Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: 88XR7 on October 19, 2007, 08:12:50 PM
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 88XR7 on October 19, 2007, 08:12:50 PM
Anyone know of one for a 302. I searched and didn't really come up with anything in depth, I'm talking like pictures and all..
Just planning at the moment, all help appreciated.
** SEE POST #4**
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 32VFoxBird on October 19, 2007, 09:13:21 PM
EFI garbage? or are you talking about hiding most of the wiring?
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 87tbirdmanjwg on October 19, 2007, 09:19:17 PM
I'll post some engine compartment shots of mine...I hid all of my wiring harness sections in the fenders and behind the firewall. (edit)...Any of you who checked out the pics I posted of my engine would have seen the lack of wiring in my engine compartment. And yes! everything works just fine.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 88XR7 on October 19, 2007, 09:38:47 PM
Excuse, I meant whilst doing a EFI -> Carb swap, what all can you get rid of without repercusions...
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: CougarSE on October 19, 2007, 09:56:46 PM
No but I'm sure a bunch of us can give you a writeup on a foolish idea's
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: Innes on October 20, 2007, 07:30:29 AM
This will help EFI to carb conversion very good write up http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/efi-carb/efi-carb.htm
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: dominator on October 20, 2007, 11:11:56 AM
All i have to say sir is "you stupid" yea let's go back in time because i don't understand efi and am a retard!!!!!! It's called do the reasearch and stop looking for the easy cheap way out. Sorry guys but when i see a post like this it just me off that someone would waist our board space with this .
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: vinnietbird on October 20, 2007, 11:55:08 AM
I want to see the hidden wiring pics.As far as carbs go.I personally wouldn't go back to a carb,but,it's all a matter of personal taste with their own cars.The same way some people want full out race cars,and some don't.Everyone has their own vision for their car.I'm sure we have all done some mod to our cars that others wouldn't care for.I support the carb conversion,although I would go that direction myself.Today,with all of the aftermarket parts available for the 5.0 at really cheap prices (Ebay,here,the Corral,etc.),the sky is the limit with EFI,plus,awesome reliablity in all weather as well.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 88XR7 on October 20, 2007, 02:59:35 PM
Quote from: dominator;183468
All i have to say sir is "you stupid" yea let's go back in time because i don't understand efi and am a retard!!!!!! It's called do the reasearch and stop looking for the easy cheap way out. Sorry guys but when i see a post like this it just me off that someone would waist our board space with this .
That's fine get as pissy as you want and insult me. I'd rather change jets when I do a mod rather then go and get a tune.
:burnout:
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: jcassity on October 20, 2007, 03:36:36 PM
actually , if your a carb guy then you have your own answers. Just jank out everything eec related and start from there. pertty easy other than dealing with the fuel tank/fuel pump.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: lakenheath24 on October 20, 2007, 04:16:01 PM
hey dude how bout posting those pics of the hidden wire bundles!!!!! i've decided to pull my motor and do a restoration and i want to clean up the bay. L24
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: cougarcragar on October 20, 2007, 04:19:08 PM
Quote from: dominator;183468
All i have to say sir is "you stupid" yea let's go back in time because i don't understand efi and am a retard!!!!!! It's called do the reasearch and stop looking for the easy cheap way out. Sorry guys but when i see a post like this it just me off that someone would waist our board space with this .
Take it easy. It's his car and he can do absolutely anything he wants. He isn't "waisting" any of our time on the forums. After all, that's one of the reasons why we're here in the first place - to offer help.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 20, 2007, 04:50:37 PM
LOL coolcats.net has the article on CFI -> Carb conversion so I would say it should be allowed here. :hick:
But really, I have learned a lot about EFI with this car but I STILL dont like cars + computers. I really prefer the old stuff, I wish I was growing up 30 or 40 years ago, "changin jets" like 88XR7 said.
Too many wires.....looks like a robot or something imho. I never get tired of lookin at an old carbed motor with the big round canister air filter.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: Chooglin on October 20, 2007, 05:39:24 PM
Quote from: ZondaC12;183509
LOL coolcats.net has the article on CFI -> Carb conversion so I would say it should be allowed here. :hick:
But really, I have learned a lot about EFI with this car but I STILL dont like cars + computers. I really prefer the old stuff, I wish I was growing up 30 or 40 years ago, "changin jets" like 88XR7 said.
