Converted my 88 bird to 5 lug using 91 spindles.
Used front struts for a 91 Stang.
Used rear shocks for a 91 Stang.
Used 91 Stang rear housing w/ 84 Mark VII axels.
Used 91 Stang rear springs. (gave it about a 2" drop in the ass.)
17x9 Bullits
New 275/40's on the back
New 245/40's on the front
Aligned by Les Schwab
Problem #1:
Noticed right away it was following every crack in the road
had alignement rechecked and they said it was in factory spec's but borderline. And was adjusted as far as it could go.
Been driving it (daily driver)
Problem #2:
Front tires are shot, outside edges is totaly worn off, Center of tire has at least 50%
SO.. here I am, don't have the time to mess with it but now that it's a "tires going to pop soon" issue I'm forced to.
Chuck.. a quote from you I read and has been stuck in my head all this time is you told somebody else was "now get some C/C plates and fix that tire wear" Can you please explain this comment.. does this have to do with my tire wear also?
One thing I AM going to do is get that ass end back up, the stang springs work (enough clearance, but too much drop, ass end sit's lower than the front).
So my plan is to cut a coil from my 88 springs I still have and replace the stang springs and use Chuck's shock extensions.
I figure leveling the car out (or at least getting the ass off the ground) will help some. But I don't think this will be enough. (Will it?)
Should I look at some C/C Plates also? Will that fix my "in factory spec's but borderline. And was adjusted as far as it could go." problem?
and yes I searched, couldent find the answer.
Basically your car is too low all around, but especially in the front, and right now you cannot properly align the car without caster/camber plates. With your setup you should have a bump steer kit also, possibly offset rack bushings as well. With that combination you would be back to a more normal setting with your alignment (although it would still need slightly modified, you'd have those adjustments with c/c plates). The tire wear issue would also be resolved.
In back...if you didn't use Chuck's shock adapters, you're going to have one punishing ride due to the shocks, not to mention that the shocks aren't hitting the "sweet spot". You're bottoming out. You also have to consider that your tires are enormous and are going to have a tendency to follow the grooves in the road, for better or worse.
While tempting to think of these cars as just big Mustangs, the reality is that our cars are not identical to Mustangs, and in fact have specific settings for the suspension. Once those settings are compromised then you absolutely have to keep adding parts until you can correct the geometry.
That is tramlining. It is a side-effect of increased front grip.
Here's an article on the subject...
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=47
Get some MM C/C Plates. Worth every penny. :)
id like to see EXACTLY what the current specs are.
you also didnt mention what front spring you are runnin.
how many miles since the alignment? being
too low and almost out of spec would make me expect inside wear, not outside wear.....how low is the front?
more info would be great. and yes CC plates will allow more adjustment in the camber, so they will allow you to get the car back into the sweet spot of the specs.
sounds like you already know what to do with the rear. ;)
Well what was the alignment set at? Did they give you numbers or just spout the vague "within factory specs"?
With the stock geometry there is significant camber loss on turn, which means as you turn the wheels, the outside wheel goes into a positive camber situation, or the tire is rolling over onto the outer edge. Not the best for traction/grip. The standard "fix" is to run a bit more negative static camber to counter this loss. The trade-off is increased tire wear on the inner edge.
Usually when these cars get lowered in the front you can't dial in enough negative camber and it sounds like you may even be sitting with some positive static camber due to them not being able to dial it in with the stock strut mounts.
You should be able to gain a bit more adjustment with C/C plates to allow the camber setting to be corrected.
Another gain of C/C plates is the ability to dial in more positive caster. What this does is to reduce the camber loss in turn, so in other words, cut down on the tendency of the outside tire to roll over during a turn. It also makes the inside tire react "properly" as well, so when you're turning the force of the car and the orientation of the wheels allows the tire to maintain a better contact patch. When the steering geometry is "corrected" like that, you can run a more moderate static camber setting to help maintain tire wear while not giving up your grip.
Front has the stock 88 T-bird springs (standard, not TC and not Sport) forgot to mention everything else relitive is standard 88. (not relitive= calapers and rotors)
Miles Driven: Cant tell actualy as my dash readout is out so I cant read how many miles is even on the car right now (or how fast I'm going) But to estimate, the work including the new tires was done about 6 months ago so (5/18/07)
365 days in a year / 2 = 182.5
182.5 x about 80 miles a day = 14600 miles
Thats probably a but high as I don't actualy drive 80 miles a day EVERY day but about 4-5 days a week... eather way 15k on a set of tires is way BAD! so you get the idea.
Spec's: they gave me a printout...
