General => Lounge => Topic started by: Thunder Chicken on January 21, 2008, 07:03:48 PM
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: Thunder Chicken on January 21, 2008, 07:03:48 PM
Just sitting around, going totally shackwacky with this God-ed cold weather, and thinking. Yes, I know, I should stop before I hurt myself.
Anyway, I've been wondering what may have been - more specifically, what would have happened had Ford continued developing the Windsor engines instead of going modular? Would we have seen aluminum blocks, like GM's LSx? How about split port heads? They worked pretty good on the ol' Esshag, almost bringing the V6 up to 5.0 power levels. What would have happened had Ford developed split port heads for the Windsor, or even had they done like GM and developed an all-new engine with aluminum blocks but retaining pushrods?
I used to deride GM for sticking with pushrod engines while Ford and Chrysler joined the rest of the world with overhead cams (and then Chrysler did an about-face with the Hemi). I used to thing of them as primitive. Ten years of LSX engines have changed my mind. The LSX engines are powerful, compact, lightweight, and modern while still being simple. A single cam in the engine block makes things like cylinder deactivation and even variable valve timing that much simpler to apply. Mopar has even come up with a way of doing VVT by using a camshaft inside a camshaft.
The Ford Modular engines exhibit very few of the so-called advantages that an OHC engine is supposed to have over an OHV engine. They're huge, they're heavy, they don't rev, and without supercharging they're not particularly powerful. Even the name of the engine - MODULAR - is misleading. Modular implies that the engine belongs to a family of engines that share a good deal of interchangeable components, or "modules". Didn't happen. There was no modular V6. There was no modular I-4. Instead there was a short deck V8, a tall deck V8, and a tall deck V10. Heck, even within the modular engine family there's a lot of divergence on what should be standardized parts - 2V heads, 3V heads, 4V heads, PI heads, different timing covers and valve covers, etc. The so-called "modular" engine introduced a whole lot of complexity and higher cost with very little, if any, return.
A few years ago I'd heard a rumour that Ford was going to return to pushrods with the hurricane engine. The boss 302 racing block fueled those rumours even further. I knew it wasn't true because Ford wouldn't look "back".
I'm now wondering if they really were looking ahead with the modular.
So what does this have to do with fox T-Birds and Cougars?
Well, right now, if you want to install a modern Ford V8 into your beloved ride you've got to replace your K-member and wedge a fat, heavy 4.6 in that won't make as much power as a 5.0 with a decent set of heads and intake. Imagine instead being able to go to a police auction and buying a 5.0-liter all-aluminum V8 with split port heads belting out 300-350 horses wrapped in a decommissioned old early 2000's Crown Vic and swapping that drivetrain into your car. No new K-member required, and if Ford would have done it right (we're taking dream scenario here) you could even bolt up your existing tranny. No extra weight over the front axle (in fact it'd be lighter than your existing iron 5.0). No ridiculously underpowered (in stock form) results for your efforts.
In other words, you'd be able to do exactly what GM guys can do right now. In fact, in my opinion it'd make more sense right now to swap an LS1 into a T-Bird than it would to swap a modular in. By abandoning the small block and replacing it with something bigger, more expensive, more expensive to modify, and that makes less power, Ford handed the current and future "hot rodding" market, the one that was previously dominated by the SBC but which was just starting to accept the Windsor, back to Chevy.
Yeah, I know... just dreamin'...
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 21, 2008, 07:35:45 PM
Carm,
I've been preaching this forever. The whole Romeo/Windsor modular throws an even bigger wrench into the mix with the non-standard heads, timing components, etc.
The mod motor is a dog, and yes I have grounds to say that, I drive a "260HP P.I. 2V SOHC" and it barely keeps up with an LT1 Impala from 7 years before it! It saddens me as to the potential the CVPI might have had with a "real" engine in it's place. There's quite a few guys on CVN (CrownVic.Net, basically the FTBCF for Panther cars) swapping 351's into their 00-07 CV's.
The fact that it's easier to swap an LS1/T56 into a 87-88 TC over any mod motor is ridiculous. (So ridiculous John and I are doing just that). Not to mention 100 more HP then a mod motor, STOCK!
If only...
As a note, the "Hurricane" was reported to be pushrod. MM&FF even had pics of the "prototype" in a Pro 5.0 racecar and called it as such (looked pushrod to me, it was narrow compared to a 4.6). Now they're saying it's SOHC/DOHC but the "spy pics" are just a regular mod motor?
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on January 21, 2008, 08:19:21 PM
Carm, now you have me pissed off(at Ford), course I usually stay that way...
Michael ...
I tried to join you in the PI... Was unmarked dark blue 2000 CV at the auction last Sat... Was real decent(dirty inside as usual) with 110K mi, but was marked bad rear end on the windshield... Told my buddy to go up to $1350(including bidders fee), sold for a $200 more... I probably should have had him GO for it... Had a new engine installed at 77K mi...