Too many wires.....looks like a robot or something imho. I never get tired of lookin at an old carbed motor with the big round canister air filter.
x2
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: jncocowboyx on October 20, 2007, 07:01:30 PM
anything's an improvement from cfi imo.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: vinnietbird on October 20, 2007, 08:07:17 PM
I LOOOOOVE looking at my EFI engine.It's really nice now that I have my personally fabbed by Vinnietbird "one of none" Cobra intake on.Sweeeeet.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 347Thunder on October 20, 2007, 08:53:41 PM
I prefer carb to efi because of the thousands of dollars you will spend trying to make the thing run correctly.First you have upper and lower intake,new mass meter,throttle body,new injectors every month to find the right ones,just goes on and on.Non injected set up first intake then carb, even easier to type.Don't get me wrong nothing like getting in your car if it's been sitting for a few months and it starts right up, try that with a carb not going to happen. I just feel that I could by a nice set of heads that will pick up some real improvement not more hassle. [COLOR="Red"]K. I. S. S KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID[/COLOR]
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: dominator on October 20, 2007, 09:30:14 PM
My opinion and i'm entitled to it,just as he's entitled to his!!! It's called an ANDERSON PMS handheld tuner,i change something on my combo and i retune myself,no need for outside help. You wanna go carb your loss. As stated by many above, use the search button and look at tech and you'll get your answers but not by me.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 32VFoxBird on October 20, 2007, 10:37:18 PM
this thread needs to be locked or have the garbage removed. this wasnt a "what's your opinion on EFI" thread. if you have no useful info for this topic, then dont reply.
BTW, this subject has been covered many times, if you would just do a thorough search, you'll find your answer.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 347Thunder on October 20, 2007, 11:20:30 PM
Quote from: dominator;183545
My opinion and i'm entitled to it,just as he's entitled to his!!! It's called an ANDERSON PMS handheld tuner,i change something on my combo and i retune myself,no need for outside help. You wanna go carb your loss. As stated by many above, use the search button and look at tech and you'll get your answers but not by me.
So you tune it yourself to be stock or not stock but still slow.:D Look at most fast natural aspirated engines you will see a carb 9 out of 10times, they are just better for hp unless you need to buy grocerys then EFI is more what you are looking for.
Now for the wire removal I am still going through it and making it as small as possible but you need to check every wire to see their place and cross your fingers.Now I have found out that my front blinkers don't work but I remove a lot of wires so I can't complain. good luck, good choice for someone without a bottomless pocket.:burnout:
Title: rewired
Post by: screaming306 on October 20, 2007, 11:39:00 PM
on my 1984 t-bird it had a v-6 tbi automatic. i rewired with a harness from bumper to bumper from a 1983 t-bird that had a CARB v-6 auto, it made it very very easy to use my 306, 4 bbl carb, c-4 setup. cause the 83 used a duraspark 2 ignition setup, which if you are using an msd box they really like the setup.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: vinnietbird on October 21, 2007, 12:23:33 AM
Both sides have their ups and downs.It comes down to personal preference.No big deal either way as long as you're happy.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: V8Demon on October 21, 2007, 01:19:17 AM
Quote
I'd rather change jets when I do a mod rather then go and get a tune.
SInce when do you need to "get a tune" to modify an EEC-IV computer controlled 5.0? It'll help to extract every last hidden HP out, sure, but for most street 5.0's with even head, cam and intake manifold swaps and even bigger displacement a "tune" is not absolutely necessary. You can do many of the adjustments to get it run properly yourself just as you can with a carb.
On YOUR car for some of the above mentioned mods, a mass air conversion may be required.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 1WLD BRD on October 21, 2007, 01:56:58 AM
Hell I love my carbed stang and am glad to be back in something as simple and clean looking as a carbed engine bay. WAY less clutter. To each their own man. I say go carbed, especially if you DONT have thousands to throw at your car, hell I have thought about throwing my Edelbrock intake on my XR-7, (and would do it if it was just a regular Cougar...). Much easier AND cheaper for someone just getting into modifing cars to deal with. If you have a decent carb it should start right up after a few months of sitting. my '85 Cougar use to. three pumps of the gashiznit the key and it would crank right up.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on October 21, 2007, 09:56:28 AM
If and when I put the 351 into my car it will be carbed. As 347Thunder pointed out, building a carb engine is much, much cheaper than going EFI, especially with a 351. If it was a daily driver I'd keep it EFI (heck, if it was a DD I'd not even consider the 351, what with gas as pricy as it is), but for an occasional blast through the country roads a carb is just the ticket...
