Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Suspension/Steering => Topic started by: 88CabernetKitty on August 14, 2007, 11:08:44 PM

Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on August 14, 2007, 11:08:44 PM
[COLOR="DarkRed"][COLOR="DarkRed"]:cougarsmily:The Master Cylinder was bench bled....TWICE!!!:shoothead  The brakes _STILL_ will not pump up!:mad: 

Back ground: this car had new rear cylinders, springs, shoes and front pads installed about this time last year. Brakes worked fine until Master Cylinder recently started leaking into Power Booster. That's why the replacement.

Has anyone else ran into a problem like this before?:confused: [/COLOR]

I've had _no_ luck finding the *correct* proportioning valve for my poor Kitty. Anyone know where I can get a hold of a *NEW* one? I really don't want to do the salvage yard thing for BRAKE parts. Ya know?

Any and all help will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Julie [/COLOR][COLOR="Red"]@[/COLOR][COLOR="SeaGreen"]};-[/COLOR]
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: jncocowboyx on August 14, 2007, 11:32:38 PM
perhaps the pushrod in the booster isn't in the m/c like it should be?
Title: RE: Replacement booster-m/c
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on August 15, 2007, 12:06:00 AM
Quote from: jncocowboyx;169057
perhaps the pushrod in the booster isn't in the m/c like it should be?


Thank you so much for the quick response, jncocowboy! ;)  I'm sorry I failed to include that the booster-m/c were sold as a _single_ unit. I know that maybe the factory messed up? But unlikely???????


The EDIT is because this problem has been driving ME crazy ever since this morning and it's late. My mind is in the same shape as my poor Kittie's Brakes right now. Sorry.
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: 32VFoxBird on August 15, 2007, 01:01:10 AM
is the booster and master cylinder new? the pedal goes to the floor with minimal resistance? what procedure di you use when bench bleeding?
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: jncocowboyx on August 15, 2007, 05:02:54 AM
it's not uncommon to get new, defective parts.
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: the_intimidator03 on August 15, 2007, 06:22:04 AM
also another thought if you have not checked... is your rubber hoses. they can swell and let fluid go one way and hold it from returning efficiently thus not causing the M/C to return.  just a simple thought
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: vinnietbird on August 15, 2007, 07:11:38 AM
Bleed the brakes at the wheels again.Maybe you just have air in the system.
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on August 15, 2007, 01:45:32 PM
Quote from: 32VFoxBird;169081
is the booster and master cylinder new? the pedal goes to the floor with minimal resistance? what procedure di you use when bench bleeding?


TYVM for your response, 32VFoxBird.

Yes, the booster and m/c are new. Yes, the pedal goes to the floor with _NO_ resistance. M/C was bench bled by the Standard Method. That is, it was backfilled until no air or bubbles remained in it.
Title: Yep,
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on August 15, 2007, 01:49:09 PM
Quote from: jncocowboyx;169103
it's not uncommon to get new, defective parts.


You're correct. ;) That is in deed the case. :mad:
Title: Hoses
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on August 15, 2007, 01:50:26 PM
Quote from: the_intimidator03;169107
also another thought if you have not checked... is your rubber hoses. they can swell and let fluid go one way and hold it from returning efficiently thus not causing the M/C to return.  just a simple thought


TYVM for your response, intimidator.

Good idea, but all the hoses are new. ;)
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: Kitz Kat on August 15, 2007, 01:52:24 PM
You do have vacume at the booster?Do you have any kind of brakes?
Title: Bleeding Brakes again
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on August 15, 2007, 01:53:49 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;169109
Bleed the brakes at the wheels again.Maybe you just have air in the system.


TYVM for your response, vinniebird.

We bled them at least SIX+ ...1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6+... times. :) I lost count..............
Title: Vacuum
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on August 15, 2007, 02:01:08 PM
Quote from: kitzdnm;169216
You do have vacume at the booster?Do you have any kind of brakes?


TYVM for your response, kitzdnm.