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 21, 2008, 08:52:41 PM
You want a 2001 or newer, the 2000's don't have the "Performance Improved" PI motor. I paid $2450 for a 2001 with full department history, no accident's, and 120000 on the clock, even had brand new cop-spec tires.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87 on January 21, 2008, 08:55:53 PM
ford -1 chevy +1
sleeper for putting a chebby in his bird +1
;)
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 21, 2008, 09:15:49 PM
When you going to pull the SBC for an LS1? ;)
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87 on January 21, 2008, 09:17:18 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;199168
When you going to pull the SBC for an LS1? ;)
im not lol they will have to get a bunch cheaper for me to even consider one.
Gotta love these cheap parts :D
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: oldraven on January 21, 2008, 09:30:32 PM
OHC is older technology than Pushrods. I wouldn't take a MOD for my T-bird if it was given to me........ I wouldn't swap to a 302 either, but you know what I mean. They never were that impressive, are huge and heavy, and do not sound good at all. I've driven two MODs now, and they felt and sounded like big V6's. V6's are nasty!
Preach on, Preacher man!
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 21, 2008, 09:31:45 PM
I dunno, starting to find complete LS1/T56's with wiring and guarantee's to run for under $2000 delivered! Found a couple of totaled LS1 f-bodies around here for under $2K for the whole car. Sell the wheels, interior, and any undamaged body parts you might even break under $1000 total investment.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: daboss351 on January 21, 2008, 09:34:39 PM
Quote from: oldraven;199172
OHC is older technology than Pushrods. I wouldn't take a MOD for my T-bird if it was given to me........ I wouldn't swap to a 302 either, but you know what I mean. They never were that impressive, are huge and heavy, and do not sound good at all. I've driven two MODs now, and they felt and sounded like big V6's. V6's are nasty!
Preach on, Preacher man!
what are you talking about? since when do the 4.6l sound like a 6?
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 21, 2008, 09:49:41 PM
Mine sounds OK, but I guarantee the same Flowmaster 40's on any other V8 sounds better! Here,
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87 on January 21, 2008, 10:15:44 PM
lol let me get in on this video posting
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MNavxrnYZFU
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: daboss351 on January 21, 2008, 11:02:49 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OuDkwTk1lP8&feature=related aero thats the best gto one i found o man makes me actually think about buying a chevy product!
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: EricCoolCats on January 21, 2008, 11:31:57 PM
I guess it just depends on the car. Stuffing a 4.6 in a 1983-85 car makes more sense due to the car's lighter weight. Personally I wouldn't mind one of those.
Taking Carm's point a little further, there is something inherently primitive about our cars. They are the dividing line between old-school and ultra-modern, and I'm not just talking about looks. Sure, the bodies were slick, and some of the manufacturing techniques were relatively new at the time, but otherwise the cars have parts and principles that dated back to the 1970's, even the late 1960's for some components. Whether we want to admit it or not, we are officially 'archaic' now. It just makes sense to stuff in an old engine vs. a later model one. Our cars were built for them...built around them.
What we are lucky for, though, is that we can do newer engine swaps if we want to, all thanks to the SN95 platform. At the very least, this gives us at least 10 more years' worth of parts and engines for a potential transplant into our cars. But with all the federal regulations that kicked in (OBD-II), the EEC-V system, and features that our cars lacked (modern ABS, air bags, etc.), the most difficult aspect isn't really the motor...it's the wiring. So long as there are companies to make stand-alone engine management a reality for older cars (think hot rods), we'll be okay.
For the foreseeable future we'll probably be alright with older engine swaps also. I mean, you can still buy a new 302 block, you can get a stroker kit or even a pre-stroked motor, there are kits to drop in a 460...it's still an open world. The sands of time may tick by faster now but that doesn't mean we're totally lost in those sands. Besides, as mentioned here, even a GM motor would work. We have super modern hot rod potential!!!1!
Personally I think there's going to be a very big market in the next decade for some kind of conversion kits for alternative fuels. Once the E85 infrastructure is solidified across North America, there will be a great opportunity for the enterprising to offer legitimate conversion kits for internal combustion engines to run on ethanol. Actually, if you think about it, hot rodding almost certainly has to go that direction. It is a stop-gap measure, no doubt, but it would help. Already Detroit is embracing it with concept cars; the '08 Indy Pace Corvette runs on E85. Plus you have all the numerous GM vehicles that already have the capability. So once this catches on we could techinically be right back in the thick of things and have a great opportunity to be "cutting edge" again. And let's face it: the engines from our era burned dirty. We can use some newer technology to help us there. ;)
Another option would be electric conversions...ironic, though, since Fords from our era are notorious for a myriad of electrical problems. :rolleyes: But still, if there was a way to stuff a 200hp electric setup under the hood of my '84, I'd be first in line. Even a hybrid-style electric generator kit would sell well if the electronic management system can be standardized. Believe me, someone's going to do this and make a lot of money. It's all just a matter of time now.
So in short, we're far from being irrelevant. There are good things around the corner.
As for the modular motors...I've only seen a handful of people that have actually attempted it. Why is that? Is it the electronics? The cost? The extra work? Who knows. It's been over a decade of mod motors and they haven't exactly caught on like wildfire. If you have stupid throwaway money they can be a great project though. I'd never knock anyone that took the time to do it the correct way. Again, you get the right lightweight car and that can be a lot of fun.