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: vinnietbird on October 21, 2007, 10:13:22 AM
I'm hoping for a 5.8 next fall.EFI,though.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: Clayton on October 21, 2007, 12:45:05 PM
all you need to do basicly is get you a duraspark box from and older carbed ford car, fix your pickup from the tank so it doesnt have the fuel pump on it but remains stable in the tank. plug the return side. and possibly run new line up to a mech. pump on the engine.
Thats basically it. you coud make improvements like a MSD box instead of a duraspark
theres going carb in a nutshell. Hell, If I didnt already have half the stuff... I'd go carb on my bird. Like others said earlier, it looks way cleaner, less wires, and SOOOO much easier to mod. If ya wanna change the cam.... do it! heads intake and cam with a good carb, you could make just above 300 hp easy for around 500$ if you play your cards right. EFI, you wanna make 300 hp, you need correct injectors computer, correct cam, correct calibrated MAF, hell even a chip if needed and all of that could cost upwards of 8-900$
I say screw what everybody says, its your car. go carb!
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 87tbirdmanjwg on October 21, 2007, 09:56:46 PM
Yep, I almost considered going carbed with my setup. I had it all planed out...Parker funnel web-ported to perfection of course and a 650 street demon. I think I would have made more top end HP, but I would have lost a bit of torque as a trade -off due to shorter intake runners. I would have spent a good bit less too. I love EFI but its hard to beat a good carbed set-up for simpicity. It took me 2 weeks to get my 308 to run good after fighting the ecm,tps and maf. then finally I got them to all play well together:hick:
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: vinnietbird on October 21, 2007, 10:47:12 PM
I have the duraspark box.Nearly new.let me know if you'll be needing it.Good luck with the project.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: Innes on October 22, 2007, 07:35:17 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;183625
If and when I put the 351 into my car it will be carbed. As 347Thunder pointed out, building a carb engine is much, much cheaper than going EFI, especially with a 351. If it was a daily driver I'd keep it EFI (heck, if it was a DD I'd not even consider the 351, what with gas as pricy as it is), but for an occasional blast through the country roads a carb is just the ticket...
X2 I just rebuilt my 302 w/no serious mods to upgrade the fuel injection or computer still running 19lbers but I did want to do a 351 block if that were the case was to go carb the difference to me was about 500 for a carb and intake to a completely upgraded injection system some even recommend if your going to spend the money on fuel injection to go completely after market. But like some said its his car as long as he’s happy.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 88XR7 on October 23, 2007, 01:28:23 AM
Quote from: Innes;183972
X2 I just rebuilt my 302 w/no serious mods to upgrade the fuel injection or computer still running 19lbers but I did want to do a 351 block if that were the case was to go carb the difference to me was about 500 for a carb and intake to a completely upgraded injection system some even recommend if your going to spend the money on fuel injection to go completely after market. But like some said its his car as long as he’s happy.
Honestly, I think she will stay EFI for now. ...as for as when big mods come, I'm leaning towards carb :shrug:
Quick question: Will running a bone stock HO block (stock cam, compression, etc) with E7 heads with upgraded springs run fine on the Non-HO Speed Density?
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: vinnietbird on October 23, 2007, 06:52:17 AM
Yes.It'll be fine.Throw in an H.O cam,Speed Density computer,and some 19# injectors,and then,a set of factory Stang headers and dual exhaust,Mustang upper intake,and you will then have the H.O upgrade.It really is that easy,and pretty cheap,and very reliable.The parts can be found on Ebay and the Corral forums for cheap.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on October 23, 2007, 09:48:44 AM
No it won't be fine. The non-HO speed density computer would puke on the HO cam, the injector firing order would be wrong, and if you upgraded to 19-lb injectors the non-HO computer (which is calibrated for 14-lb injectors) would make the car run way rich.
If you want to keep the stock, non-HO computer, you can use all the HO parts EXCEPT the cam and injectors.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: V8Demon on October 23, 2007, 12:51:44 PM
Quote
No it won't be fine. The non-HO speed density computer would puke on the HO cam, the injector firing order would be wrong, and if you upgraded to 19-lb injectors the non-HO computer (which is calibrated for 14-lb injectors) would make the car run way rich.
If you want to keep the stock, non-HO computer, you can use all the HO parts EXCEPT the cam and injectors.
