Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: booksix on September 23, 2007, 07:50:10 PM
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 23, 2007, 07:50:10 PM
The alternator in my 88 5.0 TC just died and some of the wiring (which was previously extended with some poor solder joints) went with it. So, since I'm rewiring AND buying an alternator I was thinking 3g... But, since I have only LOWERED the electrical stress on the system (no ABS, PRC and no aftermarket stereo - for now) could the 3g just simply be too much for the car? Or doesn't it matter? Won't cost much more so I figured, might as well.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: vinnietbird on September 23, 2007, 08:25:11 PM
Go 3G.I did it some time ago.I didn't have any extra electrical items on the car at that time,and was still glad I did it.I didn't have the dim lights when every accessory was turned on (like the heater,defroster,lights,radio,fog lights).Easy to do,and you'll already have it done when you do decide to do any upgrades.It's not overkill.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: chri85tc on September 23, 2007, 08:27:35 PM
Yeah I dont think its overkill either as I put in a 200 amp from PA performance just because. I dont even have a kickin radio either.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on September 23, 2007, 08:29:34 PM
I'd not be worried about overkill - so long as the charging wire can handle the current if the battery were to get discharged. I'm using a 95A version and it's perfect for my needs.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: vinnietbird on September 23, 2007, 08:29:46 PM
If it's good enough for a 3.0 Taurus,surely it's not overkill for a 5.0.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: DMC24guy on September 23, 2007, 09:03:47 PM
Yes, it CAN be overkill, and possibly burn your car down. However, 99% of the time, it will turn out just fine, and everything will work even better than before the swap.
But, like everything in life, there is that .01% chance something catastrophic will occur, and if it does....watch out.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: chri85tc on September 23, 2007, 09:13:19 PM
Yes in my car I added heavier gauge wire. As reccomended by PA Performance
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Chuck W on September 23, 2007, 09:16:21 PM
Quote from: DMC24guy;178148
Yes, it CAN be overkill, and possibly burn your car down. However, 99% of the time, it will turn out just fine, and everything will work even better than before the swap.
But, like everything in life, there is that .01% chance something catastrophic will occur, and if it does....watch out.
Just because you botched the install, it doesn't mean that it's overkill. The fact that you installed a 3G alt was not the reason for your car to catch fire, it was the install.
If you don't need a higher amperage unit, one like a 95A would be fine and you'd benefit from a more efficient, up-to-date unit. However, the output amperage has no effect on the output voltage, just how well it can feed the required amp load. A 130A would be fine if that's what you can find. The key is to make sure your output wiring can handle the potential output of whatever alt you choose, and to install the unit correctly.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 23, 2007, 09:30:20 PM
So, I can rewire the output wiring but I'm confused as to why all the other wiring in the car wouldn't have to be upgraded...
Anyway, another question, 'cause the local auto parts stores are retarded and I just spent hours with 3 stores that can't use there alternator testing machines right (btw, still trying to figure if my alt IS indeed bad):
So, like I said, a solder joint inches from the alternator output stud failed. Sometime before/after that the rubber boot covering the stud also completely melted (I'm guessing this allowed arcing and heating of the solder joint). So, I re-soldered the joint just for testing, recharged the battery (it died while I attempted to get out of the intersection) and checked voltage across the battery. Got something like 12.2v. Then fired the car and it dropped to 10.9v. So, at first I figured this meant the alternator wasn't charging. But then I thought, maybe the alternator is fine, my wiring is still bad somewhere and the voltage drop is just from the computer and ignition, etc... running.. What do you guys think? Is there a better way to test my alternator? Can I put my DVM on the output stud and test right there to see if it gives voltage before the wiring?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 23, 2007, 10:42:30 PM
The only wire in the car that has to be upgraded is the one between the output stud on the alternator and the solenoid. It is the only wire that is carrying the alternator's output.
If the wire is sized properly and fused properly there is no danger of "overkill". The things have a voltage regulator in 'em for a reason. The alternator will only put out what is required to keep the battery charged. If your total draw on the battery is 30 amps (fuel pump, EEC, blower motor, for example) the alternator will only put 30 amps out.
The real advantage of a 3G swap is that not only does it have a higher peak capacity, it is also running more efficiently and will last longer at "normal" charging rates. A stock 65 amp alternator putting 40 amps out is running at 67% capacity, while a 95 amp 3G is only running at 42%. A 130-amp is only running at 30%, so it's hardly breaking a sweat.
Yes, you can test the voltage right at the output stud. Normally, though, when a battery goes bad the charging voltage actually goes up - the alternator is putting out more power, trying to forcefeed a battery that won't take it.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 23, 2007, 11:09:37 PM
Ahh, I get it... the voltage regulator! :hick:
So, can I do any tests and tell anything with what I have... or do I have to journey to distant parts stores in search of someone who can actually test my alternator?
And last question... With so many posts about a 3g upgrade I'm confused. The "reply 49" on the official sticky shows a "final" diagram that seems to have more plugs than my setup and the tech article on nato has me adding 3 wires from the output stud and modifying the bundle of fuse links, etc... I know it's been discussed a lot, and I've read it all, but still can't seem to find a final 88TC diagram. What directions do I follow?
EDIT: There are two 130 amp 3g's on paperformance.com. I'm in a bind and need to either order one of those or a stock replacement tonight... can some one tell me which one is the one I need? I can't tell the difference between them...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 23, 2007, 11:19:48 PM
One more thing... there are two 130 amp 3g's on paperformance.com. I need to either order one of those or a stock replacement tonight... can some one tell me which one is the one I need? I can't tell the difference between them...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: softtouch on September 23, 2007, 11:35:20 PM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;178137
I'd not be worried about overkill - so long as the charging wire can handle the current if the battery were to get discharged. I'm using a 95A version and it's perfect for my needs.
That's an interesting point. I don't know what the maximum current a discharged battery can draw is. If the stock wiring is left in place it would blow the fuse link between the alternator output and the battery if it drew too much current.
Quote from: booksix;178160
So, I can rewire the output wiring but I'm confused as to why all the other wiring in the car wouldn't have to be upgraded...
Look at it this way: If the power plant installs extra turbines and doubles its' power output capability you don't have to upgrade your house wiring.
Quote
So, like I said, a solder joint inches from the alternator output stud failed. Sometime before/after that the rubber boot covering the stud also completely melted (I'm guessing this allowed arcing and heating of the solder joint).
If a good solder joint got hot enough to melt the solder you are drawing way too much current through that alternator output wire. This makes me wonder if your wiring is stock and if you have a fuse link between the alternator. A bad solder joint may overheat because it's a bad solder joint.
Quote
So, I re-soldered the joint just for testing, recharged the battery (it died while I attempted to get out of the intersection) and checked voltage across the battery. Got something like 12.2v. Then fired the car and it dropped to 10.9v. So, at first I figured this meant the alternator wasn't charging. But then I thought, maybe the alternator is fine, my wiring is still bad somewhere and the voltage drop is just from the computer and ignition, etc... running.. What do you guys think?
