(update 17jan08,see post 53, page 5 for a surprise twist to what solved this problem. If your interested in changing your control arm bushings, keep reading)
Verdict is in on my new 20th.
squeek-Symptom.....
While my son pushed up and down, i felt for the squeek and isolated it to dead center of the ball joint driver side.
Solution,
buy both new and replace.
Poping noise
Symptom....
While applying brake presure and car dips up front, poping noise heard. While going up hill on a gravel driveway Rattle noise heard like the noise a golf ball in a wood box would produce if you shake it.
Put car in "D" , let off brake and reapply brake - POP
Put car in "R" , let off brake and reapply brake - POP
Solution,
Have an experienced eye listen while doing the above two steps. Mr experienced eye will notice the lower control arm shifting forward and aft as "D" and "R" are selected.
buy new control arm bushings and replace,,,,, OH GOODY:mad:
See my "WTB" thread
told ya!
your the reason why i looked,, thanks:D
my car just started to squeak pretty badly on the passenger front wheel but it doesnt pop like you described.
should i plan for new balljoints or see if its something else? i usually fix stuff after they break but this isnt one of those kinda parts i want to wait for and i never had something that needed them before
sorry to jack thread but i figured i would ask since your on the subject
just troubleshoot it, like described. you will feel the vibration of the squeek with your fingers increase as you get closer and closer to the sound. Gotta have a helper push up and down on the car (preferably on the front corners).
change em like my pics are in the lounge '"ball joints" thread.
ok
im having technical problems with my A frame bushings / Control arm bushings.
Napa calls two different ones for each arm
pn 2673351 and 2673512
I just got back from town and advance says "the computer" says there is only ONE bushing part number and also that the computer calls for an upper control arm as well.
To make matters worse, they went to the TRW book and concluded my car was too old as thier TRW book only goes back to 92.
I leave,, now kind of wondering to myself,, did napa really know what they were talking about?,, they sure did come closer than advance though. I went back to advance and told them ,,"look, this car is just like a tbird, look up the bushing for a tbird / 87 and lets see whatcha got". No go. I then said,, "you know much about mustangs,, and he said "yep". I said this car is just like a stang setup from those years so lets see whatcha got.
suddenly there were part numbers. TWO DIFFERERENT ONES like i expected.
Under the Chassis catagory on front suspenion we found.........
Each A arm calls out..........
12356-front lower A arm bushing
12408-rear lower A arm bushing
Are the stang bushings the same???????????????
I dont want to tear down the front end and not have the correct parts in hand.
Those are the correct part numbers
'87-'88 T-bird LCA bushings are
not interchangeable with any Mustang bushing.
'83'-86 T-bird LCA bushings
are.
If I were you, I'd just buy a set (or two) of Moog bushings from Rockauto.
A set from NAPA is $47.38.
A set from Rockauto is $24.99.
You are not giving up anything by choosing Moog over NAPA. Moog is a high quality brand.
are they rubber? i dont want poly.
BTW,, would you believe there isnt one single post on this whole forum about replacement of stock rubber bushings? Only my threads show up with many different search words used.
I thought for sure with all the suspension guru's here, someone would have put in some rubber ones. I guess not. I still have to make my spring compressor tool out of 5/8 grade 8 threaded rod and some hooky looking brackets.
Yes, they're rubber.
I'd like to see a write-up on your installation. I'll probably be doing the same to my Cougar in the not-to-distant future.
Ill prob take pics to. Its likely ill run into the same problem others have with the "shell". We'll see.
Project planned in hopefully a week. Ill be in canada all next week so if not, then the following week.
Jacassity: Question for you. This popping noise you hear. Can you "feel" it on the floor through your feet when sitting in the car?
it happens just as i described,, to get a final opinion its a two person job to "see" the A arm move.
Im in the process of putting my door panel back on but im going to start my spring compressor tool tonight as well.
