC isn't possible as either the intake or exhaust valve is then hanging open? If it isn't perfectly TDC, the air pushes the crank one way or the other down to the bottom of the cylinder and air starts shooting out one of the two valves...
I already got a replacement vacuum tee. I'll try the backflow thing but I don't think that'd be the issue as the block was checked all around for these things, cracks, etc last fall. I doubt something got lodged in a water jacket between then and now but its just one more thing to test to verify for.
When the water pump was replaced, I started to have heat pretty rapidly after starting the car. Water flows great up until around the point that the thermostat opens where I lose heat all of a sudden and temperatures begin to spike - yet the upper hose is hardly warm.
Later today I'll be cranking the motor, then pulling the spark plugs, then cranking some more to see if I get anything coming out the holes.
Try running it without a thermostat. Start it with the cap off to see if you have good flow through the radiator.
Put the cap on and put some cardboard in front of the radiator to warm it up.
Drive without the thermostat and see how it behaves.
Doing so just causes the overflow level to drop slowly. This is the 3rd thermostat thats in it - a 180 degree this last time to help prevent overheating (open sooner) until this is figured out.Letting the thermostat open, turning the car off, and restarting the car shows tons of water flow although at this point, some coolant has to be added to it.
On another note, I did the tests that I could on the cylinders...my compression tester is apparently left in Seattle again. I ran the car until hot, turned off fuel and spark and cranked the motor over. I cranked it over twice more in the next 2 hours to make sure anything in the cylinders didn't bake away. The 2nd and third times, the radiator cap was pulled and 20psi applied to the system. It got dark and I cranked it once more, then pulled the spark plugs. Spinning it some more, nothing is coming out of the cylinders. All spark plugs look great and identical. I did find one small leak coming from the hose going away from the heater core and I'm not sure what thats about as it should have very little pressure as it goes back to the water pump.
I would do more but it seems someone put some of my tools away in their tool cabinet and I didn't grab them when I left last time.
If you start it up with the radiator pressure tester on it, do you see any pressure change or pulsing?
I think if you start off wth a fresh cup of coffee,, read your own topic and each post,
you will see where you have ignored most of the posts (and possible sollutions) and made this more difficult on yourself.
Vancouver folks like to do all the talking anyway cause the rest of the world doesnt exist:D . I know first hand.
I'm going over it all again this weekend. I'm changing the oil tonight as it is showing signs of water contamination and I don't want that on my bearings. I ran a compression test on a cold motor with this old oil which quickly became watery the last day or so (and the car has taken 1.5 gallons of coolant since yesterday morning! Big increase over the little it was for the last 2 weeks). I have one potential worry which I found but if I remember right from the old motor, this was common. Cylinder #4 got a light coat of oil/coolant on the compression tester's fitting's threads. I know my old motor used to suck up from the pcv pretty bad on this and somewhat on cylinder #8 so I am "hoping" thats all I'm seeing. I have a Cobra intake with the smaller galley cover which are known to suck up oil.
Compression with the above oil on a motor that has been cooling for roughly 3 hours (will change the oil after writing this - it should be cool enough), from cylinders 1 to 8:
149
149
150
153 (little oil/coolant on fitting threads here)
151
154
155 (cylinder 7 that had a stuck fuel injector months ago that blew a headgasket)
152
Compression looks good for how it sits at the moment and all pump up ~90, 125, 145, and finally ~150. I will get a new reading with fresh oil (going straight 30 weight while it sits and until I yank the upper intake off this weekend and install better lifters at the same time) just for the hell of it if weather permits tomorrow. It has been snowing, hailing, sunny, raining, everything the last week until today...April 1st. At least it hasn't played an April fools joke on me yet while out there messing with the car.
What do you guys think about this one cylinder? I know for a fact that I had the pcv sucking up coolant before when the headgasket was blown and wouldn't be surprised if the upper intake has a pool in it again. I really need to install a little catch bottle on that hose...
*edit*
Oh, and all spark plugs show varying degrees of light white coating that wipes off fairly easily. Either its running lean or all cylinders are burning coolant.
you need to snug down / re-torque your head bolts with a warm motor.
also check your intake upper and lower.
see, thats the thing about putting hardware on in the cold. bolts and parts shrink in the cold. There are various thoughts on this but in the winter or cold seasons especially, re-torque after the motor is a little warm.
that will even out your comp numbers i think. Looks like one bank yields some better numbers than the other.