Gotta disagree Carm. It CAN work..... While using an HO computer with the HO cam would be the proper thing to do running the SO computer for a while WITH AN ADJUSTABLE FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR would work. If he were to do so repinning the injectors would be a no-no. Leave th injector wiring alone. Here's a write-up explaining why.
Quote
the problem is that you will force the system to run into what's called, an "Adaptive Strategy " condition. When you check SD/MA EEC-IV systems ECM pinout at the ECM ('86-'93), HO and non-HO, with the exception of the '91-'93 T-Bird MA system (similar to '94-'95 Mustang systems).....all have the same arrangement.
If you change the injector pins, the system will adjust fuel trim on a bank 1 injector, based on the B1 O2 readings, for an injector that is now connected in bank 2, and vice versa........for example, using their layout you have a 154.... firing order
1 - 5 - 4 - 2 - 6 - 3 - 7 - 8 which divided by bank (B1 = cyl 1-4 and B2 = cyl. 5-8) would be.....
B1-B2-B1-B1-B2-B1-B2-B2......now you switch the injector wiring .....5-to-3, 4-to-7, 3-to-5 and 7-to-4......to ensure the injectors firing order......
B1-B1-B2-B1-B2-B2-B1-B2.....when you lay it out by bank, but it's not.... what happens to the "logic".....
EXAMPLE: B1 O2 reads RICH condition and adjusts (shortens) fuel trim pulse for B1 injectors (1-4)
1. System shortens B1 fuel trim, but since #3 and #4 are now in B2 (5 and 7).....such a change will not be enough since the O2 in B1 will read half of the fuel trim effect (2 injectors), so the system continues to shorten fuel trim even further.....looking for a change in B1 AF readings....but wait, there's more......The fuel pulse tpuppies for B1 will affect B2 O2 readings (#3 and #4 are in B2)....causing B2 readings to be LEAN...
2. The system then determines it needs to lengthen B2 fuel pulse due to #1 above, and it does for the 5-8 injectors, but since #5 and #7 are now in B1, the adjustment for B2 affects B1 O2 readings....causing B1 to continue to read RICH. And since B2 O2 readings have not changed that much, the system continues to lengthen B2 fuel trim pulse.........
For crying out loud, the system is going crazy..... ...(I know I am explaining this.....)...and will eventually cause a ....condition from the ECM.
It's like having a normal EEC-IV system, but installing the LH O2 sensor to the RH connector and vice versa.....the system will adjust injectors 1-4 based on the AF readings from injectors 5-8......and ....I've seen a few of those cases as well......
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 88XR7 on October 23, 2007, 02:08:13 PM
I apologize, I intended to say with the SO cam, it would only be the HO rotating assembly and heads along with the HO 'headers'.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 32VFoxBird on October 23, 2007, 09:07:16 PM
there's nothing "HO" about the crank and rods.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 88XR7 on October 23, 2007, 10:06:10 PM
Quote from: 32VFoxBird;184198
there's nothing "HO" about the crank and rods.
Well doesn't the CR change with the block and head compared to a stock SO?
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 32VFoxBird on October 23, 2007, 10:09:50 PM
yes, should be around 9:1.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: V8Demon on October 24, 2007, 11:41:36 AM
SO heads have a bigger chamber, but HO pistons have a dish/valve reliefs.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: jcassity on October 26, 2007, 12:46:54 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;184115
Gotta disagree Carm. It CAN work..... While using an HO computer with the HO cam would be the proper thing to do running the SO computer for a while WITH AN ADJUSTABLE FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR would work. If he were to do so repinning the injectors would be a no-no. Leave th injector wiring alone. Here's a write-up explaining why.
where'd you get that stuff at????? awsome resources you seem to come up with now and again.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: blu84302 on October 26, 2007, 12:58:58 AM
My 84 SO came with vavle reliefs. Just thought I'd share that info.
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: Carpimp1987 on October 26, 2007, 03:34:00 AM
The only thing i want thats not EFI is a 1967 to 1970 mercury cougar with side pipes painted salt flats and a big blower sticking out of the hood oh wait and a Pantera and thats about it.
Do you work on Carb cars a lot yourself?
Title: Detailed writeup on eliminating EFI garbage from engine bay?
Post by: 88XR7 on October 26, 2007, 11:07:27 PM
Quote from: Carpimp1987;184680
The only thing i want thats not EFI is a 1967 to 1970 mercury cougar with side pipes painted salt flats and a big blower sticking out of the hood oh wait and a Pantera and thats about it.