Hey guys, I'm lookin for a few cheap ways to add a few horsepower to my 5.0HO. I'm limited with what I can do due to having the flat top pistons, so everything I do needs to be elsewhere. I'm currently looking at getting an electric fan, which should help my AC stay nice and cold and also free up a couple of hp. I'm also looking at an intake spacer, which is what this topic is about. Simply put, do they help? And if so, should I go 3/8in or 1/2in? I'm currently looking at buying this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/5-0-FORD-MUSTANG-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-SPACER-FUEL-INJECTION_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem330153815826QQitemZ330153815826#ebayphotohosting
I'd just like some comments or suggestions on this. Will it gain me anything at the track?
Oh, and for the record, this is all I have planned for now:
Electric fan
Fuel pump
Intake spacer
Underdrive pulleys
Shift kit
Roller rockers (stock ratio)
Explorer Intake (and possibly another spacer for that)
3.27 gears (to hold me over until I snag an 8.8 with 3.55s)
Should I just wait and save for an Explorer intake and just get a spacer for that, or will the $40 for a spacer now be worth it for a nice performance boost before I can get an Explorer intake? In the end, I'd like to have at least ~250fwhp. Any comments or suggestions on my other upgrades are fine too.
Start with the fuel pump. It alone will make your car feel more powerful on the top end.
Find another block or short block,Build on it till It's ready to put in.Cheaper in the long run.
OK I'm awake now, forgot you have the HO already...
You can repl the pump, but it isn't really necessary IF it maintains pressure at WOT... I''d go with the roller 1.7s as they free up some HP and the extra lift means more air flow... They work fine on a E6 headed HO, I have used them...
Um ok...that helps :hick:
Anyways...
Yeah, I plan to do a ground up engine build down the road, but I simply dont have that kind of cash to throw around. Several of the things I'm getting will be used later on with that future engine too (the fan, intake, intake spacer, fuel pump, and pulleys most likely) so only a few things are just to help the engine currently. The future engine is quite a ways down the road (I'll be aiming for a 350-450 fwhp 331).
I'd love to go with 1.7s, but I have the stock flat top pistons :( . Unless they'll still be fine, but I always thought they'd cause some valve clearance probs. But if not, I'll be glad to pop a set in. And yeah, the fuel pump seems fine at WOT, but I'll replace it at some point just to be safe. Probably after most of the other stuff is done.
The '86 HOs had E6 heads and flattop pistons, that's what I ran a set of the Cobra 1.7s on.. I doubt they'd even be a problem with E7s and flattops(if the 1.6s were OK)... Any possible interference is when the valve first starts to open or just closing(this is when the piston is moving away from or toward valve)... There should not be enough difference in lift at that point to cause a problem...
Unless you want to resell parts later, I'd make mods that could be utilized on a new engine...
Full-length headers, off-road road H or X pipe (2.5"), toss your smog pump and forget the 3.27's or 3.55's...go with 4.10's...or at the very least 3.73's. Bump the timing to around 14-16 degrees and run premium...the car will wake up big time. These along with the other mods you've planned should put you into the low low 14's with traction and good air. A torque convertor will help a lot too...probably no more than 2400-2600rpm.
Awesome, thanks for the info about the rockers, that's really good to know! Looks like a set of 1.7ratio roller rockers are gonna be comin! :)
And your comment about mods that I can use on the new engine: that's exactly what I was thinking. My list in an earlier post already covers a lot of stuff that can and will be used in the new engine.
@sick: Well one thing I'm very clear on is that I want my car to always be emmissions legal. Especially since we have emmissions here in NC, and I'd rather have the piece of mind. Also, I JUST put the exhaust in in May, so that wont be changed any time soon. I'll probably get a better H pipe with 2 high flow cats and some better headers for now, but that's still a ways off.
The gears I'm a bit hung up on. I'm not gonna go with 4.10s; I want it to be mild. It'll still be used on the street 95% of the time. And right now, and probably for several years more, it is my daily driver. 3.73s are a very good possibility when the car is retired from its DD duties (maybe earlier if I'm convinced enough). That's also when I plan to start the new engine build...so yeah, that's a while off. I'm also doing the 3.27s purely because I already have the set sitting in the garage, so they're pretty much free. Might as well!
I've thought about the timing bump and I probably will do that.