I don't think the computer,ignition and fuel pump should drag the voltage down that much. Disconnect the output wire from the alternator. Recharge the battery and start the car with the alternator wire disconnected. Check the battery voltage after it has been running a few minutes to give the battery time to recover from running the starter motor.If the voltage is still down to 10.9 you may have a weak battery and a bad alternator.
If the voltage is now good you have bad alternator that is putting a load on the battery. This would explain the wire overheating.
Quote
Can I put my DVM on the output stud and test right there to see if it gives voltage before the wiring?
Yes
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: DMC24guy on September 23, 2007, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Chuck W;178153
Just because you botched the install, it doesn't mean that it's overkill. The fact that you installed a 3G alt was not the reason for your car to catch fire, it was the install.
I did NOT botch the installation. I followed the official instructions over at NATO, used all the components recommended in that Installation guide, yet it caught fire. You are WRONG.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on September 23, 2007, 11:40:22 PM
uh-oh - the guy in the sig is talking to ya :D
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 24, 2007, 12:00:57 AM
Yes, stock wiring (extended to reach around 5.0) and a stock 88TC alternator... so the current wiring should be just fine. Has been for many years so far.
And am I understanding correct that a bad alternator CAN cause the output wire to overload/overheat?
And last, can someone please let me know which 130a 3g on paperformance's ford alternator page (http://"http://www.paperformance.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=19") is the right one? I can't figure out why there are two the same but listed seperate and if I don't figure it out tonight/early AM, I'll have to go with a stock replacement (because of time constraints and shipping time) which I really hate to do considering it's not much more $$ to upgrade...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: JeremyB on September 24, 2007, 12:27:15 AM
Quote from: DMC24guy;178198
I did NOT botch the installation. I followed the official instructions over at NATO, used all the components recommended in that Installation guide, yet it caught fire. You are WRONG.
Actually, you didn't follow the directions.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: vinnietbird on September 24, 2007, 07:40:59 AM
3rd alternator from the left,on the top row,on the second page,for a 5.0.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Chuck W on September 24, 2007, 08:25:06 AM
Quote from: DMC24guy;178198
I did NOT botch the installation. I followed the official instructions over at NATO, used all the components recommended in that Installation guide, yet it caught fire. You are WRONG.
You are wrong in stating that swapping in a 3G has the potential to cause the car to burst into flames. An improper install is the reason.... I'm pretty sure it was established that you did NOT follow the directions to a "T", but you REFUSE to accept the fact that you might have made a mistake.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 24, 2007, 10:17:09 AM
Ok, thanks! But what is the difference you see between the one on the top row, and the one on the bottom row (I like to understand, not just have the answers, LOL - I know, I ask SO much!)
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 24, 2007, 10:18:05 AM
Ok, correction, 3rd from the left on the top is a 200a. I want a 130a. Still top row? And how do you know? thanks again!
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 24, 2007, 11:15:24 AM
Ok, nevermind... I realized it's cheaper to just get the stator plug and fuse, etc... on two day air and get the alternator from a parts store.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: vinnietbird on September 24, 2007, 12:21:18 PM
The one that is on the second page,top row,third from the left states it's a 130 amp.It shows it right under the alternator "130 amp".It has wiring with it as well.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 24, 2007, 03:48:10 PM
Ahh, .... I didn't even see other pages! Ok, but I don't have an external regulator. Do I need this kit to maintain factory warnings lights and all? I was just gonna make my own wiring (ordered the stator plug and a fuse block/fuse) and get the alternator locally...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Carpimp1987 on September 24, 2007, 05:14:11 PM
Like anything if done right it will help your car and would be worth a little down time if you know what your doing or got the money to upgrade. I will say do it so later if you add anything you won't have to worry much about the power it uses.
Stinger Audio makes a 450amp alternator would that be overkill? they also have a twin set-up 2 alternator 900amp for the newer SUV's as well. 5 year replacement plan thats all i know and there not cheap.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 24, 2007, 05:33:14 PM
Yeah, I'm doing it... Just wanted to get my last question about the pa performance kit answered... Seems wrong for me as I have an internally regulated setup now...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 24, 2007, 06:13:54 PM
Quote from: booksix;178325
Ahh, .... I didn't even see other pages! Ok, but I don't have an external regulator. Do I need this kit to maintain factory warnings lights and all? I was just gonna make my own wiring (ordered the stator plug and a fuse block/fuse) and get the alternator locally...
The factory AMP gauge in your Turbo Coupe likely doesn't work anyway (it is a useless "gauge" that tells you nothing, hardly ever works, and will likely never move over the entire life of the car - why Ford didn't install VOLT gauges like they did in Mustangs I'll never know), but no, it won't work with the 130 amp alt.
I don't know about the TC's, but in 5.0 cars you can retain your stock regulator plug (you've just got to rewire it slightly). You can also re-use your stock heavy-gauge black/orange stripe output wire - cut the plug off, install a ring terminal, and bolt it to the output stud along with and in parallel with the new, heavier wire you MUST install.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 24, 2007, 07:57:16 PM
My output wire already has a ring terminal on it, not a "plug." Are you saying your's had a plug or just a ring terminal that was too small for the 3g output stud? And yeah, i'm going to re-pin my stock reg plug and add 4 gauge to the out...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: CougarSE on September 24, 2007, 08:21:22 PM
2G's had a plug for the output's.. Two black/orange wires and a third I don't recall. Then the regulator plug.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 24, 2007, 08:38:58 PM
so why the heck did my 88 tc have the 3 plug (one going no where) connector and a single ring terminal output??
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 24, 2007, 08:49:28 PM
Because I think (but not 100% sure) 88 TC's didn't have 2G alternators. I think (again, not sure) they had a different alternator - Nippondenso, Bosch, or something like that. That's why I qualified my post with "Don't know about TC's, but in 5.0 cars..."
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 24, 2007, 11:02:21 PM
Ha! I see. Maybe that's why I'm having problems understanding exactly what to do with the 88. Anyone wanna chime in?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: softtouch on September 24, 2007, 11:06:19 PM
If someone with an 88 EVTM could post the 2.3 charging circuit, it may be helpful.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: 84 Fila on September 24, 2007, 11:34:44 PM
;)
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: softtouch on September 24, 2007, 11:43:39 PM
Is that from jcassidy's 87 EVTM? If it is I have that. I am wondering if 88 is different.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: CougarSE on September 24, 2007, 11:45:33 PM
88's had the predecessor to the 3G, a Mitsubishi unit if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 12:28:57 AM
Yeah, it looks a LOT like a 3g. Only no external stator plug. I just don't know much about this type of circuit... All I know is I need to figure it out ASAP!
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 25, 2007, 12:41:06 AM
Quote from: booksix;178393
so why the heck did my 88 tc have the 3 plug (one going no where) connector and a single ring terminal output??
here is why,,,,,,,,,,,,, IS EVERYONE ON BOARD cause i honetly think this site can geter done correclty.
THE STICKY IS ONLY GOOD FOR ANY alternator with two plugs. Thats it. This will include most all 3.8 and 5.0 configs from 84 and up with slight diviations with respect to earlier years with duraspark 1,2 and 3 isolated to 83 and some 84's in the USA while further on in years for canada models
Ive been digging into this for a couple months now but i need TC people to jump on this for the sake of other TC folks.
