After everything was fine it seemed, I went to bleed my coolant system and it was taking awhile to warm up so I put the car into drive to put a load on the motor. It began to surge up and down before the thing died and it won't start...again. This is the same problem we had Saturday night that seemed to go away yesterday after doing a bunch of tweaking. Saturday we had 38psi fuel and had spark but it wouldn't start. I'm assuming this is the case now also but most of my gauges and such aren't with me anymore.
What would cause this?! We ran a new ground wire to the block and it apparently didn't help. Ignition coil is new and we have power at the coil on both wires. We have spark. Next step?
Its not even acting like its firing and I'm not sure why. TFI module?
...after it sat for 30 minutes, it fired right up again.
I'm leaning towards TFI or PIP
I can't get it to die again...any ideas? I need a problem that I can reproduce, not one that fixes itself randomly.
On another note, I got the system bled and thermostat and heater are working properly/in unison again. No more tstat open, temp drops, heater cold, tstat close, temps rise, heater gets a little warm, tstat open...all while the gauge is going crazy.
any codes after the surge up and down?
Just EGR 33 which never goes away, old engine or new (same throttle body, egr, iac). It isn't opening apparently but its not the valve as its fine with vacuum applied. I'll get to this problem someday.
I'm banging around on things and moving wires around and its acting like nothing's wrong. It won't die again.
was it running and warmed up when it died? or did it die of the startup?
It was running for a few minutes but taking too long to warm up (its like 25 degrees right now) so I put it into drive, it surged I think 3 times, getting lower and lower in the rpm's, before it died and wouldn't start. Something was up with either the timing at that point or the injectors weren't firing. I can't think of any other reason.
Vacuum is I think 16-19 at idle and revs to like 24-25 at 2000 rpm's normally. Idle is ~1100rpm's when in park and ~700-850 according to the "factory gauge" when in drive depending on if its warmed up or not. It was idling at like 800 when I first put it into drive for a second or so before it began to surge.
...I was supposed to get a call back from Ford but they didn't call so I called them back. "Oh, that department closed early today due to the holiday." Thanks to the earlier person who told me they were open till 10pm. Another two joyful days of having to use a relatives car for commuting instead of only one. I was hoping to get facts on what they charge for electrical diagnostics, what if it can't be reproduced, what if they "fix" something that wasn't the problem to begin with, etc. I'm tired of dealing with these little problems that aren't logical.
You'll pay them for diagnostics and won't know a bit more than now...
Possibly it loaded up and flooded, IF it does it again hold it to the floor while cranking... Will activate the dechoke mode and shut off the injectors...
Already tried that, it wouldn't start when holding it down. I need to find how to check the pickup coil as that'll be my next step tomorrow. All my diagnostic stuff, except a couple parts like multimeter, code reader, etc are all still up in Seattle. I thought we had this fixed because of a new ground wire but I was wrong.
I'm telling you, it doesn't make a bit of sense. Either way, I'm still leaning towards no PIP signal or screwy ignition from the TFI module. I don't know how to test it when its working fine though.
edit:
Also, thats why I was waiting for a call from Ford - to see exactly under which cirspoogestances I owe them money and when I don't. If this dealer is one of them "pay whether or not we find the problem" locations, I'll look elsewhere or start throwing parts onto/into the distributor.
I'm guessing it was getting fuel when it wouldn't start
Perhaps. Fuel pressure doesn't mean much without watching the injector pulse though. If I can get it to die again, I need to check for that. Whatever it is, it is completely intermittent. I've tried all the plugs, contacts, etc of connectors at the coil, distrubutor, "salt and pepper" things by the intake, etc and none of them fixed the problem, nor does moving wires around so I don't "think" its a contact/wire issue.
When it dies see if you get spark. If not you know it's an ignition problem. I had an intermitent problem with my 95 doing the stalling thing for no reason. It was the pip sensor. If you have no sprak when it stalls then it's probably either the pip or tfi module.
Yeah, I'll have to check that again if I can get it die again. On Sunday morning when it wouldn't start (first saw the problem on Saturday night when I got up there - it was dark and cold so it was put off until Sunday) we had spark though and fuel pressure at the engine.
I'll check the black connector tomorrow and see if its loose as it controls injectors and the idle air valve. Its possible the surging had to do with the IAC not working right and the fuel injectors cut out due to the same problem with the connector. The contacts are clean on it though and pushing it together didn't help earlier. I would think that if it were loose, it would have had a problem during the drive back last night.
I'm about ready to just buy an entire new distributor and drop it in - new everything. Is the Motorcraft TFI module really $150 by itself?! Pickup coil is another $70.
Edit:
Last question for the night:
What should the voltage be reading at the coil's connector when the engine is cranking? It may be related or not, who knows, but I figured I'd look into it. Cranking, I get ~10v at the connector (digital multimeter), 11.5v with engine in run position without engine running, no idea what I get when the engine's running. I'm assuming the lower voltage is only because its pulsing but who knows. I just don't like how any of these aftermarket coils are 7400 ohms when the factory one was a couple thousand more.
