General => General Fox T-Bird/Cougar Discussion => Topic started by: DMC24guy on August 24, 2007, 02:08:29 PM
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 24, 2007, 02:08:29 PM
Within the last two months or so I have noticed that whenever I turn the A/C on in my car, the compressor seems to be making a chirping noise when engaged. Which tells me that it's in the early stages of failing all together. Therefore, I am now hunting for a good HR980 Compressor to put on before the whole system goes bad and I lose all my R-12. Now my question is this:
Since I am rather cheap, do you think an A/C Repair place would be willing to evacuate and Store my R-12 until I'm able to get the New Compressor, take out the old one, and install the new one? Since I know how to change out the compressor myself, I would be saving quite a bit of money.
Once I have the new Compressor installed, I would go back, and have them put the R-12 back into the system. Minimal labor...just to recharge the system.
Would they go along with this? I've never asked to have my refrigerant stored before.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: 4bangen on August 24, 2007, 02:17:06 PM
I converted mine to 134a blows ice cold, makes my ears go numb.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: dominator on August 24, 2007, 02:22:49 PM
I highly doubt it, as even being in posetion of r-12 is illegal. It's really illegal to charge a system with it again,most shops will yes evac it but will not reuse it,you will have to convert. It's fairly cheap and easy to convert,just get a kit from napa with the fittings(under 100bucks up here should be even less down there). You don't have to change the dryer if yours is in good shape and the rest of the system will work. Also being a tc you already have electric fans so the r134 will work quite well and is also tons cheaper than any possible r-12 you find.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: 88sportcoupe on August 24, 2007, 02:46:54 PM
Quote from: dominator;171721
I highly doubt it, as even being in posetion of r-12 is illegal. It's really illegal to charge a system with it again,most shops will yes evac it but will not reuse it,you will have to convert.
:bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs: In the states it is not illegal to posses all you need is to take a simple test and get a card that says you are certified to buy it, they even sell it at parts stores. I still have the test here at home just need to send it in with the fee.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: Masejoer on August 24, 2007, 04:26:34 PM
True, you can in fact still get R12 done, it just costs more.
You'd have to ask your local a/c place about the R12, but I doubt they'd "hold on to it". I'd expect the full R12 charge price on return (they'll take it from you at no charge). I bought a new compressor (and more) from ackits.com last year - works great. Maybe it was refurbished or something, I don't remember, but came looking new in box.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: JeremyB on August 24, 2007, 05:39:58 PM
An A/C place can't "hold on" to your refrigerant.
When they recovery it, the refrigerant goes into a 30/50 lb tank. You should be able to get some sort of credit for your R-12. They'll still charge labor to recover/recharge, but with minimal cost of actual R-12. You should also have them leak check the system when you return it to them. If you end up doing a sub par job on the o-ring replacement, you'll end up with an expensive leak on your hands.
If your accumulator is old, it should be replaced. You should probably also flush and replace the oil in the system for good measure. I'm sure you won't take my advice, but there it is.
Quote from: 4bangen
I converted mine to 134a blows ice cold, makes my ears go numb.
The day your R-134a system blows ice cold in stop-n-go traffic, my 3.8 will run 12s in the 1/4 mile. ;)
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: dominator on August 24, 2007, 10:58:48 PM
You cannot buy true r-12 any more unless it's on the black market. US and CANADA laws are the same about this. The small r-12a bottles you buy you can also get up here but they are not r-12 they are a variation of propane(read the ingredients). The ozone depletion card(which i have and wrote the test for)allows you to posses r-134 NOT r-12 and it is illegal to sell it at all i can gaurentee you of this. And LEGALLY you cannot get r-12 any more unless you goto a country like mexico. These laws apply in all of north america and at least half of the world,r-12 is an ozone depleting suppstance no matter where you are on earth period. And as far as a converted r-12 system running ice cold,mine is living proof and as soon as i add the electric fan for constant airflow across the evap at idle it will be the same in stop and go. The secret to keeping r-134 cold is to make sure the evap always has air flowing across it to cool it down. The size or amount of fins of an evap is irrellevent,i worked on a new ram today that had an evap half the size of mine yet it has anice big electric fan on it and it blew ice cold in 100 degree weather today so i call bs on you guys
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: Billyf17 on August 24, 2007, 11:38:37 PM
:iagree:
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 25, 2007, 08:38:24 AM
I've had bad experiences in the past with another Turbo Coupe and trying to "Convert" it to R-134. I NEVER seemed cold enough (I live in Tucson, AZ). Granted, I didn't changed out the Accumulator or Condenser.
