Evidently my car has been pinging forever (At least since I've owned it anyway) and I just haven't noticed until today...when several friends pointing out the marbling noise constantly happening when I accelerated.
I replaced the "Top" part (Bladder part) of the EGR valve a couple months back, so I don't think that's the problem. However, one of the check engine codes I've consistently gotten time and time again is the "EGR control circuit fault"....83?
After seafoaming the engine, and no luck with that, I'm wondering if I need to change out the EGR control Solenoid?
The pinging seems to happen anytime I go from a dead stop to acceleration, or just light acceleration while doing a consistent speed. I was doing about 25mph in the neighborhood today, for several seconds and it was constantly pinging.
Idle is about 1000-1100RPM, and timing was checked a couple months ago, and was in the standard range for stock Turbo Coupe's.
what quality fuel and what is the boost level?
I always have used 87 and the Turbo has never EVER put out more than 5-6psi...max. No boost at all when the pinging is occurring.
Are you running premium or regular mode?
Have you tried higher octane fuel in it to see if it goes away?.
Base timing?
The timing curves on the LA ECUs are VERY aggressive.
Are you sure it is pinging and not a exhaust leak?
5-6 psi is below the factory setting.
Could be the egr valve stuck open.
Regular Mode all the time. Haven't tried Premium Brands yet....a light tight on cash if you know what I mean....
10Deg past T.D.C. is timing.
Under WOT conditions, boost gets up to a maximum of 6psi, and then it's like a limiter or something kicks in and the engine recoils and the rpms drop slightly. They'll go back up if I keep holding down the accelerator, but it's as if the engine can't handle any more. When this happens the boost gauge will slightly back off from the 6psi, and like I said, so do the RPMS. I figured that problem might be a fuel issue, and not EGR related. Can't hear any pinging while at WOT, but you never know.
are you chcking the timing with the spout unhooked? \
the reason for my concern with the egr it could be stuck open and your boost could be going out the egr tube ;) and could cause your pinging issue
How Would I check to see if the EGR is staying open?
easiest way is to remove it and see if it is stuck open
it has 2 bolts that hold it to the intake and one large nut that hold the tube from the exhaust inside the egr valve.
10* BTDC or 10*ATDC?
"Past TDC" sounds like it's ATDC, which would be retarded. Also as asked, are you checking timing with the SPOUT connector in or out?
You should be getting at LEAST 10psi boost in Normal mode. That is the calibration on the WGA. You are leaking boost or the WG flapper isn't closing all the way if you aren't getting at least that.
Spend the extra $0.10/gallon on the next fill-up for Mid-grade fuel and see if that helps. The extra couple dollars won't kill you.
Ok, Timing is good. It was at 10* BTDC....with Spout Out.
Also checked out the EGR valve with a Pressure Gauge and it held up just fine. No signs of leakage.
Checked the Vacuum line running from the EGR Control Solenoid to the EGR valve itself, and it appears to have a leak somewhere. That will be replaced today.
MOST IMPORTANTLY though....I got a 1 foot section of brand new vacuum line and hooked it directly up to the EGR Control Solenoid and turned the car on. Despite revving the engine up to 3k while in park, and 2k while In Drive, no vacuum could be felt out of this hose.
What conditions should produce vacuum out of the Control Solenoid? Did I do something wrong? Or is it broken?
If it means anything, I checked the line running from the Vacuum Tree to the EVR, and it has plenty of Vacuum. I could feel it. However, like I said, the line that runs from the EVR to the EGR valve had no vacuum whatsoever, despite my revving the engine in park and drive.
(http://www.tbirdheritage.com/articles/images/eec/evr.gif)
You're not going to get anything out of the EGR system just revving the engine. It's going to activate at part-throttle cruise.
The line from the solenoid to the EGR will not have any vacuum in the "test" conditions you described.
Put voltage to the solenoid and see if it works....
Doesn't the EGR system only activate when the ECM is receiving input from the VSS?
Ok, well the EVR is good. It put out a reading of 70 OHMS, and after letting the car warm up and then putting on a new Vacuum line, there was indeed vacuum. I revved the engine and saw the EGR valve moving.
So now I'm a square one again. Don't know why I'm pinging and can't figure out where my Boost is going.
Do you have the knock sensor unplugged?
Yes, it's connected.
