Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: 88XR7 on July 09, 2007, 04:56:59 PM

Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 09, 2007, 04:56:59 PM
Alright, so now I have everything to put her back together.

Got a question regarding valve stem seals...
What is this and does it need to be on there? It was on my valves when I pulled them out.
(http://i10.tinypic.com/62odjj6.jpg)
...and is the intake seal supposed to fit snugly over the valve guide just as the exhaust seal does?(Yes, I know they aren't over the guide in the picture)
(http://i11.tinypic.com/6fqqi5e.jpg)
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 09, 2007, 09:34:04 PM
Bump, someone shed some light on this for me.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 09, 2007, 09:42:32 PM
At first I thought it was a spring shim(to increase pressure) but it looks smaller...

You using a mix of seals??? If so aren't they reversed??? You want the Perfect Circle on the intake, so it doesn't suck oil past the guide...
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 09, 2007, 09:47:29 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;159816
At first I thought it was a spring shim(to increase pressure) but it looks smaller...

You using a mix of seals??? If so aren't they reversed??? You want the Perfect Circle on the intake, so it doesn't suck oil past the guide...


If you mean a mix of seals, by seperate for intake and exhaust, then yes.

The blue ones are for the exhaust and the black are for the intake.
What do you mean Perfect Circle?

No, it's not a spring shim, these don't have any.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 09, 2007, 10:13:22 PM
Alright, well I've read that people use the Perfect Seal style seals for the intake and the umbrella for the exhaust so that is what I will be doing. The 'Perfect Seal" style ones were in the box marked for the exhaust side however.

Now, I am just wondering where the umbrella style sets and what the f^ck that o-ring thing is for...
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87 on July 09, 2007, 10:23:17 PM
id use the good pc seals on both sides (intake and exhaust)

and make sure to use the install tool or the keeper grooves can damage the seals.

a little lube on the stems is manditory or you will be siezing valves.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2007, 10:31:23 PM
yeah, like tom said, you have it backwards.  the cap type seals go on the exhaust and teh snuggly round blue one goes on the intake.

some kits will come with too many of the hood types so dont be worried about coming up with 8 extra of those.

it would be nice to have the blue type you have there on both stems because you really dont get the chance to do that later on unless your good at undoing the sprint / cap/keepers with the head still on. 

Did the shop ask you to also send your valves to them?  that would have been nice of them to determine if the guides had excessive wear and would make you want to use the blue types on both stems.

Also,, get a little bottle of red lithium grease.  Your gonna want to coat the valve with that stuff cause those valves are going to be rubbing dry against the guide until oil arrives.  That can equate to probably 100 or more cycles which is a lot of wear.

As far as that roundy thing a ma jig,, ive never seen that before,  Maybe if you wire wheel it off, you might find some information on it.  Were those located under the lower spring cup?
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 09, 2007, 10:34:15 PM
Quote from: jcassity;159835
yeah, like tom said, you have it backwards.  the cap type seals go on the exhaust and teh snuggly round blue one goes on the intake.

some kits will come with too many of the hood types so dont be worried about coming up with 8 extra of those.

it would be nice to have the blue type you have there on both stems because you really dont get the chance to do that later on unless your good at undoing the sprint / cap/keepers with the head still on. 

Did the shop ask you to also send your valves to them?  that would have been nice of them to determine if the guids had excessive wear and would make you want to use the blue types on both stems.


No the shop didn't. It was more of a performance shop for race stuff so he wasn't to fond about doing mine.

I'm lapping the valves myself.

Does anyone know where that o-ring comes into play and where the hood/umbrella type seals seat?
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2007, 10:49:17 PM
i edited my post which i often do.

the round thing ive never seen before and likely you dont need em unless they are located under the lower spring cup.  Clean em off and see if they are marked with an thickness.  If they are, then its likely someone else shimmed the springs.

for the hood type seals,, stick them on each exhaust valve stem. 

stick the snug blue ones on the intake.

get some red lithium.

if you wanna freshen up your seats,, get or borrow some of these,,,,,,
made by neway
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 09, 2007, 10:58:20 PM
Quote from: jcassity;159845

for the hood type seals,, stick them on each exhaust valve stem. 

stick the snug blue ones on the intake.

get some red lithium.

if you wanna freshen up your seats,, get or borrow some of these,,,,,,
made by neway


Do I slide the hood style ones over the guide?
I am freshening up the seats with valve grinding compound and working them in.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2007, 11:05:29 PM
just stuff them over the valve stem,,, as the valve opens and closes,, they will relocate themselves to thier final resting spot anyway cause the valve slides up and down.

install your hood types on the stem,,and get em over the guide as well..
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2007, 11:11:48 PM
Quote from: 88XR7;159850
Do I slide the hood style ones over the guide?
I am freshening up the seats with valve grinding compound and working them in.


also, if your lapping by hand, eyeball your surface you are cutting and stop when the ring around the valve is nice and even all the way around the valve. 

there should be three angles visible but your likely to only see the 45deg one.

you can lap one at a a time then take out the valve, wipe off the compound and inspect the area i mentioned.

my heads were a bitch cause my 1.94's were soooooooo  close to the spark plug hole.  Caused me a lot of problems in the beginning. Im still down due to other more responsible things to do with a few spare dollars at the moment.

please dont forget the red lithium i mentioned,, that stuff is more sticky than pine sap and wont wear off quickly.  your gonna need that protection on those valves since they are bone dry now plus your adding grit and sandy substances to the mix.