The A/C in my car now is very good, and I'm convinced if I could just somehow get the Blower motor to speed up a little bit, it would be perfect, but I think the compressor is on it's way out.
Where can I locate a new "Accumulator"? Is this necessary? I don't really know how old the one I have is.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: JeremyB on August 25, 2007, 09:35:18 AM
Quote from: dominator;171827
You cannot buy true r-12 any more unless it's on the black market. US and CANADA laws are the same about this. The small r-12a bottles you buy you can also get up here but they are not r-12 they are a variation of propane(read the ingredients). The ozone depletion card(which i have and wrote the test for)allows you to posses r-134 NOT r-12 and it is illegal to sell it at all i can gaurentee you of this. And LEGALLY you cannot get r-12 any more unless you goto a country like mexico. These laws apply in all of north america and at least half of the world,r-12 is an ozone depleting suppstance no matter where you are on earth period. And as far as a converted r-12 system running ice cold,mine is living proof and as soon as i add the electric fan for constant airflow across the evap at idle it will be the same in stop and go. The secret to keeping r-134 cold is to make sure the evap always has air flowing across it to cool it down. The size or amount of fins of an evap is irrellevent,i worked on a new ram today that had an evap half the size of mine yet it has anice big electric fan on it and it blew ice cold in 100 degree weather today so i call bs on you guys
BS you say? I call BS upon you.
I'm not familiar with Canadian laws, but I am familiar with American ones. If you pass the EPA Section 609 test you are legally certified to buy/sell/handle R-12. I bought a 30-lb cylinder of R-12 last year from E-bay. I can buy another cylinder right now if I wish. It is not illegal to buy/sell R-12 once you get your Section 609 certification.
The size and amount of fins on the condenser (not evaporator in this case) is very important. New condensers are parallel flow. They provide approximately 33% more heat transfer than a tube-fin condenser. An undersized condenser will result in poor cooling - primarily in stop-n-go traffic. Fox bodies are notorious for inadequate stop-n-go A/C performance. I have yet to see a converted Fox blow 40 degree vent temps while sitting still - blower on high.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: ZondaC12 on August 25, 2007, 10:43:48 AM
yeah one important thing
evaporator = the "radiator" that air is blown over by the blower fan, ie the one that gets cold
condensor = the one that gets hot and is in front of the car radiator.
its called an evaporator because the refrigerant (currently a liquid) evaporates using the heat of the air blown over it, causing it to cool the surface it evaoprated from, thus the evap gets cold, and so does the air in your thundercat :D
on another note--I think I have lost count of how many times someone has had an issue and one of the responses has been:
"Oh man you gotta understand FOX BODIES ARE NOTORIOUS FOR BAD.....(insert whatever the problem is)
its amazing what we put up with from these stupid things!!!! lol
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: 1BadBird on August 25, 2007, 11:41:13 AM
So JeremyB, If I install a larger condenser coil on my car, then I should have better cooling??. Especially since I plan on moving to the Vegas area. John
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: jncocowboyx on August 25, 2007, 12:00:22 PM
try setting a box fan in front of your condenser first, see if that helps cooling at all. if it does, just throw an electric fan on the front. oh, and someone's gotta be able to get r-12. i believe it's still used in home a/c systems. well, that's what my teacher told us, and he's quite credible.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: t.birdsc on August 25, 2007, 12:03:05 PM
Quote from: DMC24guy;171718
Within the last two months or so I have noticed that whenever I turn the A/C on in my car, the compressor seems to be making a chirping noise when engaged. Which tells me that it's in the early stages of failing all together. Therefore, I am now hunting for a good HR980 Compressor to put on before the whole system goes bad and I lose all my R-12. Now my question is this:
Since I am rather cheap, do you think an A/C Repair place would be willing to evacuate and Store my R-12 until I'm able to get the New Compressor, take out the old one, and install the new one? Since I know how to change out the compressor myself, I would be saving quite a bit of money.
Once I have the new Compressor installed, I would go back, and have them put the R-12 back into the system. Minimal labor...just to recharge the system.
Would they go along with this? I've never asked to have my refrigerant stored before.
If they recover your r12 and give you some type of credit, that would be great. I imagine it would be close to a wash if even that, the credit vs the labor to recover. Anyway at least you wouldn't be venting it. As far as reuse? Maybe if they recycle and dry the refrigerant out, but it would be better to go with virgin refrigerant(moisture free).
