We've had quite a few threads recently about MN12 Birds/Cats and I keep saying they are worthless in my area. Here's some examples:
94 Bird, 4.6, 151K, $850
http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/car/330333339.html
94 Bird, 4.6, 168K, $1695
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/car/329778014.html
95 Bird, 4.6, $1000
http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/car/329615642.html
94 Bird, 4.6, leather, loaded, 94K, $2500
http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/car/329573387.html
94 Bird, 4.6, 162K, $1300
http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/car/329299478.html
94 Bird, 3.8, 78K, $1695
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/car/327209162.html
97 Bird, 4.6, Pearl Paint, 58K, $3200
http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/car/327018905.html
These are NICE cars with no problems or damage, yet they're going for peanuts. I wonder if it's like this everywhere or if it's a local epidemic?
I've never been a fan of the MN-12's. Occasionally I'll see an early Cougar that I don't think is too bad....but then I remember that it's an MN-12.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=217469322&dealer_id=570110&car_year=1995&model=TBIRD&num_records=100&make2=&start_year=1989&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&search_type=both&distance=50&make=FORD&color=&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceASC&address=61603&advanced=y&end_year=1997&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=9
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=213760196&dealer_id=56480680&car_year=1996&model=TBIRD&num_records=100&make2=&start_year=1989&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&search_type=both&distance=50&make=FORD&color=&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceASC&address=61603&advanced=y&end_year=1997&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=49
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=218537559&dealer_id=832050&car_year=1997&model=TBIRD&num_records=100&make2=&start_year=1989&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&search_type=both&distance=50&make=FORD&color=&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceASC&address=61603&advanced=y&end_year=1997&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=9
I'm half tempted to buy the 3rd one so I have a matching set.
Things to look for on the 96-97 are:
16in rims
Traction Control
Sun Roof
Full gauge dash
System Sentry
4 Wheel Disc brakes
And one that is not Red, Green, Or Pastel Blue.
It's like that here as well - a '94 or '95 would be lucky to pull in $1500 IF it had the 4.6. A 3.8 model would be almost worthless. YOu MIGHT get $2500 for a '97 model. Of course, given the MN12 rust problem and the fact that the newest one is now 10 years old, there wouldn't be many left in Nova Scotia worth buying...
One thing to remember: Most MN12's are just now at the point that Fox cars were a few years ago - still plenty of 'em to be found, and not quite old enough to be desirable. They also had a model run of 9 years to choose from, where the aero Fox only had 6 (and with two distinctly different looks each, for T-Bird and Cougar). As more and more of 'em fade away their prices will gradually start coming up
My buddy was selling his 94 Bird, took him about a year. Started at $1800 and finally moved a $600. It was in good shape, except for it being in primer.
There were 3 different body style changes from 89-97. But the most drastic change was 96 where they had to change the hood to clear the newer 4.6 hence the big bulge in the middle of the hood. It also got wider side molding. Plus you have to remember that 95 was the last year for the super coupe.
96-97
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r170/slamedcat/97.jpg)
94-95
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r170/slamedcat/95.jpg)
89-93
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r170/slamedcat/MH162859-8sm.jpg)
All i know is there kinda cheap and i would not mind having a supercoupe painted Yellow and black with the new FORD GT rims and somewhere around 400-500RWHP.
You will be looking for a long time to find a '97 with "full gauge dash" as they didn't exist. 1997 had a few cutbacks, the instrument cluster being one of them.
However, the oil pressure gauge on the "full gauge dash" was not really a gauge. It used an oil pressure warning light switch rather than a true sending unit, so the gauge didn't exactly measure actual oil pressure.
I never really heard anyone wanting the System Sentry, either :)
My 96 has the Systen Sentry. Its nice since it tells me that coolant, fuel, and I think oil are low. But it doens't have the Traction Control. The only reason I like the idiot lights is because it takes the guess work out of why the check gauges light is on.
Yes when the fuel level gets down to the last gallon the check gauges light comes on. As for the full instrument cluster I heard about that but never really looked close enough at the 97 since I could never seem to find one.
Mine I can auctually see the needle on the oil pressure guage move when I start the car. It slowly builds pressure.
Actually I think there were 4 different ones, that is a '91-'93, 89-90 had a different front bumper and rear bumper too.
This is my buddies old '89 3.8L Bird
It's fairly commonly known that the oil pressure gauge is in fact an idiot warning light.
Look at the "sending unit". You will see that it's not a true sending unit, but rather a warning lamp switch. I think ~5-7psi or so and the gauge swings up to the normal. It does not measure or report actual oil pressure other than if there is any or not.