To answer your question,,,,,You have an 88. Your wiring "should have" been exactly like what is in the sticky. Someone has in the recent past modified it to reflect the 87 setup and might be the reason for the problems on wiring issues.
The 87 had one small "D" shaped input plug connector and one "RING" lug output connector.
The 88 is identical to the sticky we have. There is nothing wrong with the sticky, its fine. The problem is our being able to have access to the 88 wiring of the TC.
Thunderchicken,, you still got reaching arms to get at mitchel on demand for the 88TC?
Tom,, you got anything?
we need to team up and do the drawing for the 87 and 88 TC as an addendum to the sticky.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 25, 2007, 12:47:18 AM
Quote from: booksix;178474
Yeah, it looks a LOT like a 3g. Only no external stator plug. I just don't know much about this type of circuit... All I know is I need to figure it out ASAP!
here you go.... you help us help you. Go to one of those shops that perfrom electrical diagnostics on cars. Ask if you can pay them for a copy of the charge diagram on the 87 and 88 tc. Ask if they have access to a software that covers wiring on a ton of cars old and new and buy a copy of the diagram. we already have the 87 wiring but it would be nice to see what other layouts there are out there.
scan it and post it.
once we have it,, we can take it from there.
I highly suggest you dont do this until its looked at and layed out by the pros here. Thats only a suggestion with good intentions.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 25, 2007, 12:58:14 AM
and back to what thunderchicken said about the meter,,,,
the yellow wire up in the drawing fila posted is in parallel with the actual meter. That yellow wire is acting like a shunt. In other words,, the wire is calibrated to a specific size/length/kcmil to drop a specific voltage of i would guess about .018vdc max.
that would be 18mvdc the meter is reading across at max. as the voltage across that wire decreases, the meter will also decrease in needle sweep.
In a controlled and cooled situation, shunt systems are very practical and accurate and are used in a wide array of equipment, in an engine bay, they are not.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 25, 2007, 01:07:58 AM
Quote from: DMC24guy;178198
I did NOT botch the installation. I followed the official instructions over at NATO, used all the components recommended in that Installation guide, yet it caught fire. You are WRONG.
yeah but see,,, you still have not posted any pics that people can make heads or tails out of.
I stuck up for you a little cause i understand the very part of the install you did not do. You explained what you did and it appeared correct that you did not have to do that part. You did double up your wire output by using two bk/or wires. A few people stuck for you in some shape or form. I simply wanted to get to the bottom of it. Everytime i brought up pics or whatever, you never got back with answers. Actually, the thread died. Im still puzzled and your the reason why im pushing so hard to fix this problem we have here. Its just as much your responsiblity to help this guy out and others but also, find the energy to kick this problem in the ass and not let it happen to you again. Id vote you be the best candidate for the task of laying out the wiring diagram if you feel up to it. you have the most to gain actually.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 25, 2007, 08:52:18 AM
Quote from: jcassity;178475
Thunderchicken,, you still got reaching arms to get at mitchel on demand for the 88TC?
I have Mitchell on demand in my lap. It's on the laptop computer. I also have two 1987 EVTM's and a 1988 EVTM. My Mitchell diagrams show three wires at the alt: black/orange (output), yellow/white (A terminal, hot at all times), and light green/red (I terminal, hot when ign in RUN). Dunno what the EVTM's show as they're out in the garage
Quote from: jcassity;178478
and back to what thunderchicken said about the meter,,,,
the yellow wire up in the drawing fila posted is in parallel with the actual meter. That yellow wire is acting like a shunt. In other words,, the wire is calibrated to a specific size/length/kcmil to drop a specific voltage of i would guess about .018vdc max.
that would be 18mvdc the meter is reading across at max. as the voltage across that wire decreases, the meter will also decrease in needle sweep.
In a controlled and cooled situation, shunt systems are very practical and accurate and are used in a wide array of equipment, in an engine bay, they are not.
They are also not practical or accurate when you add a second shunt, which is what you are essentially doing when you run the new output wire.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 08:53:09 AM
Ok, I can do some research and get some diagrams... But I just want to understand completely: No one on here has done a 3g install on an 88TC? Just making sure I understand what's being said. The py part about all this is I ordered all the parts I need to do this and I'm definitely NOT gonna rush it, but my car has to be on the road by the end of tomorrow (wednesday, 26). Looks like I may have to return the alternator and be stuck with a stocker for now....?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 09:24:38 AM
Would it help at all to give you colors from my actual car or test voltages with the key on/off? I can get whatever diagrams from a shop I know but not for a day or two.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 09:33:56 AM
I feel like I'm talking to myself this morning but that's ok. How can I get a hold of Jeff Korn? His article on NATO says he did this in an 88TC. It all sounds pretty good until connecting his 3 10 gauge output wires... His explanation as far as cutting and splicing in different places, etc... is kind of confusing. But obviously he got it to work somehow... It does concern me a bit that the title on the browser for the 3G install page is "Cold Air Induction Install" though! :hick:
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: JeremyB on September 25, 2007, 10:00:28 AM
His NATO article is less than impressive...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 10:03:45 AM
Yeah, I somewhat feel that way, too. BUT, can anyone else say they've pulled it off? Props on that at least. And if we could get a few more details, it may reveal how it exactly was done...?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 10:19:52 AM
Looking at the NATO article again:
His wording is confusing but it seems he ran a 10 wire to the solenoid, REPLACED the original output wire to the shunt with a new 10 gauge wire and then the third wire I can't figure out what he exactly went with it... Why not just retain the original output wire (which already ties into all the right things) and ADD a 4 gauge to the solenoid, then re-pin the reg plug and be done (I'm assuming this is how most do it)?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: JeremyB on September 25, 2007, 10:49:02 AM
Confusing^3.14159...
Wire 1 - Run from the alt. to the solenoid Wire 2 - Run from the alt. to the original power wire. The original power cable is cut " a few inches from the huge splice" and then joined with the wire you just ran Wire 3 - Run from the alt. to the yellow wire, downstream of the "huge splice".
There reason he chooses such an unorthodox wiring method is to keep the ammeter functional. Originally, all current passed through the BK/O wire, over the shunt wire, and to the starter relay, etc. The electrical flow is going right-to-left on the EVTM.
If you simply keep the 10AWG BK/O wire and add a 4AWG wire to the starter solenoid, you can lose functionality of the ammeter. In a "perfect" circuit (no losses due to corrosion or connection resistance) the voltage at the S261 will be higher than S262, resulting in a ammeter showing a negative charge, when it is simply flowing L-R over the yellow wire.
I'll make a simple diagram to supplement the write-up...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 11:09:13 AM
Thanks dude, that'd be SO awesome! I know it's been stated the gauge is basically useless, but I'd like to get it at least wired up right...
So I'll still use my 4 gauge (already had it anyway) and then go buy a bit of 10 gauge to add these other lines in..?
Then I just have to figure out how to fit this new cable on my already over packed solenoid (got a mini starter with the extra solenoid on it so I have lots of big cables on the battery side of the solenoid)!
