This is it. The real deal, an NOS Ford Motorsports (FMS) rear ducktail spoiler for 87-88 T-Birds. I bought this spoiler as the last known one in Ford's inventory, new in the box. It has NEVER been mounted to a car. I had it sealer primed to protect it. NO damage. Simply prep, paint, and install. 100% perfect. The nicest FMS spoiler left not on a car. VERY rare.
$500 plus shipping.
In 1 week it goes to evilbay for the highest bidder.
Huh? Giving yourself competition?
That's a spicy meatball.
Last one sold on eBay in 2005 for $571 plus $98 shipping (that I saw anyways) and it wasn't NOS.
Not trying to stir up shiznit here, just trying to make sure nobody buys a spoiler that won't fit on the butt of their car:
In your ABM-1 thread you say this about the spoiler:
...and this:
Yet in this thread you advertise the ducktail spoiler
Now, I'm no spoiler expert, but don't the FMS spoilers hug the car's butts very closely, and aren't they two completely different butts? So in the name of clarity, and in the hopes of preventing somebody from dropping $500 on a spoiler that won't fit their car, which FMS ducktail spoiler are you selling - the 83-86 version or the 87-88 version?
*EDIT* $571 plus a hundred bucks shipping, just for the spoiler??? Now I REALLY wish I had salvaged that complete FMS body kit (spoiler, side skirts, grille, bumper cover) from that '86 'Bird I got my center console "tray" from in that junk yard a few years ago...
My bad, it should read 87-88, I was typing too fast. It's THIS spoiler:
(http://www.turbotbird.com/pics/birds/CpGs_878TCrq.jpg)
Only new and never installed. 87-88 only.
I found one of those spoilers on an '86 at the boneyard. It fit the car very well.
There was a different version for the '86 - it looked like the one Mike's selling, but was made for the '83-'86. It was one of those that I left to rot in a boneyard, too. me. me to hell.
Carm, I remember when you posted pictures of that car.
I had no idea they made a different one; I stand corrected.
I was able to score the side skirts and spoiler (all mint) from the '86. Those parts now belong to another forum member.
The car I took them from hit the crusher just a few months later.
The 83-86 version is easy sauce to find compared to the 87-88. The 83-86's usually go for $300-$500, the 87-88's go for $400-$750.
What is the Ford part number?
Brent
:cougarsmily:
PM sent
*SALE PENDING*
m
SOLD
Thank You
Mike,
I would like to know for my own records what the part number is on this “NOS Ford Motorsports” rear spoiler that you offered for sale.
According to my records, Ford Motorsport never offered a rear spoiler for the 1987-88 birds, or body kit for that matter, FMS only listed them for the 1983-’86 cars.
When was it that you purchased this spoiler? Was it directly from FMS?
Thank you in advance for your response.
Brent
:cougarsmily:
Brent,
I will get you the part # when I pack it up. I bought it in 2005 from a Ford Dealership parts broker. He bought out all E-series part #s from the FMS catalogs, and this was the last one of the spoilers. Further checking directly with Ford Racing and through Ford dealer stock showed that claim to be correct.
I bought it with the intention of reproducing them, but Ford still owns the rights, and it would cost over $500 per spoiler to make.
Thank you.
I am very curious to know the part number as I do not have a listing for it anywhere.
A picture of the box with the part number on it would be greatly appreciated.
Reproducing the spoiler and selling it shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't mention Ford Motorsport or their original part number anywhere. I would think you could advertise it as a reproduction of a discontinued spoiler from a well known supplier and you would be safe. Especially since the original maker is no longer in business.
Brent
:cougarsmily:
EASY! carm. too much planet of the apes...lol:hick:
Have you had a chance to get the part number or pictures yet?
Brent
:cougarsmily:
Yes, it's in the garage right now being packed up to ship tomorrow. I'll have them up in an hour or so...
Didn't get any pics before the sun set, but I got the part #.
M-44210-A621
44210 is Ford's base # for wings. A621 must be the specific part #. That 6 *might* be a 0 though.
Please supply any detailed pictures that you can of the box with the part number and the spoiler before you ship it.
I would really like to get this spoiler documented before it goes away.
Thanks
Brent
:cougarsmily:
Brent,
The box was destroyed during shipment, but I saved the flap. I have *no* idea where the bleep that flap is now, but if I ever find it I'll take it too. I'll take a good couple of shots before packing, and I have the shots supplied to me from the inventory guy I bought it off of (Which also might include the box).
Mike,
So is there a part number molded into the spoiler itself? Is that where you got the part number from?
