Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Suspension/Steering => Topic started by: Thunder Chicken on October 14, 2007, 02:34:11 PM

Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Thunder Chicken on October 14, 2007, 02:34:11 PM
I jacked the 'Bird up and took all the wheels off, preparing for the paint job. While sanding the front bumper cover I happened to glance at the right coil spring - it looked funny, like it was in crooked. A closer look revealed that the spring is broken - not at the bottom like every other Fox I've seen with broken springs, but at the top. This was the TC spring I swapped in last winter. I chucked my stock V8 springs because they were both broken on bottom, so it looks as though I'm up for a set of springs...

I'll take pics later. Right now I want some distance between me and that car...
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: cougarcragar on October 14, 2007, 03:14:58 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;182433
Right now I want some distance between me and that car...


I know that feeling well. I'm getting tired of breaking something every time I drive the '86.
For example, this is what has developed in the past month:
What's tough is that I want to paint it in the spring, but with all of these mechanical problems, I don't know if I'll have the patience for it by then. I mean, is it really worth it to paint the car when its hood spends more time up than it does down?
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on October 14, 2007, 03:43:41 PM
Yeah, I just went with the almost identical Mach 1 springs on the front of mine after finding a broken one when upgrading control arms/brakes. I love 'em. Just beware that you will lower the front quite a bit (well, depending where you are now). My front fenders are sitting 26.2" on average above the pavement @ center. This is with the rears sitting @ 28.2" average above above the pavement, so I may be lower in the front due to the rake. This is with stock wheels & 225-60-15 tires. I am not sure what the stock height of the front should be - can someone post this?

I am going to put the Mach 1 springs on the back too. The back sits WAY too high due to the CHE adjustables and I am at the lowest adjustment point. When I put in the shorter Mach 1 springs, I will be able to adjust upward and get the height I want. I am not sure what the load rating of the Mach 1 springs is, but the 250 lb/in rate is higher than most other Mustang rears and higher than the 200 lb/in rate of the stock springs (I think that's the rate). Anyway, it's a chance I'm willing to take to get me some adjustability out of this setup.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: P71 on October 14, 2007, 03:55:38 PM
Carm,
I have a set of TC springs (2 actually) if you need em quick.

The stock 99-04 GT springs are 450# front/210# rear
01 Bullit springs are 600# front/250# rear and are 3/4" lower
03-04 Mach 1 springs are 600# front/250# rear and are 1/2" lower

The 99-04 GT springs sit lower then 87-88 TC/Sport/XR7 Springs, so keep that in mind.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: CougarSE on October 14, 2007, 04:01:29 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;182455
Carm,
I have a set of TC springs (2 actually) if you need em quick.

The stock 99-04 GT springs are 450# front/210# rear
01 Bullit springs are 600# front/250# rear and are 3/4" lower
03-04 Mach 1 springs are 600# front/250# rear and are 1/2" lower

The 99-04 GT springs sit lower then 87-88 TC/Sport/XR7 Springs, so keep that in mind.

What are the TC spring rates?
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: 1WLD BRD on October 14, 2007, 04:42:06 PM
how much lower will the '99-'04 GT springs lower our cars?
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Thunder Chicken on October 14, 2007, 05:20:22 PM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;182450
Yeah, I just went with the almost identical Mach 1 springs on the front of mine after finding a broken one when upgrading control arms/brakes. I love 'em. Just beware that you will lower the front quite a bit (well, depending where you are now). My front fenders are sitting 26.2" on average above the pavement @ center. This is with the rears sitting @ 28.2" average above above the pavement, so I may be lower in the front due to the rake. This is with stock wheels & 225-60-15 tires. I am not sure what the stock height of the front should be - can someone post this?

I am going to put the Mach 1 springs on the back too. The back sits WAY too high due to the CHE adjustables and I am at the lowest adjustment point. When I put in the shorter Mach 1 springs, I will be able to adjust upward and get the height I want. I am not sure what the load rating of the Mach 1 springs is, but the 250 lb/in rate is higher than most other Mustang rears and higher than the 200 lb/in rate of the stock springs (I think that's the rate). Anyway, it's a chance I'm willing to take to get me some adjustability out of this setup.

We are actually in the EXACT same boat then - when I installed the TC springs the front of the car came WAY down (as in about 2-3" between the front air dam and the pavement), and the CHE adjustables brought the butt WAY up. It looks like a 70's ghetto cruiser. I was gonna ditch the rear TC springs in favour of the Bullitt ones anyway, so now I'll just have to do all four.