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 11:30:27 AM
Ok, that's what I thought it meant. I'm just confused why having two wires parallel to the yellow wire (essentially connecting at the same point) is any different than having just one... but I guess it's cause I don't know a lot of in depth electrical stuff... :(
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 12:07:13 PM
Also, the yellow wire: As seen in the photo below... should I just loop it back to the output stud as seen below or keep it connected as it already is in the car (as jeff korn does it on NATO)? Either way it's just a constant 12v, right?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: softtouch on September 25, 2007, 06:10:48 PM
The yellow wire to the A on the regulator is the voltage the regulator "looks" at to set the output voltage. If the regulator is set to regulate to 14 volts it adjusts the output until it "sees" 14 volts on the yellow wire. To compensate for any losses in the wiring, which would be more during high current situations, the voltage at the alternator output would be higher than 14 volts.
Jeff Korn's write-up refers to the meter shunt as "a thick yellow wire" [COLOR="Red"]IF[/COLOR] the shunt is 4 GA or bigger I would run a 4 GA wire from the alt. output to the shunt instead of the two 10 GA's that Jeff uses. Then replace the green 14 ga fuse link from the other end of the shunt wire to the starter solenoid with two grey 12 GA fuse links in parallel.
My '01 Grand Marquis has a 130 amp alternator. It has no stator output and no S input on the regulator. The connection between the two is made internally. It uses the two 12 ga fuse links in parallel to protect the 4 GA wire between the output and the battery.
If you use Jeff's hook-up add a 40amp fuse in the 10 GA wire from the alt. output to the starter solenoid.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 06:52:10 PM
yeah, I just didn't get why that connection would be external at all...
Anyway, I'm not following all of jeff's instructions. The plan so far is something like: 4 gauge from alt to solenoid (200 amp fuse), 10 gauge from alt to shunt (per jeff's instructions - seemingly already there from the factory, don't get why he replaces it unless he meant to remove all these fuselinks from the solenoid and have them connect straight to this first 10 gauge coming from the alt) and then one more 10 gauge from the alt (spliced in just downstream of the first 10 gauge - for reasons I'm still unsure of!)...? Is this making sense?
I'll take pics of my car wiring and making some diagrams of the plan after work... in the meantime, feel free to correct me!
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: JeremyB on September 25, 2007, 08:25:09 PM
You need a fuse that is <135A on the 4AWG wire, the point of the fuse it to protect the wire. A 200A fuse on 4AWG wire will let the wire melt and potentially cause a short to ground.
Also, if you're going to use 4AWG to the solenoid, you can forgo the wire running to the shunt.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 09:11:50 PM
Well, two things...
1. 200 amp is the fuse PA Performance recommends/sells with there mustang upgrade kit... i got the same fuse block and fuse they use...?!?!
2. I wanted to connect the shunt wire to atleast have the amp gauge somewhat wire up right, even if it's not accurate... Weren't you the one to say that Jeff's shunt connection was weird but done this way to achieve this? Either way, that's the goal...
Pics coming...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 09:15:31 PM
oh, and there wire kits are all 4 gauge...
"All kits are provided with 200-amp Littlefuse Brand Fuse and Holder. Based on Littlefuse performance specifications and tolerances this is the appropriate rating. Please do not increase or decrease the fuse amperage value"
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 09:21:05 PM
Ok, pic 1: "Stock wiring configuration" (besides the fact that they are cut and taped together!) Left to right: black/orange (from alt stud), black/lt grn (ends), lt green/red (goes to blue fuse link then that splits into a bunch of wires and goes back into the bundle), and yellow/wht (meets up with shunt where they connect to a green fuselink --> solenoid).
One more pic with question coming...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 09:27:20 PM
Ok, and pic 2: Is that the shunt?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: softtouch on September 25, 2007, 10:18:04 PM
Yes that is the shunt. The other end of it is spliced to the green fuse link that goes to the solenoid. What gauge do you think the shunt wire is?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 25, 2007, 10:45:31 PM
Looks like a 10, why?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 25, 2007, 10:48:26 PM
trust me bro,,,,,,,,,, You want to fuse ANY CIRCUIT at 80% max current.
so ,, what is 80% of 130? even a 120amp fuse is pushing the limit. rule of thumb, fuse lower than the rated circuit draw. slap PA perfromance around then tell em to explain ohms law and how it applies to the product they supply.
Trust me,, YOU WANT that fuse to blow by the time its putting out 130 amps,, not 200. shesh and whats the tolerance on that lil fuse they gave ya? +- 20%,, or even better,,, its a slow blow 200amp:beatyoass:
I need a pic of the stock 88 alternator. I was just down at TC50's house and he has an 87 half motor and that alternator has an output stud and one small exciter plug. By comparrison, I was certain the 88 was wired with two plugs like the 3.8 and the 5.0.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 25, 2007, 10:52:52 PM
Was your old alternator configured like the "BEFORE" drawing illustrated from the sticky? IIRC, i think you said your old alternator had one plug and one stud. just curious.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: softtouch on September 25, 2007, 11:35:14 PM
Quote from: booksix;178715
Looks like a 10, why?
It just means my "what I would do if the shunt was 4 GA or larger" thing won't work.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on September 25, 2007, 11:43:21 PM
Fuses will eventually fail when run at thier rating repeatedly/for an extended period of time. General rule of thumb is max. current * 1.2 to 1.3 in my industry (power supply).
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 12:08:05 AM
Here's the alt. Bad pics but good enough to see the D-shaped plug and the stud below. As for the config, NO, not like the before because I don't have that many plugs... My diagrams suck (quickies) but MY before and a planned after are below (next reply)...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 12:12:28 AM
Here they are. Only thing I think I'm still missing is the extra wiring Jeff included to retain the "functionality" (or lack there of) af the dash gauge... Just don't entirely understand where he ran it...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 12:37:10 AM
Ok, so my other problem is this fuse. PA Performance seems to think this 200 amp is right... I also just bought the fuse block and fuse from them along with my stator plug and a few other odds and ends on 2nd day air because I have to get this thing working by the end of tomorrow (I get the parts tomorrow). But now I need to find a new fuse (preferably one that will fit that fuse block) but idk where to go. I checked radio shack, frys, best buy, circuit city... idk, I'm sure I can go to a custom car audio shop... I'm just irritated! How can PA be so clueless if this fuse really performs as a 200 amp? :beatyoass: good vent session...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 12:44:19 AM
So confused! Even "Mustang Monthly" used their kit and did a write up... 200 amp fuse and all. Not that I doubt anyone because it's pretty self-explanitory anyway... but how did they miss it (or are they just a bunch of tools with a magazine?)