Brent
:cougarsmily:
The part # is molded in on the bottom, and hand written on the side, and on the box flap that's floating around. It has a few other hand-written markings too.
Here you go. And that 6 is definitely a 6 in the handwriting. The 44210 is the only thing embedded.
Last 3. I'll be packing/shipping it tomorrow (bought a custom box for the darn thing) so if you want any more pics please ask before I do it.
Thanks for the pictures. I take it that you couldn't find the end flap?
I see the part number that was hand written, but you also said it was molded into the spoiler as well. Do you have a picture of that?
May I ask what makes you think that it is an '87-'88 specific spoiler and not the '83-'86 spoiler?
Brent
:cougarsmily:
I thouight one fit the range of years?
See the endcaps of the spoiler. It has a "dip" where the 87-88 trunk line is. (The above shot) Then it flows down exactly on the bodyline. (The side shot, remember this thing has 1.5" studs on it, so it drop it down 1.5") It wouldn't physically fit an 83-86 as their rear body area is, for lack of a better term, "fatter" there. If you closed the trunk the endcaps would smash the top of the 1/4 panels.
I have the endcaps from the Kaminari 83-86 wing, I'll hold those up to Layla to show you what I'm talking about.
Here are some pics of an original Kaminari 83-86 3-piece spoiler sitting on Layla (88) to show you what I mean. The decklids are the same width themselves, but the 1/4's at the ends of the car are far different. The 83-86 is "fatter" and straighter. The 87-88 tucks "in" at the corners.
That last picture above ^^^ shows why the 87-88 FMS would smack the 1/4's when closed. Here's 2 more with the Kaminari and one with the Xenon 1-piece on on my 87 Sport.
See the "curve" built into the Kaminari on that side-on shot for the curve in the decklid, not flat?
Mike,
I'm sorry, but you have not convinced me that the spoiler you have is an '87-'88 specific Ford Motorsport spoiler and the #1 reason is the part number.
Ford Motorsport only listed one spoiler in all of the years it was listed in their catalogs (1987-1990). It was listed as '83-'86 model specific and the part number was M-44210-A621. The same part number on yours.
I have studied the pictures in my Spoilers Plus brochure (the company that produced them for Ford) and I am certain that the spoiler they have pictured on the '83-'86 cars is same one installed on '87-'88 cars. It may have been originally designed to fit the early cars, but I think it will fit the later cars as well.
The company even touted their product as being made from a "... combination of Nylon and Urethane...offering the ultimate in flexability..." This probably made it flexible enough at the three mounting points to conform to the differences between the two bodies.
I have never heard of a Ford Motorsport '87-'88 specific spoiler before until you had mentioned it. Can you show any documentation to back this up statement?
Brent
:cougarsmily:
That's what I was told by the Ford dealer selling it (closing their doors, in the midwest).
Just curious, is that gray the sealer prime you had done to protect it? I take it was all orange before the sealer?
You mean you just sold a spoiler for $500 claiming it was an extremely rare 87-88 spoiler based solely on what a Ford parts dept guy from a bankrupt dealership told you, without checking out those claims first? You sold a spoiler that you're not even 100% sure exists?
Oh, Michael, Michael, Michael...
Cougars 2 go - The FMS spoiler is the yellow/gray one. It's molded in yellow urethane and I had the gray sprayed on 2-3 years ago. The red/gray one is a used Kaminari 3-piece 83-86 spoiler. It was painted red when I got it.
Carm - I sold a spoiler that to the best of my knowledge was a 87/88 only piece. I wish BCA would have started all of this BEFORE it sold. It doesn't matter, as we still can't prove one way or another, and even if it is *just* a 83-86 one, as I previously mentioned, "Last one sold on eBay in 2005 for $571 plus $98 shipping (that I saw anyways) and it wasn't NOS" so $500 for the NOS one is still MORE then fair.
BCA - I really wish you could have told me all of this *before* it sold. Here's what I have as FACTS:
1. I bought this spoiler from a Ford dealer, direct, after seeing ads on eBay some 3-4 years ago. They were clearing out the entire inventory, and they were a major FMS dealer in the 80's/90's. I was told it was an 87 piece, but bought based on the fact that ANY FMS spoiler is a "spicy meatball".
2. The box arrived slightly damaged, but no damage was done to the spoiler. No instructions or paperwork was included, but there was a box flap (which is around here somewhere). All of the other parts I bought from this dealer were/are legit and exactly what they stated (87/88 TC shift , 83/84 TC console plate, metal 2.3 timing cover).