How would I go about checking the "Wastegate" to see if it's stuck open? Also, how can I check to see if the blades in the turbo are hitting the housing? I ask this because at low speeds when I engage the Turbo just briefly, after letting out of the throttle, I've always heard this fluttering noise. It only lasts for a few seconds, but it sound like when you stick a piece of paper into a fan while it's on. A flicking noise, but very briefly. I always thought that was the Turbo Impeller hitting something.
I say for the pinging its the gas I had the same sound from my 92 Lincoln I put 89 in it instead of 87 and it almost dissapeared put hi test in and the pinging went away. I have been since using 87 again but i have no exhaust from the cats back so its loud enuff to quiet the pinging.
You will find the knock sensor in the lower intake. It may or may not be pointing towards the driver's side strut tower.
The previous owner may have unplugged it. From what I've read, unplugging it will prevent the computer from sensing any knock/ping, therefore it won't pull timing.
I'm not 100% on that, though.
Kind of hard to check w/o taking the turbo elbow off and visually inspecting the WG flapper. On the IHI turbo the flapper arm is not in the outlet elbow like the T-3, so you can see it with the elbow off..
You can also remove the c-clip from the WGA arm that controls the flapper and see if it's too "long". Ideally you should have to pull the arm out to connect it to the flapper arm, or put a little air pressure on the WGA to move the arm "out" to engine the flaooer arm. If it just slides on w/ any force, or the flapper arm moves closer to the WGA once disconnected, the arm is holding it open when it thinks it's "closed", thus bleeding boost.
On the pinging, again try a tank of mid-grade gas.....see what happens.
The KS will also interpret any stray engine noise as "detonation"....and pull timing. I stopped using one, kept pulling timing due to valvetrain noise.
Also, I should mention that I physically pryed open the EGR valve with a Screwdriver while at idle and the engine didn't do anything. Didn't really stumbled, and did not stall out.
+3 on Fuel Octane upgrade.
All that's going to tell me is that the Compression Ratio has gone up, as in... EGR exhaust ports are clogged, and after SeaFoaming the engine last week....I'd be a bit confused.
If it's really carboned up to raise your compression that much,
you may need more than sea foam.I might of missed it but did you try higher octane?
No he hasn't....he just likes to argue when folks give him ideas.
How many miles does the car have? Lots if I recall....
Just try it... Like I said, it's what $2-3 extra per tank?
Even a can of octane boost might give him an answer?
Sounds like you have found part of your problem.
The EGR is good, I think the exhaust ports inside the Upper Intake manifold might be clogged though. The thing is, I used SeaFoam last week, so I can't imagine there being that much more to clean out. Is there anyway besides taking off the Upper Intake that I can clean out those ports?
The egr isnt good if your not seeing some change in the way the car runs manually opening it something is stopped up!
seafoam isnt much more then pale oil and some petrol dissilates it dont work miracals. But does make for a neat smoke show.
That doesn't mean the EGR is clogged. I replaced the Lower Part of the Valve a couple months back, and when I did, I made sure to clean the heck out of it.
I see you dont want help. I mean im sitting here TELLING you whats wrong it may not be the valve itself it may be the tube ETC but the idle should change when you manually open it.At very least the inop EGR system is knocking 2-3mpg off if it isnt your cruise RPM detonation (when the EGR works) the computer adds timing/pulls fuel to compensate for the diluted a/f mixture wich you have a LACK of.
Good luck.
Stop arguing AND put the freaking premium in it...Don't think I ever put anything else in any of the 14 I've had... The autos should make 8-9 psi...
Also weak fuel pump comes to mind, especially when it starts to loose RPMs/bog while building boost... Fuel pressure should be verified under boost to be sure...
I put in 91...seemed to help. Car ran better, and didn't hear any pinging. My next planned Modifications to the car were going to be one of those high pressure Walbro Fuel pumps and a Gillis Boost Control Valve.
QUESTION:
Does the Pipe running from the EGR valve to Exhaust Manifold clog easily?
real question: is it that hard to pull off? :hick:
seriously if it aint too bad then yank it and check it out. cant know for sure without actually looking at it.
I'll be doing that soon. What I want to know is if that metal tube that runs from the EGR to the Exhaust Manifold clogs easily, and if so, how does one clean it?
Not unless the car is running PIG rich for a LONG time. The port in the intake is more likely to clog than the tube itself.
it! I don't know what to do anymore. From everything I've gathered, it appears as if I need to make the following Modifications to the car:
1) New High Pressure Fuel Pump (Possibly to solve Power Loss Problem)
2) New Catalytic Converter (Current one rattles and could be plugged, also allowing for power loss)
3) New EGR Valve
4) 2...perhaps 3 cans of SeaFoam to the Engine.