Ok, I need to go to bed before I go more crazy talking to myself! Thanks all for the help... :toilet:
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 12:58:32 AM
Quote from: Cougar5.0;178723
Fuses will eventually fail when run at thier rating repeatedly/for an extended period of time. General rule of thumb is max. current * 1.2 to 1.3 in my industry (power supply).
from a design standpoint such as how a piece of equipment is manufactured to "supply" power that would be a true statement. IE- the power company will design systems with that thought process just as the components in the alternator are made like that as well since in this case the alternator is the power company. Same goes true for household breakers with the same thought process but not nearly as drastic as 1.3 but close.
on the user end,, such as "recieve" current, its the opposite. His starter, headlamps, wiring ect ect are the "user". Another example of the far end ampacity would be the fuse found in a power supply of a computer. rather small if you do the math given to you on the power supply case sticker.
this is a judgment call on the safe side and a prudent one at that.
upsizing a fuse is never a fix, it just allows things to melt on the energy consumption side.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 01:05:45 AM
Quote from: booksix;178733
So confused! Even "Mustang Monthly" used their kit and did a write up... 200 amp fuse and all. Not that I doubt anyone because it's pretty self-explanitory anyway... but how did they miss it (or are they just a bunch of tools with a magazine?)
Ok, I need to go to bed before I go more crazy talking to myself! Thanks all for the help... :toilet:
there is nothing wrong with using the 200A fuse ---->>>> if there is no antipated problem. I just want you to know that if there is a problem,, smoke will steam out from various wiring before the fuse ever blows. Im not gonna bust on anyone on that site, they probably feel like it works out best. whatcha gotta ask your self is this........."do you feel lucky"
whatcha really aught to do for test purposes is to tie in a circuit breaker on the output of the alt. just head over to an electrical supply joint and pic out a DC breaker that has two threaded studs on it. In all honesty, some of the real huge fuses are rated for a high enough amperage to handle what your doing. Its just a pain if you keep blowing fuses. Just get a breaker for now about 60-70amps (or lower is my best suggestion). atleast then you can reset it. The bonus is that you know if the project is a sucess without having burnt up wriing. Honestly, id start out with a 30 or 40 amp breaker. It just makes better sense for testing out things. keep all accessories off to keep the load low. then you can bring various features on line slowly for test purposes. Once you know the breaker does not trip, you can make it perm or wire in the fuse. I like breakers myself.
now leme look at what you drew up there.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 01:24:00 AM
Quote from: booksix;178729
Here they are. Only thing I think I'm still missing is the extra wiring Jeff included to retain the "functionality" (or lack there of) af the dash gauge... Just don't entirely understand where he ran it...
man, this seem like a flashback to a few weeks ago. The other guy also had the same problem with the meter wiring. He ended up wiring everything out except the meter wiring and the harness smoke checked,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,on its own,,,,,,while he was napping. wiring everything out except the meter wiring seems pretty cut and dry to me but still his smoke checked.
I still dont think your 88 configuration is an actual 88. I think its been modified for the 87 layout. Are you sure thats an 88? positive? dont let bolt on body parts fool you, verify the vin.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 01:37:36 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;178498
I have Mitchell on demand in my lap. It's on the laptop computer. I also have two 1987 EVTM's and a 1988 EVTM. My Mitchell diagrams show three wires at the alt: black/orange (output), yellow/white (A terminal, hot at all times), and light green/red (I terminal, hot when ign in RUN). Dunno what the EVTM's show as they're out in the garage .
can you put up the 88 tc charge distribtion?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 02:00:26 AM
oh gezzz, i think i just fixed your problem dood. I feel like an idiot.
stop and think about this for a moment. You just might want to finish that ho conversion and all your problems will go away and the sticky will apply to your car. Im not really sure why i just noticed but your runnin an HO 5.0. ,, not a tc half motor. This is my fault for not paying attention to your very first post or i would have said all this from the beginning as it would have been the proper response and imho, the best and only option for your betterment in the future.
Go get the engine harness and finish up the project.
what you have now....
an 88TC converted to 5.0HO with an 87 alt wiring configuration.
the three are too darn difficult for me to jump between and figure out heads or tails on.
While looking closer at post 58, i scrolled up to see post 57 and just bout ped myself when i saw that big fat HO bling in the background.
Just finish up the wire project with a simple harness install and be done with it. It needs done anyway and you know it. Theres no sense in taking a risk like this on three mix matched configurations but thats just my opinion.
What triggered me was when you mentioned a certain "yellow" wire that ties into the "blue" fuse link and mentioned the solenoid. sounded so much like and verifies out as "87 application".
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 10:16:52 AM
I don't understand what makes you think it's unfinished? I have one of the most complete 5.0 conversions I've found... Lots of other people I've found throw codes and ignore them/bypass them. My setup is wired right (99% complete I'd say) and works great!
And I'm sure it's an 88... body parts don't fool me on this car because, although I LOVE TC's, somehow I still never figured out how to tell 87 from 88 on the outside. Anyway, the car was built 01/88. Also, why would you think this is an 87 charge setup? If you're certain the 87's had the one plug + stud (almost just like a 3g) then why would Ford take a step back and go to the alt as in the diagram in 88? And not only that, but the guy I bought the car from was the original owner and definitely was NOT the type to modify anything on his car (didn't care/no automotive abilities).
Anyway: COFFEE to wake up and deal with all this confusion! :hick: then car...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 10:24:47 AM
Just to be clear after reading your response again:
Took my 88 TC. Stripped the motor and engine/ecu harness, kept the chassis harness which included all the alternator wiring. Added the 89 mustang ecu harness/computer and a few other necessary things (ie: fuel pump relay circuit)...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 26, 2007, 10:25:54 AM
Quote from: jcassity;178716
trust me bro,,,,,,,,,, You want to fuse ANY CIRCUIT at 80% max current.
so ,, what is 80% of 130? even a 120amp fuse is pushing the limit. rule of thumb, fuse lower than the rated circuit draw. slap PA perfromance around then tell em to explain ohms law and how it applies to the product they supply.
Trust me,, YOU WANT that fuse to blow by the time its putting out 130 amps,, not 200. shesh and whats the tolerance on that lil fuse they gave ya? +- 20%,, or even better,,, its a slow blow 200amp:beatyoass:
Actually, Scott, you want to fuse a circuit at 120% of its intended max current. You fuse the WIRE at 80%. You then choose the wire so that at 80% of its capacity it's capable of carrying 100% of the antited load. That gives you a cushion that allows the circuit to pull as much current as designed (no point in running a 130-amp alt if you're only gonna allow 90 amps through) plus allowances for temporary surges (think fan motors starting), while not maxing out the wire.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 10:30:11 AM
But either way the 200 is too big, right? Dang, I wish I knew more in depth electrical stuff!!! :hick:
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: JeremyB on September 26, 2007, 10:42:32 AM
Quote from: booksix;178778
I wish I knew more in depth electrical stuff!!! :hick:
I wish Mustang Monthly did too. ;)
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 10:43:17 AM
Ahahahaha!! I know right!