Ford's ideas with their motors are hit and miss. They seem to be content being 2-3 years behind what GM is doing. I do like the potential of the new EcoBoost engines and hopefully they'll continue to grow their V6 and V8 programs to be competitive. But they really dropped the ball in the last 10 years and it's going to be difficult to make that back up, plus make a desirable engine series. You have to remember that whatever is under the Mustang's hood is going to be considered "legendary". Ford absolutely cannot screw up their signature car's powerplant. So you'll be guaranteed at least one fairly stout engine from them in the future.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 22, 2008, 12:09:15 AM
All the MN-12 guys go around taking shiznit about the 4.6 in their cars. I always like that my 5.0 with stock Ford parts (Explorer) makes more power than their *modded* 4.6s with PI heads.
I've driven 4.6 powered cars and I haven't been particulary impressed. I mean hell my 5.0 will wind to 6,000 rpm no problem. Why the hell can't a 4.6 wind much higher than that. It's an OHC engine after all.........
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: cougarcragar on January 22, 2008, 12:35:18 AM
I've owned my '96 (4.6) for nearly four years now, and I've never really gotten into modifying it. I installed a Dynomax cat-back kit to make it actually sound like a V8, and I had a performance chip in it for a few months. Other than that, I just drive the thing. It's been the most reliable car I've ever owned, and that's exactly how I see it - not as a pavement-scorching weekend warrior.
The only other MN12 that I've had a strong desire to own would be a '91 XR7. It has the most attractive front end, a monochromatic paint scheme, and most of all - a HO 5.0.
Quote from: thunderjet302;199215
All the MN-12 guys go around taking shiznit about the 4.6 in their cars...
You will see that a lot over at TCCoA. There are some members there who have had me fuming in the past. Some of them are just really, really dumb.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: Innes on January 22, 2008, 01:27:15 AM
I always thought the OHV motor could be more potent then the pushrod motor due to less valvetrain work and resistants. Remember the ford cammer motor it was banned from nascar. I think the problem w/the 4.6 is the bore and stoke not enough bore and to much stroke I don’t know I’m not an engineer.
On the brighter side I read this somewhere and I believe it and that is the 79-93 fox stangs are the today’s 55-57 chevys a dime a dozen that’s why everyone dose them that good for use since there kind of our cousin. And as for the EFI 5.0s there kind of the first step into the fuel injection world in 86’ and ford did a great job when other were still running carbs for how long after.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: oldraven on January 22, 2008, 08:02:00 AM
Quote from: daboss351;199177
what are you talking about? since when do the 4.6l sound like a 6?
When they were in my father-in-law's pristine Crown Vic and F-150. What can I say? There was no rumble and all you heard was valvetrain. I've heard more excitement from a tractor.
You don't have to like it guys, but that's my opinion of the 4.6. My gutless POS 305 sounded better than most stock 4.6's.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: V8Demon on January 22, 2008, 08:55:31 AM
Quote
I drive a "260HP P.I. 2V SOHC" and it barely keeps up with an LT1 Impala from 7 years before it!
No, you drive a 239 HP version :hick: I know I'm splitting hairs!
Quote
You want a 2001 or newer
Stay away from the '06-up unless you want to play with it on the dyno. The electronic throttle settings on most of them make them feel even slower than the earlier ones.
Quote
All the MN-12 guys go around taking shiznit about the 4.6 in their cars.
A non-pi 2v 205 HP motor in a 3800 lb car with absolutely no room under the hood? Hmmm....Yeah I'll take 12:hick:
Quote
there is something inherently primitive about our cars. They are the dividing line between old-school and ultra-modern
Well put! My car(to me anyway) has good looks compared with anything on the road and still gives that feeling of having it's own pulse when I drive it. I can "feel" what it conveys to me. This is something my Mustang (and almost every other car I've driven) is lacking.
I can actually tell the difference in exhaust note between a 2V, 3V, and 4V 4.6, stock exhaust or not.
Listen to this: http://videos.streetfire.net/category/Ford/20/4329fcc6-d375-4eae-9544-993e018210c1.htm
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: ZondaC12 on January 22, 2008, 08:58:42 AM
Ya know I gotta say now that I think about it my mom's '02 Explorer does sound a lot like that, I've always wondered why there was so much noise from under there. :hick:
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2008, 09:30:59 AM
239/250/260, they're all dog slow :(
I forgot about the electronic throttle though, good point.
My 4.6 better pray it never dies. Because something much bigger and better would go in it's place...
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: Red_LX on January 22, 2008, 09:40:23 AM
Quote from: Innes;199226
On the brighter side I read this somewhere and I believe it and that is the 79-93 fox stangs are the today’s 55-57 chevys
I thought the Honda Civic was today's 55-57 Chevy? (that's what some dumbass import mag said, probably sport compact car :rolleyes: )
Anyway I still like my archaic 2.3 that all the car mags poo-pooed back in the day, although I also have yet to own a vehicle with a gas V8 in it. At least you V8 guys, mod motor or windsor, have some kind of aftermarket to work with!
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: V8Demon on January 22, 2008, 09:49:11 AM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;199259
239/250/260, they're all dog slow :(
I forgot about the electronic throttle though, good point.