5) New Turbo unit due to possible Turbine play/ hitting the Housing.
I'm scared.....
(Almost every time after I've gotten gas for the car, there will be a strong odor of Gasoline inside the Cabin...it usually wears off after about a minute or so of driving. Never knew would could be causing that.)
well yes the cat could be plugged, but the rattling is just the heat sheild. cut/yank/whatever that sucker off if it bothers you. you can remove the pipe with the cat in it yourself, and bring it to a shop, and they can tell you whether or not its plugged.
Time to buy a new car...
I don't know if you meant to sound serious or sarcastic in your reply, but in all honesty, I should have expected these problems...considering the car had 230k miles on it when I purchased it.
Although looking back at the past 5 months, I've had no real "Mechanical" problems to speak of. The car hasn't died on me (yet), a feat which none of my other 3 T-bird's could lay claim to. And I've had this car just about as long as the other 3.
With that said, the "Pattern" which I've fallen into over the past two years is that I tend to keep these cars for no more than 6 months and then end up selling them for reasons unknown until usually about 1 month before the sell occurs.
So, with those calculations, I shouldn't have this car for much longer. Maybe a month more at the most. And what do you know? All my reasons for selling it have already popped up.
I had the same problem with my TC. I changed the plugs and the problem went away. The old plugs looked good but they weren't gapped properly. I think they were set to 042-045. I couldn't read the correct range on the fan shroud but the last number was 036. I set the new ones to 035.
TC plugs gap .032-.036...
Under boost, the stock ignition system is marginal at the larger gaps...
Well, I installed a new Walbro 190LPH Fuel Pump today. The lack of boost still exists. Gauge reads out to about 6psi but it just won't go any higher. I didn't feel any hesitation this time around, it's just like the Turbo Reached it's limit or something.
I checked the hoses connected to it and the Intercooler and non had cracks or splits.
So now I'm thinking.....
Replace the Turbo or the Cat.... Probably the Cat first...seeing as there is somewhat of a price difference between the two items.
A few More Misc Notes worth Mentioning:
Took off the EGR and it was clean. Took off the IAC and it too was clean. No carbon. I did however hook up a Voltmeter to the IAC Solenoid to check the Ohm reading. According to the read out, I was only getting 1ohm....???
Reset the Idle and adjusted the TPS to .91v, no dead spots were detected during test. Drove around and weird surging idle problem still existed.
Here's a little trick. Lower the downpipe from the turbine elbow and go for a spin. If boost returns you have a block in your exhaust flow.
Do as ether947said and drop the down pipe. The cat on my T/c was plugged up so bad that it wouldn't make any boost. So give it a try.
I took me 3mos to figure it out. I was how could it be the exhaust it is only one year old. It was plugged any way. I dropped the down pipe and everything was back to normal.
Could you guys be more specific? I want to do this, but I have very little experience with the exhaust and locations. Anyone have a diagram of where this downpipe is and where the "Turbine Elbow" is?
Otay ! I don't have a pic or anything but. The down pipe is the exhaust where it bolts up to the rear of the turbo. So crawl under that thing and loosen the 2 bolts that hold the exhaust pipe up to the turbo. Loosen them and let the exhaust pipe hang and go for a run. Oh yeah the turbine elbow if the rear side of the turbo where the exhaust bolts up to it. Don't worry there isn't a gasket between the pipe and the turbine housing. hope this helps you out.
Well, had the local Exhaust shop weld me in a new Catalytic converter. While it appears to have solved the annoying rattle I was experiencing for the past few months, it did not solve my lack of boost problem. Which to me means only one thing. Something in around the Turbo is causing this.
Ok, if this were your guy's car, what would be the first thing to check?
I plan on taking off the "VAM" tommorrow, what problems should I be looking for while it's off? (I'm praying that it has a squirrel carcass in it)
Also, when I crawled under the area where the Turbo is, I thought I saw what was the WGA. I saw a round shaped metal object, with a Metal rod coming out of it. Since I can barely reach it with my arm, is there anything I should check for there?
BTW, is there any chance that the stock boost gauge just isn't reading correctly? And that I've been making 10psi this entire time?