Quote from: cougarcragar;182445
I know that feeling well. I'm getting tired of breaking something every time I drive the '86.
For example, this is what has developed in the past month:
  • Dead fuel injector
  • Another exhaust leak
  • Broken odometer (tapped hard on cluster to make it work again)
  • Broken motor mount
  • XR-7 center fell off of one of the c-pillar emblems
  • Broken IAC plug
  • Boost leak (even after installing proper compressor housing for intercooler)
What's tough is that I want to paint it in the spring, but with all of these mechanical problems, I don't know if I'll have the patience for it by then. I mean, is it really worth it to paint the car when its hood spends more time up than it does down?
At least you get to drive yours every now and then - it's coming up on a full year since mine's been road legal (safety sticker ran out in Oct 2006), and I put it in the garage very shortly after that sticker ran out.
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;182455
Carm,
I have a set of TC springs (2 actually) if you need em quick.

The stock 99-04 GT springs are 450# front/210# rear
01 Bullit springs are 600# front/250# rear and are 3/4" lower
03-04 Mach 1 springs are 600# front/250# rear and are 1/2" lower

The 99-04 GT springs sit lower then 87-88 TC/Sport/XR7 Springs, so keep that in mind.

I hadn't even considered Mach 1 springs. Hmmm...

Thanks for the offer on the TC springs, but I'm going with brand new this time. Used springs are what got me into this mess to begin with :mad: I'm in no hurry anyway - winter's just around the corner, so the car is gonna stay in the garage for another six months or so anyway...

The carnage:
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on October 14, 2007, 05:32:30 PM
I nabbed a set of used Mach 1 springs for $100 shipped. You'd never know they were used though - good deal for me I think. The Mach 1 front springs are 1/8th of a turn longer than the Bullitt, so they claim they lower the car slightly less (1/4") than the Bullits. Since the Mach's are not the "hot" item that the Bullitt setup is, they may be easier to come by.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: vinnietbird on October 14, 2007, 06:55:51 PM
I have thought of lowering the front of the Sport by an inch (or so).If I add new springs and end up an inch lower,will that require a new front end alignment?
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on October 14, 2007, 07:18:04 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;182490
I have thought of lowering the front of the Sport by an inch (or so).If I add new springs and end up an inch lower,will that require a new front end alignment?


Oh, yeah! When the tie rod angle is offset like that it causes the tires to pull in. I realigned mine in the garage :hick: Actually, I think I got it pretty close. The other issue angled tie-rods causes is bump-steer, though ~1" isn't too bad as far as I can tell so far with the Mach 1 springs. You can get a bump steer kit if needed.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Ether947 on October 14, 2007, 09:18:26 PM
Yay, more Bullitt/Mach 1 spring users... never thought I'd see the day. Yoos guys make me so proud. lol. :D

Spread the word, and convert the masses!!!
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Sduneman3 on October 14, 2007, 10:50:51 PM
Well Carm, hopefully I can get my car done in a couple of weeks.  I'm going to be putting some 25k 02' GT springs in my V6 cougar.  I'll post some up with the before & after pics.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: P71 on October 14, 2007, 10:56:39 PM
TC Springs are 400#/200# IIRC. "Base" springs sat ~1" higher then TC springs and were 275#/125#.

That's what my notes say, but it's all second-hand info, all the SN95 spring stuff I have I got straight from the Ford Motorsports order books.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: tc² on October 15, 2007, 11:00:29 AM
So am I way off or do SN95 springs fit Foxes with no modification?
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: tc² on October 15, 2007, 11:03:02 AM
SN95 Springs must be cut before installed on Foxes, correct?
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Sduneman3 on October 15, 2007, 11:04:45 AM
Only if you want it lowered more.  I think that SN95 springs will lower it about an 1" from our stock springs.  Not sure about TC's.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: P71 on October 15, 2007, 11:56:19 AM
Stock height SN95 springs are even shorter then TC springs. Cutting them would be a very bad move.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on October 15, 2007, 01:12:24 PM
My stock 20th springs were ~15" long, the Mach 1 & Bullitt springs are 13" long (albeit with a significantly higher spring rate).

Cutting them is a dangerous thing to do without first installing them. I am still hitting the fender on the highway where they have the missing pavement gaps due to repaving (I did not cut them). The fender opening is just over 26" from the pavement in the front - how much lower is that than stock?