Also,, if any ,, and i mean any valve is not so easy to get in or was sort of a bitch to get out,, that means the rocker mushroomed the end of the valve just enough to increase its diameter up where the keepers are.  If you noticed any of that then before you install them, use a real fine flat file to "debur" the valve stem up on the end around the edges.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2007, 11:22:10 PM
ok
and another note on quality to check your guides the shade tree mechanic way.

get some real thin oil and coat the valve stem and guide.

stuff the valve up in the hole.
now,
push the valve stem down till its flush with the gude.
press your finger down over the guide and valve stem
now with your finger over top of the guide hole and stem reach and pull on the valve itself

start to pull on the valve while holding your finger good and tight over the guide hole

now,, let go of the valve end
the valve should "boing" or get sucked back up into the guide.

what you just did is check the guide for good clearance.
if the guide was worn, then the valve will not suck back up into the guide.

thats a shade tree way of checking and most shops do that as well if they want to.

the reason why i said to use thin oil such as 3in1 and such is this,, If your valve was sucked back in (holding a good vacuum) using thin oil then its gotta be good enough when regular motor oil is in there.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 09, 2007, 11:31:02 PM
Quote from: jcassity;159859
ok
and another note on quality to check your guides the shade tree mechanic way.

get some real thin oil and coat the valve stem and guide.

stuff the valve up in the hole.
now,
push the valve stem down till its flush with the gude.
press your finger down over the guide and valve stem
now with your finger over top of the guide hole and stem reach and pull on the valve itself

start to pull on the valve while holding your finger good and tight over the guide hole

now,, let go of the valve end
the valve should "boing" or get sucked back up into the guide.

what you just did is check the guide for good clearance.
if the guide was worn, then the valve will not suck back up into the guide.

thats a shade tree way of checking and most shops do that as well if they want to.

the reason why i said to use thin oil such as 3in1 and such is this,, If your valve was sucked back in (holding a good vacuum) using thin oil then its gotta be good enough when regular motor oil is in there.


Wow, great stuff to know man!:hick:
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 09, 2007, 11:32:27 PM
Quote from: jcassity;159857
also, if your lapping by hand, eyeball your surface you are cutting and stop when the ring around the valve is nice and even all the way around the valve. 

there should be three angles visible but your likely to only see the 45deg one.

you can lap one at a a time then take out the valve, wipe off the compound and inspect the area i mentioned.

my heads were a bitch cause my 1.94's were soooooooo  close to the spark plug hole.  Caused me a lot of problems in the beginning. Im still down due to other more responsible things to do with a few spare dollars at the moment.

please dont forget the red lithium i mentioned,, that stuff is more sticky than pine sap and wont wear off quickly.  your gonna need that protection on those valves since they are bone dry now plus your adding grit and sandy substances to the mix.

Also,, if any ,, and i mean any valve is not so easy to get in or was sort of a bitch to get out,, that means the rocker mushroomed the end of the valve just enough to increase its diameter up where the keepers are.  If you noticed any of that then before you install them, use a real fine flat file to "debur" the valve stem up on the end around the edges.


Yeap, I've noticed a big difference on the total area that it is seating, it is visibly noticeable by where the area is being ground.

ALL of my valves were easy to get out, nothing tuff;)

Would regular lithium or just engine assembly lube work?
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: jcassity on July 09, 2007, 11:50:17 PM
actually for testing that valve guide wear and tear,,,,,,,USE MOTOR OIL.  i dont know what i was thinking. 
to get the desired result, use the oil that is gonna be in the motor.


That assembly grease is generally too thin for my liking.  Thats my opinon.  You can wipe it off your hands easy, therefore its easy to wear off.

warning, this is my opinon only but if you get a little bottle of the red lithium,, it will last you for years cause just a frew drops will do.  Pretty sticky stuff.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 09, 2007, 11:56:21 PM
Quote from: jcassity;159874
actually for testing that valve guide wear and tear,,,,,,,USE MOTOR OIL.  i dont know what i was thinking. 
to get the desired result, use the oil that is gonna be in the motor.


That assembly grease is generally too thin for my liking.  Thats my opinon.  You can wipe it off your hands easy, therefore its easy to wear off.

warning, this is my opinon only but if you get a little bottle of the red lithium,, it will last you for years cause just a frew drops will do.  Pretty sticky stuff.