(On a lighter note, the Exhaust guy told me the two bolts holding the end of the transmission and that rubber donut thing to the crossmember were missing.)
Ok, after calling Ford and getting nothing but..."Well....you see son, we just don't have information like that anymore...and you really shouldn't be servicing this car by yourself"....I'm now turning to the forum for help:
I need to know what size bolts fit in the following mount that holds up the Transmission:
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/transmount.jpg)
Thanks in advance if any of you can come up with the correct bolt size. Ford Couldn't.
not sure of the size but lookin at the pic the right one looks broke off.
Is your car an Auto or a 5-speed? I have a TC T-5 trans sitting in my garage, I could try and get the size for you.
A4ld
Well, after 8 hours, I was able to change out the two bolts. The cramped quarters made things very difficult. The bolt on the drivers side went in with no problems, the passenger side bolt however....the thread was stripped. Nightmare. That's what consumed the other 7 1/2 hours.
Seems to have fixed my floorboard vibration when the A/C is turned on. Things seem smoother.
Now, on a more serious note, I bypassed the Boost Controller Solenoid and spliced together the two Hoses. I drove around and the Stock boost gauge read out to about 7psi...slightly more than it has been. So it did increase the boost....slightly. I'm just wondering if I've been getting normal amounts of boost all along and that my gauge is busted. Is this common? Also, can I leave the two hoses spliced together without harming anything?
Have you checked the WGA and flapper to make sure it's closing all the way yet?
NO.
Take the c-clip off the WGA arm that attaches it to the WG flapper on the turbo outlet elbow and see if it's keeping the flapper from sealing all the way. Here's a hint...if you take the c-clip off and remove the WGA arm and close the flapper with your finger, the WGA arm should not be able to reach the stud on the flapper. Technically you should have to pull on the arm (or apply some air pressure to the WGA to move the arm) to get it to seat on the flapper stud when it is fully closed.
We told you to check this weeks ago and you haven't. As usual.
Apologizes, but I have no idea where that stuff is. If you have a diagram or something to show me where this C-Clip and WGA Arm are, that would be wonderful.
Thanks!
You'd think you would have looked for this yourself as many times as it was mentioned to you.
(http://www.turbochuck.com/images/Tbird/2.3T%20Refresh/Drain%20line.JPG)
You can see the flapper arm sticking out the bottom of the turbo. The WGA is the round thing partially obscured by the drain line.
Thanks for the image. I see the WGA, and I think I see two "arms". Which one is which? And where is this "Flapper"?
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/wga.jpg)
The flapper is up inside the turbo outlet....
(http://www.turbochuck.com/images/Tbird/turbooutlet_1.JPG)
Your IHI is a little different in that the flapper is not in the outlet elbow, but they function the same...
you have been watching stock gauges and thinking they were close? Mistake number one..... Get yourself an autometer or something, they pop up on here or NATO for sale all the time, just be done with it!
Mistake number two, take what Chuck and people like him are saying for gospel and fix it :D
If you run a line from the wastegate to the turbo housing, that is an automatic 10# whether the gauge says so or not (as long as all else is working properly)... If you are going to use a gilles, just put it in the middle of the line then...
Frank M.
Please elaborate more on "Running a line from the wastegate to the Turbo Housing". Do you mean, take that rubber hose coming out of the Round diaphragm and connect it anywhere on the Turbo??
Just out of curiosity, since this thread was originally started to solve me Pinging problem....is there a possibility that my Knock Sensor could be causing this problem?
Most of the time when under boost, I get to about 6-7psi, and then there is a smooth loss of power. Not a hard recoiling of the engine, but like a limiter has been kicked in. I can see the RPMS drop slightly, as does the boost. And since I have been pinging.....perhaps I should disconnect the sensor and go for a spin....
Doesn't hurt to try...just listen and go easy.
How bout a picture :D ....its as simple as A. to B.!! A is a little dark, but that is just where the rubber line comes off of the wastegate. There is a plug now in mine where yours needs to go (B.). On the 87/88 IHI's there is a T coming off of there one coming from the wastegate, and the others to the BCS. Disconnect it to the BCS and cap that side off so that there is only one going to the wastegate. This will give you 10#........ HTH
10# assuming that the Wastegate is good right? And if I wanted more than 10lbs, how would I achieve that?
With a A4LD transmission rebuild... A head gasket replace... A engine rebuild... A turbo replacement...
In other words with high boost, that high millage stuff will probably take a dump on you...