134 could be an option for you, before you replace the compressor. The compressor may be making noise due to being low on oil, but chirping could also be a belt. "Reclaim" the refrigerant, dump as much of the oil out of the compressor and fill it with a compatible oil(4-6oz). I think it's ester 100 from Napa, but I can't be certain. They sell two different types of bicompatible refrigerant oils. One of them smells bad, DO NOT use that one because when it degrades it smells even worse. Once you have installed the compatible oil, you just need to figuire a way to vacuum and charge the system with r134a. Finding a way to vacuum the system may be the toughest part. Maybe someone here has a cheap idea? I wouldn't replace that compressor till it locked or couldn't produce any pressures. You would then be out just on the cost of refrigerant, oil, and some fittings. Orings should also be replaced whenever the system is not charged. In addition, r134a MAY not cool as well as the 12, so you just have to weigh all the pluses, minuses and what is available. The blended refrigerants are too questionable imo.
Mike
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: t.birdsc on August 25, 2007, 12:35:57 PM
Quote from: ZondaC12;171906
yeah one important thing
evaporator = the "radiator" that air is blown over by the blower fan, ie the one that gets cold
condensor = the one that gets hot and is in front of the car radiator.
its called an evaporator because the refrigerant (currently a liquid) evaporates using the heat of the air blown over it, causing it to cool the surface it evaoprated from, thus the evap gets cold, and so does the air in your thundercat :D
on another note--I think I have lost count of how many times someone has had an issue and one of the responses has been:
"Oh man you gotta understand FOX BODIES ARE NOTORIOUS FOR BAD.....(insert whatever the problem is)
its amazing what we put up with from these stupid things!!!! lol
Yes, when the refrigerant vaporizes it removes heat from the surrounding surfaces.:bowdown: The orifice is the pressure differential device that actually start the boiling/vaporizing process. Any residual liquid is then stored in the accumulator to prevent liquid from locking the compressor.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: JeremyB on August 25, 2007, 01:39:36 PM
Quote from: 1BadBird;171912
So JeremyB, If I install a larger condenser coil on my car, then I should have better cooling??. Especially since I plan on moving to the Vegas area. John
Yes, a larger/more efficient condenser will increase cooling.
If you spend most of you time at speed, you won't notice much of a difference. The vent temps really go up when sitting in traffic.
You have three main options.
[LIST=1]
Buy a Proliance/Ready-Aire piccolo condenser. It is a direct drop in and should help some.
Install a SN-95 parallel flow (PF) condenser. This will make the system function as well as the factory R-12. Downside is custom brackets must be made.
Install a universal PF condenser. Custom brackets and new hoses will be required.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 25, 2007, 09:01:51 PM
Ok Jeremy, taking your advice to heart, I should:
1)Purchase a new Accumulator (Where can I find one?)
2)Get a Bigger Condenser for more efficient cooling...(Do you know the specific part # for the Proliance Condenser?)
Also most importantly Jeremy, what do you suggest I do to solve the chirping problem? The cooling itself at the moment is fine. I can add on the Newer/Bigger equipment later, right now I would like to fix/silence that chirping. Shall I add some oil to the system? I don't think the belt is the problem, as it only chirps when I have the A/C on. Is there some spray I could use?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: JeremyB on August 25, 2007, 09:21:57 PM
As t.birdsc, the chirping is probably the belt. It could also be the clutch. Bad compressors normally make a grumbling noise.
Try and spray some belt dressing on the belt to see if the chirping clears up. If it does, you may just need to re-tension (no idea on the belt routing of TCs) or replace the belt.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 25, 2007, 09:41:25 PM
Is there an extra force applied to the belt when the Compressor is actually engaged, as opposed to when the A/C is not running? I only ask this because the Chirping only occurs when I turn the A/C on. Since the Belt is moving all the time, and IF it were the belt that was the problem, wouldn't I be hearing a chirping noise All the time?