My 4.6 better pray it never dies. Because something much bigger and better would go in it's place...
They're just in cars that are too heavy...a 2V 4.6 with Patriot heads, stage 2 cams and stuffed into something lighter ('83 T-Bird?) would be nice. Add a 5 speed and 3.73's:burnout:
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2008, 09:58:12 AM
Except at that cost, an LS1/T56 could be had with Patriot heads and a real cam and make 500+ HP. And still fit easier!!! Or honestly even a serious (400+HP) 302/331/347/351 and fit even easier still.
There's a few 460's and even a V10 (bad idea, all of the weight, none of the power) in CV's. The engine isn't bad in the CV, it's just short-winded. Mine will jump off of the line great and bark 2nd, but once it hits 3rd it just lays over and plays dead. What's the point of a cammer if it can't rev? John's GTO goes to 6400 stock!
It's probably so disappointing because it has potential (ala 03/04 Cobra). But when you add in horrible head flow (on the 2V's), two different architectures (Romeo/Windsor), 4 plug threads (STILL to this day on the CV's!!! How many more plugs have to be blown out of the things for Ford to recall!!!), lack of high-revving capability, and then top it all of with a big ole dose of super-freaking-heavy and huge it's just depressing.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: V8Demon on January 22, 2008, 10:01:02 AM
You've basically just described every reason why I've never owned a 2 valve! The 3 Valve has so much more potential it's not even funny.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2008, 10:11:38 AM
Good point. Wonder what the prices on 3V heads/Intake are coming to? Might be a fun conversion for me...
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: V8Demon on January 22, 2008, 10:18:23 AM
http://www.blowbyracing.com/bbr-3v-heads.html
Dig the stock flow #'s....They outflow the stage II 2V heads from Patriot performance on the intake side!
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2008, 10:52:24 AM
Those heads are more expensive then a complete LS1, which outflows those heads. See why I have problems with the mod series?
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: V8Demon on January 22, 2008, 11:07:49 AM
Those are aftermarket heads....I have no clue how much a set of stockers would run for...Aftermarket LS1 heads are pricey too.;)
This drop out includes motor, transmission, all engine accessories, engine harness, mass air flow sensor, engine computer, and pedals. With the Tremec TR-3650 5-speed auto transmission, this is one of the lowest priced, and most sought after muscle car packages available. This package has only 248 actual miles on it (title available for buyer to see).
Didn't know the 3650 trans was an auto :hick:
Another one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/07-Ford-Mustang-GT-4-6L-V8-SOHC-Engine-w-transmission_W0QQitemZ120213325762QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item120213325762
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2008, 11:15:17 AM
True on the aftermarket price issue.
So, uh, going to upgrade your heads anytime soon? I'm in the market (I think?) for stock 3V heads/intake.... :D
I've yet to do any mods beyond the cat-back and drop-in. They say porting the TB and elbow is worth 5-8rwhp and helps throttle response so I may try that (it is free).
The whole 03-05 MAF/ZIP/tune sounds good for 10-15 bhp too (plus then I could get a tuner and save a file for E85).
Ahhh who am I kidding, $200 buys a 100 shot and that's all I really need :hick:
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: V8Demon on January 22, 2008, 11:26:01 AM
Quote
So, uh, going to upgrade your heads anytime soon? I'm in the market (I think?) for stock 3V heads/intake....
Computer tune (+50 HP @ wheels! w/ 93 octane +60 w/ 100 octane!!!) first (this week). Driveshaft next then gears. If the first 2 digits on the slip aren't 11 after that then we'll see what happens...;)
Quote
They say porting the TB and elbow is worth 5-8rwhp and helps throttle response so I may try that (it is free).
On a 2v? I'd go Accufab 75 mm TB & upper plenum. Adjustable cam gears, 3.73's and a dyno tune for a relatively inexpensive speed upgrade. Guys are finding 20-30 Hp when adjusting the cam timing...especially on the non-Mustang variants.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: 347Thunder on January 22, 2008, 12:46:30 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;199276
http://www.blowbyracing.com/bbr-3v-heads.html
Dig the stock flow #'s....They outflow the stage II 2V heads from Patriot performance on the intake intake side!
BBR is my buddy's sponsor, Rob Mollet (old navy)they are out of FL :banana: http://www.blowbyracing.com/robmollet.html
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2008, 01:08:09 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;199287
On a 2v? I'd go Accufab 75 mm TB & upper plenum. Adjustable cam gears, 3.73's and a dyno tune for a relatively inexpensive speed upgrade. Guys are finding 20-30 Hp when adjusting the cam timing...especially on the non-Mustang variants.
CV elbows point to the drivers side, not the passenger. So none of the bolt-on stuff there works. I'm pretty much stuck with porting unless a 3V swap happens (since 3V stuff points to the drivers side).
The P71 already comes with 3.55's so 3.73's shouldn't help that much :(
I've read about the cam timing thing, sounds like a good before-and-after project for the summer when the track is open.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: V8Demon on January 22, 2008, 01:50:43 PM
Quote
The P71 already comes with 3.55's so 3.73's shouldn't help that much
Since when? Ours are all 3.27's....