OK remember this... It takes spark, fuel pressure & INJECTOR PULSE for the engine to run... If it has spark.... It's a fuel problem...
The TFI or PIP is not the problem IF it has spark... Same signal that fires the coil is also sent to the EEC to let it know to fire the injectors... Doesn't leave much huh??? Just a bunch of wiring, a EEC relay and maybe the EEC(I doubt that)... Possibly it has a interment loss of fuel pressure(maybe the F/P relay or fuel cut off is flaky)...
As far as Ford diagnosing the problem, dream on... If it ain't happnin' they won't have a clue what to do... I'll gaurentee they will either tell you to bring it back when the problem reoccurs, or just start throwing parts at it...
Not that this is your answer, but it sounds similar to the prob I had when I bought my truck so going to share that experience
91 F250 351 EFI
Ran cold, ALWAYS ran cold gauge read cold, heater blew cold, but the truck ran fine. Talked to the previous owner who said it had always run cold, that’s just where it ran.
BS! So I change the thermostat, nothing else just remove the old one (was broken in two pieces) nothing came off that motor other than the thermostat housing and some coolant loss. Reinstalled the new Thermostat and gasket, refilled the radiator, started it up and it ran fine till it warmed up. Then all hell broke loose on that thing, bucking and kicking, spewing coolant out the overflow, Died and wouldn’t start.
I was thinking WTF how ya blow a engine up changing a thermostat?
Let it cool off again, then it started fine.
Let it warm up and it shuddered a bit as it got warmer then leveled off and has been fine for months now.
Best answer I could come up with from the sources I used was that the computer had adapted over the years to the cold running temperature. Once the temp rose up from the new thermostat it OD’d the computer and freaked it out. It needed a few starts for it to adjust itself. At the suggestion of somebody I removed the battery cable and let it sit over night then started it again just to be sure.
Never did find a better answer, but like I said, truck runs great and get’s warm
Fuel pump or pip/tfi
Any possibility of the ECU causing it? I may buy a second one just to try and sell if it isn't the problem. I have yet to reset the computer after last night's issue as it didn't seem related but its certainly possible, especially since there was still some air in the system until last night.
I need to get the problem to happen again so I have time to test the PIP signal at the ECU (have it hanging back out now so the wire is accessible...whichever it is, I forget - pin 56 or something like that). To me it certainly looks like no injector pulse but if I can get it into a no spark condition, it'd explain a lot. Otherwise, I can just pull a spark plug when it happens and look for fuel or lack of.
I need to find a way to reproduce it though! Trying to loosen up connectors a little still allows it to start right up - black connector on intake, coil, and tfi module cable all seem like they are making great contact. ECU's harness is screwed in all the way.
Sadly, I must work until probably 7pm tonight so I can't test much until tomorrow. I'll give it a try though - let it idle for 5 minutes, put into drive, and hope it surges/dies. I'm so tired and frustrated right now, I'm losing my ability to think straight and diagnose these things in the proper order.
1) Get to die...needs to happen. I need ideas on ways to make this happen and not something that won't help me.
2) Check for spark at a plug. If none, check at coil. Move towards ignition switch or towards distributor depending on condition.
3) Check for PIP signal at ECU since its already in the car and yanked out. If none, test at TFI module. If yes, check at an injector? Depending on what I find, move towards whatever is logical.
4) If for some reason these both test out, I won't be able to get a fuel pressure reading at the moment as my gauge isn't with me. Every time in the past we've tested it though, it read 38-39psi, don't remember what it read when running. This at start should be plenty though and it doesn't bleed off very quickly (maybe at 30psi after an hour iirc)
Disconnect the SPOUT and take the ECU out of the spark equation.
Not quite, the injector pulse to the EEC is picked up from the same output that fires the coil...
Yeah, I'm not sure if its easy to test the computer. When the PIP signal gets to the computer, does it send anything back out on another wire I can test?
I picked up a Motorcraft TFI module and pickup coil "just in case" so I'll have it on hand if I get the problem reproduced and it points to one of the two being bad. The dealership even price matched and surpassed the price on the Motorcraft parts to what Partsamerica had on their site so I saved $70 or so over what they were charing. The guy remembered a call earlier in the day from me about these and mentioned something about a lower price elsewhere and pricematching it so I said what the hell, sure. Got the pair for $200. Hopefully I won't need them though...
On a related note, are the distributors in our cars different than the Mustang's? Cast iron vs steel gears? Just curious. I'm using the distributor that came from the HO motor along with the thing's cam.
I'll throw this one out there. may not even help.
Any chance of water freezing in the fuel line? I remember you said it was 25 deg.
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
The TFI fires the coil when it gets the SPOUT (Spark Out) pulse from the EEC.
Disconnect the SPOUT and the TFI fires the coil without any output from the EEC.
Okay, well, I didn't get too far yet and I'm waiting for the engine to get cold again/reset the computer. After idling for 2 minutes, I put into drive, it bounced up and down like 50 rpm's for ~30 seconds before it got worse and worse and died. Trying to start the car sounded like it tried to fire a few more times before it died completely and just spun doing nothing. This time holding the gas pedal down and cranking it brought it back to life, put it into drive, it surged a couple times +/- 50 rpm's and settled at ~800 rpm's...and wouldn't die again.