Well, you're going to see some movement in the A arm due to the rubber bushings. That's by design. It certainly will not hurt to replace them as it will improve the driveability.
your suggesting or leading to something,, correct? im trying to read between the lines here. Whatcha got ???
Well, I had that same noise as you describe but I could feel it through my feet in the floor board. Depending how bad your bushings are, replacing them may do the trick. One thing you may want to check is the six bolts that hold the K member in. I had one that wasn't completely tight and that was the source of the problem. I needed an air rachet to do the job. This is something you can check first before changing the A arm bushings. Again, this is just a thought. Let us know what you find.
Well, now............................
Ill have an answer this evening. Thats interesting cause ive never known that to be a problem. Thanks , ill check that as well.
First step is to inspect what i think is the problem. With a pry bar i was able to shift the control arm forward and then aft.
first pic is of the rear bushing, Looks to be in tact.
Second pic is of the front bushing which seems to be rather lacking.
so...............
i decide that i need to compress that stinking spring. With all my misc parts i have laying around, im sure to come up with something that will work and is safe.
In the first pic just above my tool there is a round hole you can barely see in between the big ass bolts mounted upsdie down. Ford calls for a tool that passes through that hole and down through the spring and hooks into a coil. For the life of me, i cant figure out how that design would be safe and stable and also not pen 15 eye the spring when its compressed.
first pic is of the spring compressor i made installed. Seems to work fine although i found out that everything needs to be 1'' longer. Sux to be me but oh well,, just cut another threaded rod and be done with the tool.
second pic is of the tool layed out as it appears installed.
found what the noise was.
the passenger side strut moved from the rivet in the tab on top of the strut tower failing. not sure how though im sure theres more wrong there than i noticed but i moved it back and the noise went away so when i get the time ill go over it more properly:D
Got out to remove my CA arms this evening. TOO EASY!!! except for one minor thing. The rack and pinion bolt head is "pan head" so to speak and is impossible to get out unless you remove the inner tie rod end and to some experts, the rack as well. Well, i said "f" that.
[COLOR="Red"]First pic-[/COLOR] My spring tool that keeps you safe and sound with no worries about the spring poping out at ya. Its construction is on a prior page layed out on the floor so you can see how its made. One important factor,,, You have to weld a washer on the pipe and grind it so its flush with the short section of pipe. This is nessasary and hard to explain but if yo dont do it,, you'll soon understand why.
[COLOR="red"]second pic-[/COLOR] The second pic illustrates how the head of the bolt bumps into the rack and pinion housing. Once i got the nut off, i was able to tap the bolt out a little and lob off part of the pan head portion of the bolt. Getting the bolt in the right rotational position allows for it to clear the rack with some difficulty but it does come out if your rack bolt is removed. Done deal,, CA is out now and on the bench.
[COLOR="red"]Third pic[/COLOR] CA arm on the bench and a cold beer to collect my thoughts on "what do i have to get this beyoch out.
[COLOR="red"]Fourth Pic[/COLOR] Here is a cool idea i came up with. Using some more s 5/8'' threaded rod, a couple of nuts and as many washers you can find on the left and right side of each nut,, you can press out the guts of the bushings.
Downside,,,,,,,,,,I did not like how doing this tweeked my CA arm so i dont suggest it. It was one of those good bad ideas. Torch time i guess. Followed by a saw to penetrat the outter bushing housing and then peal them out. Sounds exactly like ive been told previously.
All in all, with that tool i made (which highly resembles the shop manual tool but much more safe), the CA arm was out inside of 45 minutes to my surprise. My brother in law says that tool would make for a great adjustable up or down lift kit. I supose it could be a permanant addition to a car or truck the way it works. Oh well, thats for you all to decide.
4th pic mentioned above
Maybe someone else can figure out a way of getting out the bushing besides a torch.