As far as the speed of your oil pressure "gauge" upon engine startup, look at the speed that the gauge moves when you turn the key to on, but the engine is off. You'll see the gauge itself is not exactly fast to move to L.
The system can be modified to actually report as a normal oil pressure gauge would, somewhat. But in stock form, it's actually a fancy oil pressure warning light.
Engine RPM and engine temperature would also make a true oil gauge move throughout the band.
As far as electric traction control, that is controlled via the ABS system, but you could have ABS and not the electric traction control. You could have electric traction control, "traction-lok" rear axle, or none.
The optional systems sentry, was included on the 1997's instrument cluster, standard. Door ajar, low washer fluid, low coolant idiot lamps all had symbols in the 1997's instrument cluster. However, the 1997's instrument cluster lacks an oil pressure gauge and volt gauge. The traction control disable button, if equipped, was moved to center console (under lid) on the 1997s.
I've got an '94 and '97 (both 4.6Ls).
I'm aware that the bumper cover and hood changed (and in 95-97, even the headlights) - I installed a '93 T-Bird bumper cover onto my '91 when I was starting to do the body on it because I had to do it anyway (the original one had a big hole in it) and I liked the style of the '93-4 bumper better.
Aside from those minor bolt-on changes, though, and some changed to body mouldings and claddings, the actual steel body of the MN12 Bird was unchanged through its entire model run. The Fox body was completely changed in '87 - every single inch of sheet metal and glass was different, except the hood (and in the case of Turbo Coupes the hood was changed too :hick:). There's no denying that 83-86 and 87-88 are two distinctly different body styles, as very few body parts will interchange - only the hood, as mentioned above.
Anybody could bolt a '97 bumper cover and grille onto an '89 though...
The fact that an '89 is so similar to a '97 is what makes an '89 seem so much newer than an '88. When people see a fox car they see an 80's car. When they see an MN12 they see a 90's car. 90's cars are still too new to attract the eye of collectors or to stir up nostalgia among the general public. That is why they're so cheap right now - much the same as a half decade ago people were giving their Foxes away. Some people still are selling foxes cheap, actually - foxes are still in that grey area between modern beater or classic collectible. They are only just starting to tilt toward classic.
The same thing happened when I bought my first car. Back in 1990, a '78 Trans Am was too new to be considered collectible, so I bought one for $600. Try and find one for that much now - bring a flatbed if you do. Heck, back then people were taking the glass out, welding in cages, and going hillbilly racing (and beating the supreme shiznit out of them) on dirt tracks against Mach 1's, Monte Carlos, Novas, Baracudas, Chevelles, etc. Just like they did with our cars through the late 90's...
Do enough waxing and keep up on body care and that rust problem should vanish. Not enough people take good care of thier vehicles. I would not mind an Mn12 but i have my new edge cougar so i dont really need another cougar.
This statement is totally open to opinion considering there is probably on an Mn12 board somewhere a thread about our foxes with the exact same opinion and gist to it.
Worthless in my area is a fact, not an opinion. The market is flooded, nobody wants them, and so when they do sell it's for so cheap it's ridiculous. I have no idea what the rest of the country is like, but in the Pacific Northwest, MN12's are only worth s metal.
Foxes on the other hand are going nuts. V6 Birds/Cats that 2-5 years ago were $200 beaters are now $800. The $500 TC "driver" is now a $2000 TC. The "nice" cars that did bring in $2500 and up are now SELLING in the $6000-$7000 range regularly. Low mileage cars are hitting $10,000 without batting an eye. Sure you can still find $100 clapped out rusted to all get out bashed in clunkers, but you can find ANY year Tbird as a clunker for cheap.
In this area you would be lucky to buy a v8 96 97 for less than 4000k.
The few 97's I have found are in the 3500-4500 range. I had a black with grey leather 97 with the 4.6 and it really was a great car. I had a flash of stupidity and traded it and bought a new exploder, which it actually did with 37k on it.
Exactly and i wish i would have found an Mn12 instead of the "New Edge". I like My 99 but i would like a 97 4.6 Mn12 Cougar even more.
i think my next car, when or if i go newer down the road might be an SC. ill still have love for the Fox bodies
That one pic is of an '89-'90 Supercoupe....and there were just 3 versions of MN-12 Birds...NOT counting the differences between the SC and the non-SC versions..
Not too good with the older MN12s, but I don't see the proper rear bumper with ground effects, nor do I see the ground effects on the side to be an SC. Almost looks like it's simply primer on the side.
did you pop the hood on it? Hmm first time I seen a SC with no GFX or 16" rims. Must be a sleeper SC. :D I see it has the SC front bumper, but nothing else.