Left Front:
Camber: Actual= -0.6 (Specified Range= -0.6 to 1.0)
Caster: Actual= 2.7 (Specified Range= 0.6 to 2.1)
Toe: Actual= .18 (Specified Range=-0.06 to 0.31)
SAI: Actual= 15.4
Included Angle: Actual= 14.8
Right Front:
Camber: Actual= -0.6 (Specified Range= -0.6 to 1.0)
Caster: Actual= 1.9 (Specified Range= 0.6 to 2.1)
Toe: Actual= .13 (Specified Range=-0.06 to 0.31)
SAI: Actual= 14.5
Included Angle: Actual= 13.9
Front:
Cross Camber: Actual= 0.0 (Specified Range= -0.8 to 0.8)
Cross Caster: Actual= 0.8 (Specified Range= -0.8 to 0.8)
Cross SAI: Actual= 0.9 (Specified Range= *** to ***)
Total Toe: Actual= 0.30 (Specified Range= 0.13 to 0.63)
Left Rear:
Camber: 0.0
Toe: 0.05
Right Rear:
Camber: -0.10
Toe: 0.04
Rear:
Cross Camber: 0.0
Total Toe: 0.09
Thrust Angle: 0.01
Any number outside of spec was not able to be adjusted into spec.
well, the static alignment looks pretty good for a car w/stock front springs....
id say youve got a dynamic issue as chuck states. i think i would suggest more caster to help with outside wear. i.e. CC plates and 4deg positive caster. probly leave the camber and toe where they are for a street car.
Yes, your static camber settings are good for a street car, but the 2*+ caster isn't enough. I think the silver car has like 5-6* + caster...but that is with my custom plates, most off-the-shelf CC plates won't give you that much.
Still though, your tires are going to cause the tramlining issues as mentioned earlier, regardless of your alignment settings. However, it does look like your toe is slightly toed out. That will exaggerate the issue as well. Have them set it for toe-in instead of toe-out.
positive is toe-in, chuck.
i think what is exaggerating the problem might be the 9" wheels. the extra width messes with the scrub radius....
I will obviously be needing new front tires, so am I understanding these are the suggestion's before I do?
1) Rear springs and get that ass back in the air. (per Eric's info)
2) C/C Plates and shoot for for 4-6* + Caster, the rest looks "ok"
3) Go narrower, loose the 245's (should help with the scrub radius problem?) (replacing 9" rims unacceptable to me.. LOVE my Bullits even if I need to replace tires every 6 mo.)
Heres what I beleve to be the resolutions.. please confirm before I spend the $$
1) YO Michael Areobird Motorsports.. Still got the springs off that Sport? All four.. I'll PM ya.
2) per CoolCat's
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/
1983-1988 T-Bird and Lincoln Mk VII Caster Camber Plates
$199.95
Part #: MMCC8388
Manufacturer: Maximum Motorsports
Correct Plates?
3) Tires, looks like...
225/40's are recomended for up to 9 rim but just about 3/4 an inch narrower. Will the 3/4 have much effect at all?
Using this
http://www.1010tires.com/TireSizeCalculator.asp?action=submit
to compaire
i wouldnt go narrower than 245 on a 9" rim. in fact if it were mine, it would have 255's on front at least. more caster will help your issue; no need to change your tire or rim sizes.
i guess i dont understand why you would need all four springs. sumthin wrong with the front springs as is?
p/n on the MM plates looks correct.
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_77&products_id=258
(http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/images/front_susp/MMCC8388kit.jpg)
After reading on CoolCat's I figured just going with the sport springs all the way arround.. since I "think" Michael may have some avalable.
Absolutely. I'm running 245 spoogeho's on 03 cobra's and they don't protect the rim for sh*#. If I were to let the wheel fall over the rim hits the ground, not the tire. Personally I'm upgrading to 255's front and 275's rear. Also I can vouch for your car steers itself problem. Same thing happened to me when I did the sn95 upgrade. CC plates helped reduce the problem. good luck.
I'm thinking I would have a rub problem on the strut with anything larger. But I know I'm safe with the 245's so those can stay then. When I put it all together and was checking clearance I was worried about the tire to strut area and it had space but not enough to get a finger in.. .250 MAYBE.. drove it a mile or two turning hard arround corners and removed the wheels and checked and no rub. Then after a week of driving checked again, so the 245's don't rub, but there close.
As for dropping it and scratching those nice Bullits I have, a Semi took care of one of those for me already.
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=16622
Plates are on there way.
Don't suppose when they get here it's possable to install them and "eyeball" kicking that Caster all the way back (as far positive as the plates will allow) without messing up to much of the rest in order to get as much use out of what is left of these tires as possable?
I'm sure there to far gone for a proper alignment from a shop.
