Still, 90 percent of the cars and trucks on Consumer Reports' list of the most-reliable vehicles are from puppiesanese manufacturers. In fact, Toyota still had more models on that list than any other automaker.
Quote
Champion said Ford's quality improvements appear to be real and sustained. He said the quality of Ford's cars and trucks has been improving consistently for the past five years.
Ford's big bugaboo, he added, is its products' styling.
"The problem with Ford vehicles is that they're a bit boring," he said.
While Ford's quality has been improving, Toyota's has been declining.
"Just because a vehicle is made in puppiesan, doesn't mean it has bulletproof quality," Champion said.
Quote
Toyota representatives in the audience at Consumer Reports' Tuesday presentation reacted coolly to the findings and tried to downplay their importance.
"We're going to look forward to buttstuffyzing their data in depth," said Toyota spokesman John McCandless, who said Toyota's internal quality studies have not identified problems with any of the three models given bad marks by Consumer Reports. "I don't think it will impact sales."
Some industry observers disagreed. "I would expect them to say that," said Erich Merkle of IRN Inc.
In other words...the bias lives on. Still, it's a rare victory for Ford nowadays. With extremely safe new vehicles, some of the most solid lineups they've had in years, and now with quality kudos, Ford is looking fairly spiffy right now. Now if they could only fire their asshat designers and get some good looking vehicles...
Oh, and Mulally reiterated that Mercury is still alive: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071016/FREE/71016001/1530/FREE
Quote
Mulally, lumping Mercury’s sales performance in with Lincoln, said: “It’s a great product line, and dealers are very happy with it. Sales are spectacular for Lincoln Mercury. In some areas, Lincoln Mercury has been growing faster than Ford.”
WHOOP! WHOOP! I smell marketing PR!
[SIZE="1"](Never trust a redhead.) ;)[/SIZE]
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: mercury-man on October 17, 2007, 10:47:32 AM
:bowdown: :cheers: Here's to Fords and Mercury's may they never be put to rest. A+:birdsmily: :cougarsmily:
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 17, 2007, 11:05:33 AM
A bias toward puppiesenese cars? Really? I never thought Consumer Reports was biased toward puppiesenese cars. After all they always tell the truth (car seat incident):rolleyes:
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: CougarSE on October 17, 2007, 01:24:47 PM
I work at a Lincoln/Mercury dealership. Milt Taylor Lincoln Mercury in fact.
The new cars are amazing. The new Sable? Very nice. Montego or not the car is freaking amazing.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: EricCoolCats on October 17, 2007, 01:52:04 PM
The thing about all the new Ford/Lincoln/Mercury models is...
On paper, they're an incredible bargain. In reality, they're extremely well constructed and reliable. In crash testing, they're very, very safe. In features they are mostly on par with other automakers, with some things (like the Sync option) unique.
But in styling...not so much uniqueness. I like the way they look, and happen to be fond of the Mercury versions vs. the Ford versions. But are these vehicles too stylized now? There is no roughness, no sharp edges...it's all dumbed down. Yeah, everyone else is like that too. I find it difficult to call the Fusion "bland" compared to a Camry or Accord. But they're all vanilla to begin with. Consumers are buying based upon what's "on paper" and less by what their eyes see. There is no passion in that. And automakers keep giving them more of the same bland stuff.
Guess I'm just stuck in the '80s when Ford vehicles had almost everything: safety, luxury features, and unique styling. (And lack of power! Woohoo!). You can't have everything.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: mercury-man on October 17, 2007, 02:17:25 PM
Eric-The 80's automobiles were suppose to look (aero-dynamic)? But now there just making up things as they go. There's no looking back because it's in the future now. And making those cars similar to the other companys is their way of saying that they are better. LOL :cougarsmily: :cougarsmily:
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: oldraven on October 17, 2007, 02:24:08 PM
Quote from: CougarSE;182986
I work at a Lincoln/Mercury dealership. Milt Taylor Lincoln Mercury in fact.
The new cars are amazing. The new Sable? Very nice. Montego or not the car is freaking amazing.
Too bad the name change didn't help them sell any better. In fact, the 500, Montego, and Freestyle are selling worse as the Taurus/X, and Sable. "What is in a name?" Not much, apparently.
It's good to see CR forced to admit that, yes, Toyota can fail.
And wow! Nice new format, detnews!:headbang:
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: Cougar5.0 on October 17, 2007, 02:26:43 PM
Quote from: EricCoolCats;182952
As much as we've discussed the bias of Consumer Reports in the past, it looks like Ford has impressed them:
In other words...the bias lives on. Still, it's a rare victory for Ford nowadays. With extremely safe new vehicles, some of the most solid lineups they've had in years, and now with quality kudos, Ford is looking fairly spiffy right now. Now if they could only fire their asshat designers and get some good looking vehicles...