EDIT: Jeremy beat me too it.
if i really was just thinking of a MN12 this might come to mind also.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CUSTOM-1993-MARK-VIII_W0QQitemZ270120305641QQihZ017QQcategoryZ6305QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Also if you go to look at one most definatly check the diff cover for cracks or oil leaks. The way they are mounted into the rear carrier leaves alot to be desired.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r170/slamedcat/IRS-Subframe-pic7.jpg)
If you look at the diff you can see where the cover is used as a mounting point.
Thats the same way the IRS is in the Cobar's, if fact, the diff carriers are interchangable. If they dont have a problem with breakage, kind of hard to think negatively about the way they are on the MN12's right;)
If you plan on putting down any kind of HP or drag racing it you need to get the aftermarket brace for it. I have seen alot of them where the diff cover either cracked or completely broke.
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=80817
I ran slicks on mine and never broke it, and trust me I pounded it with the slicks, held the burnout til the tires "bit in" quite a few times.
I know I sound like I'm being a dick and just triing to argue, but the MN12s aren't that bad. Everything will break eventually if you pound it hard enough. If you are in the market for a drag car, you want something light, not huge and heavy like an MN12, so the diff shouldn't be an issue.
No problem. I'm just stating what I have picked up along the way since I bought mine in Oct. I have seen alot of broken diff covers on diff forums while reading.
The MN12 would be more apt for a road corse than a drag strip with the way it is set up. And as for being big they realy arn't that big and heavy.
Thats the on thing I don't understand about the GM guys that put these cars down as non competitive and family cars. What would you call the 80's grand Prix and Monte Carlos?
good points, I know they are more suited for road course too. Gotta love that IRS. My 5.0L MN12 Cougar handled amazing compared to my Foxes.
And yeah the '80's GP and monte are boats. :hick:
I have a few more question I would like an answer for that you guys might know.
1. Why is there a spout connector under the hood on my 96?
2. Why is there an EEC connector in the glove box?
I dunno? The only MN12 I've been close to was my mother's. She bought it new in 97 as a final-year car (Dark Green Metallic on grey cloth V6). The interior went to plastic hell in months but other then that (and the less then stellar mileage from the wheezing V6 in a boat that heavy) it had no problems. At 100K when she traded it in it still looked new on the outside.
the spout connector in the 4.6 cars is called an octane adj. pull it and it backs the timing down 3*. and the interior is junk. at the shop i work at we have a bunch of customers with them. the interiors litterly fall apart from normal wear and tear. mechanically they are sound though. i kinda like them. the mark 8 is nicer but they have the same problems with the int trim.
Do you have two or just one of those short plugs at the shock tower? One is an octane plug, used to remove timing. If you do have two, the other is to remove timing control from the computer.
I believe that is the test connector for the speed sensitive steering.
Too much plastic in the interior. The seats are horrible. My 97 had the low back leather seats and there was no back support. After a cross country trip my back was wrecked for a month. That didn't happen when I drove my 87 from WA to TX with the TC seats. That and the fact that my wifes 3.5 V6 makes more power than the 4.6 V8... sad!
They are also very expensive to maintain and not easy to work on. If it breaks it goes to the dealer. I'm glad I got rid of mine.
I think there is only one but why would I have to remove timeing from the computer it is a coil pack setup. There is no way to set base timing on it.
Yes, setting the base timing on a distributor-based engine is one of those functions used by the plug. But it's also used for other diagnostics. The SCs, which also had the distributorless ignition, had both a "spout" and an "octane" plug.
After reading this I still like my 94 Cougar XR7. It only cost me $200 with body damage. That is amost fixed. I only have $400 total into it now and that inculdes the paint I bought. All in all I like the mn-12 not near as much as I like my 84 turbo coupe but all in all they are nice cars. I know the 4.6 in mine has way more power than my old 88 cat 3.8l. They seats are comfy just not as racecar like as my birds. I also like the wrap around style of the dash in the 94 up mn'12's. I did almost buy at 94 brand new once. So I might be a little partial on the subject. All in all the Mn-12's are nice cars but they aren't a Fox Bird/Cougar by any means. So if you want a nice car that is still a bird/cougar go ahead and buy a Mn-12 at least there are front engind rear drive. Unlike all these import and many domestic cars/vans/trucks out there. I will also note that they did some changes to the radiator support between 93 and 94. The only differences is things are reworked to accept Air Bag sensors and such. The brackets for the rad and the condesor are in different locations. So I had to make new holes when I put the 93 rad support in my 94. Nothing major other than making mounting holes for things.