Push the caster as far as you can go.
i always run full positive caster; whatever you can evenly get out of the plates.
you wont be able to install the plates w/o messin up the camber and toe settings. the alignment will need to be reset. you can definitely do it yourself to get you thru till you buy new tires though.
this thread (http://"http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=813467") on corral has a good writeup on doin your own alignments.
Anybody ever use the spring spacers to lift the back when using Mustang springs?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem=&item=320200812913
Yea I did a getto alignment when I put the parts on. I was suprisingly close...
Spec's: they gave me a printout... My Getto aligenment specs were listed as "Before"
Left Front:
Camber: Actual= -0.6 (Specified Range= -0.6 to 1.0) Getto=-0.6
Caster: Actual= 2.7 (Specified Range= 0.6 to 2.1) Getto=2.7
Toe: Actual= .18 (Specified Range=-0.06 to 0.31) Getto= .12
SAI: Actual= 15.4 Getto=15.4
Included Angle: Actual= 14.8 Getto=-14.8
Right Front:
Camber: Actual= -0.6 (Specified Range= -0.6 to 1.0) Getto= -0.6
Caster: Actual= 1.9 (Specified Range= 0.6 to 2.1) Getto=1.9
Toe: Actual= .13 (Specified Range=-0.06 to 0.31) Getto=.10
SAI: Actual= 14.5 Getto=14.5
Included Angle: Actual= 13.9 Getto=13.9
Front:
Cross Camber: Actual= 0.0 (Specified Range= -0.8 to 0.8) Getto= 0.0
Cross Caster: Actual= 0.8 (Specified Range= -0.8 to 0.8) Getto= 0.8
Cross SAI: Actual= 0.9 (Specified Range= *** to ***) Getto= 0.8
Total Toe: Actual= 0.30 (Specified Range= 0.13 to 0.63) Getto=.21
Was just hopeing I wouldent need to.
Nice job on your getto alignment. You did alot better than me.
How come the alignment shop didnt touch your camber or caster setting? It looks like all they adjusted was your toe. -.6 camber is fine for the street but I think you'd rather have at least +4 caster with the cross caster being alot closer. With CC plates there's no reason for it to be at the upper limit. They can do better than that.
I'm guessing that the alignment tech didnt know you have CC plates and did a factory alignment. He probably never even opened your hood because on a stock Fox vehicle you dont have to.
When I got my alignment I found a shop that would adjust the alignment to my specs. A good shop will let you talk to the alignment tech that will be working on your car. Just let them know up front that you have camber plates and you have specific settings in mind that are outside of the factory envelope. A lot of places will tell you to go somewhere else but you'll eventually find someone that will cater to your needs.
he hasnt got the plates yet, nor has it been aligned with plates.
if i read it correctly, the "ghetto" alignment was after the 5lug/spindle swap.
Ah, that explains it then.
That's correct!
I just ordered the plates. When I took it back (to a differant Les Schwab) to have it checked (when I noticed it Tramilning) they gave me the same numbers and told me they tried to adjust further but that's all it had, so there wasent anything else they could do. And they also said with the exception of one number it was all in spec. And that one number wasent that far out to cause the problem I was getting.
The plates are here! So I'm hoping to do this on Friday.
Going to start with the installing the rear springs, Chuck's shock extensions, and the plates with them pulled all the way back(full positive caster). Reversing the tires on the rims (swap sides so the badly worn area is on the inside) Take it for a short drive then park in the garage where it's nice, flat, and dry.
Camber
The info with the plates suggest .5* negative for street use. 1.5 to 2.5 negative for race cars. with a note that "some cars/drivers need more negative camber for optimum handling and tire wear" Since I already have a tire wear problem I'm thinking of shooting for a full 1* neg.
And then they recommend .5* toe in for street so I figure going with that.
Do you all agree, or is my plan "skewed"?
assuming that .5deg toe recommendation should have been .05; i would run a touch more toe in with a -1deg camber setting.
.08 - .10deg per side for a total toe setting near .20deg should keep the inside tire wear at bay with the heavier static negative camber setting.
Yea I probably messed that toe number up.. probably was .05
My tire wear is on the outside however, not the inside. What would be best to help with that? Should I go less toe in?
your current wear is in the outside due to lack of caster.
adding the CC plates, fixin the caster concern, plus addin static negative camber will tend to give you some inside tire wear. this is why i suggested slighty more toe in.
gotcha!
Rear springs, Chuck's shock extensions, and CC Plates are on, Tires being mounted now, Alignment right after with instructions to give it MAX even positive caster.
Just driving it into town with a quick ghetto alignment (that I wasent to accurate with since the tires are shot and was planning on getting it aligned anyway) and I can already feel the trameling problem is gone.