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2008, 04:01:13 PM
Really? I dunno I'm still trying to figure this bloody thing out. The CVN guys say 3.27 or 3.55's depending on year/P-code and the chart showed 3.55 under 01 P71. Is there an axle code I can check like on the Birds? None of my jacks are big enough to lift the whole ass end! :hick:
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: Mercoug302 on January 27, 2008, 10:48:18 PM
OK,
A few years ago, right after I built my 88 XR7, I purchased a 1996 MN-12 with the 4.6L as a daily. I loved the car for about 3 months, then couldn't stand it. It was a beautiful car, black with tan leather, and probably always will be the most reliable car that I've ever owned up to the day that it was sold with 186,000 miles on it. But after the "newness" wore off, the car just didn't excite me like the fox did even though it was significantly quicker than a stock fox and extremely comfortable. I then purchased another 88 XR7 to ultimately replace the MN-12 after only having it for four months. However, after the 5.0 did what they all do after 100,000 miles and started to eat the mains, it became very clear to me why I needed to keep the MN-12. Our cars are just getting old. A few years later I stepped up to my first Mark VIII, thought it was the greatest two door four seater ever created, that was until I got my first spin in a 2004 (they had just come out) pontiac GTO 6 spd. The mark was promply sold after that. All of this time of course, I still owned my cougar which was in non-running condition. After the pontiac "departed" I went back to another mark, which I then sold when my friend offered me a fantastic deal on a 1996 Impala SS which is my current daily now. What is the point of all of this? I came to realize that the longer I stayed out of my cougar (the more different cars I drove), I was having less and less of the desire I had before to fix it up again. My love affair with the car still exists today, but with a different spin. We try to make our cars into the best of all worlds, sporty, sophiticated classy 2 door sedan, but they really don't have to be. I as I'm sure all of you here fell in love with my car when it was 100% stock. Sure I had fun building it up, and I had fun tearing it down and rebuilding it everytime something broke on it, but I really can't say that I got much more satisfaction out of it whether or not it had 155hp or 355hp, I just loved to be in it. I would much rather just go out and get a car that was meant to be abused rather than do so with my cat.
About 3 months ago, a very inconsiderate person backed into my SS's rear 1/4 panel while I was inside of a mall. I guess I shouldn't be too shocked, being that the car is what it is, but I'm not used to hearing this from a regular body shop when assessing a 12 year old car. The quote to re-do the driver's side rear 1/4 with all associated labor, paint, emblems and moldings was only $500.00. Why? because all of the above listed parts (as well as every other misc part for those cars) are showing as NEW and AVAILABLE from GM still, even after twelve years . . . Maybe that's a reason why those cars used in prime condition are valued for as much today as they were when they were brand new (please no comments about inflation adjustments, we're talking raw sticker price here). 1998 mark 8 owners cannot even replace those HID bulbs after less than 10 years. So I could pretty much drive this thing around like it's still in production and not have to worry about scowering through junkyards to find a car that doesn't have yellowed headlights if one of them gets chipped up. If that old LT1 decides to throw a rod? No problem! never mind how many LT1's there are around that can be found used, or vast amount of aftermarket 350's there are to chose from, I could easily just drop in an LSX engine and install a pre-made wiring harness and be good to go (being that they all use the standard SBC engine mount locations and bellbousing patterns). So what am I getting at? I think our cars should be geared more towards preservation now than anything else. I'm definetly not saying don't mod the hell out of your fox, but the more we mod them, the harder we drive them and the more we break them, more difficult it is to fix them afterwards as the years go on, and as far as it seems, the vast majority of the auto enthisiast world won't care if we could ever fix them again. My next fox is more than likely going to be a stocker, if I can luck out and find a nice clean one, or roll up the sleeves and try to find one to restore to originality (that'll be a project), but it's as Eric said numerous times, "some people are more than happy to just turn the key", just never though that would end up being me though . .
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: Thunder Chicken on January 28, 2008, 12:23:40 PM
Yeah, you've gotta like the ability to buy new parts for your cars. These things are getting so that one feels guilty driving them, knowing that should anything happen you're pretty much fvcked when it comes to replacement parts.
I hate Ford for that - they completely abandon cars when they're not even ten years old. They don't give a rat's ass about enthusiasts (as is obvious by their really shiznitty product lineup and their tendency to sue anybody that sets up a Mustang fan site). They care about selling an appliance to somebody looking to buy an appliance, and that's it. Once the car's out of warranty, to hell with it.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on January 28, 2008, 04:31:15 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;199310
Since when? Ours are all 3.27's....
Supposedly the '00 P71 I was looking at with the bad rear had a 3.55...
BTW my buddy did go ahead and buy that car for $1350(told him I'd go $1100)... When he got it, said the rear had only a slight noise, doesn't think anyone will notice(he's a dealer)...