While you're at it don't forget to replace the sway bar end links ;)
Yeah, this job sucks. Aside from a press, maybe, you may need to resort to a little tank MAPP gas (homedepot, etc.. if you don't have one). The outside layer of the rubber becomes liquid and the bushing slides out. Then a saws-all to cut a slit in the inside of the metal sleeve (if you're replacing the metal part - I feel it's easier to buy and install a complete rubber/metal bushing unit it than trying to squish the rubber into the sleeve). From here, a ball joint press will press the new bushings/sleeves in but make sure you go PERFECTLY straight in or you'll start to hear cracking. Also, some deep sockets wedged on the inside of the a-arm will help to avoid collapse.
Scott, would you measure the ID of the FLCA bushing housing?
I'm thinking about putting some spherical bearings in a set of FLCAs.
Your new bushings have sleeves, so no need to save anything.
You have a saw-zall or band saw? Chop through the bushings, sleeves and all right where they go through the arm. That should make them easier to get out.
make sure you support the arm when you push the new bushings in.
OH FREAKIN GREAT. I get the SAME thing practically. Its more sporadic but the SAME sound, I FEEL it through the floorboard. A local shop put a pry bar on every piece of the suspension and he said all was tight as could be......but Im wondering. Well I've read about THIS operation....yeah not happenin right here I'm gonna have to live with it for awhile.
chuck ahhh,, good idea. also i was thinking about drilling a large hole in the rubber all the way through. Then use my saw zall to cut out the inner rubber thingy. Then, ill do what you said. Lobe the one outter shell in half. That will make life easier for sure then theres really no need for a torch.
jeremyb,, Ill measure them tomorrow,,ok?
The passanger side is just a wee bit different but no big deal.
In order to gain real estate on the top where my big as plate sits, you have to undo the fuel and brake line clips along the top.
see pic below.
Also,, if anyone copies this tool, make sure you understand that the lower big plate needs to pass through the lowest available opening in the spring. The lower the better. Also,, your lower metal plate should point as shown in the pic or else you end up pen 15eye'd.
Also for safey,, Always keep the balljoint nut on until you know for a fact presure is off the CA. IN this pic below, the CA is ready for removeal.
Cant wait for tomorrow ,, to try and drill out the rubber, use the saw zall to gut that F'er.
Funny I've always managed to do this without a spring compressor. Of course when I put the new springs in my 88 Cougar they were 3 inches shorter.
ok,, ill bite. HOW?
How could you change control arm bushings without having to deal with the spring in some manner?
Getting the springs out w/o a compressor is no big deal. I have NEVER used one when removing stock springs. I just drop the arm and pop the spring off the seat with a pry bar and done. Getting stock length springs back in is a PITA w/o one, but I never have reinstalled stock springs...
well the topic is CA bushings ,, not about springs. Besides,, i never said i took any spring out so CougarSe must be talking about getting the CA bushing out without a compressor. Thats what he said if you read his post. The spring stays in the car, not sure how many times I have to say that.
He only used the word "THIS" ,,, so this happens to be about CA bushings.
oh well,, no biggie. I just read what people type.
See pic below for people who still dont understand what i mean. Not sure how anyone could remove the CA and not have to control the spring.
This pic is pretty cool by the way. Notice anything strange? the magical floating sway bar bushing / rod/ thing a ma jig.
I believe what he meant was that you do not need a spring compressor to remove the spring in order to access and remove the control arms. With the car supported on jackstands and a floor jack placed under the control arm(so the spring doesn't fly off), remove your strut, brakes, tie rod end, sway bar end link, and ball joint nut. Once the ball joint is free from the spindle, you can safely lower the control arm to relieve spring pressure and remove the spring. I'm sure alot of people already knew this procedure, just thought I'd point it out.
Did you have to do anything special to get the Control arm bolts out? Or are you one of the lucky ones....
yes,, I menitoned that earler and take a look at the pic above your post. You will see the CA bolt sticking out. I got in there and cut off some of the Pan Head portion of the head. Rotate the bolt just right and they come out.