I'm going out to buy the Belt Dressing right now, and give it a whirl. If that doesn't do it, what would be my next step?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: 1BadBird on August 25, 2007, 09:43:46 PM
The SN-95 option sounds good JeremyB, as I'm going to buy a wrecked car from a local wrecking yard to do the dash/front spindle swap I have planned.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: 1BadBird on August 25, 2007, 09:46:21 PM
DMC24guy, the a/c compressor pulley isn't under a load when the a/c is off. The pulley basically just freewheels untill you turn the a/c on. That engages the coils inside the pulley which inturn, turn the compressor creating added drag on the belt. Hope that helps
John
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: Billyf17 on August 25, 2007, 09:51:30 PM
Don't cover the problem with the dressing...it will come back. Just get a new belt.......its like 20 bux most. You can use the dressing to diagnose the noise...but if it turns out to be the belt, just replace it.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 25, 2007, 10:51:28 PM
Well, just replaced the belt. Still chirping. Now what should my next move be...or should I say...my next purchase? I've read the article on Clutch replacement over on NATO, but it involves removal of the Compressor...meaning...losing my R12...which I'm trying to avoid.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: Masejoer on August 25, 2007, 11:09:38 PM
As for the R-12 availability thing, about a year ago I had an a/c repair guy tell me that I should keep with R12 (and that it was the exact same stuff used in the 80's)...I went with r134 anyways when I rebuild the a/c system. Don't remember who I recently talked to, but again the consensus was that I should have stayed with an r-12 recharge after all the new parts. Talking with people in the field is the only reference I have to the availability of true r12. Don't know much more than that, and I don't care really as long as it isn't 100 degrees in the car.
The odd thing I have is that when the car's running with no a/c, the temp gauge hangs out around the middle where always when I have the a/c on (afternoons, when sitting in traffic in the heat), the gauge barely reads "C"old. Even true after going back to a mechanical fan after my Mark8 one died 2 days ago that has been running 100%/14 volts for the last 3 weeks. Kinda weird.
I need a bigger condenser now, it doesn't get cold enough, fast enough for my preference :(
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: JeremyB on August 25, 2007, 11:30:18 PM
Chirping, if you are describing the sound correctly, normally points to the belt. I would check the condition of the belt, and make sure the tensioner is working correctly. Did the belt dressing make absolutely no impact on the sound? How many years/miles on the belt? It is only $13 @Rockauto. I'd probably replace it.
If you are 100% certain the belt drive system is not to blame, the clutch is the next suspect. Unless there are clearance issues, you can remove the clutch on the vehicle. I believe the NATO walk-through is done off the vehicle for clarity.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: softtouch on August 25, 2007, 11:46:24 PM
Check the clutch for a .021-.036" air gap. Maybe the clutch is slipping a little when it engages. There should be shims between the clutch disc and the pulley to adjust this.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: JeremyB on August 25, 2007, 11:47:50 PM
Forgot to mention that. Very important point!
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: Billyf17 on August 25, 2007, 11:51:43 PM
Easiest thing to do now with the new belt installed, is manually add more tension to the A/C tensioner. Since it's backwards to most belt tensioners, (pulls on the inside of the belt rather than push on the outside) I could see some problems there. If the chirping goes away, then start the hunt for a new or better one at least. Of course if nothing changes, then its bigger than the cheap-n-easy stuff.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 26, 2007, 12:07:00 AM
Ok, Jeremy, I replaced the belt on the car with a brand new one and it's still chirping.
2nd of all, How would I check to see if the Tensioner is working "Correctly".
3rd of all, when you say to check the clutch for a .021-.036 "air Gap", what do you mean by that?
Finally, why would I want to Add MORE tension to the belt?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: Billyf17 on August 26, 2007, 12:19:32 AM
If it's a typical 87 TC belt setup, the A/C belt makes a small "triangle". If there isn't enough tension the belt could slip under load (A/C switched on). Adding more tension will eliminate a chirping belt caused by a weak tensioner. The spring in the tensioner could be relaxing. The tensioner could also be loose side to side. My main serp belt failed prematurely multiple times due to excessive side to side play. Side play could cause weak tension also because the tension is being wasted on the arm and not through the belt.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 26, 2007, 12:22:49 AM
How would I go about adding the tension then? When I pull one way on the nut, it breaks loose, and when I go the other way on the nut, the whole tensioner moves, and belt becomes limp. I guess I should also ask...is this tensioner something I can buy at an Autozone type place?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: Billyf17 on August 26, 2007, 12:42:09 AM
Pull on the bolt the way it comes loose but not hard enough to make it come loose. If it comes loose that easily, the pulley might be a source of the chirping.
