http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7038992.stm
It was also sent to the Archbishop of Canterbury, the heads of the Lutheran, Methodist and Baptist churches, the Orthodox Church's Patriarch of Constantinople Bartholomew I and other Orthodox Patriarchs.
The letter, entitled A Common Word Between Us and You, compares passages in the Koran and the Bible, concluding that both emphasise "the primacy of total love and devotion to God", and the love of the neighbour.
With Muslims and Christians making up more than half the world's population, the letter goes on, the relationship between the two religious communities is "the most important factor in contributing to meaningful peace around the world".
"As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is not against them - so long as they do not wage war against Muslims on account of their religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes," the letter says...... (more at link above)
Read the entire document here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_10_07_letter.pdf
So, what do you guys think? Is it about time, or what?
That's all fine and well, but the muslims who wrote/signed that letter are not the ones waging war against the "great western devil".
Fanatics are fanatics no matter what higher power they follow...and they are always the ones who are the problem.
Both sides need to look internally and deal with the segments of their faithful that are the antagonists.
If Muslims do not want to kill us then they aren't practicing their faith properly.
It's the same thing as literal christians who pick and choose passages from the bible to suit their needs at the time.
It's all propaganda, on both sides.
Muslims don't want to kill us. Did you not just read that this letter was endorsed by numerous leaders of the Islamic faith? And you can swap the word 'Muslims' with 'Christians' in your post and it would be more accurate. This is in response to the Pope speaking out
against the Islamic people, while the letter itself is asking for peace and understanding. It seems some people are so wrapped up in their ignorance and false ideals that they can't see the facts laid out right in front of their ****ing eyes. Benedict quoted a text written just this side of the dark ages pointing Islam out as a violent faith. And what was his purpose in doing so? To justify, is my guess.
Chuck, I completely understand what you're saying, and you're right. The 'problem children' aren't asking for understanding here, the truly faithful and honest are trying to portray themselves the way their Faith asks them to. There is a difference that can be made by this document, though. When it is made public, the Muslim people can see their own religious leaders, those they ask for guidance, denounce the hate and violence being acted out in the misguided name of Islam. It may not change the bullheaded self justifying fools out there, but it will make it a hell of a lot more difficult to sway the mild mannered and level headed Muslim to hatred.
This is like hearing the IRA has put down their guns.................. again.............. It's good news, but not likely to last. Still, we can hope, right?
:cheers:
A saying I have heard that says just what Chuck says here is
"Text, without context, is pretext!" Look up the words if you don’t understand it.
Even those literal Christians don't promote the death and killing of anyone not like them, so it's not really the same at all.
And it's great that those Muslims promote peace, it's just against their doctrine of Jihad and death to the infidels/all those not of the Muslim faith, especially the Jews.
It's the same in that they hold literal to the words written in a book.
They don't think for themselves and blindly follow "the word".
That is how it is the same.
Have you ever actually READ the bible? Have you ever heard of the Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? Manefest Destiny?
This reads as ignorant & xenophobic.
Those are the single two most ignorant posts ive seen on here in a while.
Does anybody learn about the crusades anymore? The templars sure as hell didnt run around hugging muslims back then. Regardless of anybodys OPINION, look at the facts. RELIGION in general has been used to incite the masses into wars and hardship since the dawn of time. ON ALL SIDES. iIs hypocritical in the extreem to sit and think that all muslims want to exterminate or convert every man, woman and child in the world.....and then imply that somehow christians are better than them. Guess what? in the past, Christians have done the same. Who are you to judge an entire religion based on an ignorant narrow-minded point of veiw?
Do you're research, and be open minded. Look at facts, not fanatics. i think that mabey your mind will change.
Thank you for the words of wisdom here - I was speechless after reading that post.
DING!
Narrow-minded literal interpretation of ANY BELIEF is inherently a bad idea.
Religion isn't the problem. Religious people aren't even the problem. It's the religious zealots, the extremists, that are the problem, and that is true regardless of the faith.
Now please, people, let's not get personal here. Religion is a controversial subject at the best of times, and we don't need people having hard feelings against each other because they disagree about religion. If the personal insults continue the thread is gonna be locked down.