Not sure on what kind of vacuum is at the booster. No pedal resistance at all can be felt upon depression. Ergo, probably not much vacuum there. NO kind of brakes at all. (Just the Emergency.)
Title: What I've decided:
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on August 15, 2007, 02:29:03 PM
:cougarsmily: [COLOR="DarkRed"] I've decided that Advanced Auto Parts is going to get their Brake Booster/Master Cylinder assembly BACK!!!!:brick:

I already have another on order from O'Reilly's. :)

Advanced Corporate is going to get an EXTREMEMLY incisive and scathing :flame: e-mail from me. :mad:

This is the SECOND time in three weeks that I've had to return a part to Advanced Auto Parts. The first one was the Starter Solenoid for my 89 Full Sized Bronco 4x4. Advanced Auto Parts have co[COLOR="Green"]$[/COLOR]t themselves a LOT of money by offering substandard parts. My friend, who is doing the work on my vehicles for me, needs a 318 for his 83 Dodge pick-up. He WAS going to buy it from Advanced. Between the two of us, we own FIVE (5) vehicles!

So, I thank you all [COLOR="Red"]@[/COLOR][COLOR="Green"]};-[/COLOR] for your responses to this dilemma. BUT(T):shakeass: suggestions of where I could get that proportioning valve that I mentioned in my original post would be greatly appreciated, too. ;) @[/COLOR][COLOR="Green"]};-[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]If I get the time, I'll try to keep you updated as to the progress being made on my :cougarsmily: Cabernet Red Kitty  . ;)

The Blood Bay Mare
Title: Update.............
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on September 02, 2007, 03:53:09 PM
:cougarsmily: [COLOR="DarkRed"][/COLOR]Hi All,

Ok, we have been through 7734 and back with this problem. We have decided that the Proportioning Valve IS in deed the problem!!! [COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"][/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][/COLOR] I've attached pictures of it so you can see what it looks like since I don't know if Mercury used more than one type on these cars or not.

Now, I've BEEN to Lincoln/Mercury near where I live and they looked to see if ANY dealership in the WHOLE of the USA had a new Proportioning Valve. NO SUCH LUCK!!! [COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"][/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][/COLOR] However, they did tell me that a LOT of parts from Cougars, Firebirds and Mustangs around the years that my 88 was built are interchangable. (At present, I can't recall the exact years they said. Sorry.)

The "salvage yards" here in Kansas City are not very helpful. They crush stuff that is only just a few years old!!!:mad:

So, I'm posting pix of this thing in hopes that you guys/gals can help me locate at least one GOOD used Proportioning Valve SOMEWHERE. I am now at the point of desparation![COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"][/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][/COLOR]
I have a LOT of [COLOR="Green"]money[/COLOR] tied up in this car to make it GO. Now it needs to [COLOR="Red"]STOP[/COLOR]!!! It also has an ENORMOUS amount of sentimental value to me. ***It belonged to my late husband.

I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get this part!!! If you can help me PLEASE let me know. Thank you in advance. [COLOR="Red"]@[/COLOR][COLOR="SeaGreen"]};--[/COLOR]
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: Dansbirds on September 02, 2007, 05:05:59 PM
What brought you to the conclusion of the prop valve? Have replaced numerous brake components on all my birds here(65's thru 04) and never changed one. Not saying it couldnt be bad but I would agree with Vinnie on this one and re-bleed them, it sounds as though you still have air in the system. For the hell of it try this, open all the bleeder screws and let it gravity bleed overnight, then bleed them in the am and see where you are. I replaced a 8 inch brake hose on one of mine and that was what it took to finally get it right.
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on September 02, 2007, 05:09:27 PM
Quote from: Dansbirds;173972
What brought you to the conclusion of the prop valve? Have replaced numerous brake components on all my birds here(65's thru 04) and never changed one. Not saying it couldnt be bad but I would agree with Vinnie on this one and re-bleed them, it sounds as though you still have air in the system. For the hell of it try this, open all the bleeder screws and let it gravity bleed overnight, then bleed them in the am and see where you are. I replaced a 8 inch brake hose on one of mine and that was what it took to finally get it right.


The threads are stripped out of one of the connecting holes and it leaks like a sieve!

EDIT: It was re-threaded & it's "holding" now, but we still do NOT trust it.
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: thundr306 on September 02, 2007, 07:08:43 PM
I posted on your other post, but is that a 4 port (2 in and 2 out) or a 5 port(2 in and 3 out)? I have a few around here.
Jim
Title: How many?
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on September 03, 2007, 11:05:46 AM
Quote from: thundr306;173999
I posted on your other post, but is that a 4 port (2 in and 2 out) or a 5 port(2 in and 3 out)? I have a few around here.
Jim


THANK YOU, Jim. Let's see if you turn out to be my 'saviour'? LOL!