Im getting to the point i forgot what the original problem was,,,, does the motor start and run? last i remember it was not running then suddenly it was then it wasnt,, then its getting hot.
Didnt you say you had a shop put this engine back together? id be calling them. I thought you had this thing rebuilt by a shop or something. with numbers like that , id pe kinda pissed.
stuck injectors dont blow headgaskets.
stuck which way,,open or closed.
if closed, then the piston will simply sit there and cycle up and down keeping a nice breeze going across the top of is piston.
if open,, the fuel will dump and likely thin out the oil. The cylinder and head will carbon up and eventually weak spark will occure due to a fouled plug, which wont take long. If your really unlucky, Too much fuel might crack a compression ring. I cant see a stuck open injector being the "CAUSE" of a blown head gasket.
maybe someone will correct me if im wrong but i just dont see either senerio being the root cause.
want my honest opinion,,?
I think you need to tear this bitch back down and start from scratch. you've spent wayyyyyy too much time looking at the surface.
Both heads ended up being remilled the same amount after all was done - .007 I believe. I will retorque everything when "warm" this weekend as I'll be yanking the intake anyways so its the perfect chance.
The problem has come and gone and done different things that apparently seemed to fix themselves. It started with no start but there was fuel and spark. This was intermittent and went away by itself...then it went to dealing with head gaskets from bad fuel injectors, etc. For the last 6 or so weeks I've been finding time every few weekends to do something on the car to move forward but haven't had enough time to do all the testing I'd like - weather has not been good on the weekends I've had available. From what I'm seeing, I may be yanking the timing cover and lower intake off and resealing them so I can know for certain that they are fine. I'm hoping its a lower intake leak because after all, it DOES have to mate up with two different surfaces and get close enough to the block to seal with the rubber gaskets (plus rtv). Timing cover is a little more of a pain to yank...
Machine work and checks were done in a shop but the engine was built in a clean garage (and bagged when sitting) with all new bolts, gaskets, etc. Rebuilt fuel injectors and reused the fuel rails from the car. Heads were freshened up (only had 30k miles) at the shop. The cam was reused without needing anything. New timing chain, 2 water pumps, 3 thermostats, cleaned out smog pipes and such. The motor "shouldn't" be having these problems but the only way to know is to tear it all down again and check each gasket mating surface in search of the leak.
Other than some stupid mistakes we've run into (one being missing fuel which turned out to be the cutoff being partially unplugged), it still appears even after tearing much of it down that we've had more problems with parts than with the way things were installed. An exception being the heads were initially on backwards - smog pipe holes and all :p Waste of a couple hours and $50 in head gaskets.
All I know is that the bad fuel injector cylinder blew the gasket between it (cylinder 7) and cylinder 6 - down near the water jacket. I'm not saying there wasn't an issue beyond that but I don't think it dumping fuel into that cylinder helped matters. Pulling the spark plug out, fuel just dumped out the hole. We had to disconnect the y pipe just to place it as safe as possible so nothing happened there either as fuel was dumping into the exhaust. Either way, it was just a dangerous situation and I used up half a tank before I knew what was going on. At least this told me the fuel pump didn't have a problem.
I'm honestly just wanting to start over with a decent Dart or BOSS block, some fresh gt40p heads, 24lb injectors, etc. I would build the above blocks with 8.5:1 compression to give me room to play with a vortech. Whatver I can do for power but keep from having to pay 50 cents a mile in gas I'll do (still pull 31mpg average tops with this motor and 27-28mpg when more heavy footed). For all I know, the block's got some weird crack somewhere that is impossible to test for without tearing the block down. I'm not sure of anything anymore but thats what the weekend(s) are for.
Either way, I know what I'm looking at next and its easy to test before putting it back together as I just need to pressure the system before bolting all the topend back together after the intake or timing cover.
it would be nice if you cold loop back the heater core hoses , stuff a golf bull up in each rad hose and clamp.,,
then remove the coolant temp sensor (single red wire) and use that hole to insert air.
then you could listen for the leak and isolate where on the motor the defect is.