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: shame302 on January 28, 2008, 05:18:04 PM
why cry about it? most of us arent looking to build more than 400 hp and shiznite, pick your poison. you can do it with just about anyhting out there. i LOVE my 4 valve. hadnt the stang come along the bird would have been comleted by now. i regret that very, very much. at this point i would without a doubt rather my drivetrain in the tbird over the stang. i still love the mustang dont get me wrong. i just realy miss the tbird. anyway, it scoots. put a P1 on it with a tune and im done. 430 RWHP that is very streetable. i belive the modulars are much more street friendly than the 5.0 cars. as far as not high reving, i dont know what you guys been smoling but my 4 valve pulls into the 7k range. it makes my skin crawl but it does. also, theres no need for it. it sounds decent. the 4 valves sound a little "muddy" but im happy. i dunno, i couldnt car less who puts what in ther cars. if i saw an ls1 lt1 or whatever powerd turbo coupe id give it the nod. id also puke in my mouth a litte bit. just not for me. i want interested in a 5.0 car cause everybody had them and the 4 valve wouldnt have been all that hard to do. 300+ hp would have doubled the original output of the car. opening the hood and seeing that gorgeous 4 valve filling the engine bay would in my opinion make a more of an impression than any 5.0 to each his own.
from what i remember the term modular came from the tooling, not the engines themselves. i agree, ford could have done alot of thing different or better. doesnt matter much at this point as ford pretty much licks grundle. GM is just burrying them with their line of cars. would i ever own a GTO. very likely not. id rather my slower older mustang than an overgrown grand am. sure they are sick, just not my cup of tea. i hate arguing over who made what better, whos car is better and why everybody else sucks. a cool car is a cool car. HP is HP. what differance does it make. not sure what my ramble contributes but i feel better now...
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: V8Demon on January 28, 2008, 05:42:21 PM
Quote
i dont know what you guys been smoling but my 4 valve pulls into the 7k range.
2V Crown Vic =5800 RPM redine.....My Cougar tops that right now.
Quote
i belive the modulars are much more street friendly than the 5.0 cars.
Agreed. The 5.0 has a very present soul though. I feel it every time I drive the car.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 28, 2008, 05:50:32 PM
2V man, 2V! The 3V's are finally getting some OK #'s, but you have to imagine that even the 94 LT1's were 300HP. So as usual Ford is a decade late and 100HP short (LS2 GTO = 400HP). *sigh*
You know Carm, they don't even care about you during the warranty any more. How many 4.6 owners have been left high-and-dry with blown out plugs? How many fires did that stupid cruise switch start (INCLUDING the one in my 92 SHO that caught fire). It saddens me. :(
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: V8Demon on January 28, 2008, 06:03:20 PM
Find me one that can last as long as a 2V without blowby.;)
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: Thunder Chicken on January 28, 2008, 06:26:40 PM
My rant wasn't about what the 5.0 was back in 1995 when they stopped using it in cars, it was about what it could have been, had it seen the same kind of development and evolution that the LSx engines have seen. Things such as variable valve timing, displacement on demand, split port heads, aluminum blocks of varying displacements (not just a 5.0, but anything from a 5.0 to a 5.8 in 8.5" deck height, and up to 7.0 in 9.2" deck height), etc.
Hell, the same applies to the modular, for that matter. GM has developed the HELL out of the LS engine series, with dozens of versions available for cars and trucks ranging from 4.8 liters to 7.0 liters. Meanwhile Ford seems content to let the modular fester underdeveloped while other engines that are supposedly inferior because they're supposedly antiquated leave it in the dust.
Ten years ago I'd have been (and indeed, was) all over GM for developing an engine based on antiquated designs while everyone else moves forward to OHC an multivalve setups. Now, though, I see that it was GM who was(and still is) looking ahead. Ford's modular has seen very little change while GM's LS engines have constantly been upgraded and improved. Ford promised us all kinds of things - 5.0 "cammers", 351 and 427CI V10's, etc, but it was GM who delivered.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 28, 2008, 06:27:08 PM
92 then :hick:
I don't like the LT1, give me a standard SBC or an LS1 anyday.
I'm still waiting to find a ridiculously cheap 3V setup for the 'Vic though...
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 28, 2008, 06:36:43 PM
The "cam-within-a-cam" technology in the LS3 is staggering. Just the idea of 436HP with a full factory warranty out of 6.2L (Hell 400HP from the 364ci 6.0L LS2!) and still get 25-28MPG on the highway is superb. I barely get 25MPG in the the anemic 4.6L 240HP mod motor (working on that...).
I really, REALLY hope the "new" engine is pushrod or at least, developed. Ford started the 4.6 in what, 94-95? It took them until 99 to get (2V) heads that flowed decent on the Mustang (and 2001 on the CV and others). The 3V didn't hit until 2005 and all of the 2V's STILL have not enough spark-plug threads (my God, how hard is it to tell the machine to tap 8 threads instead of 4, SERIOUSLY!?!?!!).
The LSx? 97 LS1 in the Vette (350HP), 98 in the Camaro/Firebird, the first Z06 hit in what 00, 01? First with 385HP, then 405HP (LS6, still 5.7L). The trucks got iron-block versions with tons of grunt, the 400HP LS2 hit in 05 in the Vette and GTO (6.0L), the 505HP LS7 (7.0L) in 06, and in 07 we got the 436HP "base" LS3 (6.2L) with displacement-on-demand. Even the FWD (5.3L LS4) have 303HP (ECU-limited for drivetrain life!). They kept developing the architecture!