Oh, and Mulally reiterated that Mercury is still alive: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071016/FREE/71016001/1530/FREE
WHOOP! WHOOP! I smell marketing PR!
[SIZE="1"](Never trust a redhead.) ;)[/SIZE]
Yay!!!
How did Chrysler fare? My PT Cruiser may very well be the worst car I've ever owned - what a piece of falling apart .
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: silvercv2002 on October 17, 2007, 02:33:12 PM
Thanks for the kind words, guys. We are getting better everyday....
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: shame302 on October 17, 2007, 08:11:04 PM
theres no doubt fit and finish has gotten MUCH better the last few years....
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: P71 on October 17, 2007, 10:20:03 PM
Quote from: CougarSE;182986
I work at a Lincoln/Mercury dealership. Milt Taylor Lincoln Mercury in fact.
The new cars are amazing. The new Sable? Very nice. Montego or not the car is freaking amazing.
My Mom bought a new 500 last year, it is very nice! And her's isn't even a top-of-line model either. I checked out some Montego's just to compare and their interiors are even better. That car/platform impresses the hell out of me.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: xjeffs on October 17, 2007, 10:33:44 PM
Quote from: EricCoolCats;182989
The thing about all the new Ford/Lincoln/Mercury s is...
On paper, they're an incredible bargain. In reality, they're extremely well constructed and reliable. In crash testing, they're very, very safe. In features they are mostly on par with other automakers, with some things (like the Sync option) unique.
But in styling...not so much uniqueness. I like the way they look, and happen to be fond of the Mercury versions vs. the Ford versions. But are these vehicles too stylized now? There is no roughness, no sharp edges...it's all dumbed down. Yeah, everyone else is like that too. I find it difficult to call the Fusion "bland" compared to a Camry or Accord. But they're all vanilla to begin with. Consumers are buying based upon what's "on paper" and less by what their eyes see. There is no passion in that. And automakers keep giving them more of the same bland stuff.
Guess I'm just stuck in the '80s when Ford vehicles had almost everything: safety, luxury features, and unique styling. (And lack of power! Woohoo!). You can't have everything.
The sad thing is that most cars buyers are not passionate about cars, like those of us in this forum. Toyota and Honda make cars for the passionless masses and reap the benefits. The passionless are the targets and those with passion that actually create huge excitement about cars are left without their market needs met.
I think Mercury should actually be closed, and I'm a Mercury man. It doesn't make business sense to use valuable resources of a greatly depleted FoMoCo work force making three of the same cars with a different face and features. None of the successful car companies are doing it. I do hope it somehow works out for the better for FoMoCo.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: CougarSE on October 17, 2007, 10:37:48 PM
We had a Sable Premier on the showroom floor for a while. Fully loaded. Farking expensive but OMG! That thing was amazing. Another surprise surprise! car... the Mariner. Those things have freaking awesome interiors in them, I love having to move those things :D
The Milan is pretty nice overall. You can get it with a 5 speed too!
However I am not impressed with the Lincoln offerings. MKZ is alright I guess.. but small. The Navigator is well a Navigator. Very odd styling. Looks kind of like a rocket ship more than a Ford. The dash in those appears to be taken from the parts bin of a 66 Mustang with a cluster out of a 80 Lincoln something.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: 5.0willgo on October 18, 2007, 08:55:10 AM
I like the Milan a lot. I was iffy on it when they first came out but we rented one when we went to Florida two years ago and it was a very nice car.
I first thought that the Fusion and Milan were boring, but they grew on me. IMO, there's nothing really boring about the styling of either of them. In fact, I think they are the nicest sedan offerings that FoMoCo has. Even better style wise than the Taurus/Sable.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: Red_LX on October 18, 2007, 02:52:37 PM
I'm not sure how they can say Ford's styling is bland.
Honda and Toyota had bland styling for YEARS! They're only just now making the Accord and Camry look like something besides a box with wheels.
And has anyone seen the new Subaru Impreza? Good Lord, they made that thing look about as generic as they possibly could.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: CougarSE on October 18, 2007, 05:23:07 PM
At work today I was admiring the Milan. We have a black one with big wheels.. Very nice looking car..
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: P71 on October 18, 2007, 06:06:32 PM
How's it drive compared to the Montego/Sable? Does it have AWD too?
We have a Fusion here in town in a bright red metallic color with a tasteful body kit and BBS style wheels on it, it looks SHARP. Wish I knew more about it?
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: Chuck W on October 18, 2007, 06:31:58 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;183238
How's it drive compared to the Montego/Sable? Does it have AWD too?
We have a Fusion here in town in a bright red metallic color with a tasteful body kit and BBS style wheels on it, it looks SHARP. Wish I knew more about it?