I'll also definitely do the torque converter if I decide to keep the AOD. Like I said, it is and always will be mainly a street car with an occasional trip to the track once a month or so. I still havent decided for sure if I'm going to keep the AOD or drop in a WC T5. This decision will also affect my decision with gear ratios.
Thanks a whole bunch for all the input so far guys, this is exactly the stuff I need to know and think about :) .
That's the absolute FIRST mod you should have made... Setting the timing to 13*-14* makes a very noticeable difference... Course you'll have to run premium fuel...
Being an 19 year old with a part time job, I've been hesitant to do that. Does it affect gas mileage at all?
Oh and by the way, I havent made any mods to the HO yet, so it still could be my first mod for it :) .
If anything, it should increase mileage... On the fuel you may be OK with Mid Grade...
Ah awesome, thanks for the info. I'll have to do some testing with that.
Save your money on the stock spacer,i have one for the gt40 style intake(explorer) without the gaskets or bolts that i'd let ya have for 15.00+ shipping if your interested.
It's new,bought it and never used it.
1.7s with the stock ho cam will work without problem in your application.
Thanks for the offer! I'll drop you a pm in a min.
Also, thanks for re-confirming the 1.7 ratio rockers. Great info indeed.
x2
i thought for sure with a HO cam and SO pistons that 1.6 was all u can go. looks like i gotta buy some new rockers before before i go through with the HO conversion. glad i looked at this thread! :D
If you're planning on an electric fan and underdrive pulleys, then a 130amp alternator is a must!
Glad you mentioned that, cause that's something I had forgotten to mention :hick:
actually, would 1.7's work with a HO cam and SO pistons still, if i have E7's that are milled .008 off? i dont think the .008 would make a difference, but i would really like an opinion or two before i bend a couple valves and feel like an idiot.
It's not .008" lift it's .0.33".
Stock ho cam lift with 1.6s is .444",with 1.7s it goes to .477" lift.
im asking if milling the heads .008 off would bring the valves too close to the pistons with 1.7's. cus now theres .008 of steel missing bringing the whole head down that much. like i said, i doubt that little bit would make a difference, but i'd rather ask if someone knew.
The only real way to know is install the head with some modeling clay on the piston(maybe .200 thick)... rotate it twice, then remove the head and measure the thickness of the clay... I believe it's something .100 minium on exaust and a little less is OK on the intake... You can do it with out a gasket, just add .041 for the compressed thickness(or what ever the gasketmaker says the thickness will be)...
The only problem is that I need my car 5+ days a week, hence the reason I'm focusing on smaller upgrades for now. But, I was thinking about the rockers, and what you all are saying is right. The valves are opening at the same time, but now they're just opening more. The piston should be pretty far away at the time that extra opening comes into play.
For what it's worth, I had 3.73's in my '88 Bird and it made all the difference in the world...fuel mileage was still very good and my cruise RPM on the freeway wasn't excessive at all....4.10's may have got me into the 13's if there was no headwind that night...oh well, we'll never know now....I had VERY little done to that car and it went exceptionally fast...with a 300k mile block.
There are always ways around emissions...I live in NJ and it's the worst(behind california) for inspections...I've only had one emissions legal car in all my time driving.
Either way you go, good luck with it!
-Don
P.S.-I know people say not to run more than 14* base, but I got my best runs at the track from 16* on Sunoco 94(which they no longer seem to sell in south Jersey).
For the cost of 1.7 you would be better off puttin better headers on,The 17's wont gain you much.
True that.Headers will do a lot more than 1.7's.How's the rest of the exhaust?
I still say get the 1.7s... I addition to more lift they free HP due to less friction... A set of better headers & H pipe won't hurt, but don't make a lot of improvement on stock heads...
Are you talking E6 or E7 heads and what pistons???
I'd say the only probable problem would be with the E7s and flattops(why I suggested checking clearance)... The E6 won't have a problem even with a .030 cut and 1.7s... Valves it those are DEEP in the head...
Aren't you running RR's now,I still say for the money put bbk shorts on,there simple and you can work with them later.139.00
versus what 180.00,Wait a few months I"ll sell you my scorpians.
Got me some AFR 165's to put on + a few stuff.
