I was out working on the bird earlier. I put in the new dimmer switch and got my low beams back. So while I had it all apart I installed the relay for the auto on/off headlights. I checked the old relay and it didn't switch on and off. So the new one should make it work. I plugged it in and the parking lights came on. The car was off and the auto switch was in the off posistion. THe head lights were off also. Anytime the relay is pluged in the parkling lights are on but no headlights. Also when I do turn the auto lights switch on and cover the sensor the headlights still don't come on. Yes the catr was turned on during the last test. Does anyone have any ideas on where to start. Also does anyone have the wiring diagrams for this. I looked in my chilton and Haynes and found nothing. So if anyone can and wants to please help.
I found the diagrams that I needed. When I was looking I found in there what is called a Light sens AMP. Does anyone know what this looks like or where it is located under the dash. I got those diagrams over here
http://www.foxthundercats.com/tech/wiringdiagrams.htm
Now just the trace everything down. I thinking that it isn't the headlight switch it is only about a year old. Yes it is the one for the auto on off lights.
The 84 EVTSM says: Behind LH side of I/P. It has a flat connector (all the wires side by side). It has five wires to it. W/P H, O/W H, R/Y H, DB/O D, P/O D
The power to the Light Sensor Amplifier through fuse 18 is hot in start or run. That's the R/Y H wire.
I suspect there is a hole in the dash so light can shine on the light sensor amp?
Maybe it has to be in gear for them to turn on? I dont know but newer trucks with DRL have to be in gear for the lights to come on. :dunno:
No, my car has the same system. The lights will come on whenever it is dark and the key is on. Are you sure the second relay is good?
im looking,,
for those of you who got the evtm cd,, im on pages 81-87
brb
---------------
i see that now,, there should be two relays for the auto on/off system.
In a nutshell, his problem is that nothing works except for park lamps, and according to system operation,, they are mafunctioning as well.
brb again, doing some staring at some of this.
-----------------------------------------------
Go pull out your hazard flasher and see what happens (cause other than that second relay,, this shiznit gets to be a squirrel nest of circle jerking through these loop back patty wack give a dog a bone relay mazes.)
---------------------------------------
well now,, your problem does not seem to be an option in the shop manual,, back to the evtm. I think we need to focus on what could a faulty park lamp system have on auto lamps. Pull that hazard flashe first. that might make them go out and if it does, then test the system.
brb again,, still looking.
-----------------------------------------
Does your rear lights also come on when that one relay is plugged in?
how did you test the new/old relay,, sorry,, have to ask.
ill assume you have tail and license plate lights on as well when this replacement relay is installed.
the only way so far i can see power deliver to those circuits is through the multi funcion switch in the column or through the hazard flasher. Since either could be a problem, pull the hazard button thing out and see if that changes anything. Next pull out the hazard flasher. the multifunction sw is the path of current flow for the hazard flasher. If the flasher has damage, it could be stuck , tap on it while installed and see if that changes something also. It wouldnt be the first time a turn/hazard multi function switch went bad.
ill post pics tomorrow, should be pages 81-96 which will cover all basis for auto lamps and external lamps.,,,,sorry tired now.
Thanks for the help guys. I tested the realy with battery power. I just found the coil part on the relay and tested to see if it would switch on and off. The old ford realy didn't and the new one did. That is all I did for a test. The relays look the same and they have the same amount of pins. I haven't been back out there uet to test anything else. I do know that since I put the wiper delay box in the car the auto lights haven't been working. That was over a 2yrs ago. Siince then I have put in the new headlight switch. Trying to solve another problem and that wasn't it. So let it go until I had to replace the dimmer switch. I thought the relay might be toast so I bought a new one. So when I tested the relay and it didn't work I was like YES! But now this. You are right all the parking lights come on the front the rears, But no headlights. Even if I cover the sensor I get no headlights. Also the parking lights are on any time the relay is pluged in. Car on or off. The lights used to only come on if the switch on the headlight swtich was on and the car is on the posistion. It didn't matter if you are in gear or not. According to the wiring diagrams there isn't a second realy that I see. So if there is where would that be. I have been tracing out any wiring that goes to the exterior lights. Please post that info when you get the time I could really use it.