Alrighty, sounds fine to me.

Any idea on those o-rings, should I just disregard them?
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: jcassity on July 10, 2007, 01:08:44 AM
i would.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 10, 2007, 12:38:02 PM
The heads are all together now and the driver side head is sitting on there....

Only thing hold me back is ONE OF MY HEADBOLTS ARe MISSING!!!

Despite having them in ziplocs I wound up loosing one...

If anyone has one wanna ship it? :hick:
It'd be great if yuou lived near me, but I only know a few people on this board live in florida...
Wish me luck!
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 10, 2007, 04:21:00 PM
Quote from: 88XR7;159982
The heads are all together now and the driver side head is sitting on there....

Only thing hold me back is ONE OF MY HEADBOLTS ARe MISSING!!!

Despite having them in ziplocs I wound up loosing one...

If anyone has one wanna ship it? :hick:
It'd be great if yuou lived near me, but I only know a few people on this board live in florida...
Wish me luck!


You're better off with new head bolts all around. I wouldn't re-use the old ones as they probably won't hold too good......
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 10, 2007, 04:59:50 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;160028
You're better off with new head bolts all around. I wouldn't re-use the old ones as they probably won't hold too good......


Well, the haynes manual says that it's  not required, but I know it's not always right...
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 10, 2007, 06:29:46 PM
I believe the factory bolts are only good for one go around. I'd rather use new head bolts anyways as the old ones probably have some corrosion on them. Cheap insurance to keep the head gaskets in place.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: 88XR7 on July 10, 2007, 09:44:16 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;160045
I believe the factory bolts are only good for one go around. I'd rather use new head bolts anyways as the old ones probably have some corrosion on them. Cheap insurance to keep the head gaskets in place.


Well, of course I would prefer to NOT re-use them.

However, the haynes does say they are not required to be replaced and with my extreme time and money restraints, this will ave to do for now.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87 on July 10, 2007, 09:56:11 PM
Quote from: 88XR7;159878
Alrighty, sounds fine to me.

Any idea on those o-rings, should I just disregard them?



they go under the black umbrella seals.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87 on July 10, 2007, 09:57:49 PM
Quote from: 88XR7;160093
Well, of course I would prefer to NOT re-use them.

However, the haynes does say they are not required to be replaced and with my extreme time and money restraints, this will ave to do for now.



Nothing wrong with reusing them there not TTY bolts.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: nirvanagod on July 10, 2007, 10:03:55 PM
Seeing as how head bolts are torque to yield, I believe that they are more susceptible to stretching and breaking. I can't say that I would trust the Haynes manual, I've found that they can be wrong about some things. Check here: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ARP%2D154%2D3601&autoview=sku

For $40 (granted I got the right part) It's not terribly expensive and would be good insurance down the road.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: jcassity on July 11, 2007, 08:42:53 AM
the iron heads dont have tty bolts, most aluminium ones do.  You could go buy new ones, but then find out the new ones are TTY while your old ones were stronger.  Either way is good advice, i just wonld bother with it myself in your situation.

also, for a tighter fitting head or seal on the head gasket, lay your head bolts out in the sun or get them warm / hot.
this will effect your torque in a way that compensates for the prior stretch they were under.  when they cool off to match the the temp of the motor(which im sure is nice and cool in the garage), they will pull down on the head sealing better.

leaving your heads sitting down on the concrete floor gets em nice and cool so therefore they shrink in size to some unknown value.  Warm/hot bolts added to a nice crisp cool head will make for a tight fit when the temps even out after assembly.  Plus when the motor warms up, things should expand and seal up even better.  This type of thinking is typically overlooked insurance down the road and doesnt cost you a dime.

If you think about it,, usually people will say to go around and snug up your head bolts one more go around after the motor warms up because things expand.  In a perfect world, you would not have to do this if your heads were put in the deep freezer for a few hours while your bolts were put on hot.

This same process applies to the removeal and installation of a standard drive flywheel ring gear.

dont forget to silicone your shorter head bolts as these pass through the water jacket down in the block.
Title: Last valvetrain ? I promise...
Post by: jcassity on July 11, 2007, 09:09:54 AM
ok,, another thing,,,
you never asked and im wonder why so ill tell you what you did not ask yet.

the right orientation of your head gasket puts the TWO larger water port holes to the rear of the engine.  This means one headgasket is flipped upside down from the other.  I think the RH side lays down as instructed but the LH side lays in such a way that you cant see the word "FRONT" anymore.  cant remember if i have this backwards or not.

Anyway,, its also a good opportuinty to port match yoru head gasket water jacket holes at the triangle shaped areas in between cylinders.  notice the little tiny circle holes that dont match the big triangle ones in the block and head.

if you dont have patients and dont give the rear intake seal (cork) time to dry sitting on the block,, and you fu@$ it up cause it slipped on you, NAPA sells a better quality gasket material that is thicker.  You get a 1/2 square yard of it for about 6bux.