General => Lounge => Topic started by: 20th anny 5.o on December 01, 2007, 02:30:00 PM
Title: European Fords
Post by: 20th anny 5.o on December 01, 2007, 02:30:00 PM
I love how people like to insist that Ford has no balls in the sense of pond skipping some of models,example the 99 Ford Cougar.
Title: European Fords
Post by: billboehm on December 01, 2007, 09:19:14 PM
i've never heard of people complaining of a lack of fords in europe, but it does make me angry that particular fords are available in australia but not here. they have a falcon. not fair!
Title: European Fords
Post by: daboss351 on December 01, 2007, 10:12:18 PM
forget the cougar, escort cosworth is where its at!
Title: European Fords
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 01, 2007, 10:29:17 PM
Quote from: 20th anny 5.o;190626
I love how people like to insist that Ford has no balls in the sense of pond skipping some of models,example the 99 Ford Cougar.
The problem with the Cougar wasn't that it was a bad car, it was that it was only a mediocre car that Ford provided absolutely zero love. No advertising, no upgrades, no improvements. As with almost every other vehicle Ford has made in the past several decades, the car was neglected to death.
Another problem with Ford bringing some Euro-spec cars here is that they are always, ALWAYS, dumbed down. We don't get the twin-turbo AWD Cosworth models. We don't get the inline sixes. We don't get the torquey and efficent diesels. We don't get the firm but fun suspensions. Hell, we can't even get a standard transmission in most models, and the few that do offer sticks usually only offer them on the base models/engines.
If Ford would bring a European car over and let it keep the attributes that make it successful in Europe we might actually see a fair gauge as to whether our market would accept them. Ford (and GM) inevitably tip the scales against them though, by "Americanizing" them too much.
Title: European Fords
Post by: oldraven on December 02, 2007, 12:12:27 AM
They keep bringing the wrong Fords over. And when they do, they mess up what was good about them to start with. The Mondeo didn't translate well as the Contour/Mystique, and we get a nearly decade old focus that the Euros had upgraded numerous times. If only they brought over the new Mondeo (no restyle) and Focus. Don't expect them to gamble twice on the same name so soon, though. And, yes, bring those Falcons over.
Title: European Fords
Post by: Beau on December 02, 2007, 12:22:07 AM
Yeah, but they won't though...cause their heads are up their asses. Personally, I'd love to have one of those Aussie Falcons, hell..even a Ute. You could haul ass AND a load of wood, or car parts..or...
Yeah, Ford has RCIS. (recto-cranio-inversion syndrome)
And if they don't realize what the cure is, they're gonna die from it.
I'm already buying flowers..:mad:
Title: European Fords
Post by: cougarcragar on December 02, 2007, 01:02:17 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;190695
Hell, we can't even get a standard transmission in most models, and the few that do offer sticks usually only offer them on the base models/engines.
True, but you have to remember the interest most Americans harbor toward the manual transmission - zilch. Ford could offer a joystick in most, if not all, of their models, but they would likely collect dust on the showroom floor. People are lazy. They don't want to complicate their runs to soccer practice or Wal-Mart. Well, no more complicated than using a cell phone and fiddling with the satellite radio while driving. I happen to think that this idea directly correlates with the growing obesity problem in this country. It's a long shot, but I think there's a connection. Ford gave it a shot with the first run of the Lincoln LS. The V6 model could be had with a 5-speed manual, as you know. It was the first manual transmission offered in a Lincoln for half a century. That didn't last too long. The only people who bid on those models on eBay are people like me. If I was in the market for a 4-door luxury vehicle, I would find a 5-speed Lincoln LS. Although, if I had the money, I would find a BMW 3 Series. Then again, that's domestic versus import. Take a look at what Chrysler is doing. Can you get a manual tranny (not that auto-stick garbage) with the new Charger? Will they offer a manual with the new Challenger? I'd like to know, actually.
Companies like Ford clearly do a lot of research to see how they can position their vehicles to sell the most of them. If that means they will put a slushbox in most of the F-150s, so be it. Aside from the Mustang, I think the last performance-oriented production vehicle from Ford to receive a true manual was the 1995 Thunderbird Supercoupe, and they made less than 500 with the stick-shift.
After all, that was the catalyst for my purchase of the '86 XR-7 - it had the T5 transmission. I wanted to own a piece of clutch-driven performance-oriented Ford history from the '80s that wasn't a Mustang.
Title: European Fords
Post by: billboehm on December 02, 2007, 02:44:50 AM
well ford and their market research. i say the government should come up with some sort of law that they have to build so many manuals per year. like california laws say that a car company must make so many alternative fuel cars each year to sell any cars at all in the state. and if somebody other than the germans and some high-end hondas had those auto manual combo trannys, maybe they would get better.
Title: European Fords
Post by: Tbird232ci on December 02, 2007, 08:51:28 AM
I find it amazing that Ford hardly uses a manual transmission in ANY car. Their base model cars are typically geared toward a younger, generally more budget oriented crowd. Last I heard, the manual transmission was cheaper than the automatic. Cut costs, and you get a more broad crowd of buyers.