Well,, here are some more pics.
first - using a drill you can just ream out the rubber portion
second- the bushing just comes out after you drill it
third-saw zall the center ring out
fourth- pry out the left overs on each side
Ive noticed it wont be with any tools i have lying around that will get these installed. Ill have to visit a buddy tomorrow to press them in.
and here is the 4th pic mentioned,,outter ring out.
As mentioned before, be sure you support the open portion of the arm as you press the bushings in.
Yep, i was eyeballing that a while ago. Ill probably insert a piece of steel the correct width in between there in the open area while pressing.
i thought of that as well. I just think that is one of those things that look better on paper. you sure wouldnt get the spring to go back in doing the same process in reverse thats for sure. You'd raise the car off the ground before hand. Im not a wrench by any means by trade but i do know my way around tools and thinking about things and that process just has too many issues. I guess ill never kwow till i try. Ill stick with what i know,, safety.
Good thread...
Now being rich and lazy, I'll just buy new control arms if I need bushings...
aftermarket ca's that look just like stock?
would they also come with the ball joint?
Wanna know what really sux about all this?
Ford shop up in Union told me if i got the parts, they could do the job for 85bux per side.
I was temped,, but the wife said,,"your really gonna let someone else make sure its done right?":mad:
So,, i guess im knee deep into it. Something tells me they might have made a mistake on that quote.
Not really. I bet they could have handled them in 1-1.5 hours per side, removal and installation. Was that quote for just the R&R on the bushings/ball joints, or was that including removing the arms from the car, etc?
With a press or even an air chisel, the bushings come out pretty easily. I've used both with good quick results.
When I mentioned the saw-zall I was suggesting you chop through the whole lot, shell, bushing, sleeve and all. That would have cut down on the time to remove.
You're pretty much on the backside of it now.
Jeremyb et all
Here is all the information on the FLCA,, enjoy. Below is a lay out of the driver side ca.
Chuck
that quote was for the R/R of the bushings with them doing all the work turn key with me dropping off the car. I think it was a good price.
I looked in that direction but first off my saw zall blade is too big to fit in the 5/8'' inner bushing hole.
and........
if i was able to get a blade in there,, it was difficult for me to figure out "when to stop" perse'. you have to stop just in time or your cutting into the CA. The way i did it gave me more visual control cause i guess i was just being too careful.
so far i have about 6 hours of just g around doing it. Its not really that big of a job,,not fun but not hard either. If i had a press here, i would guess another 3 hours would wrap it up.
Tell ya what...give me a few days and I'll let ya know about getting the spring back in. I already have my front suspension torn down
because I'm replacing all my bushings with polyurethane and to switch to shorter control arms. Anyway...nice job so far on getting those bushings out.
I know for a fact you can do it. I just dont think i want to do it like that. I ran into a harry situation on the passanger side and had to raise the ca back up. I opps'd and forgot i had the ball joing nut off as a "kinda saftey". The ca needs to maintain this odd angle and such and also compress the spring as you jack up. Well, in my situation, i noticed that at that magic point, the car was getting lifted off the jack stand.
Your probably right though.
well,,
Im not sure what i learned from this whole adventure other than
"that didnt fix it":mad:
Soo,, perhaps i should have already looked deeper into the advice i was given earlier about struts?. I inspected them and also the rivit on the top and it is not broken.
Here is what i do know. As you all could see, the old bushings really did not look bad. The new bushings allow the FLCA to shift in the same manner (about a half inch). I honestly took my time getting second and third opinions on this and everyone kept saying control arm bushings. I am very stumped at the moment and for this time being, I will get struts when i get struts. No big deal to change those but i am more interested in the strut tower mounting for the strut. If that is the problem,,, ill have to hunt that part down pretty good cause i dont know of anyone who's ever changed those either.