Guessing the transmission has long since been rebuilt, they usually last about 100-120K, yep time for another one...
That is all true.
However, if the Wastegate is bad, and I do perform this operation (Sounds to me like I just have to disconnect and plug the line running to the BCS) will I still get the 10lbs of boost?
What do you think?
Less typing, more wrenching.
Have you checked to see if the flapper is closing all the way?
Knowledge helps you understand... some info on wastegate operation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate
Well, I think I found my answer. I took off the small inlet pipe in the front of the turbo and exposed the Turbine and shaft. I grabbed it, and there was slight side to side movement. Not much, but it was there.
Turbo Time?
There is always a little play, especially when there is no oil around the bushings. If it's not contacting the sides, it's not an issue. If it was "worn" enough to not make boost you'd know it.
Try again.
How about this...you checked that WG flapper yet?
Here's the problem, I can't find an Air Pump (That isn't for tires) with a Gauge on it, that has an open connection that I can stick a Vacuum hose onto. Not at Harbor Freight, nor anywhere else. I was going to hook up a pump to the wastegate, apply 9.5-10psi to the thing, and see if that connecting rod moves.
Problem is, I can't find a bloody pump anywhere that's not for tire usage.
You can find a tappered adapter to use on a bicycle pump that is used for inflating toys, etc. It's not all that critical.
What you are looking for is not to see if the arm moves, but to see if the arm is holding the flapper open when at rest.
The pump is to aid reinstalling the arm onto the flapper stud because if it's set up properly, you'd need to pull the arm out of the WGA to reattach it to the flapper stud.
Until you verify that this is working/closing as it should...all the rest of this is useless.
Please enlighten me as to where I can find an adapter that will fit on the schrader valve of a bike pump....
And how will I know if I'm applying 10lbs of pressure or less without a gauge?
I told you what to look for....I'm sure you've seen places that sell inflatable toys and . Go to Walmart for christ's sake. They even have them with some of the vacuum testers at the auto parts places.
Again, YOU DO NOT NEED THE PUMP TO SEE IF THE FLAPPER IS CLOSING?
You know what...figure it out on your own...I'm tired of telling you the same ed thing 4 times.....
Dammit to hell! It is closing. I went under there today and grabbed the rod. I had to pull pretty hard to get the thing to open. If there is a spring down there keeping things shut, it's pretty strong, because I had to seriously yank on that rod to move anything.
And another thing, how do you go about removing this C-clip???? Where is the thing? The wastegate is not only under the Turbo, but the only way I could actually see this rod was to crawl under the car, and even then It was an awkward position to reach up and grab that rod. I would have taken your advice if I actually knew how to get to everything without burning or ripping my flesh.
that doesnt mean the flapper is closed.
i see you edited to add the second paragraph while i was typing, so let me add this. burning and ripped flesh is part of workin on cars. if you cant handle it, buy sumthin with a warranty. go out and do whatever it takes to find out the information to answer these guys questions. i dont care if you hafta remove the freakin turbo to check the WGA rod and flapper, jus do it.
diagnostics over the internet is hard enough w/o the owner of the car fightin the entire process by arguing and not doin as they are told. all you are doin is makin things worse, and aggravating people. get the right answers to the right questions in this thread and maybe more people would be willing to help ya out, or return to helpin you.
that is all.
Ok, I'm at a loss right now. I just have no idea what is what. I've seen the pictures, but the descriptions on what to do to what are just too vague for me to follow. I keep hearing to take the C-clip off the WGA arm. But I don't know where the C-clip is, nor the "Arm". I know of the rod that comes out of the WG, and then it attaches to a flat metal piece which rotates when you grab it and pull really hard. I'm assuming that controls the flapper.
Then I really get confused when I'm told to use my finger to close the flapper, and then something is not supposed to be able to touch something else? I'm sorry, maybe I'm just slow.
I was hoping to get the Air Pump and just apply pressure to the WG because that seemed so much simpler to do. Just watch to see if the Rod moved more than it should.
please go back and re-read chucks instructions in post #54 (http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showpost.php?p=160271&postcount=54)
follow them step by step. quit lookin for an easy way out. youre only confusing yourself.
(http://www.dsherwood-guitartuition.co.uk/retard.jpg)
That's a pretty good representation of how I've looked (and felt) for the past 24hours or so.
[SIZE="1"]
The creepy thing is that if I grew out my hair, I would look just like that guy...[/SIZE]