Now, to bring in a GM vs Ford point, Pontiac offers a manual in quite a few cars. For example, I was at work, and we had a loaded car hauler, and a brand new Pontiac G6 caught my eye. I climbed up to it, and it had a manual transmission! I looked over the window sticker, it had the high end V6 in it! That made me want a G6, nicely styled, comfortable, decently priced, good power AND a manual.
Title: European Fords
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 02, 2007, 09:13:04 AM
Quote from: cougarcragar;190724
True, but you have to remember the interest most Americans harbor toward the manual transmission - zilch. Ford could offer a joystick in most, if not all, of their models, but they would likely collect dust on the showroom floor. People are lazy. They don't want to complicate their runs to soccer practice or Wal-Mart. Well, no more complicated than using a cell phone and fiddling with the satellite radio while driving. I happen to think that this idea directly correlates with the growing obesity problem in this country. It's a long shot, but I think there's a connection. Ford gave it a shot with the first run of the Lincoln LS. The V6 model could be had with a 5-speed manual, as you know. It was the first manual transmission offered in a Lincoln for half a century. That didn't last too long. The only people who bid on those models on eBay are people like me. If I was in the market for a 4-door luxury vehicle, I would find a 5-speed Lincoln LS. Although, if I had the money, I would find a BMW 3 Series. Then again, that's domestic versus import. Take a look at what Chrysler is doing. Can you get a manual tranny (not that auto-stick garbage) with the new Charger? Will they offer a manual with the new Challenger? I'd like to know, actually.
Companies like Ford clearly do a lot of research to see how they can position their vehicles to sell the most of them. If that means they will put a slushbox in most of the F-150s, so be it. Aside from the Mustang, I think the last performance-oriented production vehicle from Ford to receive a true manual was the 1995 Thunderbird Supercoupe, and they made less than 500 with the stick-shift.
After all, that was the catalyst for my purchase of the '86 XR-7 - it had the T5 transmission. I wanted to own a piece of clutch-driven performance-oriented Ford history from the '80s that wasn't a Mustang.
...And yet Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, and the Europeans still offer manual trannies in most of their models. Sure, less than 10% of Accords and Altimas are manual trannies, but that's a 5% boost to overall sales figures (just guessing that half of the manual buyers would have bought that model anyway if manuals were unavailable while the other half would have gone to a different manufacturer to get that manual). Coincidentally, import brands generally have better fuel economy numbers than domestics - I think the fact that they offer manuals and that manuals are more fuel efficient has at least some effect on that.
The problem with Ford (and GM) is that if they can't win in a particular segment they don't wanna play. If the vehicle isn't an instant, #1 smashing sales success they abandon it rather than improve it, and usually they stop making it altogether (witness the death of minivans from GM and Ford). Look at the Contour. Not a #1 seller, but it sold at least as well as (and probably much better than) the first generation Altima. Rather than keep it around and improve on it, like Nissan did with the Altima, Ford gave up on the car entirely. Meanwhile, in Europe the car did get the improvements and is now a very respectable (and successful) vehicle.
The manual Lincoln LS was a failure, but then again the whole LS concept was, and the manual transmission offering was upside down - it should have been offered with the V8 model, not the V6. Actually, it should've been offered with both, but if they're only gonna give us one, make it the V8. The LS could have been a CTS competitor (which, BTW, offers manual transmissions in the V8 models) but as always, Ford neglected it to death.
Manual transmissions are not available from domestic manufacturers for one reason: Cost cutting. A manual transmission is cheaper than an automatic, but it costs more to offer that option. It's cheaper to build 'em all the same, especially when you can charge all of your buyers for that "feature" whether they like it or not. People chose automatics because the domestic manufacturers make the choice for them.
As for Ford's market research: I think their current market share and financial situation prove how well that works...
Title: European Fords
Post by: cougarcragar on December 02, 2007, 10:46:31 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken
...And yet Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, and the Europeans still offer manual trannies in most of their models.
I wouldn't say they offer manual trannies in most of their models. It seems to me that even the imports are arriving more often with an automatic as the only available transmission.
Ford is keeping up with Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and Nissan with their manual transmission options. My local Ford dealership has a fully-loaded Milan, a FWD Escape and several Focii with the 5-speed transmission, not to mention the Mustangs and Rangers. However, those cars are a very small portion of the dealership's overall stock. Most of each model have an automatic. I've seen the same percentages at the import lots, too. Even the base model Corollas, Civics and Altimas seem to be 90% automatic.
For what it's worth, I spend nearly every day working with dealerships (television advertising) within a 70-mile radius, so I spend a lot of time farting around the lots and looking at the cars - new and pre-owned.
With that said, you mentioned Europeans in your post. I agree, but that's over there. The point I'm trying to make pertains only to this country.
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;190749
People chose automatics because the domestic manufacturers make the choice for them.