Milan = Fusion
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: CougarSE on October 18, 2007, 07:43:19 PM
The Milan is a more tasteful car. Less of the new edge Ford (and the ricey tail lights) and more Mercury. I'm still baffled that you can get one with a 5 speed.. we have a couple of the AWD ones.. But not 5 speed.
I'll tell you one thing about Mercury (and Ford in general) they have the best interior. We sell new Lincoln/Mercury, Chevy, Buick, Nissan, Dodge, Honda and Jeep. The Mercury feels very well put together and the styling is nice.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: cougarcragar on October 18, 2007, 08:40:08 PM
Quote from: CougarSE;183245
I'm still baffled that you can get one with a 5 speed...
This is what surprised me, too. I'm glad to see that there are people who still think the manual transmission has a place in this country. Of course, Americans are lazy. If there's an optional automatic transmission, by God, they'll get it; no shifting for them! Whenever I'm in the market for another car, I'm going to do my best to attain that elusive third pedal. I'm still thinking of a '87-'92 Mustang GT.
One of my larger clients is a local F/L/M dealership. They have an '08 Milan in white with a graphite leather interior. The car has the optional audio system and power moonroof, as well as the big aluminum wheels. The best part is that it is a 5-speed. It's so nice to see a domestic compact car with a manual transmission that isn't totally options-stripped. If I could stand the front grille on that car, I may actually consider picking one up in a couple of years.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: CougarSE on October 18, 2007, 08:45:37 PM
They would look nice if there was some kind of chin spoiler on them.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: Thunder Chicken on October 18, 2007, 10:40:00 PM
I usually get mad when people blame the Big 3 for the glut of too-large vehicles on the roads today - after all, they were just building what people want. When people don't want a vehicle it goes away (Aztec, X-90, etc).
However, I firmly believe that the domestic manufacturers are entirely to blame for the phasing out of standard transmissions. They did it for two reasons: Profit (it's cheaper to build 'em all the same way and better still, they can charge more for this standard "feature") and CAFE. The former EPA testing methods made it very easy to "stack the deck" - get higher numbers with an automatic tranny. At the Saturn dealership we always marveled that the automatic equipped cars ALWAYS had higher MPG ratings than identical 5-speed models. Real-world feedback from salesmen who had demos and actual customers suggested it was false.
So did common sense - an auto tranny is heavier, has fewer gear ratios, takes more energy to drive its larger, heavier internal parts, wastes a lot of energy through torque converter slippage, usually has a higher final gear ratio to help the car seem not as sucked-out as it really is, and yet it delivers better economy? Not hardly. Manufacturers simply calibrated the engines and transmissions to obtain optimum fuel economy at the speeds and loads used in EPA testing.
The newer test procedures seems to have undone that. My Saturn is now, with the new figures, rated at a higher MPG than an identical automatic version.
I'm going to guess that with the looming stricter CAFE standards you'll start seeing a comeback of the standard transmission. Automakers will do anything to bump their numbers, and offering shift-it-yourself trannies is one way to do so. Standard transmissions are still very popular in most countries where gasoline is expensive, and those countries are generally more cramped (meaning more stop-and-go driving) than most areas in North America...
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: oldraven on October 19, 2007, 07:26:10 AM
Speaking of CAFE, who read the news about a Presidential VETO threat being made in Congress over sping the two tier CAFE regs., putting cars and trucks together for 35mpg in 2020? Well, it turns out that bill, that had already been voted on and passed, is now out the window. The 35 rules now only apply to cars and car based SUV's, whilst trucks and truck based SUV's will get their own CAFE requirements.
This is incredibly good news for domestics, as it is possible to meet these regulations without ditching all the great upcoming models that would have been compromised to average out the cars and trucks. We will get our RWD Zeta's (Camaro/Impala/G8/Park Avenue [maybe]/GTO) and we will get our Challenger. Also, our market wouldn't have to rely almost entirely on compacts and sub-compacts, meaning we don't have to outsource ALL of our small car production (which would have to happen, since US/CAN/MEX assembly lines can't compete in that market) leaving us with no NA production. This saves a LOT of jobs in NA.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: V8Demon on October 19, 2007, 07:48:41 AM
You want a good article? Read this: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=5555
Quote
How did Chrysler fare? My PT Cruiser may very well be the worst car I've ever owned - what a piece of falling apart .
What a disater those things are to work on! Nothing is easy to get to!
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: Red_LX on October 19, 2007, 01:58:06 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;183303
You want a good article? Read this: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=5555
Wow, it's no longer fashionable to drive an American car? I guess I missed the memo.
Course what do I know, I'm driving one of Ford's 20-year-old red-headed stepchildren.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: Cougar5.0 on October 20, 2007, 06:27:32 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;183303
You want a good article? Read this: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=5555
What a disater those things are to work on! Nothing is easy to get to!