I just search AAP online. They seem to have new tensioner assemblies. They start at about $60. So check your tensioner the way I described and also without the belt on for side to side play before shelling out that kind of money for something that won't fix the noise.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: 1BadBird on August 26, 2007, 03:06:34 PM
There should be a square hole that a 1/2" ratchet or extention fits into. Use that to add additional tension, I'd be careful when doing that though. I wouldn't loosen the bolt that attaches the whole tensioner to the engine. Just my .02
Afterthought, I don't remember an actual tensioner on my 2.3t, there was an idler pulley though and belt tension when adjusted by either the alternator or the a/c compressor itself. I didn't have a serp belt, I had v-belts.
John
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: softtouch on August 26, 2007, 06:02:35 PM
Clutch air gap adjustment from the '84 shop manual. Probably not the same compressor that you have but the idea is the same.
This first picture shows where the shims are. What I called the clutch disc, they call the hub.
The second picture shows where to check the air gap with a feeler gauge.
I could have shrunk it down, but thought you may be intertested in the rest of the stuff on the page.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: JeremyB on August 26, 2007, 06:52:29 PM
That's the HR980.
softtouch, where did you get the jpg?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 26, 2007, 09:00:12 PM
Ok, using the feeler gauge, I determined the gap between the Hub and mating surface is approx. .047 inches. It was a snug fit.
What does this mean?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: softtouch on August 26, 2007, 10:00:17 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;172156
That's the HR980.
softtouch, where did you get the jpg?
I scanned it from the '84 shop manual for all rear wheel drive FMC cars. It covers compressor models FS-6, HR-980 and 6P148.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: softtouch on August 26, 2007, 10:07:10 PM
Quote from: DMC24guy;172179
Ok, using the feeler gauge, I determined the gap between the Hub and mating surface is approx. .047 inches. It was a snug fit.
What does this mean?
All three of the compressors in the '84 shop manual have a clutch hub to pulley air gap of .021"-.036" .
I do not know what compressor you have but it looks like your air gap is too wide.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 26, 2007, 10:08:03 PM
What should my next step be? Would this gap cause the chirping?
(HR980)
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: softtouch on August 26, 2007, 10:21:10 PM
Quote from: DMC24guy;172192
What should my next step be? Would this gap cause the chirping?
(HR980)
I think this can cause it to chirp. Yes you should reduce the shim thickness. I don't know how thick the shims are. It looks like the tricky part is holding the compressor shaft from turning when you loosen and tighten the nut.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 26, 2007, 10:23:56 PM
What I can't figure out is why it started in the first place...if it is the Gap problem. It never chirped before, and then about 2 months ago, it started. If the gap is too wide....how could it have...grown? Seems a little peculiar to me.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: JeremyB on August 26, 2007, 11:19:35 PM
Quote from: softtouch;172190
I scanned it from the '84 shop manual for all rear wheel drive FMC cars. It covers compressor models FS-6, HR-980 and 6P148.
My '85 manual has tissue thin pages. If you scan it, the page behind bleeds though.
Quote from: DMC24guy
What I can't figure out is why it started in the first place...if it is the Gap problem. It never chirped before, and then about 2 months ago, it started. If the gap is too wide....how could it have...grown? Seems a little peculiar to me.
The air gap may/may not the the source of your problem, but it is out of spec so you need to correct it to rule it out the trade space. Every time the clutch engages, there is a tiny bit of wear. Over years the gap grows. At some point, the clutch's ability to grab will be overwhelmed and slipping will commence.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 26, 2007, 11:22:44 PM
Ok, tomorrow I will attempt to remove one of the Shims and see if that helps any.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 28, 2007, 12:51:48 PM
Well guy, I think I may have found the source of the squeaking. I shot a ton of Wd-40 into the back of the tensioner wheel, turned the A/C on, and the squeak was gone. So, does this mean I don't have to buy the whole tensioner...just the pulley wheel?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: JeremyB on August 28, 2007, 12:53:43 PM
Yup.
As an aside, my HR980 has an air gap of .04x and clutches just fine.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 28, 2007, 01:08:41 PM
There's about 13 different tensioner pulley's on PartsAmerica's website. Which one will work for the A/C belt...or will they all work? It's a little confusing because they say "Right side" and "Left side"....but don't specify if that's sitting in the car, or looking at it from the front?
Just out of curiosity, what on the pulley would chirp and go away when hit with WD-40?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: softtouch on August 28, 2007, 04:21:47 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;172220
My '85 manual has tissue thin pages. If you scan it, the page behind bleeds though.
The air gap may/may not the the source of your problem, but it is out of spec so you need to correct it to rule it out the trade space. Every time the clutch engages, there is a tiny bit of wear. Over years the gap grows. At some point, the clutch's ability to grab will be overwhelmed and slipping will commence.