The Power Of Nightmares 1 (http://"http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=881321004838285177")
The Power Of Nightmares 2 (http://"http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4602171665328041876")
The Power Of Nightmares 3 (http://"http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2081592330319789254")
I found these interesting
Good films (only watched first so far). Leo Strauss was an amazingly devious person who studied how to control the masses through manipulation based on fear. The Neocons got their perfect opportunity to pedal fear after 9/11. I can see why some of the conspiracy nuts think they had to have had a hand in it due to the need for an "evil" enemy and a "consuming fear" to start concentrating power in the Presidency. They also had the perfect dupe in Bush who is an utter incompetent looking for others (i.e. Cheney & the neocons) to push the buttons for him. It's amazing that we have survived as a nation with these deviants trying to exercise complete and indefinite control over the population and who would love nothing more than to take away the freedoms that we enjoy.
I didn't realize that Straussian philosophy had also made inroads into Middle-Eastern culture as well (never thought about it). Strauss was an evil, evil man.
That wasnt meant as a personal insult, just food for thought. And any narrow minded comment especially about religion is ignorant in my mind. I'm ignorant about many things myself. Like rocket science and making a 3.8L fast :hick: I just want to encourage people to get the facts and make an INFORMED decision about things before they sound like ..... well..... idiots. And TC you are very correct. Zelots and Extreemists are (in my mind) not the entire problem. The problem is the one or two very very sick people that would use something as beautiful as religion and absolute faith to commit atrocitys. Islam is a very wonderful faith. its the few who have given it a bad rap.
These are the leaders of Islam. Like the Pope is the head and ultimate final word on earth for Christians. If they denounce Jihad, then it is no longer Muslim doctrine.
So, who actually read the pdf, and who's just regurgitating what they've heard and read on other boards and in kitchens because they heard the word 'Islam'?
*edit*
More on the term 'Jihad' from an actual Muslim on another board I frequent. Looks like we were both ignorant on that term.
"our holy book the koran says that to kill one person unjustly is equal to killing all of humanity
one issue i see alot of on tv is that people think the word "jihad" means holy war and thats 100% false "jihad" means to struggle in the path of God and in islam there are millions of ways to struggle other then through war. the prophet has said the greatest "jihad" is that to fight your own desires. he has also said that gaining knowledge is also a greater "jihad" then actual war."
So there you have it. The Koran itself says that to gain knowledge (shedding ignorance) is more noble a jihad than to go to war. Christianity once had a guy who thought just like that.
Thank You
Although I agree with the rest of your post the bold part is a little misleading. Jerusalem was captured by both the Muslims and Christians over the centuries. In fact, the first Crusade was called to take BACK the city from the Muslims who first took it over.
But in the Middle Ages both Christians and Muslims were pure EVIL. Hell they were even evil the far east, think about Genghis Khan.
So it's easy to see why these times were also called the Dark Ages..
Oh I agree. However, there was peace between the christians and the muslims until the templars incited the last change of hands. Or second to last..... i cant remember. Saladin was pushed into the bloodshed because many many innocent muslims were being slaughtered by the templars.
Dont get me wrong though, there were atrocitys commited on both sides of that coin. Its just pointing out that BOTH sides were at fault, not just the muslims. And since the orgional comment was basicly biased twards muslims, thats the example I put forth to illustrate that the chrisitans were not exactly free of guilt.
xjeffs
you can see you are the minority like myself,, and comes as no surprise the wonderful bliss most people live in and its not thier fault.,, honestly. They just do not have any meaning to base thier views on other then a local guy or someone they know or just documents. The letter sent out to the various religious leaders is only half the story of what the real story is behind the plan. Going into further details would not be suitable here but i assure you that this is only another tactic of soft terrorism with motives that are intended to gain trust.
Reality is you are correct and from a qualified perspective, your just shooting straight from the hip.
same goes for christian and the violent history alike. In many ways we are all alike.
Yes. Asking for peace is a very sneaky way to make your next terrorist move.
I'm sorry Cassidy, but you're a soldier. You get more pro-America/Anti-Islam propaganda shoved down your throat than any other person on this board, so I can understand why you see an olive branch as just another way to get us off our guard. This is why there is no peace in this world. I'm a cynic too, but once in a while you've got to take a step back and see what's being said.
But don't hold back. Don't be the only guy who won't speak his mind in this thread. If you've got some other document, that other half that you say we're missing, I'd love to read it. Otherwise you're speculating, and that's what got everyone in this mess to begin with. This time around anyway.
Well, so did Lt. General Ricardo Sanchez who's only the latest in a series of Generals who have ripped the administration on their propaganda:
Ahh, he has noticed the obvious and stated it simply.