You're right, but I still stand by my point, so we'll have to meet in the middle. The people in this country have been conditioned to use automatics. Most Americans just don't care about a manual. The automatic is easier for them to use, so they have no desire to try the manual. Most of my friends don't even know how to drive a stick. If they were looking to buy a car at a dealership that had to models sitting side-by-side; exactly the same except for the transmission, they would opt for the one with one less pedal. All auto manufacturers - import or domestic - are at the mercy of this trend. I can see the manual transmission slowly being phased out over the next 15 years.
:burnout: :flame:
Title: European Fords
Post by: daboss351 on December 02, 2007, 11:11:55 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;190749
...And yet Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, and the Europeans still offer manual trannies in most of their models. Sure, less than 10% of Accords and Altimas are manual trannies, but that's a 5% boost to overall sales figures (just guessing that half of the manual buyers would have bought that model anyway if manuals were unavailable while the other half would have gone to a different manufacturer to get that manual). Coincidentally, import brands generally have better fuel economy numbers than domestics - I think the fact that they offer manuals and that manuals are more fuel efficient has at least some effect on that.
The problem with Ford (and GM) is that if they can't win in a particular segment they don't wanna play. If the vehicle isn't an instant, #1 smashing sales success they abandon it rather than improve it, and usually they stop making it altogether (witness the death of minivans from GM and Ford). Look at the Contour. Not a #1 seller, but it sold at least as well as (and probably much better than) the first generation Altima. Rather than keep it around and improve on it, like Nissan did with the Altima, Ford gave up on the car entirely. Meanwhile, in Europe the car did get the improvements and is now a very respectable (and successful) vehicle.
The manual Lincoln LS was a failure, but then again the whole LS concept was, and the manual transmission offering was upside down - it should have been offered with the V8 model, not the V6. Actually, it should've been offered with both, but if they're only gonna give us one, make it the V8. The LS could have been a CTS competitor (which, BTW, offers manual transmissions in the V8 models) but as always, Ford neglected it to death.
Manual transmissions are not available from domestic manufacturers for one reason: Cost cutting. A manual transmission is cheaper than an automatic, but it costs more to offer that option. It's cheaper to build 'em all the same, especially when you can charge all of your buyers for that "feature" whether they like it or not. People chose automatics because the domestic manufacturers make the choice for them.
As for Ford's market research: I think their current market share and financial situation prove how well that works...
Well said about the LS, my friends(rich friends) wanted a v8 stick shift car, loved the ls look, and knew the v6 had one, looked at the v8's only to find they were all auto, so he bought a bmw.
Title: European Fords
Post by: CougarSE on December 02, 2007, 12:58:25 PM
All of the Nissan Cars come with a 5 or 6 speed. You can get the 270hp v6 Altima or 255hp v6 Maxima with a 6 speed.
Title: European Fords
Post by: Clayton on December 02, 2007, 01:13:40 PM
its crazy, i blame the reason for less manuals is because people are flatout too lazy to drive one nowadays. I had a 92 cavalier a while back, and one of my buddies wanted to buy it cause it was cheap and ran great off of e85 he had cash in hand all 400$ of it, but he turned it down because it was a stick and he didnt know how to drive it nor had the intuition to learn.
lazy peoples, if i had my way my cougar would be a stick too but im not cutting a hole in the floor of that one. :D i like cruising in it.
Title: European Fords
Post by: BCA on December 02, 2007, 02:22:59 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;190749
Manual transmissions are not available from domestic manufacturers for one reason: Cost cutting. A manual transmission is cheaper than an automatic, but it costs more to offer that option. It's cheaper to build 'em all the same, especially when you can charge all of your buyers for that "feature" whether they like it or not. People chose automatics because the domestic manufacturers make the choice for them.
Very true. Soon I will be in the market for a new daily driver and for practial reasons it will likely be a 4-door sedan. I really like the Fusion/Milan V6 models, but Ford doesn't offer them with a manual transmission, and this is something that I don't understand. In it's twin, the Mazda 6, you can get the manual transmission with the same 3.0L duratech engine. So why not offer the Fusion/Milan the same way? Ford's marketing strategy is doing well and the car is doing well, so instead of resting on it's laurels they could make the car even better by expanding it's market share further. Make the manual transmission available on the 6 cyl. and for the fuel efficient crowd, offer the 2.0L turbodiesel that the European Mazda 6 has.
Quote from: cougarcragar;190724
Can you get a manual tranny (not that auto-stick garbage) with the new Charger? Will they offer a manual with the new Challenger? I'd like to know, actually.
The Charger is not available with a traditional manual transmission, however the new Challenger will have a 6-speed Tremec available on the 5.7L (SRT model) & 6.1L (SRT8 model) cars.
http://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/challenger.html
Brent :cougarsmily:
Title: European Fords
Post by: Quietleaf on December 02, 2007, 02:31:45 PM
Ford owns Mazda, right? Maybe they're splitting the market segment along those lines to protect their overall market share. With Ford and Mazda taken together, maybe their bean counters are telling them that they'll make the most overall $$$ that way.