The "mod" is still 4.6L, it took 5ish years to get heads, a decade to get a valvetrain update, still no DoD or VVT type things (though the intake does have the SHO-like flappers). Why couldn't Ford update the mod like GM did the LS? *sniff*
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: JeremyB on January 28, 2008, 06:44:44 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;200537
The "mod" is still 4.6L, it took 5ish years to get heads, a decade to get a valvetrain update, still no DoD or VVT type things (though the intake does have the SHO-like flappers).
The 3V variant has VCT (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Cam_Timing").
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: CougarSE on January 28, 2008, 07:46:40 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;200525
2V man, 2V! The 3V's are finally getting some OK #'s, but you have to imagine that even the 94 LT1's were 300HP. So as usual Ford is a decade late and 100HP short (LS2 GTO = 400HP). *sigh*
You know Carm, they don't even care about you during the warranty any more. How many 4.6 owners have been left high-and-dry with blown out plugs? How many fires did that stupid cruise switch start (INCLUDING the one in my 92 SHO that caught fire). It saddens me. :(
Ah yes more Modular hating from ABM. Guess he forgot that the ever so better Camaro/Firebird got shiznit canned and guess what? So did the GTO. Amazing that the Mustang never died?
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: Thunder Chicken on January 28, 2008, 08:38:48 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;200537
The "cam-within-a-cam" technology in the LS3 is staggering. Just the idea of 436HP with a full factory warranty out of 6.2L (Hell 400HP from the 364ci 6.0L LS2!) and still get 25-28MPG on the highway is superb. I barely get 25MPG in the the anemic 4.6L 240HP mod motor (working on that...).
I really, REALLY hope the "new" engine is pushrod or at least, developed. Ford started the 4.6 in what, 94-95? It took them until 99 to get (2V) heads that flowed decent on the Mustang (and 2001 on the CV and others). The 3V didn't hit until 2005 and all of the 2V's STILL have not enough spark-plug threads (my God, how hard is it to tell the machine to tap 8 threads instead of 4, SERIOUSLY!?!?!!).
The LSx? 97 LS1 in the Vette (350HP), 98 in the Camaro/Firebird, the first Z06 hit in what 00, 01? First with 385HP, then 405HP (LS6, still 5.7L). The trucks got iron-block versions with tons of grunt, the 400HP LS2 hit in 05 in the Vette and GTO (6.0L), the 505HP LS7 (7.0L) in 06, and in 07 we got the 436HP "base" LS3 (6.2L) with displacement-on-demand. Even the FWD (5.3L LS4) have 303HP (ECU-limited for drivetrain life!). They kept developing the architecture!
The "mod" is still 4.6L, it took 5ish years to get heads, a decade to get a valvetrain update, still no DoD or VVT type things (though the intake does have the SHO-like flappers). Why couldn't Ford update the mod like GM did the LS? *sniff*
The Modular was introduced in the '91 Lincoln Town Car. The 4V version came along two years later, in the Lincoln Mark VIII.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 28, 2008, 08:55:01 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;200542
The 3V variant has VCT (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Cam_Timing").
Sweet! I honestly didn't know that. The 3V is such a huge step in the right direction! I just wish it didn't take 10+ years :(
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 28, 2008, 08:57:01 PM
Quote from: CougarSE;200565
Ah yes more Modular hating from ABM. Guess he forgot that the ever so better Camaro/Firebird got shiznit canned and guess what? So did the GTO. Amazing that the Mustang never died?
Your point? The GTO wouldn't meet 2007 crash regulations (you know, like the Ford GT). The 4th gen F-body was a py car. The Mustang got by how it always does, V6 sales.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: CougarSE on January 28, 2008, 09:01:20 PM
Say it again. Got by, Gm didn't.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: shame302 on January 28, 2008, 09:51:40 PM
LOL at LT1! i pulled on a 97 slomaro with my 94 mark viii with nothing more than a shift kit. the camaro was always a piece of shiznite. now, im not saying i would never consider a 98 up ss or something but were boasting a little too much. i wouldnt put alot of faith in ford these days either. i love the mustang. i love every mustang from 87 up untill now. i love vetts too. i love all kinds of cars. i just prefer the modular new edge stangs the most. followed by the S197. id truely prefer my old tbird with a forged aluminum modular with a turbo setup. ford has the stang to offer and much else. i had alot of love for them at one point. unfortunately they are just kind of festering in the sun like yesturdays garbage.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 28, 2008, 10:57:03 PM
shame302, And isn't that the shame? Ford did so well with the S197 Mustang (and the GT), why can't they do the same to the whole line? Hell Europe gets an awesome Focus, Mondeo, and even the Ka. Bring them over here in LHD and they'd make a fortune! It's sad that GM is still #1 and Ford has slipped to #4. :(
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: V8Demon on January 29, 2008, 07:58:34 AM
Quote
Ah yes more Modular hating from ABM. Guess he forgot that the ever so better Camaro/Firebird got shiznit canned and guess what? So did the GTO. Amazing that the Mustang never died?
You know, there are plenty of other Pro GM guys here and they are never bashed......Take it to the PM's or get over it. This is a lounge thread with peoples opinions. Not Thunderdome...