Does anyone know if the "jounce" valving is stiffer on the Bullitt/Mach 1 struts? I just wonder if that would help keep the tire off of the fender?
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Kitz Kat on October 15, 2007, 02:03:08 PM
Before I changed my front springs,I was at 28 3/4" and less on the broken side,from the center of the fender to the ground.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on October 15, 2007, 02:12:59 PM
Quote from: kitzdnm;182624
Before I changed my front springs,I was at 28 3/4" and less on the broken side,from the center of the fender to the ground.


Yikes! Is this the norm or do you think the aluminum heads etc. lifted the front some? This would imply that changing to Bullitt/Mach 1 springs lowers the car over 2"!

I mean I like the look, but I am still tagging the fender at times.

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/DSCF1242.jpg)
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: CougarSE on October 15, 2007, 02:53:05 PM
My GT springs actually raised the front of my 88.  Its a V6 car though.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Chuck W on October 15, 2007, 03:38:07 PM
Gee...I must be sitting pretty low.

I think I'm 25.25" on the front of mine....

I know I don't have an 1" between the fender lip and the tire.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Cougar5.0 on October 15, 2007, 03:41:04 PM
Quote from: Chuck W;182636
Gee...I must be sitting pretty low.

I think I'm 25.25" on the front of mine....

I know I don't have an 1" between the fender lip and the tire.

Those are "C" springs correct?
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: P71 on October 15, 2007, 03:41:34 PM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;182621
Does anyone know if the "jounce" valving is stiffer on the Bullitt/Mach 1 struts? I just wonder if that would help keep the tire off of the fender?


The Bullitt and Mach 1 shocks are both valved much stiffer. They are set about the same to one-another but the real Bullitt shocks are about twice as much.

And yes, that means Mach 1 springs will drop a fox Bird/Cat 2 3/4" from stock. Bullitt springs would drop one 3" fully. GT springs should drop them 2 1/4". The TC springs should drop them 1 1/2".

I can stick a 6" ruler in the rear wheelwell of most non-TC's they sit so high.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Chuck W on October 15, 2007, 03:48:12 PM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;182637
Those are "C" springs correct?


Yes.  Front only.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Kitz Kat on October 15, 2007, 03:54:19 PM
That was before the alluminum heads.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Ether947 on October 15, 2007, 05:29:38 PM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;182627
Yikes! Is this the norm or do you think the aluminum heads etc. lifted the front some? This would imply that changing to Bullitt/Mach 1 springs lowers the car over 2"!

I mean I like the look, but I am still tagging the fender at times.



That's weird. My 85TC  had no rubbing issues (other than lock-to-lock turns) with my Bullitt Springs & Dampers all around (no front spring isolators) with 17x8 Cobras (235/45 & 245/45 Rubber) and +96 SN-95 Spindles...

What dampers are you running?

Now my 87TC with FRPP D-Springs was ruubbbbb city. It was lower with wider tires and less aggressive camber.
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/ether947/lastones003.jpg)
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Chuck W on October 15, 2007, 06:19:42 PM
Quote from: Ether947;182659
That's weird. My 85TC  had no rubbing issues (other than lock-to-lock turns) with my Bullitt Springs & Dampers all around (no front spring isolators) with 17x8 Cobras (235/45 & 245/45 Rubber) and +96 SN-95 Spindles...

What dampers are you running?

Now my 87TC with FRPP D-Springs was ruubbbbb city. It was lower with wider tires and less aggressive camber.


Actually it's not that weird.
The front rate on the "D" springs is only 425# while the Bullitts are 600#.  Another reason why I never liked the D, E or even the B front springs.  They don't increase the rate at all.  They are WAAAAYYY too soft.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Thunder Chicken on October 15, 2007, 06:53:50 PM
OK, so I went to the shop today and found out that they don't list any springs at all for 99-04 Mustangs - not GT, V6, Mach, Bulitt or Cobra (they carry Delco and Moog suspension parts). New Moog TC springs are $72/pair my cost (I get things at about half retail). Delcos are ~$60, but I'd prefer to stick with a brand name that's synonymous with suspensions.

Just because they don't list 'em for Mustangs doesn't mean they're unavailable, though. I've gotta do some investigating. Given the weight of this car and the 351 I've got planned for it I'd really prefer the higher spring rate of the Mach or Bullitt springs...