Agree, 7-10hp with 1.7 roller rockers. Mustang exhaust is adequate for e7 heads, which are the flow choke. You would be hard pressed to get 10hp on stock e7's even with long tubes. Also 1.7's are ok with speed density. Clearance should be checked to make certain on flat tops. Maybe one day, I'll check. :hick:
Yeah, the exhaust was just recently done. Other than a better H-pipe with 2 high flow cats, I dont see any other changes coming for a good while.
So I'm guessing the 1.7 rockers are still the best bet?
No if your guessing. Yes if your measuring. :D
So I'm MEASURING the 1.7 rockers are still the best bet?
:hick:
Gotta question: If 1.7 rockers would work, why wouldn't a bigger cam work?
Because roller rockers do NOT increase duration and they are only increasing the amount of lift at the valve by around .030"
It will, IF you were only increasing lift and none of the other parameters...
Man, I really don't know what is the max lift is with SO flattops. I do know that on my 88 SO pistons, there are NO valve reliefs. I've seen a 93 ho with hypereutic pistons and it had 4 valve reliefs. Don't ask me why they put 4. I think it's dumb, but they want to make it easy for the assembly line so they can put the pistons on either bank. IIRC gt-40y's will not work, the intake valves were just too big. Unless I measure, write stuff down exactly and don't lose it, I forget. It is some work to pull heads and check this stuff in the vehicle, but that's what needs to be done.
Cam selection is critical especially with speed density. Any camshaft should be degreed into a motor and valve piston clearances checked. Armed with that info, you can experiment with different combos and it also lets the cam grinders know you are not going in blind. I believe one of the ho cams specs is .444 lift w/1.6 rockers, 266 duration with 115 lobe centers. 1.7's would change it to .472. If you have enough clearance you could run a cam with that lift. Duration should be kept in the 270's and it can change effective lift. Lobe centers should be no less than 114.
Valve events are a little difficult to understand and explain. Hopefully, I'll know more if and when my camshaft is degreed.
Mike
Yeah that's what I told my dad when he asked me, but I figured I'd ask and make sure. So theoretically, I could just have someone grind me a stock HO cam with more lift. But that'd be taking the long way around.
Yes, definately the long way and a complete waste of hard earned cash. That "custom" ground cam would cost good money and give next to nil performance.
Save your money and invest in a set of tfs twisted wedge heads, rockers and pushrods. Turbocoupe50 is racing those with flat tops, so you know it'll work. Those tfs by themselves will bolt on, blow away anything you can do with a cam change or to those e7's. More horsepower, increased valve clearance, and lighter weight. Not often you get 3 benefits for the price of one. TFS all the way. :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
Oh wow, all of that works with flat tops? And they'd work fine with a stock cam and 1.7 rockers?
Dude, let me tell you, I did not know this. A guy I know is a parts, man at a Ford dealer been there for years, has hot rod Mustangs etc. Figuire he knows his $hit. Well I know the SO is a dog, e6's are more of a flow choke than e7's, the motor is a dog even blown.
Anyhow, the engine needs heads, so I ask him what he thinks, and he says he has a good deal on gt-40y's. Will they work? he says 86 and up it will, no interference problems. Told him specificly an 88 t-bird with an SO. He shows me in the SVO book. Cool. I call SVO and ask a Mustang racer at the dealer. Nobody had done it so they did not know for certain, but everybody said "it should work". Ok so the car sits for awhile and I finally get off my lazy a$$ to get it done. I pull the head off and see no valve reliefs, $hit, uh-oh, I better check. I did the lift test pretty quick but IIRC it wasn't even close. When the piston was at tdc the valve was like less the .010" from the piston. With the chain on I thought it might have even stopped rotating. No way I aint using these brand new heads and hose'n up the motor and heads. Big problem was I lost the reciept and the parts guy told me I was out. I didn't know about this board or hotrodding small block Fords. There were 3 different heads sold by Ford: gt-40x, gt-40y, gt-40z. The gt-40z's were the hottest, so I figuire the one in the middle like the alphabet cams. Come to find out it is the LOWEST horsepower of the three. I don't know if they're trying to trick you or what. I was pissed, :mad: I couldn't use Ford's $hit with Fords parts. None work with flat tops. Ultimately, it was my own fault, why? because I didn't check or take advise from someone who was running the same combo. Later I find out that TFS have more power, work with flat tops and are just better all around than anything Ford puts out. I thought I was doing good by going with Ford parts. It was an expensive lesson I'll hope not to make again.