It's a "2 in and 2 out".

Sorry those pix are so bad...I had to use my over-glorified webcam to take them. It's the only digital cam in the house!

Question(s) about the ones you have around there: They haven't been allowed to dry out, have they? I've been told that if they dry out the seals in them can shrink/rot???...and/or they could rust inside??? Or are yours all still on sealed systems?
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: thundr306 on September 03, 2007, 02:30:31 PM
I haven't heard about drying out or rusting. All I can tell you is that I removed them less than 6 months ago and they have been on my shelf in the garage. Here are some pics:

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/thundr306/parts%20for%20sale/DSC03006.jpg)

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/thundr306/parts%20for%20sale/DSC03005.jpg)
Title: YAY! THAT's the Animal
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on September 03, 2007, 03:22:50 PM
Quote from: thundr306;174145
I haven't heard about drying out or rusting. All I can tell you is that I removed them less than 6 months ago and they have been on my shelf in the garage.


THAT looks exactly like what I need!:cool:

I'm curious: What did it come off of and what was the condition of the brake system of the car it came from?:confused:

BTW: At any time during our discussion, you have my permission to download my vCard so we might conduct business in private.;)
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: thundr306 on September 03, 2007, 03:39:25 PM
pm sent
Title: PM Relied to
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on September 03, 2007, 03:49:17 PM
Quote from: thundr306;174161
pm sent


THANK YOU soooooo much! :grinno:

Julie [COLOR="Red"]@[/COLOR][COLOR="Green"]};--[/COLOR]
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: softtouch on September 03, 2007, 05:13:45 PM
Are you sure the rear brake shoes are adjusted properly?
On my '84 I have to adjust them occasionaly as the auto-adjusters don't work anymore.
As the shoes wear the pedal gets lower.

If the new shoes were not adjusted you can have too much clearance between the shoes and the drum.
Title: Rear Brake Adjustment
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on September 03, 2007, 06:15:10 PM
Quote from: softtouch;174174
Are you sure the rear brake shoes are adjusted properly?
On my '84 I have to adjust them occasionaly as the auto-adjusters don't work anymore.
As the shoes wear the pedal gets lower.

If the new shoes were not adjusted you can have too much clearance between the shoes and the drum.


Thank you for your input, softie. But the rear brakes are adjusted about as tight as practically possible. After a GOOD (NON-Leaky) Proportioning Valve is installed they'll most likely need to be backed off a bit? I'm guessing that you didn't get a close peek at what lead up to the present point:confused: ;)

Thanx again,
Julie [COLOR="Red"]@[/COLOR][COLOR="SeaGreen"]};--[/COLOR]
Title: Update!!!
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on September 16, 2007, 08:39:15 PM
Well, I bought that proportioning valve off of thundr306 (see posted pix in our previous posts). As it turns out, the ports on it are larger than those on the original valve and, therefore, what my brake lines are. Evidently it came off a car with a V8 in it. Mine is a V6. SO, the one I got from thundr is going to be filled with brake fluid, capped and stored until such time that I absolutely have to have new brake lines ran. This way the new lines can be made to match the valve I got from thundr.

Even though the valve, itself, from thundr was a bit of a disappointment, his price was reasonable and he did a GREAT job in getting it to me quite expeditiously.

:cougarsmily: [COLOR="DarkRed"]In the mean time, the original valve is "holding" but not exactly trustworthy? THEREFORE, I'm STILL in the market for a good proportioning valve from a V6 equipped 88 Cougar or T-Bird. If anyone out there has any more ideas I'm open to see what you have in mind. I'd appreciate any and all help anyone may be able to give me in furthering my goal of getting my Cat road worthy once again.

While I'm waiting to find such a proportioning valve, the rest of the system is going to get gone through AGAIN with a fine toothed comb to find out why the pedal still isn't as high as it should be and why it's still too spongy to be able to do an emergency stop with.