How do you quote two different people in the same post?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 28, 2007, 04:28:26 PM
Ok guys, now I'm really flummoxed. I put on the new Pulley Wheel, got the belt on, fired up the car and turned on the A/C...
Chirp, Chirp, Chirp!!! It's still making that noise.
While it was running and making this noise, I got the can of WD-40 and shot some directly behind the Pulley wheel where it's mounted. The chirping instantly went away. So, I've pretty much narrowed down the location of this noise, but can't get rid of it! Any ideas on what to try now???
New Wheel: (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/tensionwheel1.jpg)
I don't think it's the Tensioner, as I have already shot some WD-40 directly into it, and the noise remained constant. And with the Bolt in place, no WD-40 could have somehow gotten into the Tensioner via that route. The chirping is coming from the Pulley wheel assembly, but I don't know what to try now.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: softtouch on August 28, 2007, 04:53:29 PM
Does the pulley have some wobble that causes it to rub?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 28, 2007, 05:06:20 PM
I checked for play, but couldn't really detect any. While running, I noticed a Slight...almost imperceptible...movement in the Pulley, but nothing major.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: softtouch on August 28, 2007, 05:53:52 PM
Put your feeler gauge between the mounting bracket and the pulley. Push on the pulley and see if you can pinch the gauge.
Can you see a spot were the pulley may have been rubbing on the mounting bracket?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 28, 2007, 06:33:13 PM
I couldn't accurately use the feeler gauge because the Pulley itself is Concave, which resulted in the gauge having to be bent slightly to fit it into the mounting bracket area.
As for the Pulley itself, I examined it and noticed a faint ring of grease around the metal bushing. Very thin, but I could see it.
Also, I tightened down the pulley without the belt on, and grabbed it to see if I could move it straight up and down. I did noticed there was a very small amount of up and down play. Very slight, but it was there.
(I suppose now would be the time to ask if any Junkyard cars have the same Tensioner Assembly that I could use. I'm not quite ready to shell out $60 for a new setup)
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 28, 2007, 09:14:19 PM
Forget the pulley....Spray your WD40 inside the tensioner assembly...
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 28, 2007, 11:11:21 PM
I've already sprayed it on the top of the Assembly...where that "crack" is between the part that actually moves, and the part that is bolted to the frame....it didn't make any difference.
Like I said, I sprayed it directly behind the Pulley...and the noise goes away temporarily. How could the WD-40 seep into the Tensioner?
(I'm going to the Junkyard Tomorrow...can anyone give me a reliable list of cars that have the same A/C belt Tensioner assembly?)
I'll take off the whole assembly and shoot the entire thing with the WD-40...but...I need to know what size nut is holding the thing to the body.
EDIT: Someone over at NATO suggested placing a thin Washer between the Tensioner and the Pulley. Is this advisable?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: mywifeskitty on August 29, 2007, 10:13:44 AM
i love threads like this.... it makes me feel good that the 8,000 dollars i just spent going to tech school might have paid off... or not :)
tensioner pulleys suck.... i had the same problem you do and i bought a new tensioner w/pulley from carquest to fix it ($60 my cost... ouch freakin 91 motor)... anyway, believe it or not, it didn't fix it.. that's because even though i bought it from a quality place, my new tensioner had the same problem as my old one, the base of the pulley bolting surface was not true... so i took the tensioner back off, swapped it out with another new one, and voila, no more chirping..... sometimes when you buy new parts, they can be defective too....... the first thing i'd do is take the pulley back off, sand down the mating surface on the tensioner til the contact point is smooth, then reinstall.... see if that helps, if not, try exchanging the pulley under a defect warranty..... install the new, new one... if it still chirps, even though the tension part of the assembly seems ok, i'd try to buy the whole assembly.... if that doesn't do it..... well, that's the problem with diagnosing noises on the internet :)
the noise i was hearing is like when brake pads squeel.... it's not the pad itself that's noisy, but where the back of the pad hits the caliper... i think that's why the wd-40 temporarily fixes your noise, it masks the harmonics of the pulley surface imperfection... but then again, what do i know????