I do have this quesiton if anyone here can do this visual test. Can anyone verify that putting the car in D then R while smashing the brake peddal causes the CA to shift forward or back about 1/2'' there abouts? I just want to know if it is normal or not.
What an adventure to say the least.
have no fear,, im still plugging away on this.
You know how the universe seems to conspire to make a path for you to walk? Well, apparently i was suppose to take this long walk around the block. Upon reinstallation of my rotor, its pointless to not check the bearings. Well, three rollers fell out when i picked it up off the floor.
The bearings were suppose to be new as well as the rotors but when i did a visual, i saw new pads and rotors. Not sure what the deal is but ill be doing bearings also soon. I had a set on standby anyway so it was no real skin off my nose. I did not pop out the races although im sure they can wait a little while longer.
The good part of this whole thing?
If i have to inspect the strut tower mounting area (which ive never done before), i have to take off the fender skirts. That will kill two birds with one stone because i can probably pick up on the cruise control issue i have while i am in there.
wish me luck and such. until then, Anny is back on the road heading to spartanburg sc again,, then suffolk va then manteo NC sometime soon.
i thought about you when i was putting the bolts back in.
The CA arm bolts are too long. I feel odd saying that but what i know about bolts,, the rule is 'Bolts shall pertrude no more than the thickness of the bolt diameter",,,
so they are too long just as the rack bolts are as well.
Anyhoo, I was putting the front CA bolts in and it occured to me ,,if i put the bolt in backwards,, and if the bolt were shorter, then there would never be a problem getting the bolt out or the nut off.
I had to fight the bolt out of the driver side so thats when i decided to cut some of the pan head area off. Only then was i able to muscle it out. The pass side is totally different but still has its own clearance issues with the rack.
FInally found the problem.
this factory part was to the bottom rear corners of the K member directly under the oil pan.
removed bar and poping stopped. Easy fix, diffucult noise to pinpoint. The pop noise was so loud you could stand at the strut towers and feel it transfer.
This has been a very long walk around the block but im glad the noise was nothing major.
If anyone thinks that bar needs to be there,, ill be more than happy to put it back but it seems to be one of those parts that gets tossed anyway.
Hmmmmmm,My car is squeeking.It only sounds like it's on the driver side.Probably a ball joint or bushing.My luck won't allow for an easy fix.
Im just glad this is over and problem solved.
I was out this evening preping the areas to swap out the upper strut tower mouting assembly. I removed the wheel well skirt also on the driver side to prep for troubleshooting the cruise.
the wife came out to help me locate the noise and falling short of getting a darwin award for being under a car while she put it in D and R,, i felt with my hand until the harmonic of the noise on the chassis felt most intense.
you can imagine how pissed and happpy i was but thats all history now.
That came off of a V6 or V8???
I've only seen those on the 2.3 cars...
I know either of my '88 3.8 cars didn't have 'em.
While the factory piece is pretty flimsy, it still serves a purpose. When you install an aftermarket brace in that location you can actually feel the improvement in stiffness as much if not more than a strut tower brace.
My 88 sport has that bar as well.
Chuck,
I understand what you mean but wouldnt it serve its purpose more precise if it had two mounting holes on each end?
The following thoughts are going through my mind when i visualize the torque/presure the K member is under.
The ends being flat alow for a flex at each end
The ends having only one hole alow for pivit
The shape of the tube is egg shaped on the horizontal plane (not easy to notice)
Improvement
The whole brace should be 1'' square tube steel with two holes on each end.
The would eliminate the above issues.
Yes, this is on a V8 chassis. I suppose the reason a lot of us do not have this is for two reasons.
A- it is a part of the optional sport suspenion package, for example my 87 20th got quad rear shocks while my 87 LS did not.
B- It gets tossed during the ownership phase(s)
I never said it was an optimal design. I said it served a purpose.
Yes, it would be more effective if the bean counters hadn't been involved. The engineers installed it for a reason, but most likely had to make due with the "budget".