When you say the Light AMP is on the left behind the I/P what does the I/p stand for? I just got up and the brain is jelly still.
I/P = instrument panel
I believe the light sensor amplifier is the the thing you put finger on when you were testing it. The light sensor.
If the autolamp relay is energized (picked) both the parking lights and the headlights should be on. Even if everything is turned off.
The relay is picked by voltage on the white with purple hash wire from the light sensor amplifier. Do you have a test light or meter you can stick on this wire?
You need to find out if the relay is picked when it shouldn't be.
If it is picked then someone may have messed with the red with yellow stripe wire that goes to turn on the headlights.
If you don't have a test light, get one. They are cheap.
Tell us what you have on each of the wires to the relay, light or no light.
I see only one relay in the circuit in the 84 EVTSM.
I have a DVOM. Just need to grab it form my buddy. I left it over there while working on the wiring for his fiero Converison. I haven't messed with the wiring myself as soon as I get the meter back I will test that wire. should be tomorrow.
Test all the wires on the relay while you are in there.
what is your addy, there are lamp circuits from pages 77-120 in this evtm. Ill send you a copy since its probably gonna take less time than what it would for my uploading on 24k dialup.
did you get anywhere troubleshooting?
i know the 84 is much different but wiring layout should be same colors ect except for the extras on the 86 and up.
When you get around to to it,, do the steps i posted before,,,
also,, i want you to look at page 89/90 where the hazard circuit branches off.
also,,, we need to look at these diagrams and figure out how to jumper / bypass the photocell. I dont have time to right now but maybe i can later. someone else might be able to cypher it also.
we are dealing with either a short circuit (since power is applied to the park lamps with either the key on or off)
0r.......
Faulty timing circuit in the photocell, with an additional issue with why the headlamps dont come on.
I wonder if your missing a relay ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hummm,, just thought of something else,,,,,,,, for the headlamps that is.......
When you pop the hood, to the left and to the right next to the hood height adjustment there is a ground wire. This should be a littel tiny wire with a little tiny lug on the flat surface of the crossmember. do you have those hooked up?
and more,,,,,,,,,,,,:hick:
and some more,,,,,,,,,,,,
and more,,,:D
and more more more:hick:
I got the DVOM today and I'm off tomorrow so I should get my lazy ass out there and do these test and such. Thanks for all the info. If you still want to e-mail it to me go ahead at ipsd1@cebridge.net
was there some part of "dial up" you missed,,:hick: :beatyoass:
no,, i mean an address for a cd.
wow,,
so,,
after looking i have questions,,,,,lol,, you got a lot of questions to answer,,,:hick:
do you have............
a light sensor on the rear view mirror? (this would be the high/low beam sensor)
have you found the dash mounted light sensor as well?
can you make the headlamps work by either givng power or giving them a ground?
if the car were here, we'd done figured it out.
Nope I don't have the sensor on the rearview mirror. Mine is the old style. with the pull for the main headlights and then a rotating for the auto on/off part of the lights. I seen the little holes in the dash for the sensor but I haven't dug that far up under the dash to get to it. Hopefully I can get this snading done on th ecougar and get out to the bird this afternoon.
Jcassidy's EVTSM page 81 shows two relays. One for the headlights and one for the parking lights.
Your car has one relay with two sets of contacts. One set of contacts for the headlights and one set for the parking lights.
I suspect you have the wrong relay installed. It probably only has one set of contacts.
jcassidy's EVSTM page 82 shows the light amplifier assembly. this looks the same as the '84.
Your car does not have the auto dim feature. This was only available in Lincolns for '84.
To get to the light amplifier assembly, the shop manual says:
Remove the intrument panel pad and upper finish panel.
In other words, take the top off your dash.
Scott, your EVTM is an 87 correct? The 83 84 system is different than the auto lamp feature on the later cars.
there is an easy question in the EVTM lotto / lounge if you want a copy.
correct,, There is so much in here that is interchangeable with many year cars/trucks ect but its built around the ,,oh,,, 85-88 id say.
i mentioned earlier that i knew his 84 was a little different thats why i had so many quesitons. I remember both of my 84 coug's were set up wayyy different than the 85+. I do know that while in the junk yard, i saw the photo sensor mounted just infront of the driver on the dash assembly for the 84 setup.
this device was relocated to the square cover / knockout on the top center of the 85 and up dash systems.
the auto headlamp system would be controlled by the dash mounted sensor while the auto dim setup would be mounted on the rear view mirror.
further,, and on a side note,, did anyone catch page 87 closely??????????????? notice that control or warning panel in the overhead??????????? just above the rear view mirror???????
ive never seen that on a fox yet,, anyone here seen it?