3. When I attempted to lay this spoiler on my 84 parts car, it looked "off". After taking the trunk off, we decided it would hit the 1/4's and must have been an 87 piece.
I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you, but everything else I have is simply speculation. Again, I *really* wish you could have done this earlier, but it's not a big deal. I sold the spoiler to a friend and if it fits they will be happy, and I guess that's what matters.
I know Ford is notorious for part # screwups and having multiple versions of the same part #, especially in the FMS/FR line. I have ordered pushrods and gotten 3 different lengths from the same part # before. Could it be possible that they simply "added a little meat" to the spoiler in that 1/4 area and left it the same #?
Mike, once again, not trying to start a shiznit storm here (although I have a feeing the clouds, they're a-thickening), but the reason I said that is that you, yourself claim to be the final word on Thunderbirds. You might not actually have claimed that by actually typing those words, but you have presented yourself in this forum as an expert on the 87-88 Turbo Coupe. Whether you like it or not, people take your words for truth because you've led them to believe that you know what you're talking about. You've built a foundation of expectations, and that foundation is showing cracks, as far as I'm concerned.
The '87 Sport axle (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=14908") was one thing (in which you actually claimed to have gotten under the car and verified it was an 8.8" traction-lock rear, sold it to a board member based on those claims, then had the board member discover, after driving to your place, that it was really a 7.5" open rear). You blamed that on Ford mislabeling the car even though you had previously claimed to have verified with your own eyes that it was an 8.8" stick.
Now we have this spoiler thing. Once again you're blaming it on Ford, claiming, hoping, that the part number is inaccurate.
In both cases YOU were wrong (the spoiler maybe not 100% certain, but no doubt whatsoever with that rear end) but instead of admitting it, you threw up a bunch of excuses and threw around a bunch of blame.
After you had to deal with THIS (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=11454") I would have expected you to take better precautions.
Misrepresenting items for sale on this board, whether intentional or by mistake, is a black mark not just on you but on this whole message board. We do NOT want people going around saying "I got ripped off in the FCTBMB "for sale" section.
All three admins plus Chuck, the moderator of the Marketplace section, have been discussing this. Not just you, Michael, but some other issues with other sellers that have been brought to our attention as well. This section needs fixing, and right now I'm unsure how to fix it.
Until I (or we) can think of something, I would respectfully request that from now on, ANY seller selling ANYTHING should be able to prove any claims they make, or even suggest, in their advertisp00gets. If you're claiming it's NOS or rare be prepared to prove it. Also, unless you're prepared to part with something you're selling RIGHT NOW, and unless that item is in your possession RIGHT NOW, and not in somebody else's car the next county over that you're thinking of buying to part out, do not sell it.
As a seller it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that what you are selling is being represented truthfully. "But this guy said..." or "But he TOLD me I could have it" are not valid excuses.
As for buyers: Do your homework, as well. If it seems fishy don't dangle your worm in front of it. It is YOUR resposnibility to ask the right questions.
Sorry this had to come about in your thread and seem as if I'm singling you out, Michael. It's not just you, you've just provided the most glaring, recent example. We admins are simply getting tired of getting complaints and being expected to referree.
Sorry I'm not perfect. At least I've resolved any and every sales issue to the customer's satisfaction.
On the Sport rear, we pulled it out of the car and popped the cover before any cash changed hands. Once Matt had it home and verified everything on it, he emailed me. Even though I had already lowered the price on it, I simply sent him a 75% refund, which he agreed too. He's happy, and that's what matters. If you make a mistake selling, own up to it and make it right, which is what I did. Matt has never said anything to me to suggest otherwise.
I'm no expert, I've just owned a ton of these, especially the 87/88 TC, and taken them all apart and back together again. Brent and Eric are two people here that DEFINITELY know more then me. I wish Brent would have piped up sooner, but again the spoiler was sold below market value, and the buyer is happy.
I list my personal cell phone #, which can be called at any reasonable time. People here know me, and know that if I DO mess up, I'll make it right.
Ok, Mike, if you want to continue...
Nobody expects anybody to be perfect. Honest, yes. Perfect, no. Like I said: I realize you may have honestly thought you had an authentic FMS 87-88 Spoiler on your hands, but my point was that you've given people the idea that you know what you're talking about and therefore your word can be taken at face value. You should not have had to depend on Brent to do your research for you, especially after the sale had been made. You're the one that is always telling us how much you know about these cars and telling us about all the old literature you've got in your possession.
As for the customer that bought the spoiler: Is he happy, but in ignorance? In other words, is he happy because he still thinks he bought an 87-88 spoiler, or is he aware that there is a very good chance that he hasn't, but he is still happy? I'd be interested in knowing...