Title: European Fords
Post by: Carpimp1987 on December 03, 2007, 03:03:10 AM
Anyone remeber ford talking about putting a 427 or 428 or 429 in the Ford Fusion car like 2 years before they came out? 500 HP might get things moving kind of fast.
Title: European Fords
Post by: Beau on December 03, 2007, 03:32:09 AM
Quote from: Carpimp1987;190868
Anyone remeber ford talking about putting a 427 or 428 or 429 in the Ford Fusion car like 2 years before they came out? 500 HP might get things moving kind of fast.
Now that might be believable had Ford made any of those three engines in the last 4 years...:screwy: :slap: :dunce:
Title: European Fords
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 03, 2007, 04:42:38 AM
Quote from: FordTruckFreeek;190873
Now that might be believable had Ford made any of those three engines in the last 4 years...:screwy: :slap: :dunce:
Ford did build a 427ci V10 show car a few years ago. I believe it was called the Interceptor.
Title: European Fords
Post by: oldraven on December 03, 2007, 07:34:40 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;190875
Ford did build a 427ci V10 show car a few years ago. I believe it was called the Interceptor.
Actually it was called the Ford 427, and was a LOT bigger than a Fusion. It just lent the little car its styling.
How many of us know people under 35 who want a manual tranny? Most, by my count. These are the same people who for the most part don't even have domestic cars on their radar. When young people buy performance oriented cars, they're looking for at least 5 gears to row their own.
Title: European Fords
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 03, 2007, 02:24:44 PM
Quote from: oldraven;190885
How many of us know people under 35 who want a manual tranny? Most, by my count. These are the same people who for the most part don't even have domestic cars on their radar. When young people buy performance oriented cars, they're looking for at least 5 gears to row their own.
Me, and I have two auto cars :hick:
Title: European Fords
Post by: oldraven on December 03, 2007, 03:33:40 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;190929
Me, and I have two auto cars :hick:
Have and want are two very different things. ;) I guess that's proving everyone's point.
Title: European Fords
Post by: ZondaC12 on December 03, 2007, 03:42:35 PM
Quote from: oldraven;190885
Actually it was called the Ford 427, and was a LOT bigger than a Fusion. It just lent the little car its styling.
How many of us know people under 35 who want a manual tranny? Most, by my count. These are the same people who for the most part don't even have domestic cars on their radar. When young people buy performance oriented cars, they're looking for at least 5 gears to row their own.
What a sack of dumbshiznits they are for not making that....
Title: European Fords
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 03, 2007, 05:34:34 PM
Quote from: oldraven;190935
Have and want are two very different things. ;) I guess that's proving everyone's point.
It's hard to find stick cars by me. I tried to find a 5 speed SC but no luck :hick:
Title: European Fords
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 03, 2007, 08:40:11 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;190955
It's hard to find stick cars by me. I tried to find a 5 speed SC but no luck :hick:
Don't feel bad. I had to resort to driving a Saturn (although of all the shiznitbox beater cars I could've ended up with I suppose the Saturn isn't so bad).
Driving the 5-speed Saturn has cemented it into my mind that the T-Bird WILL have a 5-speed by the end of next summer... even if I have to sell the 351 to buy it.:burnout:
Title: European Fords
Post by: Carpimp1987 on December 04, 2007, 09:27:54 PM
The 427 concept looks like Ford version of a Caddy Muscle car.
Best part about ford making concept parts for sale and not the whole car.
FR200 focus intake
FR500 Wheels
2008 SVT lightning Wheels
Yes theres gotta be more to this list still kind of funny.
I am not even close to 35 and i want a P71 crown vic with a "taxi Moive car" body kit, Chrome Cobra Rs, 2 tone paint job Aqua bottom and matt Black top, and Twin turbos and GM 2 speed powerslide, Ford 9", last of all run on that E85 fuel if they would sell it here this is a very short list on mods but would be mean to be smoking little high school kids in your big old crown vic.
Was the Interceptor a nice blue and on the cover of Motor Trend Magazine sometime this year? Pics please if you can find a few.
Title: European Fords
Post by: V8Demon on December 04, 2007, 09:39:45 PM
A look at what Ford Focus should come to the states: http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/foc_c307/foc_models/foc_model_st/-/-/-/-
And one of it's competitors. I'd hit it. http://www.renaultsport.co.uk/roadcars/megane230f1/
Title: European Fords
Post by: Carpimp1987 on December 04, 2007, 09:44:30 PM
This nice looking Ford concept looks kind of like a 300C but much nicer. Sorry i was lazy telling other people to go find pics here you go.
Title: European Fords
Post by: oldraven on December 05, 2007, 07:54:28 AM
Quote from: Carpimp1987;191092
GM 2 speed powerslide,
In case you weren't joking, that would be a Powerglide, but many of them did powerslides. :)
That car in 'Taxi' was rice. All the movie's cool went out the window when the 'blower' raised up through the hood.