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: ipsd on August 29, 2007, 10:19:40 AM
Kinda sounds like you need a new bearing in the pulley. The tensioner arm part has spring inside to hold tension on the belt that is all. Unless the tow pieces are rubbing I don't see them making the noise. What makes me think bearing is when you spray WD on it the noise goes away. I bet if you took the belt of and turn the pulley by hand your could feel the resistance in it. If the pulley is plastic most are made so you have to replace the whole unit. If it is a metal one then you should be able to drive out the bearing with a socket and tap in the new one. The ones I replaced on my 94 cost me $8 per bearing.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 29, 2007, 11:18:53 AM
Ok, Here's exactly what I got:
This is the back of the Pulley. You can see the "Mating" surface is smooth. It's that Round metal bushing in the center. (Is this the "Bearing" you're referring to? If so, wouldn't I have to find one that has a smaller inside diameter?) (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/100_0751.jpg)
This is the Bolt and saucer looking thing that go into the front of the Pulley and tighten it to the Tensioner. (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/100_0752.jpg)
These last two shots are of the part of the tensioner which the pulley slips onto. What part do I need to sand down? And should I try using a washer first? (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/100_0753.jpg) (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/100_0754.jpg)
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: ipsd on August 29, 2007, 04:28:25 PM
That inner metal part is part of the bearing. The inner metal ring and the outer metal ring(covered by plastic) are both part of the bearing. Those black rubber pieces are the seals that keep the grease inside the bearing. With it being plastic you will have to replace the pulley. Goto the parts store they should have them there. Have the parts guy pull many so you can find one that is metal that is the same size as the one you have. Almost all of them use the same bearing.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 29, 2007, 04:39:50 PM
But the pulley is BRAND new. The old one I had on there was also plastic, and it never squeaked until about 2 months ago. Why would buying a new metal pulley stop the squeak?
What I'm trying to say is, since the pulley I have on there right now is new, why would it squeak? And why would a metal one not make that noise? I'm starting to think it may be the stud that the Pulley rests on that's causing this. After all, why would a brand new pulley make the same noise???
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: ipsd on August 29, 2007, 10:13:53 PM
Because the brand new pulley is JUNK! It was made wrong or something else is messed up inside the bearing. Maybe the company forgot to grease it before it got boxed. WD makes it stop but WD runs out of there about as fast as you spray it.Really sounds like low or no lube in there. I've seen alot of bad parts right out of the box. I do work at a parts store.Go into any parts store and have them test a whole bunch of TFI modules I bet money that 1-2 of those brand new ones are toast. The metal one isn't going to stop the squeaking. But it will make it cheaper in the long run. Instead of buying a new pulley each time The metal ones you can replace the bearing witch is cheaper than the whole unit. So is there any sort of extra resistance when you roll the pulley buy hand? Those sealed bearings suck no way to add grease with out breaking those seals. So clean it up take it back an get them to warranty it out. What brand is the part you have? Maybe find another parts store to buy one from. Also why would a perfectly good bolt and washer go bad unless they were hit and bent or where rubbing on the spinning parts. If you look at the Stud part and the washer part. See how they are shaped alike. That is to stop thing from getting into the plastic seals. Just like a Hub Assembly bearing on the newer cars the bad ones squeak and the good one don't.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 29, 2007, 10:59:25 PM
Can anyone supply me with a location that I can actually purchase one of these metal pulleys? I've searched on Checker Auto and Autozone's websites and can't locate one.
So, there is no way I can open up the bearing I have on my current pulley and inject it with grease?
Is this (http://"http://www.autozone.com/R,APP561321/vehicleId,1011801/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,2751/partType,00442/shopping/partProductDetail.htm") metal?
This (http://"http://www.autozone.com/R,APP561260/vehicleId,1011801/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,2751/partType,00442/shopping/partProductDetail.htm") one looks like metal, but I don't know if it will fit:
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: ipsd on August 29, 2007, 11:28:22 PM
The best way to find one of the metal ones is to head to the parts store and have the guy find one in metal that is the same size as yours or one that is very close in diameter. Maybe you could very carefully drill a small hole in the plastic and use a Grease injector needle to grease it. If is doesn't have any grease in there and that makes it sound better that is still a band-aid fix. Those little metal balls in side there along with those metal rings that are shaped to the balls are most likely ground up and the metal flakes will just float around in there and cause it to wear faster than normal. I'll see if I can find you a metal one and give you the gates brand part number for it. Like I said it might not be the same size around but it will be close. My store stocks almost the hole line of gates pulleys. I know gates has metal and plastic ones.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 29, 2007, 11:40:19 PM
That would be great if you could find one! I would really appreciate it.
(What's to say that a metal one would be less likely to be "shred up" inside?)