Like I said: The spoiler thing may have been an honest mistake. A preventable one perhaps, but a mistake nonetheless. Nobody's perfect.
The Sport rear is an entirely different story.
My point was that the rear end should have been verified before it was even listed for sale. Strengthening my point is the fact that you claimed that you DID verify it. Some snippets from the threads you posted about that car:
This can only lead me to believe that either
A) You wouldn't recognize an 8.8" rear if one bit you in the ass (somewhat hard to believe, if you've owned as many as you say)
or
B) You flat out lied, and didn't check the rear out at all, even though you made more than one claim that you did.
I would not have expected you to disassemble the rear to verify the differential and gears, but would certainly expect something as simple as taking a peek under the car's butt to verify the housing, something you claimed you "DEFINATELY" did, especially given that I personally informed you that '87 Sports did not come from Ford with 8.8" rears.
Finding out that rear was a 7.5" rear only after selling it, after claiming to have verified that it was an 8.8, was not an honest mistake. You told us you checked. You obviously didn't.
All of this is simply a roundabout way of backing up my previous request: Before selling anything on this forum (or, one would hope, any other forum or selling media, including ebay), please verify that you are representing it accurately. This request applies to everybody. I really don't think it's an unreasonable request.
If I'm coming across as a prick, so be it. I'm suffering 'flu right now and am not feeling particularly pleasant nor apologetic. I've been cooped up inside for three days and just may be venting my spleen. Deal with it.
The sway bar was the same, the springs were the same, and the thing LOOKED like an 8.8. Matt couldn't tell either. I've only owned 3-4 NON-TC's so I wouldn't know a 7.5 if it bit me in the ass. We verified that it was not the original rear (or did not match the door tag at the very least) before the sale was made. Once Matt figured out it was a 7.5 I made it right. I *never* claimed to be smart in Sport/V8/non-TC's.
What I'd like to know is why you are placing blame on Brent for 'not asking you sooner' about the spoiler?
Why is it anyone's responsibility but your own when you are the one selling it. You make claims to know what you are talking about in many threads.... either you have no clue what you are talking about, and therefore lying about it to make yourself look good, or you do know what you are talking about and are lying to make a sale.
Either way, you are being dishonest with people you are trying to sell to.
Personally, I think your selling privileges should be revoked from this board for a set amount of time. As it was mentioned you make the rest of the place look bad.
Personally I think you should drive off the nearest cliff.
I am not the one making this place look bad. You will not find a single customer who has not been dealt with right.
Brent is the only person on here who would really be able to identify a part one way or another with 100% certainty. If he thought the spoiler was NOT an 87 unit, he should have mentioned it right away. That's not a blame, that's just an opinion.
:spit:
sorry, it was funny. as you were.
im tired of readin this over and over.
if you look at the time stamps, Brent asked for the part number nearly 12 hours before you posted it pending or sold. and yet YOU waited DAYS to make a reply and had to be asked repeatedly before posting an answer.
its NOT Brent's responsibility to fact check you.
Oh for the love of...
Let me spell it out...
I AM NOT BLAMING BRENT!!!!!!!!If we are clear on that, my
opinion is that if he had a doubt, I would have preferred that he had
started with, "Hey, I don't think that's right". He still managed to provide evidence and clues, and I trust his judgment if he feels it's an 83-86. The spoiler is already shipped and gone. If it was still here I could have mounted to John's 84 and then to one of the 3 87-88 Birds laying around or maybe even found somebody around with an 83-86 one and compared.
It is what it is. It's
still an NOS FMS spoiler, it
still fit over the 1/4's on an 87/88, and I was going off the
best knowledge I had at the time.
You didn't need to recognize a 7.5", you only needed to recognize that it
wasn't an 8.8, which should have been easy to somebody that's had a bunch. Coulda been a Chevy 10-bolt or a Chrysler 8-3/4 for all I care - if it didn't look like an 8.8 it isn't an 8.8.
I might not be able to pick an AMC 304 out of a line of engines, but I'd certainly know something was different if I opened the hood of a T-Bird and found one there instead of the 5.0 I'm used to seeing. Similarly, if you opened the hood of a Turbo Coupe and found anything other than a Ford 2.3 SOHC turbo engine you'd know it. You might not immediately know what the strange engine is, but you'd know it isn't a 2.3 SOHC turbo.