A look at what Ford Focus should come to the states: http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/foc_c307/foc_models/foc_model_st/-/-/-/-
And one of it's competitors. I'd hit it. http://www.renaultsport.co.uk/roadcars/megane230f1/
The Euro Focus is so much better, but then, so was the old Euro RS. I always thought the Megane looked like it had something stuck to the back of its' head, but it looks better than when Chrysler ripped it off with the Nassau concept. http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/2007_detroit/0612_2007_chrysler_nassau_concept/index.html
I still think the 2007 Mondeo is the nicest Ford sedan in decades. Many decades. http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=ford%20mondeo%202007&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Title: European Fords
Post by: Chuck W on December 05, 2007, 08:20:15 AM
Quote from: Carpimp1987;191092
I am not even close to 35 and i want a P71 crown vic with a "taxi Moive car" body kit,
Man, you do have NO taste. Crown Vics are lumps of shiznit to begin with and the they did to that car for the movie looked like X-ibit took a hit off his crack pipe before he pimped it...pretty much a riced-out C-V.
Ford USA has their head firmly implanted in ther ass, but the American driving public doesn't help matters as any decent "world car" they bring here everyone bitches about. It doesn't help that they get dumbed-down for the US market. So they bring a car over that is cool everywhere else, they neuter it for the Americans, the the public bitches about it, Ford drops it thinking that the car is a failure(even though most of the time it's THEIR fault because they killed it before it came over and they can't market for shiznit) and it gets abandoned support-wise. Then the subject comes up again and they think back on how "badly" it has worked out in the past and instead of trying to actually figure out why, they just shiznit-can the idea.
Title: European Fords
Post by: oldraven on December 05, 2007, 09:15:45 AM
Has anyone here driven a late model Crown Vic and thought, "I've got to get me one of these!"? They're fat, heavy, numb, gas pigs, that are devoid of any kind of driving pleasure. My in-laws own an '04, and that thing is about third from the bottom of my list.
Title: European Fords
Post by: tbirdsps on December 05, 2007, 09:18:38 AM
I could be wrong but I heard that Ford no longer offers a manual transmission in any full size truck. Same for GM.
Title: European Fords
Post by: Chuck W on December 05, 2007, 09:24:44 AM
Quote from: tbirdsps;191177
I could be wrong but I heard that Ford no longer offers a manual transmission in any full size truck. Same for GM.
Well this is America.....the land of the distracted, lazy drivers....
Title: European Fords
Post by: BCA on December 05, 2007, 10:02:28 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;191095
A look at what Ford Focus should come to the states: http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/foc_c307/foc_models/foc_model_st/-/-/-/-
It is available here, but unfortunately it's in Volvo trim. :(
Those are nice. I've seen a couple around. I dig what they did with the center instrument panel in the interior.
Quote from: Oldraven
Has anyone here driven a late model Crown Vic and thought, "I've got to get me one of these!"?
Most likely no....
Quote from: Chuck W
Man, you do have NO taste.
This made me laugh.
Title: European Fords
Post by: Chuck W on December 05, 2007, 10:37:24 AM
Quote from: oldraven;191176
Has anyone here driven a late model Crown Vic and thought, "I've got to get me one of these!"? They're fat, heavy, numb, gas pigs, that are devoid of any kind of driving pleasure. My in-laws own an '04, and that thing is about third from the bottom of my list.
I always thought it laughable when we were doing "performance" conversions on these lumps at KB's.
I even had to come up a CAI kit for one...:toilet:
The SC ones did sound cool on the dyno though....but I sure as hell wouldn't want one.
Title: European Fords
Post by: BCA on December 05, 2007, 10:37:34 AM
Quote from: tbirdsps;191177
I could be wrong but I heard that Ford no longer offers a manual transmission in any full size truck. Same for GM.
Simply not true. A manual transmission is available on all Ford trucks regardless of size. Ranger, F-150, F-250, F-350, & F-450. There are however some trim levels that do not have a manual transmission available, such as the F-150 in Lariat, King Ranch, or Harley Davidson trim.
Brent :cougarsmily:
Title: European Fords
Post by: oldraven on December 05, 2007, 10:58:47 AM
Quote from: tbirdsps;191177
I could be wrong but I heard that Ford no longer offers a manual transmission in any full size truck. Same for GM.
A two minute trip to the Ford or GM website could quickly clear that up.
Title: European Fords
Post by: EricCoolCats on December 05, 2007, 10:59:12 AM
Quote
How many of us know people under 35 who want a manual tranny? Most, by my count.
I'm almost 40...and I still don't want one.
The only stick-shift in the family when I was growing up was my dad's old 1978 Chevy pickup with three-on-the-tree. My brother currently has two manuals: his first car, a 1980 Trans Am; and his '97 WS6 T/A. He won't let me drive either one LOL. I basically was never exposed to manual transmissions, never learned how to drive on one, never even had access to one if I'd wanted to.