So the bar is not on 3.8 cars??? Has been on all the 2.3T/5.0 Birds I've owned(one '86, other 17 all '87-'88s)...
I've never seen it on a 1983-86 car, but it's possible that the bar made it to Turbo Coupes/turbo XR7's during that period. All the 1988 V8 cars I've owned have had it. Don't recall seeing it on the '88 V6 car.
throw it in the trash and get a 4pt. brace
(http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/images/chass_stiff/MMKB4-1.jpg)
Yes, but the 4-point Mustang ones don't work. At least they never did on my cars.
booo to that.
make your own! :shakeass:
Oh trust me....I've been contemplating....
I wonder if someone here couldn't fab up a bar that would work around all 3 stock oil pans (2.3 3.8 and 5.0/5.8 ok it's 4 oil pans wth!) and market 'em.
Only thing is...as pointed out already, they'd need to be square tube and at least 2 holes on each end.
Chuck, would this be feasible? I'd sure be interested...
I've kept the one off the TC, but I didn't know if it would work with the V8 that is going into my Bird.
If I did one, I wouldn't waste time with a 2-point.....
Well maybe I'm mistaken on the '86(was a 5.0)... Didn't keep it long, was gone in a month...
that bar was on my 20th 5.0.
The white coug which was a 3.8 did not have that bar and i wonder if anyone with a 3.8 could verify.
while we are on the topic of odd ball ,,,,
lookie what i found on my catylitic......
i can verify that bar is not on my 86 tbird with the 3.8 v6
If removing that bar made your noise go away then you have a K-member that isn't completely tight to the body. There are six bolts that hold the K-Member to the body. Just to verify, I would loosen each bolt (one at a time) and tighten using an air rachet because these bolts are a PITA. Monitor the bolt as it goes into the nut clip to ensure the clip is positioned properly. Some lube on the bolt will also ensure it tightens up properly as well. That bar assists the k-member from flexing to improve handling. Also check over the K-Member and where it mounts to the body for any cracking or rust just to be sure. Hopefully this is helpful information.
something tells me i need to look at this again. you were right way back on page one. The noise was "k memeber" related. i checked those bolts and they are all tight.
I would loosen them, clean the threads with a wire wheel, lube them, then tighten each one with an impact. One by one. If you just put a socket on them by hand they will probably feel tight but due to debris, corrosion, etc... they will be tight to turn but it's probably not tight to the frame. Hopefully that makes sense. Let us know how you do.
i told you i will check them again but you really confuse me. How in the hell are you gonna get an "air wratchet" to pull that much torque. Maybe i should dust off my torque multiplier since i never get to use it ever<<
Need to use a big ole honkin' impact wrench...
AND if you pull the control arms, you can get it in there... LOL
I used an impact with an impact extension and impact socket. An Air rachet isn't going to have the torque required. Also how you jack the car ukp to get under it can help/hurt you in this process. Keep in mind the K-member has the engine/trans/suspension weight on it so any bolt will feel tight with 2k pounds hanging on it.
... That's one heavy ass car you have... My WHOLE Bird only weighs around 3500 lbs...
Yeah, you're right, I exaggerated just a little. Hopefully it still made sense.
I had the same type noise that I could never find. Only hapenned when changing auot shifter from R to D (or vice versa) or stopping really fast and hard. I finally took the time to loosen the back 4 K-member bolts (my impact would not loosen the front 4 bolts) and retighten them and the noise has disappeared. Mine also has the 2 point bar under the oil pan.
FYI, I've been working on an '88 XR7 for a local high school student and had been chasing a popping noise when the front end dipped under braking...but not when bouncing the car by hand. I found one of the front K member bolts, two of the rear, and one bolt in that cross brace loose. I pulled them out, wire wheeled the threads, and put them back in with loc-tite and problem fixed. Thanks again for the info!