The TC springs brought the car down quite a bit, but they were 20-year-old used springs, one on the verge of breaking (apparently). The first pic below shows the stock V8 non-Sport springs, the second shows the TC springs. Both pics feature the car with 225/60R15 tires. The adjustable CHE's were not yet installed, which is why the butt doesn't look quite s ridiculous in the second pic:
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: P71 on October 15, 2007, 09:04:23 PM
Carm,
I can get you Motorsports/Mach 1 springs pretty darn cheap. Or at least some part #s. I have the 2 sets of TC springs laying around for side-by-side comparisons.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: shame302 on October 16, 2007, 07:32:40 PM
http://www.performancepartsinc.com/suspension.htm
 
scroll down about 17 parts. not a bad price.
 
so how do the rears feel in the birds. in the stang they are awesome unless you have people in the back. i dont think they are a progressive rate spring but when you have some weight over them they hit hard on big bumps like sepperations between new and old pavement, bridges etc.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: P71 on October 16, 2007, 08:32:35 PM
Those are great prices!
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Thunder Chicken on October 16, 2007, 09:09:58 PM
Those are VERY great prices! $209 for a set of four Mach 1 springs? I think I've found my springs, especially with the way the dollar has been going - I'll get 'em for $40 Canadian if I wait a month or two :hick:
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: DVP on October 19, 2007, 09:35:20 AM
Searched for front Mach 1 springs on Summit and this is waht i got. For 64 bucks i would just by new ones. an if we can get them in a pair insted of a set it would work out great since we can't use the rears. but.... its Summit's search so who know, i never have luck with it

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=BSN%2D199003&N=700+4294908331+4294908282+4294924641+4294925130+4294840044+4294839840+4294900059+4294868467+115&autoview=sku




an these are the the bullitt replacements... same price.... same part?
 
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=BSN%2D199003&N=700+4294908331+4294908282+4294925130+4294840044+4294839840+4294897989+4294868467+115&autoview=sku
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: DVP on October 19, 2007, 09:36:52 AM
I think they are the same part
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: P71 on October 19, 2007, 09:49:53 AM
Real Bullitt's are not the same as Mach 1's.

And we can use the rear springs, especially with the adjustable CHE arms.
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Thunder Chicken on October 19, 2007, 10:28:20 AM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;183323
Real Bullitt's are not the same as Mach 1's.

And we can use the rear springs, especially with the adjustable CHE arms.

...and I've got the adjustable CHE's, and I'm in desperate need of bringing the car's butt down.

What's the difference between Bullitt and Mach 1 rears? Which would better suit a T-Bird?
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: P71 on October 19, 2007, 11:12:50 AM
Real Bullitt springs are 3/4" shorter then 99-04 GT springs, Mach 1's are 1/2" shorter. Either will be much shorter (over 2") then a stock TC spring. They are both the same # rate. Either spring will work the same in a TBird with the adjustable CHE's. You will bring the rear down a little over 2.5" with the Mach 1 springs (it's kind of hard to guess seeing as how nobody I know has done it, this is all measured by the spring and what it drops on non-adjustable LCA's).

The difference is real Bullitt's are more expensive. 75% of "Bullitt" suspension stuff out there is Mach 1 stuff at a higher price. There's a big fuss going on right now about that. We of course don't care, buy the Mach 1 stuff for cheap! ;)
Title: I hate this car. Looks like it's gonna be Bullitt springs for me...
Post by: Red_LX on October 19, 2007, 01:39:24 PM
Quote from: Chuck W;182636
Gee...I must be sitting pretty low.

I think I'm 25.25" on the front of mine....

I know I don't have an 1" between the fender lip and the tire.


Hm, I'm close to that. I have about 25 1/2" up front and around 26 or a little less in back. The driver's side also sits a little lower than the passenger side :(

Used BBK 5.0 Mustang lowering springs up front, SN95 rears with overload airbags.

My car is riding that fine line between "just right" and "too low." I love the stance, but I have to be careful with it because the exhaust tends to drag on some stuff.

BTW I dropped the front, never even had the car realigned and the front tires are not wearing funny at all (well, except where I scrubbed most of the tread off the very outside edge from taking offramps at 55 mph :D )

I think I'm gonna be tearing into the front suspension soon though...sounds like the ball joints are on their way out, and I'd like to go through it anyway.