When I was in my late 20s my uncle let me use his '89 5.0 5-speed Mustang for short test drives, so I could learn how to drive stick on my own. That was truly my first exposure to a stick shift. I really, really tried hard to like the whole setup. It didn't do anything for me except to piss me off. Gave the car back to him shortly thereafter.
The point is, stick-shifts are not for everyone. For me, personally, I don't want one. I'm not Euro enough LOL. For me I don't see the point of them, especially in short commutes and stop-and-go traffic, where fuel savings are negligible and the hassles are high. But I will defend to the death the right to have one available on a vehicle. Everyone should be allowed to have that choice. And the automakers need to listen to that. There will always be people that either want them or need them. So what if it's low volume...it needs to be done, period.
Title: European Fords
Post by: oldraven on December 05, 2007, 12:14:14 PM
Quote
How many of us know people under 35 who want a manual tranny?
Date of Birth: December 17, 1969 Age: 37
I'm sorry, but you don't fit within the parameters of our focus group. Your post will be stricken from the record................ if you choose to do so.
:shakeass:
Title: European Fords
Post by: Chuck W on December 05, 2007, 12:22:33 PM
The only auto car I have (out of 4) is my euro Ford, the Scorpio...and I HATE it (the trans, not the car). One of ths things on the project list is to swap out the A4LD for a T5. The only thing slowing that down is I need to mod the trans to get the shifter in the right spot, but it WILL happen.
Title: European Fords
Post by: stuntmannick on December 05, 2007, 01:24:52 PM
I personally have a hard time considering buying a car unless it's a stick. Out of the 20+ cars I've owned ~90% were sticks and the only autos were deals I couldn't pass up.
Title: European Fords
Post by: fordman3 on December 05, 2007, 01:44:05 PM
Hey all, Thought I'd jump in on this one. To comment on someone's suggestion that Ford and GM do not offer manuals in full-size trucks; I think that is a true statement "if" you throw in that it's a V8, 1/2 ton. The first year (or two) of Ford's current F150 style, they didn't even offer a V6 or a manual. That's why they kept the older bodystyle around an extra year and called it the 2004 "Heritage" model. If you wanted an '04 F150 with a manual tranny, you had to get the older generation. I'm not sure if they had the V6 w/ manual tranny out by '05 or not. Now when you throw in heavier duty models (3/4 or 1-tons or larger), they better not ever eliminate manual trannies. That would be royally stupid. My daily driver is a '98 F150 SuperCab 2WD, with a 4.6 V8 and 5-speed. I actually hunted this truck down intentionally because '98 was the last year you could get the Lariat model with a stick, in a 1/2 ton F150. From '99 and up, they came 100% with autos. I happen to like the optioned out Lariat model with a stick, maybe just because the two seem to clash. It's definitely rare; even though the 5-speed was the standard tranny in a Lariat F150 for '97 and '98, they must have sold very few of them or nearly had to give them away. As I was told from the original owner who I bought my truck from, it sat on the lot for almost a year before he bought it. He said that when they got ready to buy a new truck, he went to the Ford lot and the salesman told him he had a good deal on a truck that had been on the lot for a while, but then figured they wouldn't want it because he assumed the wife didn't know how to drive it. The man quickly told the salesman that his wife was a better stick-shift driver than he was, which probably made him feel about a foot tall.
Blah, blah, blah...... Didn't mean to go off on a F150 tangent so much, but the point is, some very large percentage (I wouldn't even try to guess a real number without facts) of Americans don't want to shift gears. I've begged my wife ever since I got my truck to learn how to drive it, and she refuses. I'll admit, my truck is not a "fun" stick-shift to drive. As a matter of fact, it can be kind of a pain in town and traffic. But I have no desire to get rid of it. I'll always want a stick in at least 1 vehicle at my house. I find myself trying to step on the third pedal in our '99 Explorer. Most people just think it's too much work or too much to have to think about (like my wife). I personally think everyone ought to at least have some degree of experience driving a stick. You never know what situation you might find yourself in. Once in college my girlfriend needed to be taken to a hospital in a hurry (no, not for that reason), and for whatever reason both my car and hers were down. Her friend offered to let us use her car and asked, can you drive a stick? I said "sure" (my only experience had been in an old Ford truck out in the pasture at the time, not on the road). Well, I faked it enough to get to the hospital and back, and hopefully didn't roast her clutch (I think it was a Mazda 323 or something similar).
Like someone else said, I can see manual trannies getting phased in this country after a while longer. You'll still get them in a tiny compact or some sporty models (Vettes and Mustangs, etc), but not much else. I don't think that's right, but I think it will happen. Just my 0.02.
Fordman3
Title: European Fords
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 05, 2007, 03:54:52 PM
Hopefully the new fuel economy mandate will bring stick-shifts back. 35MPG overall (including trucks and SUV's) is gonna be hard to meet without 'em...
Title: European Fords
Post by: oldraven on December 05, 2007, 03:59:48 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;191208
Hopefully the new fuel economy mandate will bring stick-shifts back. 35MPG overall (including trucks and SUV's) is gonna be hard to meet without 'em...