Or we could alternatively believe the propaganda that all Muslims are evil and everything they do is designed to bring down "the great satan". :rolleyes: Please learn about Strauss, the neocons and the need for a fear-inducing enemy to take the place of the Soviet Union now that they are defunct (and most all we were told about their capabilites and motivations was utter lies).
C'mon people, THINK!
You say that so "matter of a fact" like that it only stands to reason why you are slightly misinformed. I have no idea how you concluded that above quote but i suppose thats on some pdf also,,,,naw,, just joking so dont take it serious. No im not a soldier as you have made it clear i am.
I just need to say that i believe everyone of you and your views are valid compeltely, i just do not have my min 50% confidence required to give the entire religion a chance. 50/50 is my breaking point to give away many chances. In this case, and per the people of the land, they will die for thier religion. Who here will die for jesus? on faith alone? imagine that as it aproaches your doorstep in any form dished out and you will see the soft nature we handle this is in itself very voitile. We have to be on guard for many more generations until atleast the religion has announced thier "literal teachings" do no condone the death of those not worthy. Maybe i will change my mind once these people come to grasp with thier impact but to date, we have a very strong enemy whom i have much respect for in the fact that they are not one to be taken lightly. Simmer on that for a while,,,,, yes i do respect them for their skills and thier know how to adapt and overcome anything in thier way. Do not ever forget to imagine the impossible, including a day when all this might blow over.
for me, its not over nor will it be in my lifetime.
on a side note, thank you for reducing me to less than zero without a brain of my own. Its typical of your people to spay and nuder in that way to gain support and thats not me speaking but your very own nation. I just happen to know this dealing with the company i work for being based out of your country, they (and i have to say 90%) are saying negative things leading me to believe they would actually call my fellow sodiers murderers such as a recent media influence being bounced around lately. Im insulted sometimes and i do find myself in the minority which is even the more agitating. For such a neutral country, theres a lot of opinions floating around there.
somehow i wish i had not replied but i did and its no big, i still enjoy you all anyway. I just dont like friction but this topic kind of bugs me when theres so many poeple out there who dont understand the true teachings of this religion which are in fact held Literal in its true form, any other form would be improper or modified which is looked down upon. Those serviing this religion now In the US or Canada are doing it here for a reason, they would be killed back home.,,point blank. They are attempting to modify the religion to make it more acceptable,, make it so i say but still show me the time tested proof.
Ya know, there are some people in northern Ireland who would be more than happy to provide evidence pointing to the violent tendencies of Christians... and IIRC it was Christians fighting Christians...
Very True.
Oldraven:
I'm a soldier. Ive had american propaganda shoved down my throat. But that doesnt mean that i cant be open minded and understanding. I see your arguement, as well as others. If I were on their (Extreemists) side of the war at this point, I would do it (Extend the olive brance to make the world let down their guard) But in my mind, thats a desparation tactic. If thats the case, THEY now beleive they are loosing the battle and have had to resort to even more underhanded and riskey tactics to try and win.
So as a response to the origonal question (Wich we have gotten away from here) I think its a good thing. Either way. If they are honestly trying to extend the olive brance, Great. If not, its desparation setting in, and we are winning. I'll take either one.
The truth according to Wikipedia . . .
"Strauss taught that liberalism in its modern form contained within it an intrinsic tendency towards relativism, which in turn led to two types of nihilism. The first was a “brutal” nihilism, expressed in puppies and Marxist regimes. These ideologies, both descendants of Enlightenment thought, tried to destroy all traditions, history, ethics, and moral standards and replace them by force with a supreme authority under which nature and mankind are subjugated and conquered. The second type – the "gentle" nihilism expressed in Western liberal democracies – was a kind of value-free aimlessness and a hedonistic "permissive egalitarianism", which he saw as permeating the fabric of contemporary American society. In the belief that 20th century relativism, scientism, historicism, and nihilism were all implicated in the deterioration of modern society and philosophy, Strauss sought to uncover the philosophical pathways that had led to this situation. The resultant study led him to advocate a tentative return to classical political philosophy as a starting point for understanding our predicament and judging political action."
Just like most Dhimmicrats today . . . The progressives/marxists/socialists in the Dimmi party sound no different than Stalin, Mao or Musollini . . . go read some old speaches. Class warfare and designed lies being their main staple.