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 10:47:58 AM
Oh and one more thing Scott... I don't want to skip the meter wiring... just didn't put it on my diagram because I don't know how to do it yet... so my "after" is still just a "planned so far" after diagram...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 01:27:49 PM
Ok, Scott and I discussed my plan of attack... I'll explain in a bit but here's where I'm at: Took the old wiring, repinned following Jeff Korn's instrustions (ylw/wht to A, Black to S and stator and grn/rd to I). Here's the before and after plugs: Note the black and green/rd wires have switched places/letters - per Jeff's instructions...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 05:12:53 PM
here is a pic of a decent breaker although there are cheaper ones to be had. I wish i knew of a vendor for a cheaper brand. DC breakers are not ordinary but carried by electrical supply shops.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 05:24:35 PM
Quote from: booksix;178784
because I don't know how to do it yet...
that would make two of us:D
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: JeremyB on September 26, 2007, 05:26:31 PM
Waytek Wire (http://"http://www.waytekwire.com/automotive-circuit-breakers.htm") has a decent selection of automotive circuit breakers, if that is the route you want to take. $5 charge for orders under $35.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 05:50:40 PM
i have a few here at the house up to 800amp. the one in the pic is 30A. I could slush you one if you need. It just delays the project for you. State electric, grainger or graybar alike carry them.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 06:01:31 PM
Ok, as I explained to Scott, my first attempt would retain the stock wiring to the shunt (yellow all the way from the exciter plug to the shunt) and the blk/or from the alt output to the OTHER side of the shunt... I figured this circuit should work the same, 3g or not... Only difference is I brought the blk/or from the alt fuse (great idea Scott). I also added a 5 amp fuse to the yellow white per Scott's instructions (just in case). So here's the before and after diagrams again. First test came up with:
battery: 12.27v battery, car running: 14.7v battery again, car off: 12.7x?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 08:23:25 PM
ok everyone,, tom just set me straight. Ive been bass akwards on what is what.
The 87 and down TC has the alterntor connections like that of the 5.0 and 3.8.
The 88 has a stud output. so..... this car is configured correctly.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 08:27:54 PM
LOL, ok... that's straightens out the confusion... anyway, anyone see any problems with my "final" diagram? and for your viewing pleasure... my safety: :hick:
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 08:32:52 PM
:rollin: :bowdown:
your a rocket scientist!
the suspense is killing me.. get er done already.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 09:30:06 PM
Hahaha, yeah! Gotta cover all the bases... fire protection as well! Anyway, you must have missed something!! I fired it up right away... here are the specs again:
battery: 12.27v battery, car running: 14.7v battery again, car off: 12.7x?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 09:44:09 PM
[SIZE="5"]AWSOME!!![/SIZE][COLOR="Red"][/COLOR] so whats next up for doing a final setup? I would remove the yellow wire 5A fuse and retest. If you dont need it, now would be the time to find out.
what did you end up doing on the temp breaker / fuse setup for testing?
hope it all works out., great job btw.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 09:52:38 PM
Well, I'm gonna test the 3g on a 50 mile drive to work tomorrow... this weekend I'll probably pull the 5 amp fuse and retest... Other than that, I think it's done... I'll get final instructions and then probably start posting about my suspension fun LAST weekend! :D
BTW: I just realized I did the test with a 30 amp fuse in the yellow wire (it came in the fuse holder - since switched to 5 amp, yet to test) and I still have this fuse in the block (it's a 60 amp rockford mega fuse that I "dremeled" down to fit in the block:
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 10:00:57 PM
if it all works out, post back with results. id suspect you'll step up that 60A to a larger fuse later on. so....
I suppose now its time to add the 88tc process to the sticky, i wont until you post back knowing its passed the litmus test.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 10:24:28 PM
Yeah, I bought a 100 amp while I was out as well (all they had)... I'll probably track down a 125 someday... As for the 88 sticky addition, I'll be sure to post updates and help you put it together (assuming all is cool).
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention! The 3g looks BAD ASS!! But I need to clock the back cover to get the connections to point down and paint it black... :D
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 10:44:35 PM
Ok, here's the second "in garage" test.. Lights/foglamps, full blast 'vent' and radio on, idling at 750 rpm (DVM shows average: +/- .1v):
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 11:25:23 PM
Quote from: booksix;178997
Ok, here's the second "in garage" test.. Lights/foglamps, full blast 'vent' and radio on, idling at 750 rpm (DVM shows average: +/- .1v):
not bad,,i would have expected the voltage to be more near the 14v than that even with the load you have. Nonetheless, looks like a winner so far.
just fyi, making sure the battery cells are topped of can reduce the strain on the alt and can gain you .5 to 1vdc.
now you need to see what the output of the alt is,, then read across the battery and you will see the difference in voltage drop across your wiring.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: DMC24guy on September 26, 2007, 11:30:08 PM
Congrats on the successful installation! May you enjoy the non-dimming headlights for years to come!
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 26, 2007, 11:35:14 PM
Yeah, I expected more, too. I get something like 14.7 at high idle though. As far as the battery; never adjusted water level before... but it's pretty new... idk...
As for the install, thanks DMC. They actually didn't dim, but my blinkers got pretty slow!! Hopefully that'll be gone. I'll give updates on noticed improvements tomorrow! thanks again for all the input everyone!
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 26, 2007, 11:53:18 PM
Quote from: booksix;179012
Yeah, I expected more, too. I get something like 14.7 at high idle though. As far as the battery; never adjusted water level before... but it's pretty new... idk...
As for the install, thanks DMC. They actually didn't dim, but my blinkers got pretty slow!! Hopefully that'll be gone. I'll give updates on noticed improvements tomorrow! thanks again for all the input everyone!
hummmmmmm:screwy: somethings up. If that battery was involved in or mairried up with the previous alternator that failed,,, and the previous alternator boiled off some electrolyte / slightly dammaged the cells, that would account for the issue. A bad alternator usually means the ac to dc regulation part is going bad letting ac harmonics pass out to the bat. Batteries dont like ac:D
can you get your hands on a known good batt thats not been in the line of fire of the electron war?
nobody wants a full volt or more difference just by rpm increase. All this would tell me is that i should keep my eyes pealed and recheck in the near future. The problem is that the bat may have taken a hit. If you do discover the bat swap with a known good changes things, your better off getting a new one cause eventually that battery will reach out to the 3g and claw away at the regulator ever demanding more and more current for charge.
I know it sounds like we are complaining about crumbs but actually this is the mood point where you get to fine tune. Most would say your fine,, but if you up the rpm and it jumps up a full volt or more, thats just telling me the alt is loaded on something at idle. I dono, maybe its fine, but if your saying the blinker isnt really acting right, its a sign.
I hate to say it but people generally run the circle jerk of new alternator/ new battery,,,then a year or so later,,,,,repeat process. one of the two is always bad and getting one of the two new will feel the effect of the old. The battery is going to "demand" the current if it has some damage. That demand will go up as it continues to fail.(if it is failing). Its possible you might take the bat and get it tested and it will quote unquote "pass". Beware of perception,, perception is reality.
I would also check the cell fluid level. Just add distilled water till its just up to the bottom of the hole on each cell. Bottled water should be good nuff for what little you likely have to add. You'll be surprised how much it will take even if its just a 1/4'' low. Thats a lot of volume inside each cell which equals increased chemical reaction which equals increased condutivity which equals higher voltage potential which equals more stored amperage which means less work for the alternator which means more stable voltage output at a wider range rpm.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 27, 2007, 12:22:27 AM
Looks like a good install...