Now how are CVT's with regards to fuel economy? Better or worse than manuals? We may be getting one this weekend, and I'm wondering if I should wait until I can find a 5-spd version.
Title: European Fords
Post by: Ductape91 on December 05, 2007, 04:42:53 PM
Quote from: stuntmannick;191199
I personally have a hard time considering buying a car unless it's a stick. Out of the 20+ cars I've owned ~90% were sticks and the only autos were deals I couldn't pass up.
same here, my tbird is the first auto car ive purchased in 4 years and it was too good(for me) to pass up. i do long for another manual trans in my life again:burnout:
as for cvt transmissions, my friends civic has it and he seems to like it for the combination of decent fuel econ. and snappy shifting. doesnt replace a manual trans that you shift for yourself in my opinion
Title: European Fords
Post by: Ether947 on December 05, 2007, 04:43:59 PM
I wanted a manual... I was denied! But the 5R55E 5-Speed auto doesn't make me hate life. At least it does what it's told when the shifter is not in "D". The shifter itself sucks. But the trans is nice. I've rode in an auto pony with a mild tune and it's pretty sweet. Nothing replaces rowing your own gears though. And my left foot is getting lonely.
Title: European Fords
Post by: daboss351 on December 05, 2007, 07:42:01 PM
Quote from: oldraven;190885
How many of us know people under 35 who want a manual tranny? Most, by my count. These are the same people who for the most part don't even have domestic cars on their radar. When young people buy performance oriented cars, they're looking for at least 5 gears to row their own.
All my friends who have recently got there license(guys) have all mostly wanted standards, for the fun of it. We like them cause we can pop in the clutch, chuck a rev, and dump it!
Title: European Fords
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 05, 2007, 07:52:52 PM
Quote from: oldraven;191210
Now how are CVT's with regards to fuel economy? Better or worse than manuals? We may be getting one this weekend, and I'm wondering if I should wait until I can find a 5-spd version.
I think CVT's are slightly better on fuel than standards because they don't have the parasitic losses of an automatic and they're supposedly always in the ideal "gear" (a CVT allows an engine to operate at a higher throttle opening for a given speed, reducing pumping losses). That being said, though, some of them have some serious durability issues (don't even think of getting a Saturn VUE with the CVT, although any dealership that's stuck with one might just about give it to you just to get rid of it). They've also got horrible "feel" - the engine RPM's don't connect with road speed, and it just feels weird. Car magazines call the effect "motorboating" because the engine actually feels and sounds like an outboard motor.
Title: European Fords
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 05, 2007, 08:26:27 PM
I wouldn't buy a Vic but for some reason the Marauders do it for me. I don't know why but I've always wanted one............
Title: European Fords
Post by: SSX on December 05, 2007, 08:43:30 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;191253
…for some reason the Marauders do it for me. I don't know why but I've always wanted one............
Me too. Add a Trilogy supercharger while you are at it.
Title: European Fords
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 05, 2007, 08:44:36 PM
Quote from: SSX;191258
Me too. Add a Trilogy supercharger while you are at it.
Oh hell yeah :D
Title: European Fords
Post by: Quietleaf on December 05, 2007, 09:05:23 PM
Quote from: Chuck W;191195
The only auto car I have (out of 4) is my euro Ford, the Scorpio...and I HATE it (the trans, not the car). One of ths things on the project list is to swap out the A4LD for a T5. The only thing slowing that down is I need to mod the trans to get the shifter in the right spot, but it WILL happen.
Did the XR4ti have the same trans? That would explain why my friend's tranny would always catch fire...
Title: European Fords
Post by: Chuck W on December 05, 2007, 09:22:05 PM
Quote from: Quietleaf;191272
Did the XR4ti have the same trans? That would explain why my friend's tranny would always catch fire...
No, the XR4Ti used the T9 manual and the C3 auto. The Scorpio did use the T9 manual trans, but they were VERY rare over here, most were auto with the A4LD.
Title: European Fords
Post by: JeremyB on December 05, 2007, 10:31:43 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;191245
I think CVT's are slightly better on fuel than standards
The CVT models have equal or less mpg than their manual variants from the cases I've looked at (Saturn VUE, Ford 500), except for the Nissan Altima 3.5.
Title: European Fords
Post by: oldraven on December 06, 2007, 12:38:38 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;191245
I think CVT's are slightly better on fuel than standards because they don't have the parasitic losses of an automatic and they're supposedly always in the ideal "gear" (a CVT allows an engine to operate at a higher throttle opening for a given speed, reducing pumping losses). That being said, though, some of them have some serious durability issues (don't even think of getting a Saturn VUE with the CVT, although any dealership that's stuck with one might just about give it to you just to get rid of it). They've also got horrible "feel" - the engine RPM's don't connect with road speed, and it just feels weird. Car magazines call the effect "motorboating" because the engine actually feels and sounds like an outboard motor.