The list of terrorist atrocities of the last 30 years is enormous . . . . Izlam has terrorized the world since the 7th century . . . and you buy into the loonies of the left, Pelosi, Reid, Murta and so on . . . . the lies of the left are treasonous.
Bush stupid . . . but planned the destruction of the trade centre . . . and no one has any proof!!! Imagine a dummy doing that!!!
Of course the bombings in London, Bali, Spain, and other attempts that have been foiled, are just pranks of spoiled children that didn't get their welfare cheques on time.
You sound just as silly as the loonies in Hollyweird, Sheen, Moore, Penn and the rest of the "Actors" . . . .
RW wack job philosophy - take one quote out-of-context, then unwittingly promote a fascist-type of philosopher whom Hitler used as a model for his control of the masses.
Watch the shows posted above to see the result of Straussian philosophy. You won't do it because you may learn how bass-ackwards your thinking is.
But keep on with the RW nut-job posts - it appears to be your style! :hick:
.......... politics. The never-ending dead end.
Cassidy, thanks for the post, man. I agree with most of it, and didn't mean to make you out to be brainwashed. We are far from Neutral, as our troops continue to come home in boxes regularly. I'm glad we're standing up to terrorism, even though it's a lost cause, but I can't bring myself to support a war on Islam. It goes against the core of what I believe in.
The guy was Jewish . . . . Hitler would have had him eliminated!!
Of course if you talked about the connection between Eugenics, Darwin and the Ultra-left in the early 20th century . . . they had a huge effect on the politics of the german fascists.
Uncle Adolph was a puppies? . . . he was a devout socialist. He led the german workers' party called "the national socialist workers party" hence the acronim puppies. Which puts him among the Ultra-Left . . . along with many Dimmocrats today!!!
Do you know anything about the roots of Fascism and Socialism? It all started with Marks and Engles . . . . they were the minds behind the regemes of Stalin and of course Mussolini who was the world's first Fascist. Hitler imitated Mussolini . . . they were both devout Socialists.
Go read a history book written before the 70's, before left-leaning professors re-wrote 20th century history to distance their lefty friends from these murderous regemes.
Question: Name one democratically elected Conservative government that became a fascist regeme.
Good factual read for you . . .
http://jonjayray.batcave.net/musso.html
see ya.
http://www.Jonjayray.batcave.net/musso.html
read it. If you find anything that is wrong don't hesistat to drop me a note, or even better drop the author a note im sure he would be happy to educate you. Hard to have a discussion when you don't know what your talking about isn't it?
Take it to p.m. guys. You're killing the thread.
Watch the personal attacks....
I'll lock this sucker down....
Let me make it back to H'ville before you lock it up...
Don't worry, the "issue" has been solved indefinitely...
Religious threads, FTL.
Bingo!!
nor do i support it either, but i do support the troops stuck in the middle. Yeppers,, it is a lost cause. I think the above quote would be a very polite and soothing close to the topic. It is nice to hear different views though and somehow i find it facinating how much alilke they all become towards the end.
The reason I didn't respond on topic is that Chuck said it well right of the bat. These Muslim leaders are no more listened to by the fanatics than Tim McVeigh types or the Klu Klux Klan think of someone like Rev. Haggard as anything more than "some British cigarettegot preacher" .
Many sites would consider a thread such as this as "flame bait" for precisely the reasons that have reared their ugly head in this post. I am sorry that I got sucked into it, but I have no tolerance for the xenophobic propaganda repeaters. I would neither start a post like this, nor would I have commented if the hateful & hypocritical filth hadn't seeped it's way into this thread.
My thinking on our (US/Can) involvement in this issue is similar to where jcassity and oldraven are arriving at above. Heck, I have relatives in the ME who just want to mind their own business and live their lives, yet Israel was dropping bombs on them last year (Christian Armenians) in Lebanon. My (ex)wife and kids are Jewish but I'd be a idiot if I blamed her family just because they support Israel. 99% of the 10's of thousands of people who have died in Iraq were civilians just trying to live their lives like you and I. I feel for the soldiers stuck in the middle and I feel for the civilians who just want to go on with their lives without fear of being shot or bombed. "Bring it on" my ass - stupidest statement by a sitting President in the entire history of this country.
This man is weeping because a US bomb blew up and killed his wife & children (in Iraq)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/Domeskull/Manweeps.jpg)
If you can look into this mans eyes and imagine what it feels like to have your family taken away so tragically and not shed a tear, then you are a stoic soul indeed.