BTW do you have a underdrive crank pulley??? My 3G will still drop voltage at 750rpm or less with the U/Ds... Course I keep idle up to about 950 in gear, so it ain't a problem...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 27, 2007, 12:24:25 AM
Well, honestly, I'll have to recheck. that 14.7 was on my very first test... I just said "14.7 at high idle" because I didn't let it run long enough to drop... the second time around I fired it and let it run... it pretty much seemed to sit around the number in that pic.
The battery IS the one that died in the failure... recharged and reinstalled. Maybe I'll swap the battery from my GF's mountaineer tomorrow (same battery size) and see what I get. I think the differences were probably just a fluke... we'll see.
For now I have to go 'prep' my 100 amp fuse to fit the block and pack some tools so I can be ready for the trip to work (bigger fuse in case the 60 blows and tools to remove the neg battery terminal while I'm inside working - just in case something shorts and wants to ground out!)
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 27, 2007, 11:08:26 AM
Oh, hey TurboCoupe50.... just saw your question... Yes, I do have an underdrive crank pulley...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 27, 2007, 11:45:51 AM
Ok, first road test (grocery store)!! And WOW! I'm so pumped! My blinkers blink like a real car, my windows roll up and down without looking like they might not make it.... :D woohoo!!
But the weird thing is... I pulled back into the driveway, turned the key off and the engine kept running for .5 secs (max, maybe less- just enough to notice it). Never had that happen on this car (either engine size). What would cause that? Didn't happen after my two in garage tests but did after a drive... I'll see if it does it again when I get to work....
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 28, 2007, 01:12:43 AM
Brett does this look correct?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 28, 2007, 11:29:20 AM
Yeah, that looks perfect! Thanks Scott!
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 28, 2007, 12:12:43 PM
anyone else have an opinion or concern? would like opinions or worries , complaints or diagram conflicts .
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: JeremyB on September 28, 2007, 12:31:23 PM
I believe 3.8 alternator's weren't internally regulated until 1987. Also, 6AWG is only capable of carrying 100A, so the 120A fuse is overrated.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 28, 2007, 03:03:22 PM
i personally think your correct on both accounts.
however, i still dont know what type wire people are using for the output. If its RHH-RHW, then the note for "or 4awg" applies.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: softtouch on September 28, 2007, 11:29:35 PM
84 all engines have external regulators.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 29, 2007, 01:08:44 AM
not to neglect the external regulator people,, but does this look good nuff to stuff up in the sticky?
no one has noticed what i noticed yet in the 2.3 mod. To me,, there is a problem that is created "if" the ammeter is working fine. In the drawing "after", it seems that there is an unbalanced resistance with respect to the shut being in parallel with the alt output thus making the meter likely peg one way or the other.
humm,, am i right?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 29, 2007, 12:34:25 PM
Funny you say that! I had a dream that my gauge pegged out max on my way home from work (the exact same spot where my alternator died last time!!). It was a total trip!
Anyway, I see what you are saying, but wouldn't that scenario play out whether there is a 3G or not? Example:
Stock 88 TC (alt included) Owner adds a large stereo with several power amps... The regulator compensates by upping the amperage in the entire system. Being that the shunt is designed to be of a specific resistent based in it's gauge and length the additional power is routed to the parallel circuit and the ammeter sees the up in power and pegs...?
But in reality, I think it'll still do it's job just for the fact that it is connected as factory, only now we have the ability to recieve more power (ability being the key word because the 3g does not automatically mean the system sees massive amperage increases). So when systems are added to the car (ie: stereo, a/v, etc...) the alternator is prepared to offer more power.
Now, the one thing I CAN see as an issue is the sweep of the gauge is no longer 'calibrated' the same because it was never designed/prepared to read much above 85 or so amps...?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 29, 2007, 01:02:11 PM
Quote from: booksix;179618
because it was never designed/prepared to read much above 85 or so amps...?
that i do not know. I dont know the voltage drop across the shunt under new conditions.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on September 29, 2007, 01:46:45 PM
If the meter is going to be pegged with the higher current from the new higher output alternator (at least when heavy charging), then you need to install a lower value shunt resistor. Ignore this if it is out of context as I have not read every word in the previous posts!
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on September 29, 2007, 03:15:09 PM
Well, in that case, like you said Scott, a variable resistor could be used to dial this in. But of course this is all assuming the gauge works in the first place. Mine, well... with the battery completely out of the car still sat dead center in it's sweep and I don't see it moving when I up my rpms...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 29, 2007, 05:38:29 PM
Personally, I think you guys are all adding a whole lot of complexity to a very simple upgrade. A 3G needs exactly one wire (other than the output wire) to charge, and that wire is the IGN (or "I") wire. Ford has blessed us by providing that wire at the regulator plug. The "S" and "A" wires both double back to the alternator ("S" to the stator, "A" to the output stud). "A" should be fused at 20 amps or so as it feeds the positive brush to the rotor.
All of the efforts to make the AMP gauge work with the 3G WILL NOT WORK. No matter how you wire it, without some very precise calibrating of the shunt wire you WILL NOT HAVE AN ACCURATE, OR EVEN USEFUL, AMP GAUGE. Hell, the thing is inaccurate at the best of times. The moment you add the second output wire (the 6 or 4 AWG wire) you are creating another path for the alternator's current. Electricity follows the path of least resistance, and a 4 gauge wire run directly to the solenoid has a buttload less resistance than a 10-gauge (factory) output circuit.
The ammeter is designed to work with a 10-gauge wire as a shunt. That 10-gauge wire is supposed to carry the full 65-amp capacity of the alternator, with a very small trickle of current passing through the actual ammeter itself. When you run another wire in parallel with that black/orange shunt wire you are throwing the calibration of the ammeter way off - there is simply no way to ensure that the black-orange shunt wire is carrying the portion of current it's calibrated to.
If you want to monitor your charging system, install a VOLT gauge. It will tell you a helluva lot more than the questionable gauge Ford cursed these cars with, and will be accurate no matter what alternator you've got installed.
Below is the simplest diagram for a 3G install you will find anywhere. All of the other diagrams I've seen posted are actually modified versions of the original diagram I put online years ago, and they have done nothing but add complexity to a simple swap. I made some minor modifications (added fuses and more description) but this is as simple as it gets, folks. Follow this diagram and you will have a fully (and safely) functional 3G alternator, whether you have a TC, 3.8, or 5.0, AND THIS INCLUDES EXTERNALLY REGULATED CARS. It is not rocket science, and it is not worth the extra hassle (and danger, as DMC24Guy found out the hard way) to stray from this diagram in a futile attempt to make an already useless gauge a little less useless.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 29, 2007, 05:51:42 PM
By the way, using my diagram above you can make a 3G work in any application as long as the alt will physically bolt in, and this includes non-Fords. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a car. I built a 12V generator for the old guy across from my camp by mounting a 3G from the same van I got my 351 from to an old 10-horse Tespoogeseh snowblower engine. The "I" wire is switched with a simple toggle switch. The generator is used to charge the bank of batteries he uses to power his trailer. He also has solar and wind charging.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: softtouch on September 29, 2007, 06:03:36 PM
To see if your gage works, turn on the headlights with the engine not running. It should show discharge. The headlights are on fuse link H.
