Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: 88XR7 on November 18, 2007, 12:31:43 PM

Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: 88XR7 on November 18, 2007, 12:31:43 PM
Any personal experiences????

I really wanna know how the idle will be, it's not a large cam so I'm thinking I can get away with it.
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: dominator on November 18, 2007, 06:03:50 PM
If you want to put a cam in speed density auto car i think the e303 is the way to go,b303 is more of a stick cam.
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: V8Demon on November 18, 2007, 06:36:04 PM
Neither one will idle well.  Ford alphabet cams have poor vacuum characteristics at idle and low RPM's.  Speed Density likes lots of vacuum.  There are plenty of "bigger" cams that will actually work much better.
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: Cad-T-Bird 500 on November 18, 2007, 08:23:53 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;188418
There are plenty of "bigger" cams that will actually work much better.


Got examples?

TED
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: V8Demon on November 19, 2007, 02:54:14 AM
T-jet posted a chart from 50tech.com http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=16085&highlight=speed+density+cam
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 19, 2007, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: 88XR7;188361
Any personal experiences????

I really wanna know how the idle will be, it's not a large cam so I'm thinking I can get away with it.

Chances are ZERO & NONE...

Speed Densety will not like ANY cam with more than approx 212-215* @ .050 and less than 114* lobe center...
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: screaming306 on November 20, 2007, 10:46:42 AM
Think of SPEED DENSITY as the evil green peace overlord of hell. who's number one goal is non-performance cars, no horsepower, and no speed.  you wanna live forever , drive speed density, and all the old people will fly passed you. sorry about the rant.....i'm either old school, or mass air. the speed density e.c.m. has very little room to play with your cars engine setup. sorry
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: 1WLD BRD on November 20, 2007, 12:03:17 PM
Quote from: screaming306;188735
Think of SPEED DENSITY as the evil green peace overlord of hell. who's number one goal is non-performance cars, no horsepower, and no speed.  you wanna live forever , drive speed density, and all the old people will fly passed you. sorry about the rant.....i'm either old school, or mass air. the speed density e.c.m. has very little room to play with your cars engine setup. sorry


um, thats why the '87-'88 stangs where faster out of the factory then the '89-'93's?  I had my stock speed density '88 stang running in the 12's @104mph...  Thats not fast?
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: screaming306 on November 20, 2007, 12:27:56 PM
I helped a friend of mine gasket port (matched the port openings to the gaskets size on the intake and exhuast) the heads on his 87 f-150. (thought it would help)  truck ran great before. afterwards it ran like shiznit, wouldn't idle, fell flat on its face. no power. after lots of cusing and a few months he ponied up and bought the $700.00 kit from jegs to convert to mass air. no problems since. so after watching his bad luck unfold, i stay away from the speed density.
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 20, 2007, 01:41:38 PM
As long as you have more than 16/17" vac the speed densety will be happy(idle)... This isn't to say it could lean out with large enough airflow(heads, intake, exhaust, etc)...

The SD is not a bad system, it just has to be programmed for the particular engine it is operating... IF you had large cam, heads, inj etc and it was programmed for these and to idle on 12" of vac it would be great...
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 20, 2007, 03:40:15 PM
Quote from: screaming306;188735
Think of SPEED DENSITY as the evil green peace overlord of hell. who's number one goal is non-performance cars, no horsepower, and no speed.  you wanna live forever , drive speed density, and all the old people will fly passed you. sorry about the rant.....i'm either old school, or mass air. the speed density e.c.m. has very little room to play with your cars engine setup. sorry


Quote from: screaming306;188753
I helped a friend of mine gasket port (matched the port openings to the gaskets size on the intake and exhuast) the heads on his 87 f-150. (thought it would help)  truck ran great before. afterwards it ran like shiznit, wouldn't idle, fell flat on its face. no power. after lots of cusing and a few months he ponied up and bought the $700.00 kit from jegs to convert to mass air. no problems since. so after watching his bad luck unfold, i stay away from the speed density.


Your friend fvcked up then. My GT40 headed .533 lift cammed SD Bird runs fine. Probably has just as much balls as your carbed set up.
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: 32VFoxBird on November 20, 2007, 03:58:49 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;188775
Your friend fvcked up then. My GT40 headed .533 lift cammed SD Bird runs fine. Probably has just as much balls as your carbed set up.


your cam works fine because of the short duration(more vacuum). if you were to bump up to a cam with more duration(less vacuum), it would run like shiznit without Mass Air.

lift isnt the only thing different on aftermarket cams.
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 20, 2007, 04:18:55 PM
Quote from: 32VFoxBird;188778
your cam works fine because of the short duration(more vacuum). if you were to bump up to a cam with more duration(less vacuum), it would run like shiznit without Mass Air.

lift isnt the only thing different on aftermarket cams.


I know. But if his friend just ported the heads and caused the SD computer to go crazy..............he had to do something else besides port match the heads. GT40Ps flow more than simple port matched E7s and I have no problems. He had to add too big of a cam or something......
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: V8Demon on November 20, 2007, 04:54:20 PM
I'd have to agree.  I had an aftermarket cam with speed density.  The previous owner of the car installed the cam.  The heads and intake had work done to them too.

Something else was wrong IMHO. 
Like Tom said once you start to go nuts you have to calibrate the SD for the combo.  Most aftermarket computer setups are SD.