Actually, you can see that the early 4.6L in the MN12 did in fact have both. They are not the same thing. I think later MN12 4.6L (1996+) did change.
The octopus is strangling the motor!!!!
:laughing:
I confirmed it is for the speed sensitive system, which Ford calls "EVO" (Electronic Variable Orifice).
You will also find another EEC-type test connector under the hood near the battery and left shock tower, if your vehicle is equipped with ABS. That connector is for the ABS system.
Did you or any other family member treat the dash with stuff like turtle wax tire shine? Thats what i use and the dash in the 87 still has not cracked.
I love the wrap around interior my 94 cougar had. if it would fit in my 86, i would swap it out in a heartbeat.
you can make anything fit. Time Money and and a DD are needed though
I had a 90 Super Coupe 5spd , aka the money pit. Love the ride and the power, mine had some serious wheel hop. The one thing I loved about the car is it's motor man it just kept pulling and pulling. What I hated about it was the fact the dealer ships never stocked a thing for it. Even the Autozones, and Orielys, Pep Boys never even had my alternator when it went out. wtf
Also the abs pump motor went out twice money money money. shiznit for them is ridiculously expensive and the sparkplug change the first time man. Atleast a few years ago they were.
loved that car wish i would've never got rid of it!
(http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/6224/oldride2ik1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6215/oldridesv1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
I had a '92 5 speed. Ran the piss out of it, broke it, fixed it, broke it again. I hope I never see it again. It gave me nightmares.
The dash never cracked, it was everything else. All the dash panels "rattled", the console broke, the shifter surround broke, the door panels fell off. All replaced when it was under warranty and they still broke again. Just not well designed or put together at all. It was the first new car my mother ever bought and she babied it. I'd hate to see what a trashed 97's interior look like. That was the only sore spot of that car...
Ive kinda always wanted an 89-90 xr7 5sp or 94-95 sc 5sp pretty much for the rarity. What sucks is that last year the junkyard 4 or 5 miles down the road got a 5sp xr7. It had over 230k miles on it though, I figure at least it was well driven and not sent to the junker with blown headgaskets at 70k miles.
There were only around 3,000 5sp xr7's and about 1,300 94-95 5sp sc's made.
I still wish I would have bought my 94' back from my ex. It had it all, 4.6, ground effects, fog lights, auto temp, auto lights, roof, and keyless. Car drove and handled just like a mustang, except for the weight, and the ground effects really helped the cars look. It was a MUCH BETTER car than the 94' convertible GT I had once. I think our foxes are much better looking cars, but the performance of my 94' was so much nicer. I will own one again, so I hope the price stays low on used ones for awhile. :D And the ABS brakes where incredible. Thing stopped on ice better than most cars on dry pavement
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/516625/fullsize/86-94-89.jpg)
whats up with the chevy with thoes fords? they don't get along do they? remember friends don't let friends drive chevys.
i paid 1400 for my 94 with a 4.6 150xxx miles and a new trans. A/c works and is in pretty good shape
Yea, well, she's my ex, and it's her car. NOT mine. :D
The fox in the pic is now yellow.
I wouldn't mind getting one, though the t-birds are better looking than the cougars. There are a couple sitting in a local car lot. One cougar, one t-bird. Think I might check them out later today.
I don't care what people say about the wing... I can't believe
that is the same car!
I love the wing, and one day it will sit higher than the roof line which is what I wanted originaly. here's a link at Eric's site for a little bit of history on the car.
http://www.coolcats.net/cotm/2002_06.html
There seems to be allot of Ohio people on here. Maybe we could start a Spring or Fall CatJam get together somewhere near Mayhem around columbus in the future. Just a one day thing kinda like what Mayhem has been doing. But that's for another thread.
I know allot of people aren't to crazy about the MN12's, but after owning my 94' I would own one again if I could. I was actually looking to replace my mach1 with a 94-97 cougar, but couldn't find what i wanted at the time and then realized I needed a truck.....and a trailer. Now i have a truck and access to a trailer, so in a few years I'll hunt me up one the MN12's again. It has to have the skirt (wat i call ground effects), sunroof, traction control (of course) and the 4.6.
Went and check em out today. They were both 95' the cat was an xr7 and the bird was an lx. No price on em though.
I believe all 95 cats were XR-7's, and aside from the SC model I think all '95 Birds were LX's...
Edit: Actually, I might be the wrong one. It does look like the T-Bird side was all LXs, starting in 1993 (aside from the SC option - last year being 1995). I guess even having quite a bit of experience with them still leaves a large door open to learning. :sorry:
I know for sure that all 94's were XR7's and am pretty sure that continued through 97'. It also looks that way from eric's site. From 93' - 97'.