Just fyi, Muslim schools in northern va have been set up and made exempt from inspections and examination of teachings because they *********originally******** claimed discrimination and other belly aching whinney bla bla bla that stemed from post 9/11 "profiling".
Now, within the past few hours and few days, an interesing 9th grade text book has been examined (obtained illegally im sure) which includes the promotion of "death to jews". Yep, right here in the US which are a part of said muslem schools and claim they dont in any way shape or fashion promote that sort of stuff.
First you see a problem
next you speak your mind
someone files a lawsuit and others follow
then "most" become afraid to speak their mind due to law suits or any other conflict senerio presented
you see the strong are losing ground in thier numbers as by default cowards generally outnumber the strong.
suddenly those who were afraid convert to being open as a safety net and being apart of the new majority
Within time, being open , opens many doors for the right people who see opportunity
then you end up with your own doors you gave based on fear
being slammed in your face.
SO,,,,,,,,,,,,,where do we go from here.
continue to have fear
interpert the fear in yourself and become fearful that you will be percieved as weak
so you decide to become more "open" to change
next you allow closed doors on the closed community sector of land that has been taken
accept the fact you allowed them to actually set up an mini middle eastern country inside your community
aknowledge the fact they are speacial and exempt from laws you have to follow
now, the hard part
speak on thier behalf that "its only a text book" and its not literal but only a ref guide.
end result
you get walked on and you hate yourself for being a countryman.,, for not being able to go with your gut feeling.
thats my one point i always fear. Trust and give but watch out cause once your seen as weak then you will be taken for all your net worth and humility and be forced to conform to another agenda that is nothing you could have ever imagined.
I smell a locker and im not talking about a rear axel
It's still pretty civilized in here, so I'm not too worried about it. It is being watched, though.
It always amazes me that those who would justify their xenophobic fear and resentment of others not like them will always find selected examples to justify their fear and resentment. Living life this way appears to be a hobby for many. I suppose the next thing to do would be to show an example of Fundies teaching bigotry and hatred as we all have seen the tapes, but that would be pointless. I simply mention it to display the utter hypocrisy of some.
good point cougar5.0, there are times in our lives when we look at ourselves a little closer, call it one of those times for me.
What gets me about all this is the fact that the muslims who preach peace get no media coverage, neither do the troops who give part of their MRE's to starving iraqi childre. Instead all we hear about are suicide bombers and those idiots at blackwater. Apparently bad news gets more ratings, so good news gets thrown in the trash can.
And i just want to remind people that the differences between peace loving muslims and fundamentalist muslims is vast. My brother is a muslim AND a marine that served in iraq. And he served our country well fighting to remove the terrorist element fromthe faith, if only from the mainstream view of it. The major difference between fundamentalist muslim terrorists and christian fundamentalist wack jobs is the fact that the terrorist muslim fundamentalists ARE the mainstream. They have converted so many into thinking that we are the devil through acts such as the recreation of israel that those who can see through the propoganda are the minority.
If christian fundamentalists like Pat Roberts calling for saddam's assination when he was still in power became the majority then christianity would be right back in the dark ages of the spanish inquisition. And not all the fundamentalist christians preach violence. Take Warren Jeffs for example. Most mormons don't like to hear or accept it but his teachings are part of the mormon faith, although they are a severely warped version of them, much like terrorist muslims. His particular sect (palygamist) is called The FLDS (Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints) whereas the rest of us are just LDS or the RLDS (Reformed Latter Day Saints which are usually only found in the midwest). Bottom line, fundamentalists are not a good idea in ANY religion. Weather they be muslim, christian, jewiss or anybody else i forgot to mention.
A word that has been all over this thread is 'fear'. The most effective weapon for that would be media.
yeah except that the media is the biggest purveyor of fear because it gets the most ratings.
Just for the record I am not a xenophobe. I have no fear of Lucy Lawless.
I'm really fighting the urge to respond to all the flying around. In the end, alot of it was the same nutbag game of sticks and stones instead of debate with substance. Amazing how people will take any opportunity to get emotional against Christianity, when it doesn't threaten their existence, only their conscience. The content was about Muslims and that was hardly debated.
I really would be just repeating what jcassity has said so well. Great posts.
Actually i was just saying that both sides have their nutjobs and it's never the nutjob factions that make everybody else look bad.