The '87 F-150 cam has the same lift as the SO cam.  I've never been able to find duration #'s to compare the two, but I'll guess it has a little more duration than the SO cam due to the extra weight, E7 heads from the factory and 19 pound injectors as opposed to 14's.

I can't really see the duration being too much though, at least not enough to interfere with a simple port match job to the point where it makes it run all messed up.  The cam specs on Thunderjet's cam are here: http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Search/CamDetails.asp?PartNumber=35-308-8

***With all this being said, I've had an idea floating in my head for a while that I'd like to try, but just haven't gotten around to it.  It involves my current motor setup in the Cougar,  a vacuum sytem and speed density.  Perhaps in the springtime.....
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 20, 2007, 10:07:49 PM
Vac can? ;)
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: t.birdsc on November 20, 2007, 11:19:48 PM
Per Ford Racing:
 On EFI engines, performance camshafts work only with mass air induction systems.(B303, E303, F303, X303, Z303 cams)
 Speed density system, airflow is "inferred".
 Mass air system, airflow is measured directly. It reacts faster and more accurately to changes in airflow and improves idle quality and overall vehicle perfromance.
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: V8Demon on November 20, 2007, 11:47:24 PM
Quote
It reacts faster and more accurately to changes in airflow and improves idle quality and overall vehicle perfromance.


FYI 87-88 5.0 HO' were the fastest in bone stock trim.  If you can tune it properly SD is the way to go.  Problem is that it gets expensive when you start playing with longer duration cams.  Mass Air is much more forgiving in stock trim (OEM-wise) and cheaper.  WIth some skills you can tune it though.  Once you go balls out you'll need an aftermarket ECU anyway so.....
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: t.birdsc on November 21, 2007, 12:52:10 AM
Good job thunderjet with that speed density setup! Looks like a  quick car.
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: t.birdsc on November 21, 2007, 01:01:22 AM
Quote from: 1WLD BRD;188748
um, thats why the '87-'88 stangs where faster out of the factory then the '89-'93's?  I had my stock speed density '88 stang running in the 12's @104mph...  Thats not fast?


 Were the specs on the cams the same? Did the small mass air meters have anything to do with the later models lower power? Were the compression specs the same?
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: V8Demon on November 21, 2007, 01:48:43 AM
Quote
Were the specs on the cams the same?


There was a change in '91.  A slight one, but as far as 87-90 yes they were.

Quote
Did the small mass air meters have anything to do with the later models lower power?


Realisticly? 5hp.  MAX  In stock form anyway.

Quote
Were the compression specs the same?


Yes.  Same heads, block, pistons, rods, crank, and head gaskets.  Piston change in '93 to Hypereutectic as opposed to forged.  Same specs on size, comp. height, valve relief size, etc.....


****** There is hearsay that the '86 and VERY EARLY '87 cam in the HO was an ever so slightly different grind that was a little more aggresive.  I've never heard confirmation or seen any hard facts or evidence to support whether this is in fact true ******EDIT the HO cam had a part # change for the 88 model year....the cam may have snuck in some late 87's.....
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 21, 2007, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: t.birdsc;188883
Good job thunderjet with that speed density setup! Looks like a  quick car.


It's a bit quick ;)

Quote from: V8Demon;188886
There was a change in '91.  A slight one, but as far as 87-90 yes they were.



Realisticly? 5hp.  MAX  In stock form anyway.



Yes.  Same heads, block, pistons, rods, crank, and head gaskets.  Piston change in '93 to Hypereutectic as opposed to forged.  Same specs on size, comp. height, valve relief size, etc.....


****** There is hearsay that the '86 and VERY EARLY '87 cam in the HO was an ever so slightly different grind that was a little more aggresive.  I've never heard confirmation or seen any hard facts or evidence to support whether this is in fact true ******


IIRC the engine components (H/C/I) were the same (excpet for the slight chance that the 86-87 cams were a bit better). The major difference was in the computer calibration. Each successive year from 87 on the computers got a little less aggressive programs to help with emissions.
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: 88XR7 on November 22, 2007, 08:18:18 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;188942
It's a bit quick ;)



IIRC the engine components (H/C/I) were the same (excpet for the slight chance that the 86-87 cams were a bit better). The major difference was in the computer calibration. Each successive year from 87 on the computers got a little less aggressive programs to help with emissions.


So in essence a 88 would be less agressive then a 87 and 87 less then 86...
Is an 86 HO speed density computer a decent one to run then? I found one local for a decent price.

Also, the 1986 SD HO uses 19 lb injectors right? If so, could I go grab the 19lb injectors from a 93HO (MAF Duh) Cougar I saw in the junkyard and use those without a problem?
Title: B303 + Speed Density = ??
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 22, 2007, 10:05:48 AM
Basically any HO computer will operate any orange top 19lb inj...

My 5 speed '86 5.0 stang used to buck like a sum bish unless I ran Amoco premium... Ran good though... Converted it to Mass Air using a '89 A9P auto EEC(was told it was a stick)... Still bucked(& lost .25 sec at the track).. Finally sold it and kept the A9P... Inst that same EEC in my Bird, it bucked... Tried a C3W1(Motorsport EEC), it bucked... Finally a '89 A9L from the flooded stang convert fixed the problem...

Yea more info than you wanted, but gives a idea how different EEC's can react...