I appologize if this sounded like a rant, but it was a live and learn deal.
Nah man that's great info. The only problem now is that those heads are quite expensive.
Everything you'll need engine wise. Add your own Mass air, fuel pump and injectors........Oooh and Throttle body.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=TFS%2DK514%2D350%2D370&autoview=sku
wow dude, that is pretty pricey. throw in another grand and a half and u can get a pretty good crate engine. the top end isnt as good as that kit. but then you'll know the bottom end is new and built stronger then your stock SO.
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_756619_-1_10763
Yeah that stuff is a bit outta my price range.
As long as youre not stupid, the bottom end of a standard 302 could last years under a top end kid like Trick Flows. Tom is running an 86 short block in his bird, with that top end kit, he has been for years, and he doesnt baby it by any means.
I have that setup as well.
BTW I've personally seen a 91 Town Car block with stock rods and crank take 550 RWHP.
i stand corrected
Yeah, unfortunately going fast costs. $. You could save up and do it right with some of this info or work the stuff you have now. The tfs kits are impressive with out a doubt. 350+hp. Anytime you are over a hp per ci is good. Makes you really appreciate what the 4 cyl. guys are able to accomplish.
cheap HP
UPR cold air fender well kit
also i got a 255lph fuel pump helps a lot
Try and get a E303 cam or something a step-up form a B-cam
The "E" cam is milder than the "B"...
Not according to the alphabet!
That's why i wanted an E cam.I can't have too radical with flat top pistons.Heck,I don't even know if the E will work until I throw it in and do a PTV check.I'll post when it happens.
please do, im very curious if any other cam will work with a SO bottom end besides a HO.
Rumor has it that it will clear, but every engine and every head is different.
Don't get me started :hick:
Ford and the alphabet :beatyoass: :punchballs:
Lol throw the alphabet out the window when talking injectors. go by color only.
worst gray,better orange/yellow, even better red, and green the best.
If buying the injectors from Ford, open the box 1st then you know. :D :hick: :D
You forgot blue:hick:
Funny, blue is 24 pounds/hour on the 5.0. My Stang has 34's now.....they are also blue. Much different in appearance, but the same blue.
Alright guys, I bumped the timing to 14 deg BTDC this evening and she definitely feels better at higher rpms. She runs right to 5500rpm without problems. I plan to go to the track tomorrow to see if it translates to better numbers.
So anyways...what's this I'm hearing about putting an E303 cam with an SO bottom end?
Same as before, you can run about any cam that's streetable with the E6s... I can't see it happening with E7s
Bah...
I'm just going to stick with my original plan. Do the electric fan, Explorer intake, spacer, and UD pulleys for this engine to get it running 9s consistently and save everything else for when I build another engine from the ground up. It's not worth it to dig all the way back into the current engine. No oil leaks that I've noticed either.
ok, what sounds better on an SO bottom end? an E303 with E6 heads? or a HO cam with E7 heads? i guess the HO cam? i assume the E6's would hold too much power back.
On teh subject of cams.. and sorry for the jack, but PTV clearence was mentioned. What is teh MAX lift you can use in our cars without breaking stuff. In my case I have D5? heads. And I haven't picked a cam yet as I duno what to pick lift wise.
lift isnt the issue. its duration(how long the valve is open). most intake valves open when the piston is at BDC(bottom dead center).
I always thought it was lift that made it hit.
Revising my question, what is the limit for stock stuff?
Interesting question...
Food for thought...
The '86 HO is basically a SO with a 58mm TB, non-HO intake, E6s and were rated at 200HP... So It's the cam, TB, and exhaust system that apparently makes the huge difference... Of course you need the other HO pieces(inj, EEC, etc), but they are the same on either...
Guessing with the true HO intake and the '87-up 60mm TB, HP would be approx 205 with the E6s...
All head/piston combos prior to '86 have the valve relifs.... It's ONLY the '86 HO(also '87 in the LSC) and the '86-'91 SO engines that do not have valve relifs...
If you go with the "E" you're going to need a Mass Air system...
On the intake spacer question don't even waste your money on one. I have one and I don't notice a difference at all. I only have it for valve cover clearance.