Actually, I might be the wrong one. It does look like the T-Bird side was all LXs, starting in 1993 (aside from the SC option - last year being 1995). I guess even having quite a bit of experience with them still leaves a large door open to learning. :sorry:
Hey thats the Razzi GFX kit right? I had them on my '91. I liked them, looks cool and effectivly hid my rotted out Rockers LOL.
I know that is 96 and 97 you could get a "sport" package with bigger rims and breaks and over all better suspention stuff but it was still labled as a LX. Which realy confuses the hell out of me why they did that.
I've had Fox body cars............and not one can ride, corner or accelerate like my 92' Super Coupe stock. A fox body rides like a dump truck. Sorry, a fox body is a nice car...........just not as nice as an MN-12.
$20 says a stock TC will lay a whoopin on a SC in any handling test. Of course the base cars ride like trucks, use the fox that actually came with a suspension!
I have to agree with CougarXR/7. The mn12's handle allot nicer than our cars, and I've got two XR7's. They feel like a mustang with a little weight. I've had 2 mn12's, and a 94' GT, and an 04' mach1. Ok, maybe they don't handle like my mach1 did, but they feel allot like the 90's stangs on the road.
I've had a Fox body T-Bird, two Fairmont Futuras and one four door Fairmont. They are a nice car no doubt about it. However........for ride comfort, quiet, handling , options and fit and finish.....the MN-12 gets the nod.
Not a snub to the Fox body, it's just that the MN-12 is a better car to me.
i agree they are nice and mechanically sound. the interior on the other hand is junk. they literally fall apart inside. where my foxes have wear and tear but still look better after 20 yrs than a 10 yo mn-12 interior. the plastic cracks and breaks too easily. but they are a good looking car.
Must be just the American cars that are junk inside. I have never had any parts break in any of my mn12's
I have to say I have never seen the interior of ANY MN-12 fall apart.
The cheap door panels in a Fox body pull loose or tear, stitching on sun visors or carpet wear our fast yes.
My Super Coupe is a 92' and has no damage to the interior, except the shift is worn (it's a five speed).
I've been driving, racing and rebuilding Fords since 1968.
Poor quality MN-12 interiors?, never seen one.
If you treat any car like , that's what you'll see.
Missed the recalls and TSB's then huh? Ever ridden in a car with a real interior? The MN12's weak point (other then being a hevey, heavy hippo) is the absolutely disgraceful interior. Maybe it's only the later ones as I only have experience with 96/97's, but they were . We had the 97 brand new and it rattled like a dozen pebbles and one 1/2" bolt in a coffee can.
The RIDE is good, but the HANDLING is sub-par. WAY too cushy to be "performance oriented" for me (I'm talking V8 96/97's, never ridden in a SC because I've never seen a running one in my life). Very comfortable cruiser. If you could put a decent interior in it they'd make a good road-trip car.
I see SC's roaming the streets of Ohio every single day.
The interior in my '91 fell apart, and I babied that car. The inner door panel actually came right off once while pulling the door closed, then got jammed in between the door and the jamb. The shifter looked like hell because the little things in the shifter slot all broke and fell out. The driver's seat wore through (granted this is a big problem in Foxes, indeed any Ford). The tabs that hold the knee bolster in place broke, so I had to replace it. The panels covering the rear seat speakers constantly fell out on both sides. Luckily MN12's were easy to find parts for.
One thing I will give the MN12's is that their body structure is light years ahead of the Fox platform. Rust problems aside, the MN12 unibody is much, much stiffer than the Fox (probably why it weighed so much more), and combined with the IRS and superior front suspension design I did find that my '91 MN12 handled better than the '85 'Bird I traded in on it. The best handling Fox car I had up until my much-modded (suspension wise) '88, was the '87 Sport. It felt more nimble than the '91, but it also felt like it wouldn't take much to upset it. The only real handling problem the '91 had, other than wearing out very expensive suspension parts, was that with its open differential it had absolutely no traction. I could spin that one wheel on a whim :hick:
It's too bad Ford didn't develop a platform with the best traits of both the Fox (relatively light weight) with the stiffness and better suspension of the MN12...
We just have to make it ourselves:hick:
Both mn12's we had were both used, and both were excellent cars. Inside and out. Of course not every car is made as it was originaly intended.
It's too bad Ford didn't develop a platform with the best traits of both the Fox (relatively light weight) with the stiffness and better suspension of the MN12...[/QUOTE]
they did its called the 03-04 cobra
03 Cobra has just as much cowl shake as a 79 Mustang.
yeah but they look better doing it.
Point.