Funny you should say that. :hick: Tomorrow I will be joining you in the world of dent resistant side panels. I would have waited for a 5-spd, but today our Jeep decided it didn't need tranny fluid to run anymore, and the one we're looking at (I've been researching the larger of the cute-utes and crossovers for about six months now, and we were planning on buying in March, but today happened), is optioned out, has the factory warranty until August, 81,000 klicks and in Truro. I've been living with 16mpg for far too long, so it's exactly what you said. A 4-cyl awd CVT.
Everything I've read about their CVT so far has been praise, saying it's one of the few that work properly, staying at peak torque and losing the false shifting that convinces misguided drivers that thier 'automatic' is working properly. I just looked it up on fueleconomy.gov, and it had a disadvantage to the 5-spd, but that's probably because the AWD doesn't come with a stick. I guess I missed that detail.
Anyway, this will be my second CVT, and I had a lot of luck with the first one, even though everyone swears it should have blown up.
"First off, the continuously variable transmission is a wonderful step forward from previous attempts. It is designed to keep the engine always in its power band for most any given speed. It does that. It's actually kind of weird, since the tach will often stay at the same rev mark yet the vehicle keeps accelerating. It's very smooth and quiet, but it doesn't transform the four-cylinder engine it's mounted to into a screamer. No doubt the CVT extracts more oomph from the four-banger than a conventional automatic, but it's still no barn-burner."
Ok, I have to stop doing this to threads.
Title: European Fords
Post by: V8Demon on December 06, 2007, 07:30:34 AM
Quote from: Ether947
But the 5R55E 5-Speed auto doesn't make me hate life
Your Mustang, like mine, has a 5R55S. You wouldn't want the E.
With Diamler pumping out 7 speed autos and now Lexus with an 8 speed self-shifter it just shows that finally companies are paying attention to the fact that most auto equipped cars forego a bit of gas mileage and efficiency and this is a step in the right direction to help counter that a bit. Had the auto in my Mustang had 4 gears instead of 5 there is absolutely no way I would have purchased it with an auto.
Title: European Fords
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 06, 2007, 09:25:17 AM
Quote from: oldraven;191298
Funny you should say that. :hick: Tomorrow I will be joining you in the world of dent resistant side panels. I would have waited for a 5-spd, but today our Jeep decided it didn't need tranny fluid to run anymore, and the one we're looking at (I've been researching the larger of the cute-utes and crossovers for about six months now, and we were planning on buying in March, but today happened), is optioned out, has the factory warranty until August, 81,000 klicks and in Truro. I've been living with 16mpg for far too long, so it's exactly what you said. A 4-cyl awd CVT.
Everything I've read about their CVT so far has been praise, saying it's one of the few that work properly, staying at peak torque and losing the false shifting that convinces misguided drivers that thier 'automatic' is working properly. I just looked it up on fueleconomy.gov, and it had a disadvantage to the 5-spd, but that's probably because the AWD doesn't come with a stick. I guess I missed that detail.
Anyway, this will be my second CVT, and I had a lot of luck with the first one, even though everyone swears it should have blown up.
"First off, the continuously variable transmission is a wonderful step forward from previous attempts. It is designed to keep the engine always in its power band for most any given speed. It does that. It's actually kind of weird, since the tach will often stay at the same rev mark yet the vehicle keeps accelerating. It's very smooth and quiet, but it doesn't transform the four-cylinder engine it's mounted to into a screamer. No doubt the CVT extracts more oomph from the four-banger than a conventional automatic, but it's still no barn-burner."
Ok, I have to stop doing this to threads.
DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!!!!
The Saturn Vue VTI (what they call their CVT) has almost a 100% failure rate. Check out saturnfans.com. Some examples:
Just don't want you to get boned on your VUE the way I did on my Volvo (I, too, had heard nothing but good about Volvos until I bought one, then found out the hard way that 98-00 AWD Volvos were absolute )
Title: European Fords
Post by: oldraven on December 07, 2007, 08:26:53 AM
Edmunds Inside Line is watching the FTBCB! Just as we're sitting here talking about how Ford needs to bring us the Mondeo, IL says the same a few days later!
I'll address the Saturn thing in a new thread. (and we all know that only means one thing)
Title: European Fords
Post by: 20th anny 5.o on December 07, 2007, 10:48:37 AM
The Mondeo is very shagy, i also noticed when going through the pictures that they haven't changed the trunk configuration from the 99 cougars/contour. I wonder if they would try and tack the Contour name back on it, and if it is successful maybe another FWD cougar??
Title: European Fords
Post by: Ether947 on December 07, 2007, 12:04:58 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;191312
Your Mustang, like mine, has a 5R55S. You wouldn't want the E.
Barnacles... stoopid letter. Out of curiosity why wouldn't I want that trans?
Title: European Fords
Post by: V8Demon on December 07, 2007, 07:34:53 PM
Less durable components on the E model. FYI if you wanna install a dipstick: http://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/tech-exchange/466716-5r55s-dipstick-install.html