I still need to verify but I only think it happens when the engine's cold...so right direction to look next? I only got to test the flickering at the coil's connector when turning over before I got it running again.
edit:
Got it back together, idle and rpm transitions are much smoother again like it was on Sunday. Into drive, it settled at an rpm and stayed there. Still need to get an accurate reading of the transmission fluid level as it still wants to slip - a job for tomorrow while trying to reproduce the problem again. I should have almost all afternoon to diagnose - and in the daylight. I think the problem is still there but masked by the computer relearning what it wants to do.
OK, so what has killing the advance have to do with his problem??? Timing is static till the engine fires, then it is advanced...
Missing SPOUT pulses from the EEC = no spark.
SPOUT unplugged = spark at base timing.
We have a 91 Ford F150 that kinda sorta not really does the same thing. Every blue moon when the planets are aligned it will start right up and run great. After a few minutes it dies and wont start for another year or two. I've measured the fuel pressure at the rail and it reads 50lbs when the engine isn't running and it has a strong spark.
No luck so far today in killing it again. I'm having a little trouble adjusting the idle as restarting the car after setting it makes the thing surge so I bump it up, the computer compensates by closing the IAC, and I'm back where I started. Not enough surging to kill it, but enough still. Maybe I am supposed to be setting the idle in drive instead of in park? Don't remember. I'll be putting a few miles on it in a few minutes to get the computer learndid.
Did codes again with the engine still cool, got codes 21 and 33 which is to be expected.
Put some miles on it...with 2.73's performs the same as the SO motor did off the line. Haven't taken it on the freeway yet and done any WOT runs but so far the thing feels exactly like the old motor at speeds below 50mph. I'm sure the stock exhaust manifolds and pipes are holding it back some but whatever, as long as it'll run for now and get me through emissions in the next few weeks. Fluids are all still good but I can still hear bubbles in the heater core.
...it still won't die.
LOL if you say so... In my book missing is same as none...
I've fired a coil from a TFI dist, with them both on the work bench, using a 12v power supply... Not a EEC in sight...
The TFI can tell when the spout is hooked to the EEC and won't fire unless it gets a pulse on the spout.
So the question is: Should I replace the TFI module and stator just for the hell of it? It'd rule out the likely culprits of this problem that has hidden itself once again. If its not these or the ECU, what else is there other than an interconnect issue?
Although unlikely, over the last 5 days the problem has grown less and less severe as the car gets used again - it sat for a month. At the current rate, the problem will disappear and not come back until the bad part completely fails. At least the mechanical part of the entire thing seems to be good so here's to hoping for another 200k+ miles as long as gasoline remains available.
I got more recommendations today on the "ignition module" as being the likely problem, but because the problem only seems to happen within the first 10-15 minutes of running, they are kind of hesitant since its usually the opposite of heat cycles that holds true. Perhaps its during initial heat expansion that the problem is occurring? Of course, no one has any tips for reproducing the issue.
Actually Softtouch I think for the absolute first time ever you might be wrong. A TFI does not need an eec to fire nor does the eec Need the TFI to pulse the injectors. The PIP takes care of this.
is it possible the eec is on its way out? because its act ing up interment and doesn't show until it wants to be seen. i know its rare for the eec to go but it shouldn't be ruled out as well.
just a random thought... Maybe it could be the computer itself; faultering when it comes to computer-controlled advances in timing. I would suggest disconnecting the in-line spout connector and observe if there is a change in symptoms...
I posted before I finished reading the thread... oops.
I drove it to work this morning - other than it surging up and down when in drive and still cold (so I bumped the idle to get me to work - 900 rpm's now), it didn't die. Also got the floor mat out from under the pedal so it'd WOT easier. Goes from 50 to 70mph in second gear like nothing and revs very smoothly. Still have air in the coolant though...it won't bleed out all the way!
did you notice any changes when hitting a bump? usually if its a bad eec if you hit a bump you can hear the engine rpm change since it is controlled by the eec.
Only thing I notice over bumps is my rear suspension on my passenger side squeaking...that'll be fixed when I swap in the TC rear with new control arms and bushings. Still not sure if I want to keep the 3.55's in there.
Edit:
Still running well. I'm getting code 13 though - idle too low. The idle in park is like 1200 rpm's though! Something's not right about this.
Looking online, this just means idle out of spec? That'd be understandable. Perhaps my code book is wrong. It said 12 was idle too high.
Whatever it was, the problem hasn't resurfaced since. I didn't change anything.....
On another note, either I had a ton of air in my heating system or there may be a tiny head gasket leak somewhere. Fluids are all still clean but after dumping another 1/2 gallon into the car, the thermostat is again working properly. I'm hoping its just air burping from the system but I'm not believing anything until the car gets more miles on it.
Tranny is at the full mark but still slipping when its cold. I don't think its liking the fresh fluid.