There you have it. The latest chapter in the life of my poor Cabernet Kitty.[/COLOR] :cougarsmily:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Julie[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]@[/COLOR][COLOR="Green"]};--[/COLOR]
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: thundr306 on September 16, 2007, 09:09:22 PM
Julie, I am hoping that you are not saying that I misrepresented the part. Here is a quote from our pm's

 "Originally Posted by thundr306
I can't be exactly sure what it came off. Either a Mustang or Thunderbird. I have had a few parts cars here and the parts all get put together. Honestly, I probably only drove one. I am not looking for alot of money, so it's up to you.
Jim

I don't remember any mention of port size/engine size. If you are unhappy with the way the sale went, pm me and we can work something out.

Jim
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on September 16, 2007, 09:25:40 PM
Quote from: thundr306;176703
Julie, I am hoping that you are not saying that I misrepresented the part. Here is a quote from our pm's

 "Originally Posted by thundr306
I can't be exactly sure what it came off. Either a Mustang or Thunderbird. I have had a few parts cars here and the parts all get put together. Honestly, I probably only drove one. I am not looking for alot of money, so it's up to you.
Jim

I don't remember any mention of port size/engine size. If you are unhappy with the way the sale went, pm me and we can work something out.

Jim


OOOOOH, NOOOOOOO!!!!!!! NOT at all!!! [COLOR="DarkRed"]I'm so sorry I gave that impression.  Hey, everyone can make a mis-judgement. Who knew they made these things with TWO different sizes of ports??????? Did YOU? I didn't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I SERIOUSLY, doubt you would have purposely sent me the wrong part if you had the CORRECT info!

And besides, hey, It's NOT your fault that Murphy never met ME!!! I've got HIM beat by a LONG shot!!!!!

I figured that I'd find out about the part when it got here and that's what happened. Simple as that. NO biggie,,,at least to ME!!! DAYMB!!! I'm so sorry I gave you and possibly others the WRONG impression!!! I'm going to leave these posts as they are to prove the mis-understanding. OK?

Julie[/COLOR] [COLOR="red"]@[/COLOR][COLOR="Green"]};--[/COLOR]

Additional info: BTW: I intend to KEEP the part, as I stated in the latest "Update". I'm perfectly happy with your service, Jim. I can't recall mentioning Engine Size either = MY MISTAKE!!!!! NOT yours!

More info for Jim: PM Sent... Yes, I'd do business with you again!
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: JeremyB on September 16, 2007, 09:36:38 PM
Why not put a Wilwood prop valve in?

The Mustang/Thunderbird prop valves suck.
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on September 16, 2007, 09:44:57 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;176712
Why not put a Wilwood prop valve in?

The Mustang/Thunderbird prop valves suck.


The aftermarket people only make "generic" ones for racing purposes only.  I need the one I posted the pix of...for a V6.....

Thank you for the idea though... I'll still check out Wilwood since it's something I've not heard of before. THX again.

Julie @};--
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: JeremyB on September 16, 2007, 10:34:44 PM
The Wilwood valve has a 3/16" double flare inlet/outlet (It actually has  a 1/8" NPT inlet, but they give you 2 adapters.) I believe the rear brake lines on non TC cars are 3/16". You need to buy a 3/16" female/female double union for the remaining front brake line.

I'll be installing one on my vehicle in the next few weeks.
Title: THX 4 the info
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on September 16, 2007, 10:52:17 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;176720
The Wilwood valve has a 3/16" double flare inlet/outlet (It actually has  a 1/8" NPT inlet, but they give you 2 adapters.) I believe the rear brake lines on non TC cars are 3/16". You need to buy a 3/16" female/female double union for the remaining front brake line.

I'll be installing one on my vehicle in the next few weeks.


Thank you again for this new info....

Of course at this point, I need all the help I can get................ LOL!

Julie @};-
Title: Replaced Power Booster/Master Cylinder in 88 Cougar 6-banger
Post by: vinnietbird on September 17, 2007, 07:09:12 AM
Let me know this evening if you found one yet.If not,I think I can get one for you.Probably run you about $15.00 shipped.
Title: THX, vinnie, for the offer
Post by: 88CabernetKitty on September 17, 2007, 01:22:30 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;176759
Let me know this evening if you found one yet.If not,I think I can get one for you.Probably run you about $15.00 shipped.


However, I've got to wait to see what my friend who's doing the work has to say next. When he told me about the "problem" with the port size, he also said that he was going to start all over again with going through the whole brake system with a find toothed comb to see if/what he may have missed the first times. He plans on getting started again this coming weekend. So there's no hurry. ;)

Julie @};-