The purpose of the gage is to show whether current is flowing toward the battery(charging) or away from the battery(discharging).
In the original hook-up the battery is on one end of the shunt and the alternator on the other. If the alternator could not handle the load on links G H and I then the battery would take up the slack and the gage would show discharge. If it could handle the load and send current toward the battery the gage would show charge.
I can't figure out why they hooked links A thru F on the battery side. It makes the set-up less than pure. It could be those are low current loads and don't make that much differance.
It looks to me that you could load up battery side of the shunt by hooking stuff to the starter solenoid and create a situation where the gage shows charge but the battery is actualy discharging.
A volt meter makes more sense to me. You can see if the voltage is above the battery base voltage of 12.5 (good) or below the base (bad).
Started this post before Thunder Chicken posted.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on September 29, 2007, 07:11:41 PM
The more I read, the more glad I am that I got the 95A version.
1) NO bracket modifications
2) Wiring upgrade suggested but NOT required
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: atariman on September 29, 2007, 09:26:22 PM
I am going to side with Thunder Chicken. People that haven't done the upgrade and that don't know alot about cars are going to see this and make a quick decision...not to do the up-grade. Follow the ways of K.I.S.S.
Anyone military will know what that means. Others may well know too. Brian
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Cougar5.0 on September 29, 2007, 09:31:45 PM
Us design engineers use that term all the time...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on September 29, 2007, 09:40:33 PM
Props added for thunderchicken on the sticky,,,, I cant believe i forgot to. Also, your latest drawing is on the sticky as well. This is the first time ive seen that version and it looks nice.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on October 01, 2007, 04:33:14 PM
Yes, I agree its simple too.. But after 'the fire' and the missing details (not to mention the frighteningly confusing wording/process on the NATO write-up) I felt over buttstuffyzing this process, especially on the 88 tc which is different than most,was important; ESPECIALLY for those who dont know a lot about cars... They can see weve done our homework and built in safties along the way and the final layout is tested... Idk, all goes back to fire paranoia for me!
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: blu84302 on October 01, 2007, 05:15:29 PM
I'll agree. I just read this whole thread and was beginning to worry about doing a 3g upgrade on my 84. After reading TC's post it's not that difficult to understand...
And in regards to the K.I.S.S.:
Us alcoholics know it too!:drink:
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on October 03, 2007, 11:08:00 AM
Ok, so this is still bugging me: about 30% of the time I shut my car off (since the 3g upgrade) it continues to run for about .5 - 1 second. The fuel pump also seems to continue to run that duration. I just can't figure out what would cause this. The only other change I made was moving 3 ring terminals (green fuse link - as seen in diagram, another fuse link, and a third fuse link I added to power just the EEC) to a distribution block about 8 inches from the solenoid (via an 8 gauge power cable). Anyone have any ideas what might cause this or where I can start to troubleshoot?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: Thunder Chicken on October 03, 2007, 12:28:58 PM
Since the circuits required to make the car run require and receive power only when the ignition is turned on the 3G swap couldn't possibly cause it (unless you really, REALLY screwed up the wiring :hick:). I would start looking at the IRCM and ignition switch
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on October 03, 2007, 12:36:06 PM
Yeah, I know the 3g wiring is pretty simple but it literally showed up after 4-5 years with this setup... So I thought it could maybe be from the distribution block I used to free up space on my starter solenoid... Idk why that'd make a difference, still basically connected in the same place... It's just weird it'd show up on my first test drive after the 3g install.
IRCM is what? That secondary computer on a TC? In that case, I no longer have it. As far as the ignition switch, is there a way to test it or would I have to just swap it?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on October 03, 2007, 03:24:36 PM
Ok, I think I got it. When I was 'simplifying' my solenoid stud (by adding a distribution block) I removed the ring terminal that powered my fan relay as well as the 'key on' signal wire which was connected to the green/red for the alternator. So, to test drive with the new alt, I needed a 'key on' signal and a power source. So, since I knew the green/red wire recieved 12v with the key on, I temporarily used this for both. SO, when I go on a long trip, my cooling fan kicks on and when I kill the ignition, the fan blades keep spinning for a moment which I'm guessing generates current in the reverse direction and sends it into the system even though the key is off... and on short trips, no fan, no reverse current.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure this is it... I'm gonna try to fix this up asap.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: softtouch on October 03, 2007, 06:21:13 PM
You are right in that a coasting DC motor becomes a generator.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: softtouch on October 03, 2007, 06:39:50 PM
Here is something you may want to think about. The stator output on the alternator, which is 1/2 the alternator output voltage, use to be used to power the choke heater in the carburetor days. This way the choke didn't begin to heat until after the car was running.
How about using the stator output to pick a 6v relay to power your cooling fan? The fan wouldn't start until the engine is running.
This way you wouldn't have the electrical load of the cooling fan on the battery at the same time you are trying to start the car.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on October 03, 2007, 09:16:50 PM
That's a good idea but I actually don't have the load on the battery while starting (usually). The way I'm doing it is [different] keyed signal that is off during cranking. Then my added temp sensor grounds the relay and closes the circuit at the right temp...
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on October 03, 2007, 11:41:47 PM
booksix for someone as humble as you sound,, you sure do have some smarts about you:hick: not many people would conclude to the dc motor generating power like you described. good eye though.
My earlier opinion was that somethng was keeping the eec relay on longer than normal prior to the 3g,,,,,,,,,,Softtouch, your thoughts?
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on October 04, 2007, 12:23:18 AM
LOL, thanks... I appreciate your comment... It was quite interesting. I was on my way to work and it just clicked! It was pretty cool!
Anyway, you were right in a way (as far as something being powered after the key is killed) only it was the ignition rather than th EEC relay (assuming I'm correct that is).
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: jcassity on October 04, 2007, 12:25:45 AM
Quote from: booksix;180736
Anyway, you were right in a way (as far as something being powered after the key is killed) (assuming I'm correct that is).
well no shiznit sherlock,,,,:shakeass: :D
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: booksix on October 04, 2007, 12:33:25 AM
lol, yeah yeah, I can state the obvious quite well!
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: softtouch on October 04, 2007, 04:43:21 PM
The EEC power relay has a 5 second dropout delay after ignition off.
You may want to consider putting a diode across the cooling fan relay coil. When you open the circuit to the coil, the collapsing magnetic field induces a current. The diode provides a path for that current. Otherwise the current could go through other components that share the same wiring, the ignition coil maybe. Or it may arc across the ignition switch contact.
Title: Can a 3g be damaging overkill?
Post by: CougarSE on October 04, 2007, 06:11:55 PM
I did the 3g swap on my 83. I just put mail blade terminals on the two wires off the back of the d plug and plugged them into the now unplugged regulator plug. Didn't even upgrade the wire going to the battery. Ran it that way forever. Car didn't have a high current draw so I wasn't worried. The output wire never got hot either. I was in a pinch, the only reason I ran it that way.. but it worked. The swap is a very simple swap.