That is in the Mark VII's. Why its in a cougar/bird EVTM I duno.
another thing,, totally unrelated to the problem im sure but,,,,,,,
make sure your sensor lense is clean and free of debris,, it might think its night time due to dirt /dust / armorall / soft drink / spray cleaner / ect ect
has nothing to do with why the headlamps dont come on.
im like softtouch, betcha your plugging in the wrong relay type.
if you can take a pic of the bottom contact side of that relay,, i can tell you how to apply power,, and use a meter to read continuity across contacts energized both static and with power.
sometimes its nice to have an old power supply from a PC laying around just for shop stuff that require decent amperage and 12v / 5v applications.
The 2 relay's look the same and they have the same number of pins in the same order. The new on has a diagram on top. I tested the old and new one as fara as makeing them turn on. The new does the old doesn't. I'll get you a pic of them both later today.
Here are those pics of the relays.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s188/ipsd1/relays.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s188/ipsd1/relays3.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s188/ipsd1/relays4.jpg)
I did test for voltage on the wires to the relay. So it is like this the Green wire is 12V hot all the times. The White/Purple wire had 0 volts reguardless of key posistion. Then the Orange/White wire had 12 hot at all times. Both the brown and the Red/yellow didn't do anything.
I did more testing is seems you guys are right. The new relay is the wrong realy. Then new one pin 3 put power out to pin 5 when closed and to pin 4 when switched on. That is part of the problem. The relay signal wire is always on. Need to figure out why. The auto light siwtch is off. Need to dign in and find the light senor up there. I guess you said I need to remove the dash pad and upper dash part? I did find a ford number in the base of the old number. E3AB-14A672-B1A
I am guessing you made the voltage checks with the relay unplugged. With no voltage on the brown wire the parking lights should not be on.
The voltages are correct for the relay unplugged or with the correct relay and everything off.
The new relay with the diagram on the cover is the wrong relay.
It has a normally closed and a normaly open contact. One is made when the relay is de-energized and the other when the relay is energized.
The relay you need has two normally open contacts. They are both made when the relay is energized.
Your relay shows both ends of the coil going to connector pins on the relay.
The relay you need has one end of the relay coil grounded by the mounting hardware.
I think if you get the correct relay you should be home free. (knocking on wood)
I'm a slow typer.
I would get the correct relay before i would pull the dash top off.
i heard that shiznit!!
but,, from what i saw in the jy,, it appears as though the sensor can be removed by taking out the instrument cluster,, from there you can get your grubby paws on it.
I just did some searching on the Right realy. With the Ford number listed earlier Borg Warner site tells me it is a R647, Rock auto says RY46T Standard brand. is the part by application. The
Dash top removal = pretty easy. Just have to watch the 4 screws around the defroster vents...they like to fall down into the ductwork. Highly recommend a magnetic screwdriver for that. Other than that, the whole thing pops off and you have access to the sensor easily.
Try this:
With no relay plugged in, the ignition switch in "run", the autolamp switch in "on" and the light sensor covered, check for voltage on the white with purple hash wire.
Have voltage? Uncover the light sensor. Voltage goes away?
If that works your light sensor is good.
On your relay:
You have two connectors on one side and three connectors on the other side.
The two connectors are the "hot at all times" inputs.
The outside two connectors of the three in a row are the outputs to your lights.
The center connector of the three is one end of the relay coil. This is where the white with purple hash wire goes.
There is a metal piece that slides into the grooves on the side of the relay. This is the ground for the other end of the relay coil.
No ground no workie.
Thanks for the info. I retested the Ford realy and it worked using the center pin as the power and the wire piece out the side as a ground. I bet that is the problem. The realy was in the dash floating around. The little clip that holds it on to it mount is missing. So I'll give is a shot with the relay zip tied to the mount for it. I bet this has been the problem the whole time. I'll post back after I try it out.