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: JeremyB on January 29, 2008, 12:45:06 PM
I'd love to see a graph of the stock BSFCs (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption") for the different engines in the thread. It's hard to truly compare fuel efficiency of different motors when you put them in divergent platforms (mass, transmission, Cd, diff. gearing, etc).
A chart of BSFC verus rpm with at different load conditions (idle, 20%, ..., WOT) could be used to see the mpg difference of an LS3 put into a 1987 Cougar, or a 3V 4.6L in a ZO6 (b/c who would really do such a swap ;))
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: CougarSE on January 29, 2008, 12:51:33 PM
Oh Paul now your crying GM love. Funny my other project car is a GM. I'm not crying GM love and I'm sure as hell not crying Ford love. You don't see me in these "gosh I love my tbird" threads.
I have nothing to "get over". I'm stating my "opinion" about the praises of three cars that got phased out.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 29, 2008, 04:26:59 PM
Three highly-profitable cars that got phased out when the platforms got out of date (something Ford has NO freaking idea how to do!) and kept their maker #1 in world sales.
Ford's slipped to #4 in the meantime...
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: V8Demon on January 29, 2008, 04:38:38 PM
Quote
Oh Paul now your crying GM love
Since when? I've never claimed to love GM. In fact I would be VERY hard pressed to ever own another GM product considering my past experiences with their products. The only GM I ever owned that I liked was my very first car that wiped out a cam lobe and developed a rod knock all before 100K.
Quote
Funny my other project car is a GM
Hypocrisy knows no bounds......bash on someone else for expressing his view on a certain engine
Quote from: CougarSE
No one here gives a flying shiznit about an LSX engine. If an LSX had a dick ABM would be all over it.
yet state how you have a GM project car all within a matter of hours.....You're just proving my point. Your attack is not at the LSX engine. It's directed at ABM and now apparently me because you feel I'm defending him... You have been a voice of reason in the past. Step back, take a break, and breathe. It's a PM issue and really has no place in a thread. Take your own advice:
Quote from: CougarSE
Take a chill pill and quit fighting each other. I couldn't care less how ABM got discharged or retired or what the fvck ever and I bet no one else here does either. Talk about it again and I'm sure this thread will be locked just as quick as ABM's hating threads.
Do either one of you remember how it was a year ago here? Two years ago? How none of you jumped down each others throats? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that its not an option that you do. Remember it and start acting that way again.
Quote
I'm stating my "opinion" about the praises of three cars that got phased out.
Nothing wrong with that. Did I state anything about your stance on certain vehicle products?! NO.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: CougarSE on January 29, 2008, 04:40:41 PM
Paul Flockhart, a true voice of reason. I guess my issues with ABM run deaper than this thread and its contents.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 29, 2008, 04:49:49 PM
Why? What have I ever done to you?
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: Kitz Kat on January 29, 2008, 05:10:44 PM
After reading all this ,when do you think ford will offer 100,000 mile drive train warranty,like just about everyone else? It's got to hurt sales that they don't.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: shame302 on January 29, 2008, 06:01:14 PM
Quote
After reading all this ,when do you think ford will offer 100,000 mile drive train warranty,like just about everyone else? It's got to hurt sales that they don't.
maybe when somebody buys them out.
in fords defense, they DO have a few GREAT products. they just dont sell them here. i agree with AM on this one.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: Kitz Kat on January 29, 2008, 06:05:55 PM
Quote from: shame302;200803
maybe when somebody buys them out.
in fords defense, they DO have a few GREAT products. they just dont sell them here. i agree with AM on this one.
Like GM? Wouldn't that be something.
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: Beau on January 29, 2008, 06:07:57 PM
I don't really give a rat's ass about Crown Vic's, Mustangs, or Camaro's, or anything beyond my Tbird, and my F-150. Cars are...well....disposable. Work on 'em, blow 'em up, wreck 'em, smash 'em.
I'm through and through Ford...but even I notice when stock Chevy powered vehicles are faster than some modified Fords.:flame:Don't hate GM cause Ford has their collective heads up their asses!
Otherwise: My opinion is that I have no opinion. ;)
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 29, 2008, 07:18:05 PM
Think about it Ford! Bring over the Mondeo, Focus, and Ka from Europe, the Falcon from Australia, keep the Fusion and dump the Taurus/500, dump the US Focus, keep updating the Mustang and F150.
They'd so good! Not to mention they're CAFE would go up considerably!
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: oldraven on January 30, 2008, 07:15:19 AM
Well, take a step back there. If we import EVERY good car Ford makes in other markets, who's left to work in North America? I agree, they need to start using global cars, but they have to retool here first. Imagine if we replaced the cars made in US/CAN for imported cars. No one would be able to buy them, because there are now tens of thousands of domestic Ford employees out of work.
Bring them in slowly, and retool our factories to build them ourselves.
*edit* I just saw something interesting in a C&D Page-a-day calendar. A 1928 Duesy Straight Eight. DOHC and 4 valve. Look who's using yesterday's tech now. ;)
Title: Wonder what could have been...
Post by: P71 on January 30, 2008, 08:48:47 AM
I meant make the plants here build them :hick: I just want to bring the designs over ;)