I've only ever owned one T-Bird 8.8" and I could easily tell it from the 7.5" I took out. Conversely, I've owned six foxes with 7.5" rears (including an '87 Sport) and would easily tell when looking under the car that the rear end I was looking at isn't like the rear ends I'm used to looking at. The 7.5" almost looks "cute" when compared to the 8.8". The sway bar, springs, control arms, etc might look the same because they ARE the same. The differential, that big roundish thing in the middle, is what's different and is also what makes an 8.8" rear an 8.8" rear (actually I believe the tubes are bigger on the 8.8 too, but that'd be easy to miss), and there is really no mistaking the two. Aside from the obvious (the 8.8" is much bigger) it also has a completely differently shaped differential cover (the 8.8" is almost "squarish" while the 7.5" is round with squashed top and bottom).
Actually, now that I think of it, since I did that rear end swap I currently own three - one in the F-150, one in the Town Car, and one in the T-Bird. All three 8.8" rears I have now have completely different ends and axle tube lengths for different applications (one set up for leaf springs, one for air springs, one for no springs because they sit on the control arms), but the center sections are identical.
The fact that Matt could not tell only serves to prove my point that the seller should know what he is selling. Had Matt not figured it out and installed that rear, then two years from now somebody that knew better got under the car and pointed out to him that it was a 7.5", what would you have done in 2009 when he messaged you and told you that you sold him a bum rear? Matt is not the perceived "expert", and it isn't his job to be. You've got a business based purely on selling parts and components for
these cars. One would expect that you'd be able to identify a simple rear end...
Again, it's not an unreasonable or particularly complicated request: In future please,
everybody, do what you should have been doing all along: Make sure the claims you make when selling things are accurate. It's the honest thing to do, and it's just plain good business practice. Unhappy customers are not repeat customers, nor do they guide other potential customers your way.
I should also point out at this point that many potential customers depend on others' experiences before buying from somebody the first time. Most can overlook a simple honest mistake, but ALL will be looking at how the vendor handles those complaints. Denial and blame-tossing will turn people off. Continuing denial and last-gasp blame tossing (including trying to offload some of the blame to the customer) is even worse. Simple as that.
Unhappy customers also tend to blame the sale-gone-bad on the forum that initiated the sale (why do you think so many people hate eBay, even though eBay is not responsible for their getting ripped off?), and they tend to complain to the people that run those sites. That's where I come into this. I'm simply tired of fielding complaints, and am like this close >.< to snapping entirely. This very thread is getting dangerously close to pushing me over the edge. It is going to happen, and when it does happen there will be a
miserable user or two, I can guarantee it.
I had a bad selling time a couple of years ago,all is good now.I do think we should perhaps have a few "laws" for the forum,that,if broken,have some kind of probation/punishment as a result of continued complaints,deals not followed through with,misrepresentation,etc.Nothing towards you Mike.I personally haven't had a bad incident with you at all.But overall,for everyone's "selling and buying,safety",we should implement something.Perhaps a warning (easy enough),then a decided period of no selling on the forum,then banned.Just a thought.
Oh, there already is something like that in place....just unofficially.
It would be easier if there was some more formality to it though.
That's what I was talking about,More "formal" rules.More motivation to do transactions "right".
If people need "motivation" to do transactions right...they shouldn't be selling/buying in the first place. It should be a given.
That's exactly what I was trying to say.
holy , I agree with Chuck!LOL:D
Time to put this post to rest. Everyone makes mistakes; especially in selling used parts. The real test is how the customer is treated when the mistake is found. My policy is just return it for a full refund. If it was my mistake I pay the shipping back, if it was the customer's I give the refund less shipping both ways. Or in some cases I just try to let them keep the part with a partial refund.
Good communication is all it takes and I think that Mike does an excellent job with this. If this was not true it would not be on the forum for all to read. I would not be afraid to deal with Mike, Aerobird Motorsports, on any transaction.
I purchased an 8.8 rear to put in a 85 Cutlass once. I took out the old rear, cut off the Cutlass brackets, welded them on the 8.8 rear, got it to fit. Then I pulled the axles to have them re-drilled to the GM bolt pattern. When I pulled the rear cover I said to myself "this does not look like a 8.8 inch ring gear". It was not, it was a 7.5. In the s pile it went, I felt stupid.
Now I can tell the difference between a 7.5 and 8.8 a mile away and I bet that Mike can also. Making a big Boo Boo is a great learning tool. The cover on an 8.8 is almost square.
Try telling the parts apart for the 71-78 Cadillac Eldorados, lot of changes here.
TED
I agree, this thread going this far is ****ing retarded. Its by far the stupidest thread that has ever come across this forum.
*pushes the "Close" button"