Tell me about it :mad:
I have no sway bar - why? bolt snapped off in the frame when I went to install new bushings.
I was trying to replace the bushings in the front control arms today (they wear out for most in 30k-100k miles.) I thought it would be relatively easy after starting the project. Remove ball-joint retainer bolt - check. Remove bolt through front horizontal bushing - check - tab on nut didn't even break off. Now just remove bolt in vertical bushing that goes into sealed frame. Huh? It's spinning without loostening? That's impossible! The frame is sealed and there is NO WAY to get a wrench onto the nut without drilling into the frame. I drilled the frame. The nut is round and protected by a metal ring - it cannot be loosened without lowering the entire x-member (front end). I loostened the bolts - nah - thing is rusted in place. I need my car so I have to drive it with a loose bushing bolt. :mad:
Other items guaranteed to need replacing within the first 50-100k miles:
- Watts linkage pivot - check.
- Tie rod ends - check. Died again in less than 2 years - check
- Front brakes & paper mache rotors every 50k - check
- Front control arm bushings - check. Bolts rusted solid so job is impossible - check
- Tires - wear out prematurely and belts ALWAYS warp thus pummeling front end and making driving straight almost impossible - check
- water pump seeps fluid onto engine making is smell awful - check
- battery covered 1/2" thick with corrosion (can't be seen due to airbox) - check
- car repeatedly died on side of road when sensor failed - codes gave no idea where to look. Somehow this error code issue was fixed when I brought it in for service along with an 8% increase in mileage which was horrible before - hmmmm :beatyoass:
- front wheel bearings fail and make the car sound like a tracked vehicle - check
Other than a suspension that wasn't designed for the oversized/overweight body stuck on a Neon chassis, the car is nice. :D
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: V8Demon on October 21, 2007, 12:50:45 AM
Quote
Other than a suspension that wasn't designed for the oversized/overweight body stuck on a Neon chassis, the car is nice.
Your wife MADE you buy it, didn't she?:D :flame:
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: Quietleaf on October 21, 2007, 01:46:15 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;183303
You want a good article? Read this: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=5555
What a disater those things are to work on! Nothing is easy to get to!
I just took a look at the article. Of course many of us have known people who consider American cars substandard and look down on those who build them, but I never would have thought that someone might actually have to explain himself to his friends after buying American. Considering that the article concerns a Cadillac vs. a Mercedes S-Class, I guess we're talking about wealthy elitist snobs. I'm not sure what's worse--having to explain oneself to such a class of people--or associating with them in the first place. The funny thing is that I could afford an S-class if I really wanted one, in fact I could purchase one outright. But it makes a lot more sense to me to put that into a six-month CD and save for my future than blow it on something like that. The irony is I often wind up having to explain the fact that I drive the T-Bird when I could afford a Mercedes, though it's usually to friends who could not. Perhaps it's that I had a different upbringing than the Mercedes-owner described in the article. My dad didn't grow up wealthy (and neither did I) and he taught me the value of money. Some niceties are okay, but money should be saved, not flaunted.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: V8Demon on October 21, 2007, 02:49:38 AM
Quote
I'm not sure what's worse--having to explain oneself to such a class of people--or associating with them in the first place.
Both......I run into this at work....
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: oldraven on October 21, 2007, 08:57:58 PM
Toyota just had to recall 470,000 cars in puppiesan. Yes, the puppiesanese market Toyota's are falling apart too. Growing pains. It really has been a bad week for them.
And not long ago Honda had to recall the latest Generation of Civics for Wheel Bearing failure.
I had a 20min talk with my father tonight about why domestics are a smart choice right now. He used to be a GM man, owning a 68 Firebird on through 86 Monte and a few new Chevettes. That last set did it. Through the 90's he trucked us around in S10's with no dash lights (or lights at all) or throw-out bearings. Or the Skylark ......... what can I say about that one? He always tried to stay with GM's, but they constantly scolded him for it.
Then he bought a Subaru, which he sold to me. It was cheap to buy, cheap to run, and never needed fixing (It needed a lot of fixing when I got it though). So he got a 4wd Corolla next and hasn't left Toyota's side since. They're on their third now, an '05, and they love the thing.
But tonight he's been looking seriously at the Malibu. A car that looks better than the Camry and is a good competitor for it, but priced, as he pointed out, just under a Corolla.
I know I'm rambling dirty bowtie talk, but it's the same story with Ford right now. They got their scolding and finally own up to the grief they dished out over the years, and now are really trying to win us back with products we actually want. There's hope, guys.
Title: Toyota Quality Down, Mercury Lives
Post by: V8Demon on October 22, 2007, 03:02:26 PM