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 29, 2007, 11:44:13 PM
Quote from: DMC24guy;173222
Can anyone supply me with a location that I can actually purchase one of these metal pulleys? I've searched on Checker Auto and Autozone's websites and can't locate one.
So, there is no way I can open up the bearing I have on my current pulley and inject it with grease?
Is this (http://"http://www.autozone.com/R,APP561321/vehicleId,1011801/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,2751/partType,00442/shopping/partProductDetail.htm") metal?
This (http://"http://www.autozone.com/R,APP561260/vehicleId,1011801/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,2751/partType,00442/shopping/partProductDetail.htm") one looks like metal, but I don't know if it will fit:
I've never seen a metal ribbed idler pulley, even the factory ones were plastic...
RU absolutely sure it's the pulley, and not the WD40 getting on the belt, or compressor that is stopping the noise???
If the noise is EXACTLY the same as with the old one, I don't see how it would be the idler bearing... IF it spins smoothly by hand, look somewhere else for your noise...
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 29, 2007, 11:49:32 PM
It's coming from that same area. I already replaced the belt. When I spray the WD-40, it's straight into the back of that Pulley. None gets on the belt, and none gets anywhere near the Compressor. When I spray behind it, the noise goes away. And yes...the noise is the same.
When I spin it by hand, it spins maybe 3 times and stops. It doesn't freely spin and spin and keep going. There is some friction I can feel. 3-4 turns before it stops at the most.
Does that help any?
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: ipsd on August 30, 2007, 12:05:40 AM
Oh yeah those links don't work.Does the bearing feel smooth or rough and bumpy a little. The ones that I have seen the metal one you can see the whole bearing all the away out to the edge of the outer race. It is a pressed fit. send me your Phone number I'll call you from work. I work 10a-7p central time. When would be a good time to call you with the info. Then work even pays to call you. Ah the bennies I get some time. LOL I'm helping a potential customer right! LOL
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 30, 2007, 12:12:56 AM
No...No phone numbers. I apologize....I have my reasons. Don't worry, I won't be making any purchases until Friday...payday....So I can wait for a response over the net.
Sorry to seem so....mysterious.
Is it possible the stud is simply worn out allowing for a little bit of play, and therefore cause the squeak? Perhaps I should just buy a new Tensioner assembly all together.
And to answer a previous question, the Pulley feels like it has a little bit of friction on it. When I spin it by hand, it only spins 3-4 times before stopping. It doesn't keep going. But...if the stud was worn...wouldn't it spin more freely....??
I'm really at a loss.
(Oh, I did sand the base of the Stud where the pulley sits...it didn't help)
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: CougarSE on August 30, 2007, 07:58:55 AM
Most new out of the box Idler pulley's wont even free spine one revolution. The seals and grease prevent this.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 30, 2007, 08:10:33 AM
Prolly spins now, cause all that WD40 washed the grease out of the bearing...
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: ipsd on August 30, 2007, 03:18:45 PM
The only groved metal one I can find is one for 8 groove belt. Also all of them reguardless didn't free spin a full revolution. They all only made it 1/4-3/4 of a spin. Also all of them had the same China made bearing in them.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: JeremyB on August 30, 2007, 06:31:00 PM
As said several times before, exchange your old pulley for a new one. It is defective. What brand is it?
If you have the same luck with a few more pulleys I'd be apt to place a small washer between the tensioner pulley and pulley bearing. This will solve the problem, at the expense of belt misalignment.
Quote from: softtouch
How do you quote two different people in the same post?
To the right of the "Quote" button lies the "Multi-Quote" button. If you want to quote more than one person, click the Multi-Quote button on their posts, then click Reply. Their quotes will be in the message body. When you click on the Multi-Quote button, it will turn red and the "+" will change to "-", indicating that you can click it again to remove them from the people you want to quote.
I forget to do it the easy was most of the time and just do it manually. You can tell if it was done manually because the "View Post" button is absent by the quoted person's name.
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: ZondaC12 on August 30, 2007, 06:37:47 PM
defnitely br0 slam that clucka on the counter!!!
naw j/k theyll take it back tho, they should. it aint electronic, ad usually thats the only time they dont take returns
Title: Project Elimination: The Mysterious Underhood Chirping
Post by: DMC24guy on August 30, 2007, 10:38:49 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;173434
If you have the same luck with a few more pulleys I'd be apt to place a small washer between the tensioner pulley and pulley bearing. This will solve the problem, at the expense of belt misalignment.
So, put a washer on the stud first, then put the pulley on?